Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Don't forget those who never left the States, got the GI bill, went to college, paid the bright youngsters to do their homework, cried over having to take the tests, graduated (barely), and expected to be handed a high paying job (never got it), and are now filling the halls of the VA hospitals getting free medical care. I figure we way over paid for that. I have no problem with those how saw combat - we can't do enogh for them. But to do the same for everyone who ended up in the armed service? May his noodly appendage do a little more than touch! On 1/16/07, Redghost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At least those who were able to succeed on government largesse in our generation with GI Bill, had to dodge bullets or maybe put lives on the line. I figure the gummint got off easy on that debt. And some even brought home a tri star when returning from deployment. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Clay, if you ever run across an ill that you cannot blame on minorities, please immediately post that information to the list. It would be very informative. Most problems can be blamed on a minority. Fortunately, good people still outnumber the f***ing idiots, but I wonder for how much longer? -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
You wrote:I suspect there are too many under-qualified people being allowed into colleges. I read somewhere recently that something like 75% of Freshmen had to take remedial English, Math and other courses before they could proceed with college level classes - the material offered in HS is inefficient. And the students are not aware of the level of effort reqired in college - well, the way college used to be., I wish I could find it again - a while back I saw an 8th grade proficiency exam from 1908 or so - I graduated HS in 1968 and most of those questions were way over my head I'm sorry to say. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Redghost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota On the issue of quantity of humanities v. engineering graduates, I suspect there are too many under-qualified people being allowed into colleges. When you actually had to pay for the education, you had a better quality student entering. Now any idiot that can claim some affiliation with a minority group supported by an entitlement program gets a free education. If these people were employed in manufacturing jobs, maybe the quality would go up, because the more qualified would be educated either on the job, or through a business degree. On Jan 14, 2007, at 12:06 PM, LarryT wrote: you wrote:most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts Hmmm, I wonder if that is because of the low # of engineering/scientist our colleges are turning out? Along with a high # of Liberal Arts degrees forcing a glut on the market - so a company that is looking for a Bachelors degree holder must accept whatever comse in the door? While the US still leads the world in most areas I gotta wonder how long we can keep that position while putting square pegs into round holes? Those managers can do an amazing amount of damage to morale and the product. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota The US plants have American managers. If they are like the ones I have currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they can turn any set of parts into junk. The notion that if you know how to do it you are prohibited from managing it seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that counts is daily cash savings. Actual knowledge appears to disqualify one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts. Naturally, you get lousy product as a result. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release Date: 1/13/2007 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/631 - Release Date: 1/16/2007
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
On the issue of quantity of humanities v. engineering graduates, I suspect there are too many under-qualified people being allowed into colleges. When you actually had to pay for the education, you had a better quality student entering. Now any idiot that can claim some affiliation with a minority group supported by an entitlement program gets a free education. If these people were employed in manufacturing jobs, maybe the quality would go up, because the more qualified would be educated either on the job, or through a business degree. On Jan 14, 2007, at 12:06 PM, LarryT wrote: you wrote:most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts Hmmm, I wonder if that is because of the low # of engineering/scientist our colleges are turning out? Along with a high # of Liberal Arts degrees forcing a glut on the market - so a company that is looking for a Bachelors degree holder must accept whatever comse in the door? While the US still leads the world in most areas I gotta wonder how long we can keep that position while putting square pegs into round holes? Those managers can do an amazing amount of damage to morale and the product. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota The US plants have American managers. If they are like the ones I have currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they can turn any set of parts into junk. The notion that if you know how to do it you are prohibited from managing it seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that counts is daily cash savings. Actual knowledge appears to disqualify one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts. Naturally, you get lousy product as a result. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release Date: 1/13/2007 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Clay, if you ever run across an ill that you cannot blame on minorities, please immediately post that information to the list. It would be very informative. Chris K Cayce, SC The esteemed Clay stated: Now any idiot that can claim some affiliation with a minority group supported by an entitlement program gets a free education.
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Chris mentioned: Clay, if you ever run across an ill that you cannot blame on minorities, please immediately post that information to the list. It would be very informative. I think that was a sweepingly broad comment about abuse of any program or idea that was, initially, good. Bob Rwho is struggling with the fact that there are college aged kids who entered my country illeaglly who are whining that they don't get enough free money and grantswhile I work my arse off and can barely afford to send my kids to that same school.
