Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Dan Penoff]

I paid $400 for my 2006 Mac Pro (1,1) about a year ago. That included the SSD 
for the boot drive..

Mine has the original dual processors that I can easily upgrade to quads for 
about $75 total, if I wish. I haven't done it yet, as I find it to be more than 
adequate for my needs as-is. Upgrading won't make it significantly faster for 
day to day use anyway, as most programs are not written for multi threading. 
The one place that would make a difference would be is rendering video, for 
example.

Great machines and very versatile. I love mine.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 21, 2014, at 1:25 AM, Gary Hurst  wrote:
> 
> i see myself replacing the G5 powermac with a mac pro within the next year
> or so
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Dan Penoff  wrote:
>> 
>> If you're really serious about a second or third generation Mac anything,
>> I would highly recommend buying a refurb from Apple.
>> 
>> Nearly every Apple product I have purchased in the last 20 years has been
>> a refurb. When you get them they are impossible to discern between a brand
>> new product, and you get the benefit of a full "new" product warranty along
>> with the ability to purchase AppleCare, if you wish.
>> 
>> The only difference between new and refurbs is the packaging, as some
>> refurbished product will not come in retail packaging.
>> 
>> That being said, I am really disappointed in the newer iMacs, as they are
>> pretty much BTO machines with no possibility for upgrading.  They are
>> prohibitively expensive new, too.
>> 
>> I am running on a 2006 Mac Pro with 12GB of RAM, four drives (boot drive
>> is a 128 GB SSD) and dual monitors running OSX 10.7 (Lion).
>> 
>> Works great for me and does everything I want and more.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
 On Mar 20, 2014, at 5:52 PM, Rich Thomas <
>>> richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have one, it is very nice display.  I bought some extra memory for it
>> and bumped it up to 16Gb.
>>> 
>>> I had another display, 23" or so I got fairly cheep and hooked it up
>> too.  The only thing annoying about it is that all the connections are on
>> the back and they are hard to reach and figure out what is what, I got a
>> powered 10-USB box and use that to plug stuff in.  The power switch, which
>> I seldom need to use, is also in stealth mode on the back.
>>> 
>>> Definitely worth $1k.
>>> 
>>> --R
>>> 
>>> 
 On 3/20/14 11:59 AM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
 Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
 totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably
>> 2010)
 on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other european cars*
> *www.BuyEUROparts.com *
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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Gary Hurst]

i see myself replacing the G5 powermac with a mac pro within the next year
or so


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Dan Penoff  wrote:

> If you're really serious about a second or third generation Mac anything,
> I would highly recommend buying a refurb from Apple.
>
> Nearly every Apple product I have purchased in the last 20 years has been
> a refurb. When you get them they are impossible to discern between a brand
> new product, and you get the benefit of a full "new" product warranty along
> with the ability to purchase AppleCare, if you wish.
>
> The only difference between new and refurbs is the packaging, as some
> refurbished product will not come in retail packaging.
>
> That being said, I am really disappointed in the newer iMacs, as they are
> pretty much BTO machines with no possibility for upgrading.  They are
> prohibitively expensive new, too.
>
> I am running on a 2006 Mac Pro with 12GB of RAM, four drives (boot drive
> is a 128 GB SSD) and dual monitors running OSX 10.7 (Lion).
>
> Works great for me and does everything I want and more.
>
> Dan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Mar 20, 2014, at 5:52 PM, Rich Thomas <
> richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:
> >
> > I have one, it is very nice display.  I bought some extra memory for it
> and bumped it up to 16Gb.
> >
> > I had another display, 23" or so I got fairly cheep and hooked it up
> too.  The only thing annoying about it is that all the connections are on
> the back and they are hard to reach and figure out what is what, I got a
> powered 10-USB box and use that to plug stuff in.  The power switch, which
> I seldom need to use, is also in stealth mode on the back.
> >
> > Definitely worth $1k.
> >
> > --R
> >
> >
> >> On 3/20/14 11:59 AM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
> >> Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
> >> totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably
> 2010)
> >> on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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-- 


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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Rich Thomas]

You are a Hoosier now? You got the job in the Bend?

--R (sent from my miniPad)

On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Craig  wrote:

On Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:13:02 -0400 Tim Crone  wrote:

> On a related note, anyone have a disc-based backup application they can
> recommend?  Tape is a little pricey, and honestly I don't have that
> much to back up - but it would need to span multiple DVDs.

rsync (I can send you some scripts for that) or a Blue-Ray writer.

