Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Hit the delete button, thats what its for. As far as clogging up your box, this thread has been a very small part of the overall list traffic. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730 FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset Nothing personal here guys, but what does?this have to do with Mercedes? Just inquiring because this post has been up for quite some time now and its clogging up my mail box. Could this discussion be done off the site? Please... Harry 69 280 SEL 72 350SL ? 04 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata ? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
The value of D9, assuming it was a glass Zener diode, is a bit of a problem. Based on the clamping voltage of the MOV (82V), and the maximum working voltage of C1 (25V), R2 must have at least 30 mA through it for C1 to be protected at clamp time. That would mean that R5 would be dropping 12 V, leaving another 12 V at D9's cathode. D9 would have to be conducting by then, else C1 would be over-voltaged. So it's at most a 12 V Zener, and can't be a glass Diac (which has a breakover voltage higher than that). If D9 was a forward-biased signal diode R3 must have approximately 0.5 mA through it before Q3 can start conducting, that would pin D9's _anode_ voltage (the cathode in the schematic) at around 1 V when regulation began. R4/R1's current would be approximately 0.7 mA, so R5's current would be 1.2 mA. That would make the voltage on C1 approximately 1.5 V, which seems too low. From this I conclude that D9 _is_ a Zener diode, of less than 12 V in value. Zener diodes start at around 1.8 V in value, but I think I'll first try something like a 6 V rating. The 1N6309-20 diodes are glass, at 2.4-6.8 V in rating. 1N6319 is a 6.2 V glass Zener. 1N746A-59A are glass, at 3.3-12 V in rating. 1N753A is also a 6.2 V glass Zener. There are plenty of candidates to try. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:25:34 -0700 Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The value of D9, assuming it was a glass Zener diode, is a bit of a problem. Based on the clamping voltage of the MOV (82V), and the maximum working voltage of C1 (25V), R2 must have at least 30 mA through it for C1 to be protected at clamp time. That would mean that R5 would be dropping 12 V, leaving another 12 V at D9's cathode. D9 would have to be conducting by then, else C1 would be over-voltaged. So it's at most a 12 V Zener, and can't be a glass Diac (which has a breakover voltage higher than that). What is the power rating of R2? 30 mA through 2 k is 1.8 watts. Likewise, what is the rating of R1? What if the MOV is intended only to clip transients and spikes? The time constant of R2 and C1 is 0.44 s, which is a long time for transients and spikes. It also gives a pole at 0.36 Hz for the feedback loop (with the yellow winding is the feedback sense winding). If D9 was a forward-biased signal diode R3 must have approximately 0.5 mA through it before Q3 can start conducting, that would pin D9's _anode_ voltage (the cathode in the schematic) at around 1 V when regulation began. R4/R1's current would be approximately 0.7 mA, so R5's current would be 1.2 mA. That would make the voltage on C1 approximately 1.5 V, which seems too low. Not to mention that the temperature coefficient of a signal diode would make for lousy regulation. Note also that the R1 + R4 combination can vary 3:1 in resistance, a rather wide range for adjustment. From this I conclude that D9 _is_ a Zener diode, of less than 12 V in value. Zener diodes start at around 1.8 V in value, but I think I'll first try something like a 6 V rating. The 1N6309-20 diodes are glass, at 2.4-6.8 V in rating. 1N6319 is a 6.2 V glass Zener. 1N746A-59A are glass, at 3.3-12 V in rating. 1N753A is also a 6.2 V glass Zener. There are plenty of candidates to try. Indeed there are. 6.2 V is a good starting place and is near the zero temperature coefficient point of the series of diodes. I still wonder about Q6 and D11. If you're conducting through D11, Q6 has to be off. If Q6 is on, D11 cannot be conducting. In this case the stored energy in the red-green winding has to forward-bias the body diode of Q6. BTW, do Q1 and Q2 have any heat sinking? I certainly hope so, particularly if they're run in the linear region. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
I pulled Q1 and Q2 off the board, one was shorted C-E, the other appears OK. I pulled R1 and it's a 2k trim pot, set almost exactly in the middle. The resistors, at least, seem to be marked with their values on the board's silk screen. The potting will probably make most of these illegible. Q1 and Q2 had their emitters labeled E. I wonder what the original failure really was? If the imbalance of Q1/Q2, due to the lack of emitter resistors, caused Q1 (let's say) to get too hot in a positive feedback cycle instead of sharing the load with Q2 and then short out, regulation would have stopped. There would be full field applied, and the generator would have gone over-voltage. This could have caused the feedback winding to over-voltage the MOV, shorting it and then burning out the diode bridge and finally the board trace. But what, then, stopped generation? It is without a doubt that the thing wasn't generating anymore when I got it. D11 seems OK, there's nothing else there to block field current. Even if Q6 were shorted (which it isn't) R9 could only cut back the field current, not eliminate it. It's a mystery! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:14:43 -0700 Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is without a doubt that the thing wasn't generating anymore when I got it. D11 seems OK, there's nothing else there to block field current. Even if Q6 were shorted (which it isn't) R9 could only cut back the field current, not eliminate it. How stiff a voltage/current source is the blue winding? Were you able to get it to generate by putting voltage on the field (red-green) winding? I forget. It's a mystery! Indeed. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
What is the power rating of R2? 30 mA through 2 k is 1.8 watts. Likewise, what is the rating of R1? Those are on the schematic sheet. R2 is your basic small resistor. What is that, 1/4W? R1 is a small 10-turn trim pot. Nothing notable about either one. What if the MOV is intended only to clip transients and spikes? The time That's all they're actually good for! I was just doing some worst-case math to see where it led me. Note also that the R1 + R4 combination can vary 3:1 in resistance, a rather wide range for adjustment. More than that, R1 is actually a 2k unit that was set at 1k. I still wonder about Q6 and D11. If you're conducting through D11, Q6 has to be off. If Q6 is on, D11 cannot be conducting. In this case the stored energy in the red-green winding has to forward-bias the body diode of Q6. That whole area is pretty mysterious. If Q6 were back-conducting, current would be limited by R9. There's another, beefier, back path through D11/D13. BTW, do Q1 and Q2 have any heat sinking? I certainly hope so, particularly if they're run in the linear region. They're yoked together with a little piece of aluminum bent in a U. Not much area at all, a couple of square inches tops. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
How stiff a voltage/current source is the blue winding? Stiff, I'm guessing, because of the 3A diodes. It has to supply all the field current. It measures 0.5 ohms with the Fluke. In this class of machine, however, it's intended to be limited to roughly what the field needs. The yellow winding measures 0.1 ohms. Were you able to get it to generate by putting voltage on the field (red-green) winding? I forget. Yes, once the brushes were replaced. With a battery charger feeding the field I only get 20V. With a 12V battery in series with the charger I got about 95V out of the generator. Both into a 500W work lamp. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:52:26 -0700 Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Were you able to get it to generate by putting voltage on the field (red-green) winding? I forget. Yes, once the brushes were replaced. With a battery charger feeding the field I only get 20V. With a 12V battery in series with the charger I got about 95V out of the generator. Both into a 500W work lamp. That's encouraging. Considering the 250 V rating of C2, 24 V across the field isn't much. What's the voltage across the blue winding in these conditions? Craig P.S. I just remembered I have a copy of Electric Power System Components: Transformers and Rotating Machines, by Robert Stein and William T. Hunt, Jr. Unfortunately (after looking just now) the only chapter it has on generators is on synchronous generators, running a synchronous motor as a generator -- which is not the case here. Oh well. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Considering the 250 V rating of C2, 24 V across the field isn't much. What's the voltage across the blue winding in these conditions? Don't know yet. I'm going to have to start messing with that stuff, probably after I get the regulator starting to go back together. With a 12V field I did measure 4V on one and 8V on the other, I didn't note which was which. I'm assuming it was 8V on Blue. The main outputs were at 20V. Scaling linearly, at rated output Blue ought to be 48V, and Yellow 24V. P.S. I just remembered I have a copy of Electric Power System Components: Transformers and Rotating Machines, by Robert Stein and William T. Hunt, Jr. Unfortunately (after looking just now) the only chapter it has on generators is on synchronous generators, running a synchronous motor as a generator -- which is not the case here. Oh well. I have books like that too. This _is_ a synchronous machine, that book would probably apply. But there are those extra two excitation output windings... (Blue and Yellow.) Books like that tend to gloss over the regulator's role, I've found. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Nothing personal here guys, but what does?this have to do with Mercedes? Just inquiring because this post has been up for quite some time now and its clogging up my mail box. Could this discussion be done off the site? Please... Harry 69 280 SEL 72 350SL ? 04 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata ? -Original Message- From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset So, anybody electronical out there care to critique the recreated original regulator schematic? It's mostly complete, though some of the component values are possibly off. My best guess for D9 is that it was a Zener diode, but if somebody else though differently based on the circuit that would be nice to hear about. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/genset3/regulator.pdf -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Harry, We routinely get off subject with this list it's been brought up before. I believe that the general consensus is that it's OK since we all still share the same general interests. I suggest you do what I do, follow the threads you are interested in delete the rest. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 10:49 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset Nothing personal here guys, but what does?this have to do with Mercedes? Just inquiring because this post has been up for quite some time now and its clogging up my mail box. Could this discussion be done off the site? Please... Harry 69 280 SEL 72 350SL ? 04 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata ? -Original Message- From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset So, anybody electronical out there care to critique the recreated original regulator schematic? It's mostly complete, though some of the component values are possibly off. My best guess for D9 is that it was a Zener diode, but if somebody else though differently based on the circuit that would be nice to hear about. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/genset3/regulator.pdf -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Yea I know, I tend to do that myself and I'll admit it doesn't hurt to change the topic once in a while. Guess the same old gets a bit boring at times...It could just be I have no clue as to what the heck everyone is talking about Harry 69 280 SEL 72 350SL ? 04 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata ? -Original Message- From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset Harry, We routinely get off subject with this list it's been brought up before. I believe that the general consensus is that it's OK since we all still share the same general interests. I suggest you do what I do, follow the threads you are interested in delete the rest. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 10:49 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset Nothing personal here guys, but what does?this have to do with Mercedes? Just inquiring because this post has been up for quite some time now and its clogging up my mail box. Could this discussion be done off the site? Please... Harry 69 280 SEL 72 350SL ? 04 VW Passat 4 Motion 1999 Mazda Miata ? -Original Message- From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset So, anybody electronical out there care to critique the recreated original regulator schematic? It's mostly complete, though some of the component values are possibly off. My best guess for D9 is that it was a Zener diode, but if somebody else though differently based on the circuit that would be nice to hear about. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/genset3/regulator.pdf -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
So, anybody electronical out there care to critique the recreated original regulator schematic? It's mostly complete, though some of the component values are possibly off. My best guess for D9 is that it was a Zener diode, but if somebody else though differently based on the circuit that would be nice to hear about. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/genset3/regulator.pdf -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:41:59 -0700 Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, anybody electronical out there care to critique the recreated original regulator schematic? It's mostly complete, though some of the component values are possibly off. My best guess for D9 is that it was a Zener diode, but if somebody else though differently based on the circuit that would be nice to hear about. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/genset3/regulator.pdf It seems close to the right idea overall, but has a number of quirks: It's strange that they take all the trouble to make sure Q6 gets turned off well (with Q5 AND D11), but have not provided anything to turn Q1 and Q2 off. D10 is in a wierd location, too, since there's no way for current to flow that way. The current in the red-green winding will always flow from red to green (unless there's induction from somewhere else), so Q6 is the wrong polarity to dump its current. Q6 will only add to the current flowing through D11. If Q3 is turned on, Q4 (and thus Q1 and Q2) will be off and Q5 will be off. R11 will reverse bias D11 and turn Q6 on, but if current has been flowing in red-green, now having nowhere to go, it will flip the polarity on red-green so that green is positive and red is negative. This will forward bias the body diode of Q6, which will clamp the green wire at 0.7V above the potential of C2. But why a transistor for Q6? Strange. D12 is the correct polarity to protect Q5 from polarity reversals of the red-green winding, and D13 will clamp the base of Q6 close to the positive rail, with the current first flowing through D11 in those instances, but why go to all that bother? Also, C4 and R6 provide POSITIVE feedback for Q3, Q4, Q1, and Q2, not negative. Is this thing supposed to oscillate and D9, et al., provide pulse-width oscillation? On the other hand, if the red-green winding has current induced in it, so that it's a current source rather than a current sink, and has current flowing from green to red, then the polarity of D10 and Q6 make sense. But here it would be powering the circuit instead of the blue winding, the upper bridge, and C2. And when Q6 turns on, it would be shorting the output of the red-green winding (which appears to be not a good thing). Also, if D10 is conducting, D11 will be reverse biased and turning Q1 and Q2 on only pulls down on the base of Q6, and they don't need two darlingtons to do that. Strange. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
It's strange that they take all the trouble to make sure Q6 gets turned off well (with Q5 AND D11), but have not provided anything to turn Q1 and Q2 off. D11 may be for turn-off, but it's also the main current path for the field. Orienting it in the schematic was one of the difficult parts. I had it like D12 before, and just couldn't see the main current flow. D10 is in a wierd location, too, since there's no way for current to flow that way. Not normally, I think of it as a GP protection device. Generators are probably a rather harsh environment! The current in the red-green winding will always flow from red to green (unless there's induction from somewhere else), so Q6 is the wrong polarity to dump its current. Q6 will only add to the current flowing through D11. Yes. I think one of the major features is that it _intends_ to burn the excess available power from the main excitation winding. I have no proof yet, but I think there are two excitation windings because one of them is a third-harmonic winding that generates more as the machine is overloaded. If Q3 is turned on, Q4 (and thus Q1 and Q2) will be off and Q5 will be off. R11 will reverse bias D11 and turn Q6 on, but if current has been flowing in red-green, now having nowhere to go, it will flip the polarity on red-green so that green is positive and red is negative. This will forward bias the body diode of Q6, which will clamp the green wire at 0.7V above the potential of C2. But why a transistor for Q6? Strange. R9 is the biggest resistor there, it's obviously intended to burn lots of power. It's apparent to me that Q6's job is to put R9 (at 10 ohms) in parallel with the 15-ohm field under whatever conditions it thinks appropriate to cut the field current. D12 is the correct polarity to protect Q5 from polarity reversals of the red-green winding, and D13 will clamp the base of Q6 close to the positive rail, with the current first flowing through D11 in those instances, but why go to all that bother? It's a rather large winding, if there are load dumps that cause the regulator to want to cut off the field current the spike could be hellacious. Henries of inductance? Also, C4 and R6 provide POSITIVE feedback for Q3, Q4, Q1, and Q2, not negative. Is this thing supposed to oscillate and D9, et al., provide pulse-width oscillation? That _is_ weird. It certainly could be PWM regulation. There's enough filter