Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
I've got/had all three. I think the 103 is better in a 124 body. The SDL is the world's most wonderful car. The 123 with a OM 616/617 is very reliable and inexpensive to operate. I'd RUN FAST away from a recently welded head. Unless you have a good head and don't mind changing it. At 12:04 PM 9/21/2007, you wrote: Gang, Recently transferred from Toronto to the SF Bay area for a couple of years. I'm trying to control myself as I look at all the car candy on craigslist and in local dealer lots. Although I am an MB diesel nutter, I have been tempted by the straight-6 300SE/L W126 machines. They seem to be plentiful and cheap. So far I've stuck to OM617 engines, and in fact to W123 models because they are simple and indestructible. Since my focus for the last 10+ years has been on diesel engines, I've not really paid attention to gassers, but it seems like the M103 engine is pretty good. I lust after a 300SDL (except the 3.5, obviously), but I'm afraid of all the trouble people seem to have with the OM603 engines, especially head cracks, failing tensioners, and engine management issues. I was talking to someone this a.m. who was selling an SDL. 170k.mi, $6k. The engine had overheated and a machine shop welded the head etc. Almost no mileage since the rebuild. I presume this approach will not last, and that there is trouble waiting in the wings on that car... So what's the deal? Is the M103 a good machine (as good as the venerable M110), or am I just as well with an OM603.961? D. PS: For torture, look at pics of the stunningly gorgeous W116 for sale on http://www.misterdiesel.com If only I could afford it... -- David Bruckmann, Palo Alto, CA Current Reality: 1970 Citroen DS21 Pallas (170,000 km) Goettin 1976 Citroen 2CV6 (145,000 km) Piaf http://dolly.bruckmann.com/ Shady Past: 1971 Citroen DS21 Pallas (137,000km), 1972 Citroen DS21 Pallas (502,000km) 1978 Mercedes-Benz 300D (1,200,000 km or thereabouts) Sieglinde 1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD non-turbo (260,000 km) Diva 1981 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston (120,000km), 1988 Merkur XR4Ti (209,000km) 1981 Peugeot 505 GRD (350,000km), 1984 MB 300TD (385,000 km) Gertraud 1985 Toyota Camry The Slamry (330,000km) 1986 Renault 9 1.7L (155,000 km) 2002 VW Golf GLS TDI (74,000 km) -- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
OK Don wrote: Having owned both 617 and 603 cars, I far prefer the 603. It's a much nicer engine - smoother and quieter. By at least one estimate, must of the heads that are going to crack, have already. Mine has over 300,000 miles, original #14 head, is still strong, and no cracks (yet) (knocking on wood as I type this). I love the SDL - Fewer than 25% of the #14 heads have cracked (despite all the heads brought to the US in '86-'87 being flawed - redesigned in '89). The trap oxidizer was implicated in the head failures based on the fact that most junked 126s and 124s that were equipped with traps also sported cracked heads while the '86 126s without traps (Fed certified, but NOT Calif certified) seldom exhibited head cracks. 603 engined cars that are largely highway driven seldom exhibit head cracks provided they are rarely (and only briefly) overheated, while cars that spent a lot of time in stop and go city traffic seem to have higher than average head cracking problems. My own 603.96 engine with 180+ kmi has no head cracking symptoms. The 603.96 powered 124 and 126s are smoth, wonderful cars to drive and are NOT difficult to maintain, but they have very different maintenance issues than cars powered by 617.95 engines. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
Nice but breathless, lousy milage from too small an engine. The SDL is a better buy IF it has a new head. I've never heard of anyone successfully welding those up. New head will be good for about 300,000 more miles. Peter I had a 300sd and 300e and side by side and in daily driving preferred the performance of the sd. If you have any hills, the 617 pulls better. For the same peformance the 103 is shifting more often to get into a powerband that isn't that great to begin with- and this is in a 124 chassis car. The 126 is heavier, but not by a huge amount. 420's and 560's can be had for dirt cheap now, and the mileage difference isn't great. Tony Wirtel ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
Having owned both 617 and 603 cars, I far prefer the 603. It's a much nicer engine - smoother and quieter. By at least one estimate, must of the heads that are going to crack, have already. Mine has over 300,000 miles, original #14 head, is still strong, and no cracks (yet) (knocking on wood as I type this). I love the SDL - The SDL is a better buy IF it has a new head. I've never heard of anyone successfully welding those up. New head will be good for about 300,000 more miles. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
Gang, Recently transferred from Toronto to the SF Bay area for a couple of years. I'm trying to control myself as I look at all the car candy on craigslist and in local dealer lots. Although I am an MB diesel nutter, I have been tempted by the straight-6 300SE/L W126 machines. They seem to be plentiful and cheap. So far I've stuck to OM617 engines, and in fact to W123 models because they are simple and indestructible. Since my focus for the last 10+ years has been on diesel engines, I've not really paid attention to gassers, but it seems like the M103 engine is pretty good. I lust after a 300SDL (except the 3.5, obviously), but I'm afraid of all the trouble people seem to have with the OM603 engines, especially head cracks, failing tensioners, and engine management issues. I was talking to someone this a.m. who was selling an SDL. 170k.mi, $6k. The engine had overheated and a machine shop welded the head etc. Almost no mileage since the rebuild. I presume this approach will not last, and that there is trouble waiting in the wings on that car... So what's the