Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Hans Neureiter]

There is no provision to vote anyone "out", except impeachment.
Voting is choosing for the lesser evil.
The founding Fathers didn't get paid to be "Electorates".
The bitch that runs the local HOA gets $100 for every show (it's under
"adminstative expenses").
Can anyone imagine DC full of people on their own money?

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Peter Frederick wrote:

> I recommend voting them all out every election, that's the way it's
> supposed to work.  I don't think the Founding Father's intended for there
> to be a permanent ruling elite, quite the opposite in fact!
>
> Peter
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Fred Moir wrote:
>
> But but, these very congresspeople pass laws to exempt themselves from the
>> laws that WE must all comply with. Um, er, somethings not right here?
>> Vote the swine out!
>> (Opinions are like as..)
>>
>> Fred Moir
>> Lynn MA
>> Diesel preferred
>>
>>
>> On 12/12/2011 10:36 AM, Walt Zarnoch wrote:
>>
>>> But they're outside the law, didn't they teach you that?
>>>
>>> Walt
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Dieselhead<126die...@gmail.com**>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Try that "innocent until proven guilty" line with the IRS.


 Then, there is that awkward little principle of "innocent until proven
> guilty"... .. sure messes up a good vigilante hanging doesn't it
>

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-- 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Peter Frederick]

I recommend voting them all out every election, that's the way it's  
supposed to work.  I don't think the Founding Father's intended for  
there to be a permanent ruling elite, quite the opposite in fact!


Peter

On Dec 12, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Fred Moir wrote:

But but, these very congresspeople pass laws to exempt themselves  
from the laws that WE must all comply with. Um, er, somethings not  
right here?

Vote the swine out!
(Opinions are like as..)

Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred


On 12/12/2011 10:36 AM, Walt Zarnoch wrote:

But they're outside the law, didn't they teach you that?

Walt

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Dieselhead<126die...@gmail.com>   
wrote:



Try that "innocent until proven guilty" line with the IRS.


Then, there is that awkward little principle of "innocent until  
proven
guilty"... .. sure messes up a good vigilante hanging doesn't  
it


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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[G Mann]

Tried that get out of federal prison in 2078 and will pay off the fines
and penalties easily by 3055 just saying...
Ohhh.. I forgot the extra 40 yrs for contempt when I questioned the
legitimacy of the IRS judges birth... oops...

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Try that "innocent until proven guilty" line with the IRS.
>
>
>
>
>  Then, there is that awkward little principle of "innocent until proven
>> guilty"... .. sure messes up a good vigilante hanging doesn't it
>>
>> If I were a criminal politician, I would find a way to use that to my
>> advantage... like ummm Eric Holder and his "plauseable
>> deniability"
>> defense. or well like a few thousand other examples.
>>
>> Franklin:  "We have given you a Republic madam.. if you can keep it"
>>
>> Apparently, we didn't
>>
>> Grant...
>> AZ...
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Peter Frederick > >wrote:
>>
>>   There is that funny little notion of proof beyond reasonable doubt.
>>>  Personal opinion is just that,opinion.
>>>
>>>  Peter
>>>  On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:19 AM, G Mann wrote:
>>>
>>>  Since we are all a country with the rule of law, we have to charge them,
>>>
  arrest them, bail them, provide council for them, feed them, try them
  under
  the "speedy trial law", raise a jury, find an impartial judge who
 upholds
  the law, give actual proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, give them
 the
  right of appeal, listen to the news media [the court of public
  propaganda],
  plea bargain them, protect them in a country club prison, then release
  them
  after they write a book and sell their movie rights.

  If we were not a country of citizens with the rule of law, we would
 just
  hang the worthless treasonous bastards on sight...and be done with
 it...
  But, "we" could never do that. Yet.

  Rope it can be re-cycled... GO GREEN.hang more than one with
 the
  same rope...

  Congress: The only two houses in America than need Foreclosed.

  Grant...
  AZ...

  On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

  Dieselhead wrote:

>
>  About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.
>
>
>>
>>   I thought treason was a hanging offense.
>
>  Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Fred Moir]

But but, these very congresspeople pass laws to exempt themselves from 
the laws that WE must all comply with. Um, er, somethings not right here?

Vote the swine out!
(Opinions are like as..)

Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred


On 12/12/2011 10:36 AM, Walt Zarnoch wrote:

But they're outside the law, didn't they teach you that?