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Will gladly assist. Much of the trouble with the lack of sufficient diesel benz on the road is thoroughly due to those minorities wanting to purchase gas guzzling soccer mom haulers. Get rid of that segment of wasted dollars and we will see and upsurge in the demand for Diesel Benz. That, and the increase in pirates. Sure to combat global warming. His noodly appendage touches all On Jan 16, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Chris Kueny wrote: Clay, if you ever run across an ill that you cannot blame on minorities, please immediately post that information to the list. It would be very informative. Chris K Cayce, SC The esteemed Clay stated: Now any idiot that can claim some affiliation with a minority group supported by an entitlement program gets a free education. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
At least those who were able to succeed on government largesse in our generation with GI Bill, had to dodge bullets or maybe put lives on the line. I figure the gummint got off easy on that debt. And some even brought home a tri star when returning from deployment. On Jan 16, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Bob Rentfro wrote: Chris mentioned: Clay, if you ever run across an ill that you cannot blame on minorities, please immediately post that information to the list. It would be very informative. I think that was a sweepingly broad comment about abuse of any program or idea that was, initially, good. Bob Rwho is struggling with the fact that there are college aged kids who entered my country illeaglly who are whining that they don't get enough free money and grantswhile I work my arse off and can barely afford to send my kids to that same school. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Yep, I remember hearing about Six Sigma - I was a contract employee for 13+ years (we're going to make you a direct offer as soon as the census opens up - lol - never happened) I had 30 years experience but they decided to go in a different direction but, they still liked my work oh well - worse things have happened. Actually there were some bright spots - some engineers who had been there for years were going to MBA school at night - they might actually make some improvements. But I doubt it - they'll get frustrated and find a better job elsewhere. It was comical after a while - spending 8 hours in a class with free lunch (remember, there is no free lunch) then being asked to put a little model boat together. Without instrictions, they found we did it wrong - or at least not the way they were looking for. I'm kinda glad I'm out of there. ;-) Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota Sadly Larry, it's worse. The company I work as contract for is now back to lean manufacturing (aka cut costs any way you can, reguardless of the results) from Six Sigma. Neither system will do anything but fix operations that actually MAKE something (plastic, ball bearings, fittings, parts, etc.). NONE of the statistical process control tools have any other applications, and I've yet to see them applied to anything but people's behavior, the one thing that statistical process control tools will not ever help with. The old MBA was intended for management tool training for well experienced people as they moved beyond the immediate job supervision point, and in the old days if you didn't have 10 years of low level supervisory or direct manufacturing experience, you could not get into the program. Today, it's all about three piece suit and pseudo-statistical mumbo-jumbo with some odd ends of statistics tossed in (and yes, so far as I know, all the business cases are still made up). My brother took a manufacturing management course a few years back as part of his associates in manufacturing engineering, and they were having the students average the time it took for machine tools to perform sequential operations in order to find the mean process time. Utter and complete bafflegab, the mean time is the process that takes the longest, as it won't change. Complete disassociation of statistical math from statistical theory.. The current MBA isn't worth the paper it's printed on, if you ask me. There doesn't seem to be any requirement that the recipients of said degree APPLY any of the stuff I know is in the textbooks! Or as my sister says these days, human nature, what are you going to do? Makes me so mad I could spit -- I've given up trying to explain anything to my current boss, she just turns to the high school graduate and asks him and blows me off. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release Date: 1/13/2007
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Sorry, as you know, it should have said pictograms! hehe...fingers faster than bran Jeff Zedic London
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Tell me about it. I worked in IT as a tech. They hired this lady as a tech. She literally was not good at her job and didn't know how to do most of it. She was promoted to manager. The absolute best story I heard told was from a friend who was apparently telling her about their new central vacuum they had installed at their house. The first question this manager had? What do you do when the walls get full? Priceless. Levi This thought process was made ever more present to me when during heavy layoffs they laid off approximately 1/3 of the IT technicians(you know the ones that did the work and were paid the least) and kept every single manager there. On 1/14/07, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The US plants have American managers. If they are like the ones I have currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they can turn any set of parts into junk. The notion that if you know how to do it you are prohibited from managing it seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that counts is daily cash savings. Actual knowledge appears to disqualify one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts. Naturally, you get lousy product as a result. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Sorry, as you know, it should have said pictograms! hehe...fingers faster than bran Hey, bran works plenty fast on me! :-) -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