inductance in the field to smooth it out. C3 provides negative feedback, could it be enough to cancel out the positive? I believe C3 and C4 are the same value. They were badly damaged, but they're both the same size, and they're those green-dipped film jobs. Thin chiclets. On the other hand, if the red-green winding has current induced in it, so that it's a current source rather than a current sink, and has current flowing from green to red, then the polarity of D10 and Q6 make sense. Such induction would be transient, at best. Under normal conditions the field (R/G) winding is fed some 60+ volts. If you don't feed it plenty you don't get enough output voltage on the main windings. But here it would be powering the circuit instead of the blue winding, the upper bridge, and C2. And when Q6 turns on, it would be shorting the output of the red-green winding (which appears to be not a good thing). Also, if D10 is conducting, D11 will be reverse biased and turning Q1 and Q2 on only pulls down on the base of Q6, and they don't need two darlingtons to do that. Strange. Indeed! I am wondering if this thing is worthy of resurrection, and if so, what improvements to make to it. I already intend to put the MOV in the middle of the 2K R2 (using 2 1k resistors) so that if it fails again it won't burn out the diode bridge, again. I intend to fuse all three windings, and I intend to put small (0.1 ohm?) emitter resistors on Q1 and Q2. So was my schematic layout all that it should be? I'm open to rearranging it if it'll help aid in understanding it. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:39:42 -0700 Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Strange. Indeed! I am wondering if this thing is worthy of resurrection, and if so, what improvements to make to it. I already intend to put the MOV in the middle of the 2K R2 (using 2 1k resistors) so that if it fails again it won't burn out the diode bridge, again. I intend to fuse all three windings, and I intend to put small (0.1 ohm?) emitter resistors on Q1 and Q2. These sound like good things to do. So was my schematic layout all that it should be? I'm open to rearranging it if it'll help aid in understanding it. That's exactly how I would have drawn it myself. It's very straightforward (the drawing, not the circuit, as we've already discussed) and easy to understand. Good job. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
So, anybody electronical out there that's connected well enough to find some specs on a Chinese T2142 Dynamo Transistor? All I really need right now is a pinout, and its basic characteristics. With any luck the one I have is still good, but using the Fluke to suss out the pins isn't working too well. Assuming that it is NPN-ish with customary pinouts for the package gets me a schematic that is stupid. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Hi, Jim. I'm sure that you found this, but:- http://iscsemi.cn/hot.asp www.szcanyi.com/showpic.asp?id=24 Made in China. (where else?) Fred Moir Lynn MA At 09:53 AM 10/4/2007, you wrote: So, anybody electronical out there that's connected well enough to find some specs on a Chinese T2142 Dynamo Transistor? All I really need right now is a pinout, and its basic characteristics. With any luck the one I have is still good, but using the Fluke to suss out the pins isn't working too well. Assuming that it is NPN-ish with customary pinouts for the package gets me a schematic that is stupid. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Jim C. http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/105045/SANYO/TT2142.html Fred Moir At 09:53 AM 10/4/2007, you wrote: So, anybody electronical out there that's connected well enough to find some specs on a Chinese T2142 Dynamo Transistor? All I really need right now is a pinout, and its basic characteristics. With any luck the one I have is still good, but using the Fluke to suss out the pins isn't working too well. Assuming that it is NPN-ish with customary pinouts for the package gets me a schematic that is stupid. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
- Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, anybody electronical out there that's connected well enough to find some specs on a Chinese T2142 Dynamo Transistor? All I really need right now is a pinout, and its basic characteristics. With any luck the one I have is still good, but using the Fluke to suss out the pins isn't working too well. Assuming that it is NPN-ish with customary pinouts for the package gets me a schematic that is stupid. -- Jim --- If you're anywhere near a big university you might try their engineering libraries website and look for circuits, transistors, dynamo, gensets, generators, chinese generators, etc. If you find something you can go to the library and zerox whatever you need. Back when I was fooling around with the some of the early Asian electronics I found that the eng libr had books with circuits for nearly any kind of manufactured electronic part or product imaginable. If the librarian is knowledgeable, he/she might help you find what you're looking for. Senior students sometime work the libraries desk. If the university in your area is like the University of Florida, you'll very likely see many Chinese and other oriental students working there. Some of them might actually be familiar with your genset. Good luck, Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, anybody electronical out there that's connected well enough to find some specs on a Chinese T2142 Dynamo Transistor? All I really need right now is a pinout, and its basic characteristics. With any luck the one I have is still good, but using the Fluke to suss out the pins isn't working too well. Assuming that it is NPN-ish with customary pinouts for the package gets me a schematic that is stupid. -- Jim --- My 1991 15th Edition of the Phillips ECG Master Replacement Guide shows: T-2122 and the next is T-2159. I downloaded their 19th edition and found that the T-2142 was not listed. http://www.moyerelectronics.com/index.shtml?http://www.moyerelectronics.com/DownLoads/ However, the 16th, 17th, 18th editions could have listed and then dropped it. These may be available on the net or an engineering library might have all the editions. I suspect the Chinese number is in accordance with Phillips/international protocols and information on it is available. Good luck, Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Thanks, guys! I was only finding places that I needed to be a paid subscriber to, don't know how I missed alldata. The part resembles what I originally thought it was. So I don't yet understand the circuit, more thought required. FYI, that T2142 looks an awful lot like it might work as a replacement pass element in the early-80's ignition box. Not a physical fit, mind you, but something that could perhaps be made to work anyway. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:37:37 -0700 Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I exposed the components over by the trim pot, and found what I expected. Unfortunately I cracked the glass diode! Probably no way to tell what it was now. Oops. They're power darlingtons, with clamping diode. (Last I was taught, it's not too kosher to parallel BJT's without small emitter degradation resistors. That's one of the reasons I assumed they were FET's.) You are correct. Paralleling BJTs is a bad idea. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Yesterday I spent some 'quality time' with the scanner, the digital camera, and Illustrator. I'm trying to recreate 'artwork' representing the regulator's circuit board. This will aid me in not missing anything when creating the schematic. It's going slowly, but I believe the end results will be adequate to the task. Today it was more Illustrator. I've got the rest of the components and tracing done, but there's two obscuring chunks of potting left. I think I've figured out what components are underneath one, but the other is a bit more mysterious. There are five leads left unaccounted for, and of course most basic components have only two. The pattern doesn't really allow for a three-lead component like a transistor. I'm going to have to do some more digging! The large bipolar transistor has what appears to be T2142 on it, and another 142 in smaller print, and an L. I saw an ad on Craig's List for a substantially similar generator, brand new, but with a few more bolt-on features like a small transfer switch and a few more watts. $1900! Because it was easy to do I popped the potting off the bottom of the other (overload?) board. It's got a 14-pin IC on it. I'm not going to try to unpot the components. It's probably not broken, nor is it critical to generation. Maybe later, if it gives me trouble. The iron had warmed up while I did the overload board's trace-side potting removal, so I then removed the regulator's two electrolytic capacitors and the large bipolar transistor. These exposed the MOV component label (it's an 82 V unit) and the remaining potting blocks. I surfed for the big transistor, and found that there is a Chinese T2142 Dynamo Transistor, whatever _that_ is. No other information on it, yet. The multimeter indicates that it's more complicated than a basic transistor. I exposed the components over by the trim pot, and found what I expected. Unfortunately I cracked the glass diode! Probably no way to tell what it was now. Zener? 1N914? Capacitor, even? I pulled one of the green-dipped mylar capacitors and measured .0012 nF on the bridge. That's down in the noise. I exposed the parts under the other potting blob and found another transistor! OK, that explains the pin count. Marked A42 and B331. MPS-A42? That's a high-voltage level translator, rather old in fact. The PCB hole pattern was not customary, but so what. The remaining component was a resistor, as expected. The big transistors were labeled MJ10012, which is not a FET at all! They're power darlingtons, with clamping diode. (Last I was taught, it's not too kosher to parallel BJT's without small emitter degradation resistors. That's one of the reasons I assumed they were FET's.) If these are BJT's, they may be dead. I measure a dead short between C and E. This board is starting to appear to have been thoroughly fried, and half of what didn't suicide has now been killed by me. Sigh. Well, it didn't work before I started messing with it, either! Anyway, so far the schematic I have prepared contains only the layout and the Bill of Materials. While I have a penciled schematic, I must rearrange it a few times to put into intelligible form. There's an art to good schematic design, after all...and I'm no artist. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/genset3/regulator.pdf -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