Walt

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Dieselhead<126die...@gmail.com>  wrote:
   

Try that "innocent until proven guilty" line with the IRS.

 

Then, there is that awkward little principle of "innocent until proven
guilty"... .. sure messes up a good vigilante hanging doesn't it


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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Walt Zarnoch]

But they're outside the law, didn't they teach you that?

Walt

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Try that "innocent until proven guilty" line with the IRS.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Then, there is that awkward little principle of "innocent until proven
>> guilty"... .. sure messes up a good vigilante hanging doesn't it
>>
>> If I were a criminal politician, I would find a way to use that to my
>> advantage... like ummm Eric Holder and his "plauseable
>> deniability"
>> defense. or well like a few thousand other examples.
>>
>> Franklin:  "We have given you a Republic madam.. if you can keep it"
>>
>> Apparently, we didn't
>>
>> Grant...
>> AZ...
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Peter Frederick
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  There is that funny little notion of proof beyond reasonable doubt.
>>>  Personal opinion is just that,opinion.
>>>
>>>  Peter
>>>  On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:19 AM, G Mann wrote:
>>>
>>>  Since we are all a country with the rule of law, we have to charge them,

  arrest them, bail them, provide council for them, feed them, try them
  under
  the "speedy trial law", raise a jury, find an impartial judge who
 upholds
  the law, give actual proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, give them
 the
  right of appeal, listen to the news media [the court of public
  propaganda],
  plea bargain them, protect them in a country club prison, then release
  them
  after they write a book and sell their movie rights.

  If we were not a country of citizens with the rule of law, we would
 just
  hang the worthless treasonous bastards on sight...and be done with
 it...
  But, "we" could never do that. Yet.

  Rope it can be re-cycled... GO GREEN.hang more than one with
 the
  same rope...

  Congress: The only two houses in America than need Foreclosed.

  Grant...
  AZ...

  On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

  Dieselhead wrote:
>
>
>  About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.
>
>>
>>
>  I thought treason was a hanging offense.
>
>  Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Dieselhead]

Try that "innocent until proven guilty" line with the IRS.





Then, there is that awkward little principle of "innocent until proven
guilty"... .. sure messes up a good vigilante hanging doesn't it

If I were a criminal politician, I would find a way to use that to my
advantage... like ummm Eric Holder and his "plauseable deniability"
defense. or well like a few thousand other examples.

Franklin:  "We have given you a Republic madam.. if you can keep it"

Apparently, we didn't

Grant...
AZ...

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Peter Frederick wrote:


 There is that funny little notion of proof beyond reasonable doubt.
  Personal opinion is just that,opinion.

 Peter
 On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:19 AM, G Mann wrote:

  Since we are all a country with the rule of law, we have to charge them,

 arrest them, bail them, provide council for them, feed them, try them
 under
 the "speedy trial law", raise a jury, find an impartial judge who upholds
 the law, give actual proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, give them the
 right of appeal, listen to the news media [the court of public
 propaganda],
 plea bargain them, protect them in a country club prison, then release
 them
 after they write a book and sell their movie rights.

 If we were not a country of citizens with the rule of law, we would just
 hang the worthless treasonous bastards on sight...and be done with it...
 But, "we" could never do that. Yet.

 Rope it can be re-cycled... GO GREEN.hang more than one with the
 same rope...

 Congress: The only two houses in America than need Foreclosed.

 Grant...
 AZ...

 On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

  Dieselhead wrote:


  About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.





 I thought treason was a hanging offense.

 Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[G Mann]

Then, there is that awkward little principle of "innocent until proven
guilty"... .. sure messes up a good vigilante hanging doesn't it

If I were a criminal politician, I would find a way to use that to my
advantage... like ummm Eric Holder and his "plauseable deniability"
defense. or well like a few thousand other examples.

Franklin:  "We have given you a Republic madam.. if you can keep it"

Apparently, we didn't

Grant...
AZ...

