Re: [MBZ] SLS level control valves [was: OM603 oil pan breech]
Phillip. Ta very much! Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred. http://host-a.net/fmiser/ There's a bunch of other files there too. The photos of the SLS valve are cryptically named. s123-sls-valve... Enjoy. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] SLS level control valves (was: OM603 oil pan breech)
There's normally not much you can do beyond fluid and filter changes. The normal fluid is non-detergent, designed to allow crap to settle out in corners so it doesn't circulate and wear out the corrector valves, pump, and strut pressure seals. Additionally on a Citroen, the steering rack, brakes, centrifugal clutch control, transmission selector fork servos, shift control unit, carb idle speed control, and on the SM, the directional headlight servo, are all places where stuff can settle. (In case you thought the 6.9's system was complex!). On Citroëns, we occasionally run a fluid known as hydraurinçage to remove the small sediment that comes from the sphere diaphragms and seals as they break down. Hydraurinçage (about $80/gal) is designed to temporarily replace the hydraulic fluid and contains detergents to help clear the system. You run with it for a few thousand kilometres or several months, then release all pressure in the system, drain, and refill with the normal hydraulic fluid. You can order it from any of the Citroën parts resellers in the US, eg Brad Nauss in PA or Western Hemispheres in CA. http://www.westernhemispheres.com/westernh/itempg.icl?secid=4subsecid=10orderidentifier=ID12874695025625F5429794D7448dirpage=dir2curitempos=5numitems=18itmid=18897eflag=0 D. At 12:49 PM -0700 10/18/10, Alex Chamberlain wrote: Any recommendations for prolonging the life of the level control valves, other than (obviously) regular fluid changes and keeping the rest of the system in good order? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] SLS level control valves [was: OM603 oil pan breech]
Frederick W Moir wrote: I'd love some photos, please. http://host-a.net/fmiser/ There's a bunch of other files there too. The photos of the SLS valve are cryptically named. s123-sls-valve... Enjoy. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] SLS level control valves [was: OM603 oil pan breech]
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On the down side there was -nothing- good in the junkyard today (also looking for [Alan's?] SLS thingy and Joe's 126 stuff) That would be my SLS thingy. :) The offer to pay you junkyard price plus shipping plus a generous allowance for your time still stands! There are several leveling valves on eBay from 123 wagons and 560SELs, but starting price on each is $100 or more, which is a little more than I want to spend just for research purposes. I wish I knew what the difference is between those and the kind at the rear end of a 6.9 (which is also on my 126). I would take apart the one on my car, but it's working fine, and I am not confident enough in my ability to put it back together right. A cheap junkyard one, though, that's another story. Considering that the 123/560SEL part goes for $300 or so new, and the NLA 6.9 part goes for $1K or so used, it seems to me somebody could make money rebuilding these---or even, in the case of the 6.9 part, manufacturing a drop-in replacement from scratch (a la the Unwired Tools replacement 116 ACC brain). How complicated can it be inside? A few fluid passages, some holes tapped appropriately for the lines, and a valve that changes flow rate depending on the position of a lever? Sounds like something any undergraduate mechanical-engineering student could design and any machinist could build. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] SLS level control valves (was: OM603 oil pan breech)
The SLS valves for W115/123/126/124/201 etc rear axles are totally different from the valves on the 6.9 and W126 with four-wheel hydropneumatic suspension. The rear-axle-only SLS version has a base pressure ball valve which is designed to guarantee a static pressure irrespective of the position of the control lever. There's never no pressure in the suspension circuit (unless the base pressure valve spring is weak), and the steel suspension ensures that even a leaky valve won't result in any dramatic height changes when the car is off. MB sells a rebuild kit 000-586-00-32 (about $100) for these valves. The four-wheel levelling system on the 6.9/W126 is totally different from other MB SLS systems. It is a shameless (probably licensed) copy of the Citroën system. The height control valve is actually much simpler than the rear-SLS valves (fewer components), but it is made to MUCH tighter tolerances. The system, including cutaways of the height corrector valves, is described here: http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/index.html?hc/chapter4.html Another useful link: http://www.citroenet.org.uk/miscellaneous/hydraulics/hydraulics-1.html The machining tolerances on these valves are tighter than on the SLS valves, because any leakage in the valve will cause the car to sink to the ground when shut off. There are no springs to back up the hydraulic pressure. This requires extremely tight valving, and a conventional machine shop would not reliably be able to achieve those tolerances, certainly not at