yeah, i kind get the point now. with me, i gather up a bunch of old laptop parts and make a computer. while one can more easily go buy a working laptop, it's more about taking junk and making it useful through labor. On 9/26/07, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's the challenge issue. If price is no object, then there is no challenge to overcome when buying new. You get a lot of satisfaction from turning a POS into a good useful tool, etc. Heck - some of us get vicarious satisfaction from Jim's exploits! Reading about them is a lot more fun than I bought a new genset today - it works. On 9/26/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sounds to me that the lesson here is that junk is still junk and ought to be avoided, whatever the price. If price was no object, I'd have bought a better one, new. Junk is often junk because of only a few weak places. Or so I've found. Sometimes you can correct them. -- Jim -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Exactly. On 9/28/07, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yeah, i kind get the point now. with me, i gather up a bunch of old laptop parts and make a computer. while one can more easily go buy a working laptop, it's more about taking junk and making it useful through labor. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Here I would reference the $25 4400w generator that needed a cup of oil and the $45 Newton I sold for $500 that needed nothing but a recharge. Also gotten some genuine junk. For me it is also entertainment and it gives me something to do while I wait for my tranny to arrive next week ... BillR Jacksonville FL 1981 300SD 295k miles, and currently w/o a transmission -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 9:10 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset Junk is often junk because of only a few weak places. Or so I've found. Sometimes you can correct them. ...And sometimes you find $20 on the nightstand. Not too often, though. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
For me it is also entertainment and... Me too. But the entertainment value of this thing is dwindling rapidly. Maybe I'll learn something about power FET's? (Tell me about, computers...) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
After much chiseling, and some tracing, I think I found the genesis of this generator's general grunge. (Hey, _you_ try to find a 'g' word that's better!) The small diode bridge has every diode blown, shorted, and its feed trace gone too. Perhaps it's the shorted 'protective' MOV on its output? Of course, now it has other problems! Me and my chisel... Bad design. If you're going to use a MOV, a wear component, put it where it can be replaced. And fuse the circuit too. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
It seems than at Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:18:06 -0700, Jim wrote: The small diode bridge has every diode blown, shorted, and its feed trace gone too. Perhaps it's the shorted 'protective' MOV on its output? Bad design. If you're going to use a MOV, a wear component, put it where it can be replaced. And fuse the circuit too. Yup. An MOV can work well. But to not plan for it to fail - and shorted _is_ it's most common failure mode - is as silly as a paperclip instead of a fuse in the fuse box!! It would seem to me you have found the problem. So, are you planning to rebuild the original? Or build your own, now that you have figured out how it functions? Or locate an off-the-shelf regulator that will do the job? Curious minds want to know -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
So, are you planning to rebuild the original? Yes, assuming I haven't destroyed too many components with the chisel. There's a couple of resistors that are open-circuit now. One broke in half, another got a nice peel job, the ceramic case is gone off of one, etc. The two big heat-sinked pass elements are completely in parallel, and measure 0.7 ohms across their business ends. Could these be depletion-mode FET's? I've got no experience with these. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
sounds to me that the lesson here is that junk is still junk and ought to be avoided, whatever the price. On 9/26/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, are you planning to rebuild the original? Yes, assuming I haven't destroyed too many components with the chisel. There's a couple of resistors that are open-circuit now. One broke in half, another got a nice peel job, the ceramic case is gone off of one, etc. The two big heat-sinked pass elements are completely in parallel, and measure 0.7 ohms across their business ends. Could these be depletion-mode FET's? I've got no experience with these. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
sounds to me that the lesson here is that junk is still junk and ought to be avoided, whatever the price. If price was no object, I'd have bought a better one, new. Junk is often junk because of only a few weak places. Or so I've found. Sometimes you can correct them. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
And then there's the challenge issue. If price is no object, then there is no challenge to overcome when buying new. You get a lot of satisfaction from turning a POS into a good useful tool, etc. Heck - some of us get vicarious satisfaction from Jim's exploits! Reading about them is a lot more fun than I bought a new genset today - it works. On 9/26/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sounds to me that the lesson here is that junk is still junk and ought to be avoided, whatever the price. If price was no object, I'd have bought a better one, new. Junk is often junk because of only a few weak places. Or so I've found. Sometimes you can correct them. -- Jim -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Junk is often junk because of only a few weak places. Or so I've found. Sometimes you can correct them. ...And sometimes you find $20 on the nightstand. Not too often, though. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
The big heat-sinked paralleled transistors _are_ N-channel depletion-mode FET's. I used the Fluke to measure the channel resistance of the pair between source and drain, and got about 0.8 ohms. With a negative 1.25V applied to the gate using the Heathkit VTVM's ohmmeter function the channel resistance of the pair shot up to around 80 ohms. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:16:28 -0700 Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The big heat-sinked paralleled transistors _are_ N-channel depletion-mode FET's. I used the Fluke to measure the channel resistance of the pair between source and drain, and got about 0.8 ohms. With a negative 1.25V applied to the gate using the Heathkit VTVM's ohmmeter function the channel resistance of the pair shot up to around 80 ohms. Amazing. I've never even heard of those as power devices, only enhancement mode FETs. Now the small, raisin JFETs are a different story. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
With only a little prying with a pair of screwdrivers, and 'biting' at it with some pliers, I was able to completely expose the bottom of the regulator's PCB. Big chunks of the potting material peeled up. Some of the solder mask came up with it, but otherwise no harm that I could tell. There is what looks to be a blown trace over at the excitation winding input area, I couldn't find any trace of the missing copper stuck to the removed potting material. That'd do it! I'll need to figure out why it blew, however. The potting material is somewhat brittle and can probably be chipped away with patience. Even without exposing the component side I should be able to do at least some circuit tracing. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
- Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] With only a little prying with a pair of screwdrivers, and 'biting' at it with some pliers, I was able to completely expose the bottom of the regulator's PCB. Big chunks of the potting material peeled up. Some of the solder mask came up with it, but otherwise no harm that I could tell. There is what looks to be a blown trace over at the excitation winding input area, I couldn't find any trace of the missing copper stuck to the removed potting material. That'd do it! I'll need to figure out why it blew, however.snip -- Jim -- The short to ground? Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