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Peter Frederick wrote:

> There is that funny little notion of proof beyond reasonable doubt.
>  Personal opinion is just that,opinion.
>
> Peter
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:19 AM, G Mann wrote:
>
>  Since we are all a country with the rule of law, we have to charge them,
>> arrest them, bail them, provide council for them, feed them, try them
>> under
>> the "speedy trial law", raise a jury, find an impartial judge who upholds
>> the law, give actual proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, give them the
>> right of appeal, listen to the news media [the court of public
>> propaganda],
>> plea bargain them, protect them in a country club prison, then release
>> them
>> after they write a book and sell their movie rights.
>>
>> If we were not a country of citizens with the rule of law, we would just
>> hang the worthless treasonous bastards on sight...and be done with it...
>> But, "we" could never do that. Yet.
>>
>> Rope it can be re-cycled... GO GREEN.hang more than one with the
>> same rope...
>>
>> Congress: The only two houses in America than need Foreclosed.
>>
>> Grant...
>> AZ...
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:
>>
>>  Dieselhead wrote:
>>>
>>>  About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.
>>>


>>> I thought treason was a hanging offense.
>>>
>>> Mitch.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> >
>>>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Peter Frederick]

There is that funny little notion of proof beyond reasonable doubt.   
Personal opinion is just that,opinion.


Peter
On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:19 AM, G Mann wrote:

Since we are all a country with the rule of law, we have to charge  
them,
arrest them, bail them, provide council for them, feed them, try  
them under
the "speedy trial law", raise a jury, find an impartial judge who  
upholds
the law, give actual proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, give  
them the
right of appeal, listen to the news media [the court of public  
propaganda],
plea bargain them, protect them in a country club prison, then  
release them

after they write a book and sell their movie rights.

If we were not a country of citizens with the rule of law, we would  
just
hang the worthless treasonous bastards on sight...and be done with  
it...

But, "we" could never do that. Yet.

Rope it can be re-cycled... GO GREEN.hang more than one  
with the

same rope...

Congress: The only two houses in America than need Foreclosed.

Grant...
AZ...

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:


Dieselhead wrote:

 About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.




I thought treason was a hanging offense.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[G Mann]

Since we are all a country with the rule of law, we have to charge them,
arrest them, bail them, provide council for them, feed them, try them under
the "speedy trial law", raise a jury, find an impartial judge who upholds
the law, give actual proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, give them the
right of appeal, listen to the news media [the court of public propaganda],
plea bargain them, protect them in a country club prison, then release them
after they write a book and sell their movie rights.

If we were not a country of citizens with the rule of law, we would just
hang the worthless treasonous bastards on sight...and be done with it...
But, "we" could never do that. Yet.

Rope it can be re-cycled... GO GREEN.hang more than one with the
same rope...

Congress: The only two houses in America than need Foreclosed.

Grant...
AZ...

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Dieselhead wrote:
>
>  About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.
>>
>
> I thought treason was a hanging offense.
>
> Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Dieselhead]

Dieselhead wrote:


About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.


I thought treason was a hanging offense.

Mitch.


Ja, you caught me.  We have all been worked over more then we think. 
You are correct.  Treason is a hanging offense.  It is a better 
choice than keeping them around to feed and house, because then they 
will still be whining.



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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Mitch Haley]

Dieselhead wrote:


About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.


I thought treason was a hanging offense.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Dieselhead]

Grant wrote:

 McCains support as sponsor of this bill absolutely astounds me, after he
 was held prisoner for 5.5 yrs under very harsh conditions.  But then,
 Congress does strange things these days.


Perhaps he has a person in mind as first suspect in implementation of
this law - the guy that put him in viet cong hands?
mao


Seems there is a good chance that is the hotdog himself.

Interesting scenario.   I sure have no objection if the hotdog was locked up

About 85-90% or the congresscritters should be locked up.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Mountain Man]

Grant wrote:
> McCains support as sponsor of this bill absolutely astounds me, after he
> was held prisoner for 5.5 yrs under very harsh conditions.  But then,
> Congress does strange things these days.

Perhaps he has a person in mind as first suspect in implementation of
this law - the guy that put him in viet cong hands?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[G Mann]

