Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
Sounds like most of you were operating small aircraft at small strips. I know from experience that when you are at a big airport and getting out quickly is required, a turn from taxiway to runway at max speed is often done and you just slap the throttles to the firewall. The no reason to check gene kicks in, since you know you are on the correct runway -- V1 and V2 are way more important at that point than runway heading on the mag compass. On 9/8/06, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now THAT sounds like fun! When there was a new guy handling operations at the field, some of the older glider pilots liked to drop low on final and fly over the swamp, then up the hill to the runway in ground effect. From the ops cart they would disappear completely for a few seconds. Never failed to get a strong reaction. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives. Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.
[MBZ] OT - Comair crash
'Had to abort major mission across north pole on B-52H 33 yrs ago 'cause heading system and radar scope presentation differed by 2 degrees from correct runway orientation when when we took runway. B-52H then had very good and accurate heading and bombing/navigation stabilization system, but when it went wrong, it could be VERY wrong. I would not start into high arctic with erroneous system. At least a cursory rolling heading check when Comair took runway may have saved 49 lives and more. Wilton
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
Also to add, there are protocol to follow between tower and the pilot. The control tower is the boss and instructions are given and a response is required, and a confirmation to confirm both parties understand the instructions This policy was established to prevent mis-understand between two parties and to prevent accidents . Business often use it but you get the human condition to GO on the first word, and disaster sometimes happens . We are not robots to follow instructions all the time . human error . should be computerized to remove the human error Bill 1981 300 TD LT Don wrote: Sounds like most of you were operating small aircraft at small strips. I know from experience that when you are at a big airport and getting out quickly is required, a turn from taxiway to runway at max speed is often done and you just slap the throttles to the firewall. The no reason to check gene kicks in, since you know you are on the correct runway -- V1 and V2 are way more important at that point than runway heading on the mag compass. On 9/8/06, OK Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now THAT sounds like fun! When there was a new guy handling operations at the field, some of the older glider pilots liked to drop low on final and fly over the swamp, then up the hill to the runway in ground effect. From the ops cart they would disappear completely for a few seconds. Never failed to get a strong reaction. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives. Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
My understanding/experience is that once the tower says cleared for takeoff, runway x the ATC duties end until the pilot contacts departure after the climb out. On 9/8/06, Bill Gallagher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also to add, there are protocol to follow between tower and the pilot. The control tower is the boss and instructions are given and a response is required, and a confirmation to confirm both parties understand the instructions This policy was established to prevent mis-understand between two parties and to prevent accidents . Business often use it but you get the human condition to GO on the first word, and disaster sometimes happens . We are not robots to follow instructions all the time . human error . should be computerized to remove the human error Bill 1981 300 TD -- Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
I personally believe that there was some confusion at that particular site about which runway threshold was which -- they cross at about the start point on one of the runways, terrible design. I'm not a pilot, but I suspect it's not very common to watch directional heading (particularly on a mag compass!) while performing a take-off run, and I have a terrible feeling that the aircraft wasn't lined up exactly down the runway when the throttles were opened up and the pilot swung the rest of the way around onto the wrong centerline. I've been in far more than one commercial aircraft that wasn't pointed exactly down the centerline when acceleration started, swinging that last bit to straighten out and line up as the run started. Probably far too late to stop by the time the oops got noticed. Pretty horrible thought to imagine seeing the threshold marks appear in front of you just as you reach V1 I friend of mine who is a pilot thought they should have tried to stop, but I suspect a tree line at 120 knots while overrunning the runway would make me pull back on the stick and pray, too! The cockpit recorder should help find out what happened, and at least those two runways need to be separated with separate taxiways. Deregulation has not been good for the airline industry, neither is the lack of a national pension program that all businesses are required to participate in. Peter
[MBZ] OT - Comair crash
Has takeoff heading become unimportant? What happened to pausing after taking runway and before applying takeoff power to check heading, reset heading gyro as necessary, etc? Runway 22, aircraft magnetic heading should be 220. Runway 26, aircraft mag heading = 260, etc. If you think you're on 22, you're looking for heading 220, not 260. Wilton
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
You got that right pilot. First thing I learned in flying airplanes. This is your compass. This is your runway. This is your directional gyro. --R wilton strickland wrote: Has takeoff heading become unimportant? What happened to pausing after taking runway and before applying takeoff power to check heading, reset heading gyro as necessary, etc? Runway 22, aircraft magnetic heading should be 220. Runway 26, aircraft mag heading = 260, etc. If you think you're on 22, you're looking for heading 220, not 260. Wilton
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
Sheesh - most of the runways I flew off of didn't have anyplace to paint a number (grass) -- the only gyro I had was the TB indicator. We thought 1700 feet was plenty of runway (power line on the North end, Trees on the South end - that's how you knew which way you were pointed). You knew you were making a good landing when you could hear the tires in the grass before they touched the ground. My age is showing again --- On 9/7/06, Rich Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You got that right pilot. First thing I learned in flying airplanes. This is your compass. This is your runway. This is your directional gyro. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK ex - 1946 Cessna 140, N76915