figure out why it blew, however.snip The short to ground? But _nothing_ else is referenced to ground, so there's nothing to short to. That's the mystery. I have managed to, with the help of a bowl full of acetone and dry ice, a nail set, hammer, and anvil, to chip off enough of the regulator's potting to identify components. I only broke a few of them! I'll begin tracing the schematic soon. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
I pulled the 'two-piece' regulator out. Not two pieces at all, the units are entirely separate. The regulator connects _only_ to the two excitation windings and the field. It's potted in a black plastic shell, and the potting is cracked. Three power transistors protrude, two of them heat-sinked together, as does a large 250V 470 uF electrolytic capacitor. A smaller electrolytic lies just below the surface of the potting. A trim potentiometer also protrudes. Molded into the back of the shell is GTDK, and the month/year clock codes of 11/9. (Which could also be interpreted as 5/4, or any combination thereof since the M and Y letters aren't very good arrows.) Stamped on the back is AVR7-1E3A 06 07. The entire unit is curved like it was supposed to fit into a generator housing. The other unit hooks to the front panel and has a current transformer looped around the main output that it connects to. Constructed like the regulator, it has GTDK date codes of 7/06, or perhaps 1/01. Stamped on the side is BI-1 06.07, or perhaps B1-1. Protruding through the potting is a relay, an LED, and a trim pot. Two small electrolytics lie just below the surface of the potting. This looks to be an overload shutdown or something like that. The potting had pulled away from the shell, the block was easily removed. The back (PCB) side was crazed, this potting material looks brittle enough that it may be possible to remove it easily. Cold (dry ice?) may be of great help. I pulled the regulator out of the shell, but I was too energetic and managed to crack the shell. (No great loss.) There were voids in the potting, part of the PCB was exposed. There was a great deal of granular white plastic material mixed in the black potting at the 'bottom', I don't know if this is un-melted pot material or a component thereof, or what. But this potting looks very brittle, I may be able to expose the circuitry with some care. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Did the shorted winding un-short when you unhooked the regulator? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Did the shorted winding un-short when you unhooked the regulator? Oh, no. It's a short in the field to the rotor. Harmless, so far as I can tell. The first rotor short is free! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Have you ever tried mining something that was potted? No. But I've been thinking about it. Promises to be _extremely_ time-consuming, however. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
I did some surfing, and found out some interesting things. Here is a link to a generator vaguely similar to mine: http://www.usdieselengines.com/generator-welder.pdf There are some engine management schematics in it, operating instructions, etc. Unfortunately the electrical end is fairly different. Almost every one of this class of generator I've been able to find information on uses the resonant type of regulation, using mostly just a capacitor. (Such generators don't start heavy motors very well, and apparently don't tolerate _at_all_ capacitive (leading power factor) loads. And I believe they are relatively inefficient in that they burn excess input mechanical power as heat, rather than reduce the field and thus the mechanical load.) Yet mine has a more traditional electronic regulator. Nice, I suppose, when it's working. Not so nice when it fails. (It wouldn't be a problem if it were in a sealed box instead of being epoxy-potted. I can often fix crap like that.) I also found a link to a white paper on the theory of this low-cost regulation system: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/6/14/23147/3970 Interesting reading. The upshot is that the cheap resonant regulator seems to operate, similar to a constant-voltage transformer, by running in saturation and burning excess mechanical energy as heat. They should be markedly less efficient at partial load as a result. And here is an interesting white paper on generator voltage regulator theory: http://lib.tkk.fi/Dipl/2007/urn009728.pdf In it I found the first plausible explanation of why my generator might have two separate excitation windings. One winding reacts to no-load conditions, and the other to short-circuit conditions. One is at the fundamental frequency, and the other is at the third harmonic. Together they span the range of loads from zero to shorted, and give a first-order response for regulation. In other words, the electronics of the regulator itself can be simplified if they're powered from the combination (series?) of these two windings. If this is indeed what I have, my generator is considerably better than the run of the mill. Except, of course, that it is broken. Regardless of its design sophistication, its construction seems no better than any other cheapie. And _don't_ get me started on epoxy-potting electronics! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
I did some surfing, and found out some interesting things. Here is a link to a generator vaguely similar to mine: http://www.usdieselengines.com/generator-welder.pdf There are some engine management schematics in it, operating instructions, etc. Unfortunately the electrical end is fairly different. Almost every one of this class of generator I've been able to find information on uses the resonant type of regulation, using mostly just a capacitor. (Such generators don't start heavy motors very well, and apparently don't tolerate _at_all_ capacitive (leading power factor) loads. And I believe they are relatively inefficient in that they burn excess input mechanical power as heat, rather than reduce the field and thus the mechanical load.) Yet mine has a more traditional electronic regulator. Nice, I suppose, when it's working. Not so nice when it fails. (It wouldn't be a problem if it were in a sealed box instead of being epoxy-potted. I can often fix crap like that.) I also found a link to a white paper on the theory of this low-cost regulation system: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/6/14/23147/3970 Interesting reading. The upshot is that the cheap resonant regulator seems to operate, similar to a constant-voltage transformer, by running in saturation and burning excess mechanical energy as heat. They should be markedly less efficient at partial load as a result. And here is an interesting white paper on generator voltage regulator theory: http://lib.tkk.fi/Dipl/2007/urn009728.pdf In it I found the first plausible explanation of why my generator might have two separate excitation windings. One winding reacts to no-load conditions, and the other to short-circuit conditions. One is at the fundamental frequency, and the other is at the third harmonic. Together they span the range of loads from zero to shorted, and give a first-order response for regulation. In other words, the electronics of the regulator itself can be simplified if they're powered from the combination (series?) of these two windings. If this is indeed what I have, my generator is considerably better than the run of the mill. Except, of course, that it is broken. Regardless of its design sophistication, its construction seems no better than any other cheapie. And _don't_ get me started on epoxy-potting electronics! -- Jim --- Have you ever tried mining something that was potted? I've read about it but never tried it except with silicon potted stuff. With the hard potted assemblies you start out by grinding down alongside a wire very slowly and with constant visual checks with a dental drill or equivalent; removing all possible potting material in all directions as you go. Eventually you come to a component which you mainly want to identify while keeping it intact if possible. As you continue grinding away the epoxy, more and more components and wires will be exposed and you can figure out how they work. I think this method was used during the cold war to figure out Russian electronics and vice-versa. Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Did you check to see if the windings might be shorted to ground? It looks like the center of the field winding might be, each slip ring measures in the 5-9 ohm range to frame ground. I'm guessing that's not good? -- Jim How close are the ohm readings? Could the winding be center tapped to ground or someplace else? (Just guessing.) Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