t; condition. At that point, a wet start is almost inevitable when another
> attempt to start the engine is made.
>
> It is highly likely that this is what happened on Forrestal.
>
> It is impossible that McCain's jet started the fire. If you look at the
> video, you will see that the exhaust of his jet is pointed out over the
> side
> of the ship. There was no plane parked behind him. The missile that struck
> McCain's plane came from 90 degrees, off his starboard wing.
>
> So please, stop this preposterous slander.
>
> Now as to what he did after the fire started, aside from receiving severe
> burns, you make the absurd criticism that he went below decks while his
> shipmates were dying. Sickbay is below decks. That is where you go when you
> are injured. Pilots do not fight flight deck fires. There are crewman who
> have the special training and equipment who do that. It would be stupid for
> anyone not properly trained and equipped to hang around and be in the way.
>
> Grow up. Keep your criticisms to fact. McCain's politics are far left of
> the
> Republican mainstream, and even further left of good sense. You don't need
> to try to beat him with lies. Defeat him with ideas!
>
> John McCain, liberal that he is, deserves the respect of all of us--most
> especially those who weren't there when the Vietnam War was going on. I was
> there, and I saw pilots put their lives on the line every day, every time
> they climbed into their planes. If you haven't done that, then you can say
> nothing that will impress me.
>
> NavyVet
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of G Mann
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 2:31 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act
>
> Try this version.
> http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=119707
>
> Or try this one.
> http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=75455
>
> I take notice that McCain was the only crew member immediately transferred
> off the ship post incident.  [being the Admirals son has privilege I'm
> told].
> It suffices to say, there were high emotions regarding his actions
> following
> the death of nearly 200 and the injury of many more.
> It gives rise to the question, who shot him down, Vietnam or ???
>
> The version I handled was an un-redacted, un-varnished , pre-board of
> inquiry report. Now most likely sealed or destroyed deep in the bowels of
> military archives. At that instant, the hot shot Admirals son was not
> spoken
> of kindly by his reporting peers.
>
> Respectfully,
> Grant...
> AZ...
>
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Rick Knoble 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > From: wilt...@nc.rr.com
> > > To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > > Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 15:45:00 -0500
> > > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act
> > >
> > > Again, 'thought the rocket(s) that ignited McCain's A4 came from
> > > across
> > the
> > > flight deck slightly to his right.
> >
> > They did.
> >
> > http://pythiapress.com/wartales/McCain-Shootdown.htm
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6l1rwQJjYg
> >
> > No I did not watch/read it all.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives
> > http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[WILTON]

Well, I agree with the GAH part.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act



Barry Stark wrote:
I'm not a fan of McCain but there seems to be a lot of rumors flying 
about
on this disaster and many seem like peoples view of what happened may 
have a

political slant. I wasn't there and can't really say one way or another.


I think it's clear that the fire was just 'wrong place at the wrong time'.
The other stuff, if all true, paints a picture of a man who was both 
highly incompetent and a giant asshole. I tend to accept them because they 
match my impression of the Senator.
Anybody who cares to absolve him can fact-check the powerline incident, 
the class standing at Annapolis, the bail out procedure and his broken 
limbs, etc, etc.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Mitch Haley]

Barry Stark wrote:

I'm not a fan of McCain but there seems to be a lot of rumors flying about
on this disaster and many seem like peoples view of what happened may have a
political slant. I wasn't there and can't really say one way or another.


I think it's clear that the fire was just 'wrong place at the wrong time'.
The other stuff, if all true, paints a picture of a man who was both highly 
incompetent and a giant asshole. I tend to accept them because they match my 
impression of the Senator.
Anybody who cares to absolve him can fact-check the powerline incident, the 
class standing at Annapolis, the bail out procedure and his broken limbs, etc, etc.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Barry Stark]

I'm not a fan of McCain but there seems to be a lot of rumors flying about
on this disaster and many seem like peoples view of what happened may have a
political slant. I wasn't there and can't really say one way or another. I
did watch the videos that Grant posted and read some of the comments that
were posted after one video. This one fellow did not seem to be trying to
make a political point but seemed to be from a person of experience trying
dispel rumors with fact. It seemed reasonable to me. Here's his
explanation.you decide

Did He Start The USS Forrestal Fire? 
Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case
reported that McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up
the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind his plane. 


First, let me state that I am not a McCain supporter. I voted for Ron Paul
in our primaries. 

Second, I am a Navy veteran, and I worked on the flight deck of the USS
Enterprise during 3 vietnam deployments in 1966, 67 and 68. I know about
flight deck operations through extensive first-hand experience. 

You ask the question, "Did [McCain] start the USS Forrestal fire?" 

I'll answer: Absolutely, positively not! 