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
OK Don wrote: Sheesh - most of the runways I flew off of didn't have anyplace to paint a number (grass) -- the only gyro I had was the TB indicator. I've flown gliders off grass runways. The compass didn't work too good until the wing runner levelled the ship, but I was pretty much guaranteed to take off from whatever runway the tow pilot had decided to take off from, anyway. ;) We thought 1700 feet was plenty of runway (power line on the North end, Trees on the South end - that's how you knew which way you were pointed). You knew you were making a good landing when you could hear the tires in the grass before they touched the ground. My age is showing again --- The tricky part, of course, is the grass hides holes and ruts really well. ;)
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
rumor has it that OK wrote: You knew you were making a good landing when you could hear the tires in the grass before they touched the ground. Either that on the grass needed to be mowed! -- Philip, from tall-grass prairie territory
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
They mowed the grass on your runways. Hell, here in Texas we keep it short with the prop. I thought all grass strips had the power line at one end and 80-foot trees at the other. Again, this IS Texas. Tom Potter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fmiser Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 1:21 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash rumor has it that OK wrote: You knew you were making a good landing when you could hear the tires in the grass before they touched the ground. Either that on the grass needed to be mowed! -- Philip, from tall-grass prairie territory ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
I flew the tow plane for a couple of years -- there were several students who did have other ideas about where we should have been going. That was the most exciting flying I ever did. I was pretty much guaranteed to take off from whatever runway the tow pilot had decided to take off from, anyway. ;) -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives. Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
Unfortunatly, the prop wasn't big enough to cut where the wheels ran. I did buy the airplane at an airport where the runway was three strips in the grass - they didn't mow it at all (Walters, OK). On 9/8/06, Fmiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: rumor has it that OK wrote: You knew you were making a good landing when you could hear the tires in the grass before they touched the ground. Either that on the grass needed to be mowed! -- Philip, from tall-grass prairie territory -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives. Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
It does seem that some of what we have heard about Texas is true BillR Don't even start on Florida ... It would take too many pages -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Potter, Tom E Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 8:18 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash They mowed the grass on your runways. Hell, here in Texas we keep it short with the prop. I thought all grass strips had the power line at one end and 80-foot trees at the other. Again, this IS Texas. Tom Potter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fmiser Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 1:21 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash rumor has it that OK wrote: You knew you were making a good landing when you could hear the tires in the grass before they touched the ground. Either that on the grass needed to be mowed! -- Philip, from tall-grass prairie territory ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] OT - Comair crash
I think even the ''whiskey compass would tell me I'm 40 degrees off DESIRED heading. (For the unfamliar, whiskey compass = very basic magnetic, last resort, compass - no gyro - suspended in alcohol, often mounted up in middle of windshield away from other instruments and stuff.) I think there's no excuse for taking off 40 degrees off DESIRED heading - numbers painted on runway, or not - in dark, or not, in weatther, or not. Wilton
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
OK Don wrote: I flew the tow plane for a couple of years -- there were several students who did have other ideas about where we should have been going. That was the most exciting flying I ever did. I bet. I have a lot of respect for tow pilots, considering the risk they take. Inattention by the glider pilot can quickly make them the tow pilot a passenger in their own airplane.
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
Potter, Tom E wrote: They mowed the grass on your runways. Hell, here in Texas we keep it short with the prop. I thought all grass strips had the power line at one end and 80-foot trees at the other. Again, this IS Texas. Ours had a power line and trees at one end, and dropped off into a swamp at the other. When there was a new guy handling operations at the field, some of the older glider pilots liked to drop low on final and fly over the swamp, then up the hill to the runway in ground effect. From the ops cart they would disappear completely for a few seconds. Never failed to get a strong reaction.
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
Well, you learn something every day - I don't remember seeing many trees in Texas ;-) On 9/8/06, Potter, Tom E [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They mowed the grass on your runways. Hell, here in Texas we keep it short with the prop. I thought all grass strips had the power line at one end and 80-foot trees at the other. Again, this IS Texas. Tom Potter -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives. Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OT - Comair crash
Now THAT sounds like fun! When there was a new guy handling operations at the field, some of the older glider pilots liked to drop low on final and fly over the swamp, then up the hill to the runway in ground effect. From the ops cart they would disappear completely for a few seconds. Never failed to get a strong reaction. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives. Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