From: archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you check to see if the windings might be shorted to ground? It looks like the center of the field winding might be, each slip ring measures in the 5-9 ohm range to frame ground. I'm guessing that's not good? -- Jim How close are the ohm readings? Could the winding be center tapped to ground or someplace else? (Just guessing.) Gerry -- If there is a short to ground, have you thought about replacing the windings? In the past, if you could get the wedges/insulators out of the shorted stator or rotor windings and take them to a motor shop, they would wind new ones for you for a reasonable price. You might also wind your own if the wire is available. Years ago I knew a guy who would take his shorted windings down to a fishermans store and measure their length on one of those jigs they use to measure fishline. Then he'd use the same jig to reel off the same length of new wire. He'd take it home and wind it on a jig he would run on low speed in his drill press. He'd put it back in the stator or rotor with the same wedges/insulators. Claimed the motors ran well. Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
It looks like the center of the field winding might be, each slip ring measures in the 5-9 ohm range to frame ground. I'm guessing that's not good? How close are the ohm readings? Could the winding be center tapped to ground or someplace else? (Just guessing.) It's _possible_, but I fail to see the purpose behind it. Ground is the only possible place for the center tap, there is no third slip ring or other way to get at it. If it's a single short it might even be harmless, but if more than one wire is shorted there could be eddy currents circulating in the loop thus formed that would cause overheating or other problems. There would also be a proportional reduction in field strength, depending on how many turns were shorted out. I'm sure rewinding the rotor is _possible_, but I'm not sure I want to go there! There's no guarantee that the (complex) regulator works, either. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
You don't need anything fancy to control the excitation voltage. I've seen everything from a diode and a resistor, to a microprocessor board with fuzzy logic that also controls the throttle. Here is a basic troubleshooting guide: http://utterpower.com/Trouble.htm -Dave Walton On 9/20/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks like the center of the field winding might be, each slip ring measures in the 5-9 ohm range to frame ground. I'm guessing that's not good? How close are the ohm readings? Could the winding be center tapped to ground or someplace else? (Just guessing.) It's _possible_, but I fail to see the purpose behind it. Ground is the only possible place for the center tap, there is no third slip ring or other way to get at it. If it's a single short it might even be harmless, but if more than one wire is shorted there could be eddy currents circulating in the loop thus formed that would cause overheating or other problems. There would also be a proportional reduction in field strength, depending on how many turns were shorted out. I'm sure rewinding the rotor is _possible_, but I'm not sure I want to go there! There's no guarantee that the (complex) regulator works, either. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
FYI - I have a 15kw China Genset and get 15 ohms between the rings on the rotor. I show no reading (infinite resistance) between the rotor winding and ground. -Dave Walton On 9/20/07, dave walton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't need anything fancy to control the excitation voltage. I've seen everything from a diode and a resistor, to a microprocessor board with fuzzy logic that also controls the throttle. Here is a basic troubleshooting guide: http://utterpower.com/Trouble.htm -Dave Walton On 9/20/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks like the center of the field winding might be, each slip ring measures in the 5-9 ohm range to frame ground. I'm guessing that's not good? How close are the ohm readings? Could the winding be center tapped to ground or someplace else? (Just guessing.) It's _possible_, but I fail to see the purpose behind it. Ground is the only possible place for the center tap, there is no third slip ring or other way to get at it. If it's a single short it might even be harmless, but if more than one wire is shorted there could be eddy currents circulating in the loop thus formed that would cause overheating or other problems. There would also be a proportional reduction in field strength, depending on how many turns were shorted out. I'm sure rewinding the rotor is _possible_, but I'm not sure I want to go there! There's no guarantee that the (complex) regulator works, either. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
You don't need anything fancy to control the excitation voltage. I've seen everything from a diode and a resistor, to a microprocessor board with fuzzy logic that also controls the throttle. Here is a basic troubleshooting guide: http://utterpower.com/Trouble.htm Thanks, I'd already found that guide, which was helpful. The thing I don't understand is the two different excitation windings that seem to feed the regulator. FYI - I have a 15kw China Genset and get 15 ohms between the rings on the rotor. I show no reading (infinite resistance) between the rotor winding and ground. Yeah, I suspect that there's something wrong there. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On that diagram, F1-F2 is the winding in the Rotor. All the U points and the two windings labeled 3 are the primary windings in the housing that give you 110V each, or 220V in series with a center tap, just like power from the utility. Z1 - Z2 is a winding in the housing that is used only for powering the rotor. You don't need a special winding and can power the rotor from one of the primary windings - but you have to lower the voltage a lot and there is enough current that you need a regulated switching power supply, or some kind of big-ass resistor. The Chinese like to put in the extra winding and keep the electronics simple. No argument from me there. 5 is a bridge rectifier that converts the AC coming off the excitation winding to DC to power the rotor. The zigzag thing with green lines and a red cross arrow is a variable resistor. You adjust that to change the output voltage of the primary windings. You probably only need a few ohms of resistance. But that all depends on the design of the thing. Some control circuits will have maybe 3 or 4 resistors already in place and you connect to the one(s) that give the closest output voltage. Very low-tech :-) Personally, I would try to avoid disconnecting the excitation voltage then the thing is spinning. -Dave Walton On 9/20/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't need anything fancy to control the excitation voltage. I've seen everything from a diode and a resistor, to a microprocessor board with fuzzy logic that also controls the throttle. Here is a basic troubleshooting guide: http://utterpower.com/Trouble.htm Thanks, I'd already found that guide, which was helpful. The thing I don't understand is the two different excitation windings that seem to feed the regulator. FYI - I have a 15kw China Genset and get 15 ohms between the rings on the rotor. I show no reading (infinite resistance) between the rotor winding and ground. Yeah, I suspect that there's something wrong there. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
that is used only for powering the rotor. You don't need a special winding and can power the rotor from one of the primary windings - but you have to lower the voltage a lot and there is enough current that you need a regulated switching power supply, or some kind of big-ass resistor. Either it's unregulated (manually regulated via rheostat), or there is an active voltage regulator, or you use one a special harmonic (?) winding to power the rotor. You can't just step down the primary output to feed the rotor. What is confusing to me is why _my_ generator appears to have two windings going to the regulator. That makes a total of five windings, plus the rotor. (Plus the winding in the engine for charging its battery.) Two 120V primaries, one 12V battery charger, and the two excitation windings. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
I stopped by another hardware store yesterday (my fourth try!) and bought two tool brushes that look like they're about the right size. $7.60, we'll see if it was wasted money. (Three stores had nothing at all, the fourth had four plastic bins of them.) The new brushes are 1/4x3/16x3/4, they're only about 3/16 longer than the ones they're replacing. I cut off the old brush tails and soldered the new ones in their places. They're a tiny bit looser than the originals in one direction, but they're the best I could do on short notice. They should be more than good enough to prove whether the rest of the generator works or not. I wrapped sandpaper around a paint can cap to rub the new brushes against to get some curve to them to better match the slip rings. Moment of truth time! I put the repaired brush pack in, flashed the field winding, and started it. Nothing. When I fed +12V into the field I got about 20V out of the generator. I measured the DC field output of the regulator under those conditions and got 28V or more. Is it possible this generator needs higher than +12V field for operation? If so, it's certainly not getting it on its own. Disgusted, I did manage to turn the battery around. The positive cable is definitely too short, but I managed to make it reach anyway. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
The field, interestingly enough, measures some resistance to frame ground from each terminal, it is _not_ isolated. I'm thinking that's not a good sign. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
- Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] I stopped by another hardware store yesterday (my fourth try!) and bought two tool brushes that look like they're about the right size. $7.60, we'll see if it was wasted money. (Three stores had nothing at all, the fourth had four plastic bins of them.) The new brushes are 1/4x3/16x3/4, they're only about 3/16 longer than the ones they're replacing. I cut off the old brush tails and soldered the new ones in their places. They're a tiny bit looser than the originals in one direction, but they're the best I could do on short notice. They should be more than good enough to prove whether the rest of the generator works or not. I wrapped sandpaper around a paint can cap to rub the new brushes against to get some curve to them to better match the slip rings. Moment of truth time! I put the repaired brush pack in, flashed the field winding, and started it. Nothing. When I fed +12V into the field I got about 20V out of the generator. I measured the DC field output of the regulator under those conditions and got 28V or more. Is it possible this generator needs higher than +12V field for operation? If so, it's certainly not getting it on its own. Disgusted, I did manage to turn the battery around. The positive cable is definitely too short, but I managed to make it reach anyway. -- Jim --- Did you check to see if the windings might be shorted to ground? Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Did you check to see if the windings might be shorted to ground? It looks like the center of the field winding might be, each slip ring measures in the 5-9 ohm range to frame ground. I'm guessing that's not good? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Well I have had 3 2.5 turbos with the panels there. I am not sure why they would be different, the chassis is the same. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730 FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset On 9/17/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The description says it's super quite with the enclosure on---so how quite is it really, compared to an idling 603 with the hood down, say? Does your 603 have intact belly pans? Makes quite a diff! :-) That's funny. Tell me another one! ;) Seriously, I have NEVER seen a 603 with intact belly pans. Neither of the two '87 300Ds I've owned, nor any of the dozen or so 300Ds and 300SDLs I've happened to glance under in the ten years or so since I contracted dieselitis, have had them still installed. I can't imagine that used ones would be worth bothering with, and I am too cheap to pay for new replacements, although I have been curious for a while whether the panels from the 300D 2.5 could be made to fit since they're much cheaper. Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo et al. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
I pulled the other end off the generator's housing, which required removing a lot of bolts and both mufflers. No, it's not bad rotating diodes. This is not a brushLESS generator! It has brushes, and when I put the Fluke on them and spun the motor over by hand the resistance varied wildly, and was even open-circuit at times. When I pulled the brush pack they seemed a little short to me. So, the brushes are too short and/or worn out. Maybe I'll try getting some at the hardware store and try to install them. With the end panel removed it was also obvious that the battery is installed wrong way around. The retention strap is not centered, and is wanting to pull into the terminals. I'll try turning it around so the terminals are on the opposite side as the retention strap, but if I recall correctly the positive cable is a bit short to reach. We'll see. When I tried the service phone number it was busy. Figures. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
That is great news. The brushless gen heads I've seen have all been low-end. The ones with brushes last forever - as long as you replace the brushes as needed. If you are lucky, there are oil ports on the bearings. Chances are you can match up the bearings with something from Timken (http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/) if and when you need to. The Chinese ST generator heads have been known to last for decades of constant use with little maintenance. -Dave Walton On 9/17/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I pulled the other end off the generator's housing, which required removing a lot of bolts and both mufflers. No, it's not bad rotating diodes. This is not a brushLESS generator! It has brushes, and when I put the Fluke on them and spun the motor over by hand the resistance varied wildly, and was even open-circuit at times. When I pulled the brush pack they seemed a little short to me. So, the brushes are too short and/or worn out. Maybe I'll try getting some at the hardware store and try to install them. With the end panel removed it was also obvious that the battery is installed wrong way around. The retention strap is not centered, and is wanting to pull into the terminals. I'll try turning it around so the terminals are on the opposite side as the retention strap, but if I recall correctly the positive cable is a bit short to reach. We'll see. When I tried the service phone number it was busy. Figures. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
The description says it's super quite with the enclosure on---so how quite is it really, compared to an idling 603 with the hood down, say? This is pretty much the kind I was looking at for a whole-house emergency backup system. Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo et al. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
The description says it's super quite with the enclosure on---so how quite is it really, compared to an idling 603 with the hood down, say? I wouldn't say that it's really all that quiet, but I was surprised at how unobjectionable the noise it did make was. That enclosure works, to be sure. It's a lot quieter than the usual rope-pull generattle, even though it's a diesel. Obviously I haven't tested it under load! Does your 603 have intact belly pans? Makes quite a diff! :-) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On 9/17/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The description says it's super quite with the enclosure on---so how quite is it really, compared to an idling 603 with the hood down, say? Does your 603 have intact belly pans? Makes quite a diff! :-) That's funny. Tell me another one! ;) Seriously, I have NEVER seen a 603 with intact belly pans. Neither of the two '87 300Ds I've owned, nor any of the dozen or so 300Ds and 300SDLs I've happened to glance under in the ten years or so since I contracted dieselitis, have had them still installed. I can't imagine that used ones would be worth bothering with, and I am too cheap to pay for new replacements, although I have been curious for a while whether the panels from the 300D 2.5 could be made to fit since they're much cheaper. Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo et al. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Seriously, I have NEVER seen a 603 with intact belly pans. Our SDL had the rear pan, but not the front. I fabricated a replacement and it made a noticeable difference in the exterior noise at idle. Drive-throughs, etc. -- JHim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
If it has an ST-style induction generator head (popular with Chinese gensets), you need some residual magnetism in the rotor to generate enough current to energize the feedback circuit that controls the voltage output. It feeds some of the output voltage back to the rotor to create the magnetic field used to generate power. The power output comes from the stationary coils in the housing, not the rotor. If it's been sitting for years or you let the rotor spin down while under load, you will lose the residual magnetism. If you apply load before it's up to speed you can dissipate the magnetic field and you get no output. Either way, the solution is to apply 12V to the rotor for just a fraction of a second to magnetise it, then start it up with no load. Polarity does not matter. Just make sure you are applying voltage on the rotor side of the regulation circuit, or remove the plate and use two alligator clip leads connected directly to the brushes. If you don't see a little spark when you magnetize the rotor, then something is wrong and you might want to check with an ohmMeter to make sure the brushes are making contact. You should only have a few ohms of resistance. The same thing happens if you way overload it when it's running. You usually won't burn it out, it just stops creating current. Some of the genheads have 2 sets of rings (4 total). If that is the case, look at the connections to see which two are wired in parallel. Apply voltage across the ones not wired together. -Dave Walton On 9/15/07, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First I checked the oil. It had some. Next I checked the battery, it was dead and drew no charging current. I went and got a car battery and a set of jumper cables and hooked it up. The key then worked, but the engine only turned over a few times before it 'stalled'. I pulled the end cover off the housing and spun the motor back so the starter could get a 'run' at it, then it turned over again. It cranked a lot but no fire. There wasn't much fuel in the tank. I poured in the 2 gallons I had in a can and cranked again. (Sometimes I had to roll the motor backwards again.) Eventually it started firing intermittently, and