The theory that a "wet start" triggered the Zuni missile is sound. But the
notion that anybody deliberately wet starts his aircraft is preposterous.
Most often a wet start results from turning the turbine over too slowly to
start the engine. This can result from an error by the flight deck crewman
who is operating the starter. Yes, it is a flight deck crewman who operates
the starter on an A4. A4s (at least of that era) did not have an internal
starter. The crewman manually inserted an air-driven starter into the side
of the aircraft. Both the pilot and the starter crewman followed the signals
given by the plane captain--who is an other flight deck crewman. 

The starter turns when a member of the flight deck power crew makes the
connection on the end of a remote control cable. That is when the aircraft
engine is turned. It takes fifteen to twenty seconds to build up sufficient
RPMs to start the engine. If the start is interrupted for any reason (and
there are many why it can happen) the engine will spool down in a flooded
condition. At that point, a wet start is almost inevitable when another
attempt to start the engine is made. 

It is highly likely that this is what happened on Forrestal. 

It is impossible that McCain's jet started the fire. If you look at the
video, you will see that the exhaust of his jet is pointed out over the side
of the ship. There was no plane parked behind him. The missile that struck
McCain's plane came from 90 degrees, off his starboard wing. 

So please, stop this preposterous slander. 

Now as to what he did after the fire started, aside from receiving severe
burns, you make the absurd criticism that he went below decks while his
shipmates were dying. Sickbay is below decks. That is where you go when you
are injured. Pilots do not fight flight deck fires. There are crewman who
have the special training and equipment who do that. It would be stupid for
anyone not properly trained and equipped to hang around and be in the way. 

Grow up. Keep your criticisms to fact. McCain's politics are far left of the
Republican mainstream, and even further left of good sense. You don't need
to try to beat him with lies. Defeat him with ideas! 

John McCain, liberal that he is, deserves the respect of all of us--most
especially those who weren't there when the Vietnam War was going on. I was
there, and I saw pilots put their lives on the line every day, every time
they climbed into their planes. If you haven't done that, then you can say
nothing that will impress me. 

NavyVet

 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of G Mann
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 2:31 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

Try this version.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=119707

Or try this one.
http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=75455

I take notice that McCain was the only crew member immediately transferred
off the ship post incident.  [being the Admirals son has privilege I'm
told].
It suffices to say, there were high emotions regarding his actions following
the death of nearly 200 and the injury of many more.
It gives rise to the question, who shot him down, Vietnam or ???

The version I handled was an un-redacted, un-varnished , pre-board of
inquiry report. Now most likely sealed or destroyed deep in the bowels of
military archives. At that instant, the hot shot Admirals son was not spoken
of kindly by his reporting peers.

Respectfully,
Grant...
AZ...

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Rick Knoble  wrote:

>
> > From: wilt...@nc.rr.com
> > To: mercedes@ok

Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[G Mann]

Try this version.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=119707

Or try this one.
http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=75455

I take notice that McCain was the only crew member immediately transferred
off the ship post incident.  [being the Admirals son has privilege I'm
told].
It suffices to say, there were high emotions regarding his actions
following the death of nearly 200 and the injury of many more.
It gives rise to the question, who shot him down, Vietnam or ???

The version I handled was an un-redacted, un-varnished , pre-board of
inquiry report. Now most likely sealed or destroyed deep in the bowels of
military archives. At that instant, the hot shot Admirals son was not
spoken of kindly by his reporting peers.

Respectfully,
Grant...
AZ...

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Rick Knoble  wrote:

>
> > From: wilt...@nc.rr.com
> > To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 15:45:00 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act
> >
> > Again, 'thought the rocket(s) that ignited McCain's A4 came from across
> the
> > flight deck slightly to his right.
>
> They did.
>
> http://pythiapress.com/wartales/McCain-Shootdown.htm
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6l1rwQJjYg
>
> No I did not watch/read it all.
>
> Rick
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Rick Knoble]

> From: wilt...@nc.rr.com
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 15:45:00 -0500
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act
> 
> Again, 'thought the rocket(s) that ignited McCain's A4 came from across the 
> flight deck slightly to his right.

They did.

http://pythiapress.com/wartales/McCain-Shootdown.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6l1rwQJjYg

No I did not watch/read it all.