I use rsync all the time to synchronize computers (and even our laptop to
our main computer before we came here to Indiana) and to back up on an
external USB disk. Works great.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Craig]

On Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:13:02 -0400 Tim Crone  wrote:

> On a related note, anyone have a disc-based backup application they can
> recommend?  Tape is a little pricey, and honestly I don't have that
> much to back up - but it would need to span multiple DVDs.

rsync (I can send you some scripts for that) or a Blue-Ray writer.

I use rsync all the time to synchronize computers (and even our laptop to
our main computer before we came here to Indiana) and to back up on an
external USB disk. Works great.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Max Dillon]

Thanks Craig, I'll take a look at that option too

On March 20, 2014 8:42:28 PM EDT, Craig  wrote:
>
>Or, you could burn a copy of SystemRescueCD and boot the computer from
>it
>to look around to see what's available without removing the disk.
>
>
>Craig

-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston, SC

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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Craig]

On Thu, 20 Mar 2014 13:22:28 -0400 Max Dillon 
wrote:

> Richard - thanks for the idea.  That may be an option - I suspect that
> the problem is with the OS files - their location(s) on the HD may be
> corrupted. If true, then I may be able to get to the user files.

Or, you could burn a copy of SystemRescueCD and boot the computer from it
to look around to see what's available without removing the disk.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[clay]

Macbooks up until 2009 do not run OS past 10.7.  The newer laptops run 
Mavericks.  The more powerful the processor, the longer the legs.   The macbook 
pro of 2007 is Mavericks capable.  Probably the same logicboard as used in the 
2007 iMac

clay

On Mar 20, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Curt Raymond wrote:

> Back in 2010 or so I taught a class at Brooklyn College which has a media lab 
> of 40 27" iMacs. Apple has always made (well had made for them) beautiful 
> screens and these are no exception.
> The only problem is that Apple is sure to leave them behind soon. At the 4 
> year old point they MIGHT run 10.9 which is the current OS, I'd bet they 
> won't run whatever comes next.
> 
> Sure the same is probably true of 2010 hardware and Windows 9 but the 
> difference is that Microsoft is going to continue to support Win7 for a 
> couple more years while Apple regularly drops its old OS releases like a hot 
> potato.
> 
> I have a 24" Viewsonic monitor on my PC that I'm very happy with. Cost around 
> $250 IIRC.
> 
> -Curt
> 
> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 11:59:11 -0400
> From: Andrew Strasfogel 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery
> utility
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> No, but I have a computer related OT question.
> 
> Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
> totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably 2010)
> on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?
> ___
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[clay]

These do make great sense, but why the all in one instead of a tower?  Mac Pro 
is far more upgradable and longer lived.  The iMacs are Core i series.  The big 
one should be either i5 or i7.  Apple sees all of 16 gig of ram, but holds 32.  
Biggest issue for my money is the screen failing due to crap capacitors.

Tower holds 48 gig, and uses the Xeon quad and 8-12 core chips.  Instead of a 
single drive, you have the opportunity for four drives and you can RAID them.  
As long as the video card is working, you can upgrade the monitor and dual 
display DVI or mini port.  One gig of VRAM to the 512mb in the iMac.

The iMac is a wonderful desktop replacement.

clay


On Mar 20, 2014, at 8:59 AM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

> No, but I have a computer related OT question.
> 
> Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
> totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably 2010)
> on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Max Dillon wrote:
> 
>> Anyone have any experience with this utility?
>> 
>> https://www.grc.com/default.htm
>> 
>> I bought a copy to try on a friend's computer which has a hard drive
>> failure, but learned that a typical Dell tower has a BIOS version (A04)
>> which is not compatible, and Dell has not released an upgrade.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Very respectfully,
>> /s/
>> Max Dillon
>> '87 300TD 334k miles (Off with the head!)
>> '95 E300 336k miles (daily driving duties)
>> '73 Balboa 20 (High & dry until the head is back on)
>> Charleston SC
>> ___
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>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Dan Penoff]

If you're really serious about a second or third generation Mac anything, I 
would highly recommend buying a refurb from Apple.

Nearly every Apple product I have purchased in the last 20 years has been a 
refurb. When you get them they are impossible to discern between a brand new 
product, and you get the benefit of a full "new" product warranty along with 
the ability to purchase AppleCare, if you wish.

The only difference between new and refurbs is the packaging, as some 
refurbished product will not come in retail packaging.

That being said, I am really disappointed in the newer iMacs, as they are 
pretty much BTO machines with no possibility for upgrading.  They are 
prohibitively expensive new, too.

I am running on a 2006 Mac Pro with 12GB of RAM, four drives (boot drive is a 
128 GB SSD) and dual monitors running OSX 10.7 (Lion).