This misogynistic tale is probably apochryphal, sounding instead like a modified blonde joke. On 1/15/07, Levi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tell me about it. I worked in IT as a tech. They hired this lady as a tech. She literally was not good at her job and didn't know how to do most of it. She was promoted to manager. The absolute best story I heard told was from a friend who was apparently telling her about their new central vacuum they had installed at their house. The first question this manager had? What do you do when the walls get full? Priceless. Levi This thought process was made ever more present to me when during heavy layoffs they laid off approximately 1/3 of the IT technicians(you know the ones that did the work and were paid the least) and kept every single manager there. On 1/14/07, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The US plants have American managers. If they are like the ones I have currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they can turn any set of parts into junk. The notion that if you know how to do it you are prohibited from managing it seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that counts is daily cash savings. Actual knowledge appears to disqualify one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts. Naturally, you get lousy product as a result. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
It probably is. I was going to mention that she was in fact a blonde, but decided to leave it out. I guess sometimes there's a reason that stereotype exists. (: Levi On 1/15/07, andrew strasfogel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This misogynistic tale is probably apochryphal, sounding instead like a modified blonde joke. On 1/15/07, Levi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tell me about it. I worked in IT as a tech. They hired this lady as a tech. She literally was not good at her job and didn't know how to do most of it. She was promoted to manager. The absolute best story I heard told was from a friend who was apparently telling her about their new central vacuum they had installed at their house. The first question this manager had? What do you do when the walls get full? Priceless. Levi This thought process was made ever more present to me when during heavy layoffs they laid off approximately 1/3 of the IT technicians(you know the ones that did the work and were paid the least) and kept every single manager there. On 1/14/07, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The US plants have American managers. If they are like the ones I have currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they can turn any set of parts into junk. The notion that if you know how to do it you are prohibited from managing it seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that counts is daily cash savings. Actual knowledge appears to disqualify one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts. Naturally, you get lousy product as a result. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was assigned when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D]. When I first took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service manager a list of items that were causing me concern [can't remember the list anymore] his first comment was that mine must be a US manufactured car. He then checked the VIN and confirmed that it did indeed come from a plant here. I assume US/Japan plants used the same parts, or parts made here using the same specs [anybody know about that?], so the difference was where it was put together. I'd not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished product seems to have been different depending mostly on where it was put together. BillR Jacksonville FL 1981 300SD 283k miles -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:38 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in Japanese QC vs German QC. The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars, and try like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a way to fix the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore. Have I got that right? Maybe more of an asian thing rather than just Japanese, 20 years ago when we had some contract manufacturing done in Taiwan I was sent over to look at the initial production. As the designing engineer I was able to look at what they'd made. (Which was, at that time, exactly what we would have built locally.) They had a pile of bad units stacked to one side, and I was going through them one by one. I'm sure they were worried that there was a systematic problem, but each one was just normal (in my book) fallout. Every one had something different wrong with it, and nothing caused me any particular worry. I vividly remember one instance where I determined that there was a bad PAL device, and according to my practice I just popped it out of its socket and smashed it, so that a bad one wouldn't be mistaken for good. A minor commotion ensued, one of their engineers grabbed it up and ran off with it, carrying it like it was a valuable and delicate item. Or a sick pet. I don't think I'd want to have been whomever was responsible for programming it. I'm sure they wanted to chase down _exactly_ what was wrong with it to see if there was some part of the process to fix. I kind of doubt that China, however, is exhibiting this type of trait. In my mind they are more cowboys than that, and in a way more like us. But I could be wrong. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Similar differences in quality were/are noted in Mexican vs. German assembled Volkswagens, and also to the US assembled ones (Rabbits I think) when they had a plant in Westmoreland PA. For example I have been told if you are going to buy a Golf, get the GTI they are still made in Germany (I don't know if that's still true, btw). You would *think* the same parts, assembly processes, training, and standards would be used in all locations, yet somehow there are differences in the results. Billr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was assigned when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D]. When I first took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service manager a list of items that were causing me concern [can't remember the list anymore] his first comment was that mine must be a US manufactured car. He then checked the VIN and confirmed that it did indeed come from a plant here. I assume US/Japan plants used the same parts, or parts made here using the same specs [anybody know about that?], so the difference was where it was put together. I'd not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished product seems to have been different depending mostly on where it was put together. BillR Jacksonville FL 1981 300SD 283k miles -- 1983 300D 1966 230