Rick
  
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[rogerhga]

Hey, you guys are getting into this stuff pretty heavy. Maybe it's time to 
start writing the script for "Conspiracy Theory 2". Mel Gibson could use 
another movie. And Julia Roberts is always good to see on the big screen. 
Best Wishes, 

Roger Hale 
Dinnerware Classics, Inc. 
Monroe, Ga. 
770-267-0850 
www.dinnerwareclassics.com (new) 
www.rubylane.com/shops/sna (antique) 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[WILTON]

Again, 'thought the rocket(s) that ignited McCain's A4 came from across the 
flight deck slightly to his right.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "G Mann" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act



More correctly, there was perhaps a total bonehead move where McCain
pickled off a set of rockets while on the flight deck, killed nearly 200
seamen, and a few days later was "shot down" by enemy fire, over the Hanoi
/Hiphong complex.  Many questions remain unanswered to my satisfaction.

Was he on the ship, in the airplane, yes. Did it fire rockets, yes. Was he
at fault, unanswered to my satisfaction. Did he then "take fire" and from
"where",, unanswered to my satisfaction.  "Stuff happens" in war some
of it, conveniently... [veteran, not a john kerry veteran]

Do his current and past ego displays support the questions raised in this
discussion. Those are conclusions that are yours to make.

Grant...
AZ...

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


So if it was a fragging, mccain initiated it.  and if there was a
retaliatory fragging, mccain was the target.


 The un-redacted report I read some years ago stated it was rockets from

his
AC that launched while on deck and started the chain reaction.  I wasn't
there, didn't see it myself, so it should be treated accordingly.

None the less, I'm shocked McCain would sponsor such a bill, considering
his personal history of being POW.

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

  That too


 Long before Hanoi he was an arrogant etc.



 Wilton

  >

 >



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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[G Mann]

More correctly, there was perhaps a total bonehead move where McCain
pickled off a set of rockets while on the flight deck, killed nearly 200
seamen, and a few days later was "shot down" by enemy fire, over the Hanoi
/Hiphong complex.  Many questions remain unanswered to my satisfaction.

Was he on the ship, in the airplane, yes. Did it fire rockets, yes. Was he
at fault, unanswered to my satisfaction. Did he then "take fire" and from
"where",, unanswered to my satisfaction.  "Stuff happens" in war some
of it, conveniently... [veteran, not a john kerry veteran]

Do his current and past ego displays support the questions raised in this
discussion. Those are conclusions that are yours to make.

Grant...
AZ...

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> So if it was a fragging, mccain initiated it.  and if there was a
> retaliatory fragging, mccain was the target.
>
>
>  The un-redacted report I read some years ago stated it was rockets from
>> his
>> AC that launched while on deck and started the chain reaction.  I wasn't
>> there, didn't see it myself, so it should be treated accordingly.
>>
>> None the less, I'm shocked McCain would sponsor such a bill, considering
>> his personal history of being POW.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>   That too
>>>
>>>  Long before Hanoi he was an arrogant etc.
>>>

  Wilton

   >
>>  >
>>
>
> __**_
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Dieselhead]

So if it was a fragging, mccain initiated it.  and if there was a 
retaliatory fragging, mccain was the target.




The un-redacted report I read some years ago stated it was rockets from his
AC that launched while on deck and started the chain reaction.  I wasn't
there, didn't see it myself, so it should be treated accordingly.

None the less, I'm shocked McCain would sponsor such a bill, considering
his personal history of being POW.

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


 That too

  Long before Hanoi he was an arrogant etc.


 Wilton


 >
 >


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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[G Mann]

The un-redacted report I read some years ago stated it was rockets from his
AC that launched while on deck and started the chain reaction.  I wasn't
there, didn't see it myself, so it should be treated accordingly.

None the less, I'm shocked McCain would sponsor such a bill, considering
his personal history of being POW.

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That too
>
>  Long before Hanoi he was an arrogant etc.
>>
>> Wilton
>>
>
> __**_
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Dieselhead]

Not being a mccain fan, I never though about the incident being a 
fragging.  It seems quite plausible that it was.  I certainly never 
thought of mccain's being shot down as a fragging, but that is quite 
possible too.



'Thought the rocket that ignited McCain's A4 came from across the 
deck from the A4.


Wilton


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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[WILTON]

'Thought the rocket that ignited McCain's A4 came from across the deck from 
the A4.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "G Mann" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act



Just days before being shot down over North VIetnam, McCain was on the
flight line of his ship and involved in the release of live rockets from
his aircraft which caused the death of more American Sailors than any like
event in American history. Daddy McCain is an Admiral and John was given a
free pass on the incident.  Always wondered exact details of his
shootdown... things happen in war... just thinking... paybacks are a
bitch...