Works great for me and does everything I want and more.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 20, 2014, at 5:52 PM, Rich Thomas 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have one, it is very nice display.  I bought some extra memory for it and 
> bumped it up to 16Gb.
> 
> I had another display, 23" or so I got fairly cheep and hooked it up too.  
> The only thing annoying about it is that all the connections are on the back 
> and they are hard to reach and figure out what is what, I got a powered 
> 10-USB box and use that to plug stuff in.  The power switch, which I seldom 
> need to use, is also in stealth mode on the back.
> 
> Definitely worth $1k.
> 
> --R
> 
> 
>> On 3/20/14 11:59 AM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
>> Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
>> totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably 2010)
>> on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Peter Frederick]

Spinrite can be quite useful, but you need to run it BEFORE the drive  
craps.  It cannot do anything with a drive that will not initialize,  
will not read, or is not rotating properly.


That said I've rescued a few drives and data with it.

Anadisk was quite a good thing back in the day, but it does not  
support hard drives.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Rich Thomas]

I have one, it is very nice display.  I bought some extra memory for it 
and bumped it up to 16Gb.


I had another display, 23" or so I got fairly cheep and hooked it up 
too.  The only thing annoying about it is that all the connections are 
on the back and they are hard to reach and figure out what is what, I 
got a powered 10-USB box and use that to plug stuff in.  The power 
switch, which I seldom need to use, is also in stealth mode on the back.


Definitely worth $1k.

--R


On 3/20/14 11:59 AM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably 2010)
on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?



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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Tim Crone]

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Max Dillon wrote:

> Anyone have any experience with this utility?
>
> https://www.grc.com/default.htm
>
> I bought a copy to try on a friend's computer which has a hard drive
> failure, but learned that a typical Dell tower has a BIOS version (A04)
> which is not compatible, and Dell has not released an upgrade.
>

I have not used SpinRite.  Also, I don't like Gibson, he always writes in a
way that puts me off.  That said he has a good reputation as a smart guy.

I have done something like this:
http://smarttechtips.blogspot.com/2012/08/how-to-make-bootable-ms-dos-thumb-drive.html

Usually, however, I end up booting a Linux LiveCD, and then copying stuff
onto a USB drive.

On a related note, anyone have a disc-based backup application they can
recommend?  Tape is a little pricey, and honestly I don't have that much to
back up - but it would need to span multiple DVDs.

Best,
Tim
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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Tim Crone]

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Strasfogel
wrote:

> No, but I have a computer related OT question.
>
> Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
> totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably 2010)
> on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?
>

I once looked at repairing one for a friend, hard drive failed shortly
after a year and the Apple Store told them to pound sand.  It is standard
SATA so I gave them an extra, but I was surprised as I thought Apple was
supposed to have exceptional support.

It is not hard to get apart, kind of like taking apart an older touchscreen
phone (think Windows Mobile era) - takes a bit of care that you don't break
anything, and you have to be neat and organized, but not impossible.

I would rather have a case, personally.

Best,
Tim
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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Max Dillon]

Did you ever use SpinRite?



On March 20, 2014 1:46:32 PM EDT, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>Back in 2010 or so I taught a class at Brooklyn College which has a
>media lab of 40 27" iMacs. Apple has ...
-- 
Max Dillon
(trying to regain control of my thread after Andrew hijacked it)
Charleston, SC

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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Curt Raymond]

Back in 2010 or so I taught a class at Brooklyn College which has a media lab 
of 40 27" iMacs. Apple has always made (well had made for them) beautiful 
screens and these are no exception.
The only problem is that Apple is sure to leave them behind soon. At the 4 year 
old point they MIGHT run 10.9 which is the current OS, I'd bet they won't run 
whatever comes next.

Sure the same is probably true of 2010 hardware and Windows 9 but the 
difference is that Microsoft is going to continue to support Win7 for a couple 
more years while Apple regularly drops its old OS releases like a hot potato.

I have a 24" Viewsonic monitor on my PC that I'm very happy with. Cost around 
$250 IIRC.

-Curt

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 11:59:11 -0400
From: Andrew Strasfogel 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery
    utility
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

No, but I have a computer related OT question.

Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably 2010)
on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?
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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Max Dillon]

Richard - thanks for the idea.  That may be an option - I suspect that the 
problem is with the OS files - their location(s) on the HD may be corrupted. If 
true, then I may be able to get to the user files.