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
The US plants have American managers. If they are like the ones I have currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they can turn any set of parts into junk. The notion that if you know how to do it you are prohibited from managing it seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that counts is daily cash savings. Actual knowledge appears to disqualify one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts. Naturally, you get lousy product as a result. Peter
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
I noticed in the most recent years Toyota has taken a long hard look at the quality of their US built cars. I know someone who was a dedicated carrier for the Toyota plant in Indiana and he mentioned that they often send more shipments of parts and supplies back then they accept. He mentioned that many times they will look into the truck trailers and if something wasn't wrapped, stacked or even loaded properly they slam the doors and send it back refused without even examining the product. He said alot of the drivers got frustrated because they were so picky and had to return with the same load. A few times they even had to wait for hours if there was any delivery that looked iffy before they could leave. Sometimes they kept it and somethimes they sent it back. Harry 69 280 SEL 135,000 Miles 72 350SL 118,000 Miles 2004 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 5:47 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was assigned when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D]. When I first took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service manager a list of items that were causing me concern [can't remember the list anymore] his first comment was that mine must be a US manufactured car. He then checked the VIN and confirmed that it did indeed come from a plant here. I assume US/Japan plants used the same parts, or parts made here using the same specs [anybody know about that?], so the difference was where it was put together. I'd not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished product seems to have been different depending mostly on where it was put together. BillR Jacksonville FL 1981 300SD 283k miles -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:38 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in Japanese QC vs German QC. The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars, and try like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a way to fix the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore. Have I got that right? Maybe more of an asian thing rather than just Japanese, 20 years ago when we had some contract manufacturing done in Taiwan I was sent over to look at the initial production. As the designing engineer I was able to look at what they'd made. (Which was, at that time, exactly what we would have built locally.) They had a pile of bad units stacked to one side, and I was going through them one by one. I'm sure they were worried that there was a systematic problem, but each one was just normal (in my book) fallout. Every one had something different wrong with it, and nothing caused me any particular worry. I vividly remember one instance where I determined that there was a bad PAL device, and according to my practice I just popped it out of its socket and smashed it, so that a bad one wouldn't be mistaken for good. A minor commotion ensued, one of their engineers grabbed it up and ran off with it, carrying it like it was a valuable and delicate item. Or a sick pet. I don't think I'd want to have been whomever was responsible for programming it. I'm sure they wanted to chase down _exactly_ what was wrong with it to see if there was some part of the process to fix. I kind of doubt that China, however, is exhibiting this type of trait. In my mind they are more cowboys than that, and in a way more like us. But I could be wrong. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
The GTI was built in Germany, but some of the parts came from Austria and the US. I do believe the diesel engine cars.. Jetta, Golf and Rabbitt were also German built Harry 69 280 SEL 135,000 Miles 72 350SL 118,000 Miles 2004 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota Similar differences in quality were/are noted in Mexican vs. German assembled Volkswagens, and also to the US assembled ones (Rabbits I think) when they had a plant in Westmoreland PA. For example I have been told if you are going to buy a Golf, get the GTI they are still made in Germany (I don't know if that's still true, btw). You would *think* the same parts, assembly processes, training, and standards would be used in all locations, yet somehow there are differences in the results. Billr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was assigned when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D]. When I first took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service manager a list of items that were causing me concern [can't remember the list anymore] his first comment was that mine must be a US manufactured car. He then checked the VIN and confirmed that it did indeed come from a plant here. I assume US/Japan plants used the same parts, or parts made here using the same specs [anybody know about that?], so the difference was where it was put together. I'd not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished product seems to have been different depending mostly on where it was put together. BillR Jacksonville FL 1981 300SD 283k miles -- 1983 300D 1966 230 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Yep, my 1999 Camry had a J in the VIN # indicating it was assembled in Japan. It was a part of the advertising when I sold it to buy the 91 300D ;-) Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Billr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota My story was based on a company Corolla, probably a 1992 that I was assigned when I hired on in 1994 [I let the wife have my '75 240D]. When I first took the car to the Toyota dealer and gave the service manager a list of items that were causing me concern [can't remember the list anymore] his first comment was that mine must be a US manufactured car. He then checked the VIN and confirmed that it did indeed come from a plant here. I assume US/Japan