with more cranking and running attempts it finally got up 'on plane' and ran. Not all that noisy, even with the covers off. Once it had run a few times it started easily with the key. I'm sure being warm helped, as did getting all the air purged from the fuel system. The set takes a long time to spin down when turned off. There's a spring-loaded red lever behind the access hatch that applies throttle. If you hit the release lever it drops to, or below, idle and stops. There is also a red lever on top that I don't know the purpose of. It can only be accessed with the box's end cover taken off. There is no voltage output, either AC or DC. I checked the wiring and such inside the cabinet, and there were no obvious faults or burned items. The regulator is potted, so that's not very handy. There is an exposed power diode bridge, but it checks out OK. There are no specs or schematics that I can find, I'm not sure where to look next. There's an odd heat-sinked box separate from the regulator that hooks to a pair of green wires that come out of the flywheel area. It has an inline fuse hooked to it, which I checked. Also good. There are a lot of wires. It's a mystery. Perhaps I've just purchased a one-lunged diesel motor for $400? Still not a bad deal! When I took the big battery off I found that the little one was now taking a charge. We'll see if it recovers enough to be usable. It, not fully charged, wasn't (yet) able to fight the engine's compression enough to turn over. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
If it has an ST-style induction generator head (popular with Chinese gensets), you need some residual magnetism...to the brushes... I was all excited there (pun intended), except the online brochure for the product claims brushless construction. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Just because it's brushless doesn't mean it can't be flashed externally or has no residual - both types of design rely on some sort of bootstrap arrangement to get things going. OK. I have three candidates for windings: 17 ohm, 1.2 ohm, and 0.6 ohm. I've already fed power through a test light to the 17 ohm one, while it was running, and nothing voltilicious happened. This particular unit has battery voltage available, it needn't have relied on residual magnetism. But the left hand often knows not what the right hand is doing. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
Just because it's brushless doesn't mean it can't be flashed externally or has no residual - both types of design rely on some sort of bootstrap arrangement to get things going. If you find the field windings, you can put 12V to them to get the generator to produce output. Based on the field voltage, it may or may not produce rated voltage, but that's not the point of the exercise - it's to determine if, in fact, the generator will produce output if it's got excitation. Dan --- Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it has an ST-style induction generator head (popular with Chinese gensets), you need some residual magnetism...to the brushes... I was all excited there (pun intended), except the online brochure for the product claims brushless construction. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
I flashed the windings (3) with 12V from the battery charger. Sadly, no change. On the plus side the battery had stopped taking a charge, and though it was a cool morning it fired right up. I did use the compression release this time. Dare I use the phone number For Information or Service on the front? 1-888-896-6881, could it be as simple as that? I reached Pacific Power Service Center, but its hours are M-F 7-4 PST. I'll have to try again tomorrow. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:45:59 -0700 Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I flashed the windings (3) with 12V from the battery charger. Sadly, no change. :-( On the plus side the battery had stopped taking a charge, and though it was a cool morning it fired right up. I did use the compression release this time. :-) Dare I use the phone number For Information or Service on the front? Sure, why not? 1-888-896-6881, could it be as simple as that? It could. I reached Pacific Power Service Center, but its hours are M-F 7-4 PST. I'll have to try again tomorrow. Sure will. And I'm sure you'll let us know what you find out. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
First I checked the oil. It had some. Next I checked the battery, it was dead and drew no charging current. I went and got a car battery and a set of jumper cables and hooked it up. The key then worked, but the engine only turned over a few times before it 'stalled'. I pulled the end cover off the housing and spun the motor back so the starter could get a 'run' at it, then it turned over again. It cranked a lot but no fire. There wasn't much fuel in the tank. I poured in the 2 gallons I had in a can and cranked again. (Sometimes I had to roll the motor backwards again.) Eventually it started firing intermittently, and with more cranking and running attempts it finally got up 'on plane' and ran. Not all that noisy, even with the covers off. Once it had run a few times it started easily with the key. I'm sure being warm helped, as did getting all the air purged from the fuel system. The set takes a long time to spin down when turned off. There's a spring-loaded red lever behind the access hatch that applies throttle. If you hit the release lever it drops to, or below, idle and stops. There is also a red lever on top that I don't know the purpose of. It can only be accessed with the box's end cover taken off. There is no voltage output, either AC or DC. I checked the wiring and such inside the cabinet, and there were no obvious faults or burned items. The regulator is potted, so that's not very handy. There is an exposed power diode bridge, but it checks out OK. There are no specs or schematics that I can find, I'm not sure where to look next. There's an odd heat-sinked box separate from the regulator that hooks to a pair of green wires that come out of the flywheel area. It has an inline fuse hooked to it, which I checked. Also good. There are a lot of wires. It's a mystery. Perhaps I've just purchased a one-lunged diesel motor for $400? Still not a bad deal! When I took the big battery off I found that the little one was now taking a charge. We'll see if it recovers enough to be usable. It, not fully charged, wasn't (yet) able to fight the engine's compression enough to turn over. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
If that's one of those chinese diesels, one of those little red levers is most likely a compression release . You hold that down while first cranking and it allows the engine to spin a little faster, then you let off as it starts to catch ( at least it works that way on some of them ) -Robert im Cathey wrote: First I checked the oil. It had some. Next I checked the battery, it was dead and drew no charging current. I went and got a car battery and a set of jumper cables and hooked it up. The key then worked, but the engine only turned over a few times before it 'stalled'. I pulled the end cover off the housing and spun the motor back so the starter could get a 'run' at it, then it turned over again. It cranked a lot but no fire. There wasn't much fuel in the tank. I poured in the 2 gallons I had in a can and cranked again. (Sometimes I had to roll the motor backwards again.) Eventually it started firing intermittently, and with more cranking and running attempts it finally got up 'on plane' and ran. Not all that noisy, even with the covers off. Once it had run a few times it started easily with the key. I'm sure being warm helped, as did getting all the air purged from the fuel system. The set takes a long time to spin down when turned off. There's a spring-loaded red lever behind the access hatch that applies throttle. If you hit the release lever it drops to, or below, idle and stops. There is also a red lever on top that I don't know the purpose of. It can only be accessed with the box's end cover taken off. There is no voltage output, either AC or DC. I checked the wiring and such inside the cabinet, and there were no obvious faults or burned items. The regulator is potted, so that's not very handy. There is an exposed power diode bridge, but it checks out OK. There are no specs or schematics that I can find, I'm not sure where to look next. There's an odd heat-sinked box separate from the regulator that hooks to a pair of green wires that come out of the flywheel area. It has an inline fuse hooked to it, which I checked. Also good. There are a lot of wires. It's a mystery. Perhaps I've just purchased a one-lunged diesel motor for $400? Still not a bad deal! When I took the big battery off I found that the little one was now taking a charge. We'll see if it recovers enough to be usable. It, not fully charged, wasn't (yet) able to fight the engine's compression enough to turn over. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT: 5kW Chinese Genset
If that's one of those chinese diesels, one of those little red levers is most likely a compression release . You hold that down while first cranking and it allows the engine to spin a little faster, then you let off as it starts to catch ( at least it works that way on some of them ) It's in the right place for one of those, but there's no way to actuate it without partially disassembling the enclosure! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