On March 20, 2014 12:51:23 PM EDT, Richard Hattaway  
wrote:
>I'll elaborate although I did not read or see the first post... 
>
>I've had great luck with data recovery using only a simple USB adapter
>that's available from many different computer outlets.. You plug it
>into the drive in question ( removed from the computer, obviously ) and
>into a USB port on a functioning computer.. and then pull the data you
>seek.
>
>Obviously it wont help on drives that are damaged so they won't spin,
>or in some other way non functional.  However, if the loss is a result
>of a digital slight of hand performed by the computer, then your files
>are there for the taking.
>
>I hope this is remotely on subject..  
>
>

-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston, SC

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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Richard Hattaway]

I'll elaborate although I did not read or see the first post... 

I've had great luck with data recovery using only a simple USB adapter that's 
available from many different computer outlets.. You plug it into the drive in 
question ( removed from the computer, obviously ) and into a USB port on a 
functioning computer.. and then pull the data you seek.

Obviously it wont help on drives that are damaged so they won't spin, or in 
some other way non functional.  However, if the loss is a result of a digital 
slight of hand performed by the computer, then your files are there for the 
taking.

I hope this is remotely on subject..  





On Thursday, March 20, 2014 12:44 PM, Andrew Strasfogel  
wrote:
 
Please elaborate - do you have bad childhood memories related to Apples or
apples?

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Max Dillon wrote:

> No no no, not apple talk.  Andrew please start your own thread...
>
> SpinRite - anybody
>
>
>
> Very respectfully,
> /s/
> Max Dillon
> '87 300TD 334k miles (Off with the head!)
> '95 E300 336k miles (daily driving duties)
> '73 Balboa 20 (High & dry until the head is back on)
> Charleston SC
>
>
> 
> ___
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>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Andrew Strasfogel]

Please elaborate - do you have bad childhood memories related to Apples or
apples?

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Max Dillon wrote:

> No no no, not apple talk.  Andrew please start your own thread...
>
> SpinRite - anybody
>
>
>
> Very respectfully,
> /s/
> Max Dillon
> '87 300TD 334k miles (Off with the head!)
> '95 E300 336k miles (daily driving duties)
> '73 Balboa 20 (High & dry until the head is back on)
> Charleston SC
>
>
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Max Dillon]

No no no, not apple talk.  Andrew please start your own thread...

SpinRite - anybody


 
Very respectfully,
/s/
Max Dillon
'87 300TD 334k miles (Off with the head!)
'95 E300 336k miles (daily driving duties)
'73 Balboa 20 (High & dry until the head is back on)
Charleston SC



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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Randy Bennell]

My elder son Geoff has one and loves it. He is a convert to Apple as his 
wife has had Apple laptops and he has grown to like them.


My nephew Greg also has one and loves it.

No issues that I am aware of.

Randy

On 20/03/2014 10:59 AM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

No, but I have a computer related OT question.

Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably 2010)
on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?



On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Max Dillon wrote:


Anyone have any experience with this utility?

https://www.grc.com/default.htm

I bought a copy to try on a friend's computer which has a hard drive
failure, but learned that a typical Dell tower has a BIOS version (A04)
which is not compatible, and Dell has not released an upgrade.



Very respectfully,
/s/
Max Dillon
'87 300TD 334k miles (Off with the head!)
'95 E300 336k miles (daily driving duties)
'73 Balboa 20 (High & dry until the head is back on)
Charleston SC
___
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To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Andrew Strasfogel]

No, but I have a computer related OT question.

Does anyone own an IMac with the 27" monitor?  Happy with it?  They seem
totally droolworthy so I am considering getting a used one (probably 2010)
on ebay for under $1000.  Does this make any sense?



On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Max Dillon wrote:

> Anyone have any experience with this utility?
>
> https://www.grc.com/default.htm
>
> I bought a copy to try on a friend's computer which has a hard drive
> failure, but learned that a typical Dell tower has a BIOS version (A04)
> which is not compatible, and Dell has not released an upgrade.
>
>
>
> Very respectfully,
> /s/
> Max Dillon
> '87 300TD 334k miles (Off with the head!)
> '95 E300 336k miles (daily driving duties)
> '73 Balboa 20 (High & dry until the head is back on)
> Charleston SC
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

[MBZ] OT 'puter stuff: SpinRite hard disk recovery utility

[Max Dillon]

Anyone have any experience with this utility?

https://www.grc.com/default.htm

I bought a copy to try on a friend's computer which has a hard drive failure, 
but learned that a typical Dell tower has a BIOS version (A04) which is not 
compatible, and Dell has not released an upgrade.


 
Very respectfully,
/s/
Max Dillon
'87 300TD 334k miles (Off with the head!)
'95 E300 336k miles (daily driving duties)
'73 Balboa 20 (High & dry until the head is back on)
Charleston SC
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com