deal? Is the M103 a good machine (as good as the venerable M110), or am I just as well with an OM603.961? D. PS: For torture, look at pics of the stunningly gorgeous W116 for sale on http://www.misterdiesel.com If only I could afford it... -- David Bruckmann, Palo Alto, CA Current Reality: 1970 Citroen DS21 Pallas (170,000 km) Goettin 1976 Citroen 2CV6 (145,000 km) Piaf http://dolly.bruckmann.com/ Shady Past: 1971 Citroen DS21 Pallas (137,000km), 1972 Citroen DS21 Pallas (502,000km) 1978 Mercedes-Benz 300D (1,200,000 km or thereabouts) Sieglinde 1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD non-turbo (260,000 km) Diva 1981 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston (120,000km), 1988 Merkur XR4Ti (209,000km) 1981 Peugeot 505 GRD (350,000km), 1984 MB 300TD (385,000 km) Gertraud 1985 Toyota Camry The Slamry (330,000km) 1986 Renault 9 1.7L (155,000 km) 2002 VW Golf GLS TDI (74,000 km) -- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
David Bruckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So what's the deal? Is the M103 a good machine (as good as the venerable M110), or am I just as well with an OM603.961? I've heard it is. Valve stem seals may be an issue. I don't have any firsthand experience though. PS: For torture, look at pics of the stunningly gorgeous W116 for sale on http://www.misterdiesel.com If only I could afford it... $18,500!?! he's insane. -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
Nice but breathless, lousy milage from too small an engine. The SDL is a better buy IF it has a new head. I've never heard of anyone successfully welding those up. New head will be good for about 300,000 more miles. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
Hi, All, David Allan. The 260E ( 198Kmi.) M103.960, that was given to me with 5 cyl. is now running smooth and quiet on all six and burns no oil (M1 15W50) Problem was #6 cyl. had a burnt exh valve. Also found that both sets of guides were very worn, all exh. valves had a groove around the sealing face, about 8 to 10 thou. Replaced. All of the valve stem oil seals were akin to cheap plastic. The rear oil feed to the valve assy. was properly sealed, I checked because it is a known leaker, either into the water or out the pass. rear of the head. Only real difficulty was getting the air intake support brackets back on. (Grumble grumble, gettin' too old for this sh-tuff.) YMMV Fred Moir But it's NOT a Diesel! Allan Streib [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Bruckmann writes: So what's the deal? Is the M103 a good machine (as good as the venerable M110), or am I just as well with an OM603.961? I've heard it is. Valve stem seals may be an issue. I don't have any firsthand experience though. - Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
anybody want to give me a quick walk though of changing valve guides and also the stem seals?? I'm sure mine are about due wiht 340,000 on them. :-) Have an idea about the stem seals, but would like to hear all tips? Never did valve guides and not even sure it's a do it your self job? Willing to give it a shot if there is anyway to do it. :-) Thanks in advance, Ed 300E On 21/09/2007, Frederick Moir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, All, David Allan. The 260E ( 198Kmi.) M103.960, that was given to me with 5 cyl. is now running smooth and quiet on all six and burns no oil (M1 15W50) Problem was #6 cyl. had a burnt exh valve. Also found that both sets of guides were very worn, all exh. valves had a groove around the sealing face, about 8 to 10 thou. Replaced. All of the valve stem oil seals were akin to cheap plastic. The rear oil feed to the valve assy. was properly sealed, I checked because it is a known leaker, either into the water or out the pass. rear of the head. Only real difficulty was getting the air intake support brackets back on. (Grumble grumble, gettin' too old for this sh-tuff.) YMMV Fred Moir But it's NOT a Diesel! Allan Streib [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Bruckmann writes: So what's the deal? Is the M103 a good machine (as good as the venerable M110), or am I just as well with an OM603.961? I've heard it is. Valve stem seals may be an issue. I don't have any firsthand experience though. - Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] M103 vs OM603 vs OM617: Help me decide
Ed. Valve guides are replaced with the head off. It is theoretically possible to pull the guides with out removing the head but most likely the valve seats will be worn and would no longer be concentric with the valves and guides. The guides are driven in and usually have to be reamed. Replacing the seals is just tedious not difficult. Remove spark plug, inject air pressure via an adapter to keep the valve hard against the seat. If you can balance the piston that you are working on at TDC it may help stop the valve from falling into the engine should the air pressure fail. (BTDT) remove valve gear at the cyl. that you are working on only (rocker etc.) use an external valve spring compressor ( hooks under the cam and pushes down on the valve spring ) remove keepers (use pencil magnet) gently release compressor and take off the spring. Pull out the seal, check for debris around the valve guide, use the seal protector, ( clear tube supplied with VSOS kit) and put a smear of engine oil around the seal lip and press on. Hand pressure against a deep socket with extension works for me. Curse a bit as you wrestle the seal protector off Replace spring, compress and install keepers. Do the other valve in that pair. Repeat. As we say in Yinglant, Rotsa Ruck! All you genii please add you comments, condemnations and insults. Fred Moir Lynn MA Dieselitis Maximus ( With a little gas on the side) E M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: anybody want to give me a quick walk though of changing valve guides and also the stem seals?? I'm sure mine are about due with 340,000 on them. Ed 300E - Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