Grant...
AZ...

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 8:45 AM, WILTON  wrote:


Long before Hanoi he was an arrogant etc.

Wilton

- Original Message - From: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act




 I wrote my senators and described McCain as a modern day McCarthy.


If I disappear look in Cuba.

-Curt


McCarthy doesn't deserve to be defamed that way.  Comparing him to
Mccain!  really!

Well, pre-hanoi hilton Mccain may have had a brain.  I'll cut him some
slack for surviving what nobody should have to endure.  But I will never
trust Mccains brainless mutterings.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Dieselhead]

That too


Long before Hanoi he was an arrogant etc.

Wilton


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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[G Mann]

Just days before being shot down over North VIetnam, McCain was on the
flight line of his ship and involved in the release of live rockets from
his aircraft which caused the death of more American Sailors than any like
event in American history. Daddy McCain is an Admiral and John was given a
free pass on the incident.  Always wondered exact details of his
shootdown... things happen in war... just thinking... paybacks are a
bitch...

Grant...
AZ...

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 8:45 AM, WILTON  wrote:

> Long before Hanoi he was an arrogant etc.
>
> Wilton
>
> - Original Message - From: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com>
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act
>
>
>
>>  I wrote my senators and described McCain as a modern day McCarthy.
>>>
>>> If I disappear look in Cuba.
>>>
>>> -Curt
>>>
>> McCarthy doesn't deserve to be defamed that way.  Comparing him to
>> Mccain!  really!
>>
>> Well, pre-hanoi hilton Mccain may have had a brain.  I'll cut him some
>> slack for surviving what nobody should have to endure.  But I will never
>> trust Mccains brainless mutterings.
>>
>> __**_
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>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/<http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/>
>>
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>>
>
> __**_
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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[WILTON]

Long before Hanoi he was an arrogant etc.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act





I wrote my senators and described McCain as a modern day McCarthy.

If I disappear look in Cuba.

-Curt
McCarthy doesn't deserve to be defamed that way.  Comparing him to 
Mccain!  really!


Well, pre-hanoi hilton Mccain may have had a brain.  I'll cut him 
some slack for surviving what nobody should have to endure.  But I 
will never trust Mccains brainless mutterings.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Hendrik & Fay]

Ahh yes one of the best ever, wanna be able to do what you like with 
some bad people? See your friends down South, you know the ones you have 
kept in limbo for years until you need a place to rough up some baddies.


Hendrik
who may join you in a state sponsored holiday in sunny and dictatorial Cuba

Curt Raymond wrote:

I wrote my senators and described McCain as a modern day McCarthy.

If I disappear look in Cuba.

-Curt

  



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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Dieselhead]

I wrote my senators and described McCain as a modern day McCarthy.

If I disappear look in Cuba.

-Curt
McCarthy doesn't deserve to be defamed that way.  Comparing him to 
Mccain!  really!


Well, pre-hanoi hilton Mccain may have had a brain.  I'll cut him 
some slack for surviving what nobody should have to endure.  But I 
will never trust Mccains brainless mutterings.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Mitch Haley]

Curt Raymond wrote:

I wrote my senators and described McCain as a modern day McCarthy.


Don't forget Comrade Lenin from Michigan, McCain's co-author.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Curt Raymond]

I wrote my senators and described McCain as a modern day McCarthy.

If I disappear look in Cuba.

-Curt

Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:52:25 -0500
From: Mitch Haley 
To: Mercedes Discussion List , Banned List

Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act
Message-ID: <4ee0f959.3010...@voyager.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Yes, it's OT.
Cross-posting to Banned.
http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/gov-t-already-routinely-detains-citizens-without-due-process



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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Mitch Haley]

Yes, it's OT.
Cross-posting to Banned.
http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/gov-t-already-routinely-detains-citizens-without-due-process

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Re: [MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Mountain Man]

How about a link?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/12/05/the-national-defense-authorization-act-is-the-greatest-threat-to-civil-liberties-americans-face/
mao

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[MBZ] OT - National Defense Auth Act

[Mountain Man]

I have been noticing alarmist reaction to this thing going thru DC.
Now Forbes has the same alarm.
What reality is there in these alarm scares?
mao

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