plants used the same parts, or parts made here using the same specs [anybody know about that?], so the difference was where it was put together. I'd not want to start a thread on work habits [willingness to do a mind-numbing job day after day] or cultural values, but the finished product seems to have been different depending mostly on where it was put together. BillR Jacksonville FL 1981 300SD 283k miles -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:38 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality Somebody who knows more than me should point out the difference in Japanese QC vs German QC. The Germans accept a certain amount of bad cars, and try like heck to catch them and fix them before shipping them, while the Japanese see any bad car as a problem in the process, and find a way to fix the process so that problem just doesn't happen anymore. Have I got that right? Maybe more of an asian thing rather than just Japanese, 20 years ago when we had some contract manufacturing done in Taiwan I was sent over to look at the initial production. As the designing engineer I was able to look at what they'd made. (Which was, at that time, exactly what we would have built locally.) They had a pile of bad units stacked to one side, and I was going through them one by one. I'm sure they were worried that there was a systematic problem, but each one was just normal (in my book) fallout. Every one had something different wrong with it, and nothing caused me any particular worry. I vividly remember one instance where I determined that there was a bad PAL device, and according to my practice I just popped it out of its socket and smashed it, so that a bad one wouldn't be mistaken for good. A minor commotion ensued, one of their engineers grabbed it up and ran off with it, carrying it like it was a valuable and delicate item. Or a sick pet. I don't think I'd want to have been whomever was responsible for programming it. I'm sure they wanted to chase down _exactly_ what was wrong with it to see if there was some part of the process to fix. I kind of doubt that China, however, is exhibiting this type of trait. In my mind they are more cowboys than that, and in a way more like us. But I could be wrong. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release Date: 1/13/2007
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
you wrote:most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts Hmmm, I wonder if that is because of the low # of engineering/scientist our colleges are turning out? Along with a high # of Liberal Arts degrees forcing a glut on the market - so a company that is looking for a Bachelors degree holder must accept whatever comse in the door? While the US still leads the world in most areas I gotta wonder how long we can keep that position while putting square pegs into round holes? Those managers can do an amazing amount of damage to morale and the product. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota The US plants have American managers. If they are like the ones I have currently at my current job (major US company as a contractor), they can turn any set of parts into junk. The notion that if you know how to do it you are prohibited from managing it seems to be universal in the US -- the only thing that counts is daily cash savings. Actual knowledge appears to disqualify one to manage anything -- most of my current managers (in a materials supply industry) have degrees in Liberal Arts. Naturally, you get lousy product as a result. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release Date: 1/13/2007
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Nope. A degree in science or engineering disqualifies one to be management -- too close to the work. You must have independent thinking skills and be able to blow the current psuedo-scientific smoke, whatever brand it is these days. If you know how things actually work, you won't be able to make critical decisions (i.e. cut costs at whatever expense). Sad but true. How many CEOs and upper management these days have degrees in English? More than you would think, it's ballyhooed at universities as the road to success! Peter
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Peter wrote: many CEOs and upper management these days have degrees in English Frightening. Before I left the corporate world I saw the requirement for MBAs becoming more and more ingrained into almost all positions being advertised for. From cost (reasonable) to engineering (not reasonable) they were wanting MBAs into *everything*. Of course, I was there when we spent literally 1000s of manhours training *everyone* in the various guises of TQ. TQS, TQL, TQM, and on and on - followed by Black Belts, and probably a whole range of acronyms since I left that world on disability. I was at a Tech Center for a major chemical/fibers company - we did RD and pilot plants before commercialization - and the whole freaking organization was sent to 3 5 full day training exercizes. While we were being told over and over that for any change to be an improvement it had to be measurable, I wonder what metrics they put on that training to justify the expense? Oh well - sure seems like a long time ago - 8 years. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota Nope. A degree in science or engineering disqualifies one to be management -- too close to the work. You must have independent thinking skills and be able to blow the current psuedo-scientific smoke, whatever brand it is these days. If you know how things actually work, you won't be able to make critical decisions (i.e. cut costs at whatever expense). Sad but true. How many CEOs and upper management these days have degrees in English? More than you would think, it's ballyhooed at universities as the road to success! Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release Date: 1/13/2007
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
It's a QC issue, if the shipping folks of company A can't met the shipping QC specs which might be there because the robots like to have consistence when they remove things from pallets then why should they think the product made by company 'A' will met the standards either. Reminds me of a story where a famous rock band always had in their contract and site setup plans to the venue, that jelly beans of a certain type/flavor had to be in the dressing room. If not then contract was canceled. Why? Well the band's stage manager believe if the venue couldn't read the contract and perform that simple task and ensure it was done, then why should the band then think other stuff like the specs for hanging lamps, providing electrical power, crowd control etc. was done properly too... I believe they walked a few times, he didn't need to know if the lamps were hung correctly, no jelly beans, we're out of here... On Jan 14, 2007, at 10:56 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I noticed in the most recent years Toyota has taken a long hard look at the quality of their US built cars. I know someone who was a dedicated carrier for the Toyota plant in Indiana and he mentioned that they often send more shipments of parts and supplies back then they accept. He mentioned that many times they will look into the truck trailers and if something wasn't wrapped, stacked or even loaded properly they slam the doors and send it back refused without even examining the product. He said alot of the drivers got frustrated because they were so picky and had to return with the same load. A few times they even had to wait for hours if there was any delivery that looked iffy before they could leave. Sometimes they kept it and somethimes they sent it back. Harry 69 280 SEL 135,000 Miles 72 350SL 118,000 Miles 2004 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata John 1983 300TDt 374k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1990's 300TDt 184k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac) 1993 500SEL 186k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
I enjoy these threads about Japan vs Germny vs US. Yes, there were more problems with the US built Toyotas. (Some may remember I worked for Toyota for 13 years) A Japanese built car had a JT2 or JT1 VIN whilst the US made were 1T1. Canadian made were 2T1 and ranked almost as high as the JT2 cars. The labour force was a problem for the company. I recall finding out from my head office colleagues that the Camry plant in Georgetown KT and the other plant farther south, can't remember where (Alabama?), required the use of picograms to train staff as they couldn't find enough peope that could read English! They also has to do mandatory drug testing on all potential employees. This was NOT an article in the paper, this was internal memo information. Also, the Japanese encouraged their employees to suggest enhancements to the assembly process and used approx 90% of the suggestions. The average Jap worker gave 10 suggestions per year. Growing up in a GM town I saw the difference. The average GM worker was seldom listened tomaybe 1 suggestion per year and 10% were used. Also, the Chevy Nova owers that dared to try getting the car repaired at a Chevy dealer were sent to Toyota who knew nothing of the car! Jeff Zedic London
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
Sadly Larry, it's worse. The company I work as contract for is now back to lean manufacturing (aka cut costs any way you can, reguardless of the results) from Six Sigma. Neither system will do anything but fix operations that actually MAKE something (plastic, ball bearings, fittings, parts, etc.). NONE of the statistical process control tools have any other applications, and I've yet to see them applied to anything but people's behavior, the one thing that statistical process control tools will not ever help with. The old MBA was intended for management tool training for well experienced people as they moved beyond the immediate job supervision point, and in the old days if you didn't have 10 years of low level supervisory or direct manufacturing experience, you could not get into the program. Today, it's all about three piece suit and pseudo-statistical mumbo-jumbo with some odd ends of statistics tossed in (and yes, so far as I know, all the business cases are still made up). My brother took a manufacturing management course a few years back as part of his associates in manufacturing engineering, and they were having the students average the time it took for machine tools to perform sequential operations in order to find the mean process time. Utter and complete bafflegab, the mean time is the process that takes the longest, as it won't change. Complete disassociation of statistical math from statistical theory.. The current MBA isn't worth the paper it's printed on, if you ask me. There doesn't seem to be any requirement that the recipients of said degree APPLY any of the stuff I know is in the textbooks! Or as my sister says these days, human nature, what are you going to do? Makes me so mad I could spit -- I've given up trying to explain anything to my current boss, she just turns to the high school graduate and asks him and blows me off. Peter
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
...required the use of picograms to train staff...mandatory drug testing Must have been some powerful stuff, if picograms were all that were required! -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Quality vs Toyota
I don't know if that is true, but I worked for a promoter in Evansville, and made a couple short notice trips to get the correct bottle of wine for the performers --- they did have good taste, by the way! I heard stories about the jelly beans and taking all the red MMs out of a bowl full. I'm inclined to believe your interpretation -- sure saves lots of trouble. It's lots of fun to set up a major concert on an outdoor stage covered with recent rainwater Quite rightly, Toyota will reject a whole shipping lot for anything incorrect. If it's not packaged correctly, likely the parts aren't right, too, and they refuse to spend time fishing out the good from the bad. Their contract specifies all good parts, not kinda sorta. I can tell you some stories about a local electrical/electronics parts firm (now gone, of course) and the fits they had with subcontractors -- rather than fix their machinery to produce good parts, they'd keep sending the bad ones in in the hopes they would get accepted (this must be a British thing, as they found out during WWI that most of the big ship shells were duds -- if 1% of them didn't explode properly, the lot was rejected, but there were no rules about submitting more shells from that lot, so the maker just kept sending more until they passed. Result, of course, was that in action, particularly Jutland, about half were the equivalent of shooting scrap iron). I don't think there is anything more irritating that having someone's eyes glaze over when you are trying to explain something they are responsible for to them Peter