a price you'd be willing to pay. Of course, leakdown could also be caused by any other component in the pressure circuit, which is why people often replace the levelling valves only to discover that wasn't the problem. Unless the corrector valve is leaking externally or seized, it's generally fine. Below, extracts from http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/gen/Asnieres.html describing the process of making the slide valves in the height correctors. I wouldn't be surprised if MB sourced their valves from Citroen, rather than bothering to set up another OEM... The finishing processes are carried out on centerless grinding machines, and vary according to the profile and dimensions of the slide valves. On each pass, the machining chip gets smaller and smaller, down from 0.06 mm to 0.04 mm to 0.01 mm. At this stage the part is ready for superfinishing. There are still 5 microns left to be removed before the setting is perfect. This is done by lapping, and the chip now is no more than micron dust. Lapping is performed on the circular plate of the lapping machine, a form of grinding wheel, on which the operator sets out 150 slide valves into the recesses provided for that purpose, a second rotating plate rolls and polishes the slide valves in their axis rather like ball bearings. The operator, guided by his know-how and the sixth sense born of experience, carries out the inspections he deems necessary as the setting approaches its final development. He also turns the slide valves over in order to correct for the conical effect produced by the lapping process. Three levels of tolerance compliance have to be attained by the slide valves: 1 micron in diameter, 0.5 microns out-of-shape, and 0.3 microns in surface finish. In order to observe the micron and even lower requirements, inspection to within a tenth of a micron by the measuring apparatus is required. Of course, not only does the measurement have to be precise, but it must also be reliable under workshop conditions. To obtain this, a number of precautions (e.g. avoiding continual variations in temperature) have to be taken. The solution adopted at Asnières is simple and foolproof: the operator compares the part with a benchmark of the same dimension and material, which is regularly checked by the metrology laboratory of the Quality control department. Alex Chamberlain wrote: There are several leveling valves on eBay from 123 wagons and 560SELs, but starting price on each is $100 or more, which is a little more than I want to spend just for research purposes. I wish I knew what the difference is between those and the kind at the rear end of a 6.9 (which is also on my 126). I would take apart the one on my car, but it's working fine, and I am not confident enough in my ability to put it back together right. A cheap junkyard one, though, that's another story. Considering that the 123/560SEL part goes for $300 or so new, and the NLA 6.9 part goes for $1K or so used, it seems to me somebody could make money rebuilding these---or even, in the case of the 6.9 part, manufacturing a drop-in replacement from scratch (a la the Unwired Tools replacement 116 ACC brain). How complicated can it be inside? A few fluid passages, some holes tapped appropriately for the lines, and a valve that changes flow rate depending on the position of a lever? Sounds like something any undergraduate mechanical-engineering student could design and any
Re: [MBZ] SLS level control valves [was: OM603 oil pan breech]
Alex Chamberlain wrote: How complicated can it be inside? A few fluid passages, some holes tapped appropriately for the lines, and a valve that changes flow rate depending on the position of a lever? I have photos of the inside of one from a 123 wagon - is anyone is interested. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] SLS level control valves (was: OM603 oil pan breech)
Other car manufacturers, notably Rolls-Royce and Mercedes-Benz licenced the system which was also used on Berliet trucks. Similar systems are also used on some military vehicles. Bingo! Walt, who's making Benz parts today, oh joy... On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:13 PM, David Bruckmann bruckma...@transcontinental.ca wrote: The SLS valves for W115/123/126/124/201 etc rear axles are totally different from the valves on the 6.9 and W126 with four-wheel hydropneumatic suspension. The rear-axle-only SLS version has a base pressure ball valve which is designed to guarantee a static pressure irrespective of the position of the control lever. There's never no pressure in the suspension circuit (unless the base pressure valve spring is weak), and the steel suspension ensures that even a leaky valve won't result in any dramatic height changes when the car is off. MB sells a rebuild kit 000-586-00-32 (about $100) for these valves. The four-wheel levelling system on the 6.9/W126 is totally different from other MB SLS systems. It is a shameless (probably licensed) copy of the Citroën system. The height control valve is actually much simpler than the rear-SLS valves (fewer components), but it is made to MUCH tighter tolerances. The system, including cutaways of the height corrector valves, is described here: http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/index.html?hc/chapter4.html Another useful link: http://www.citroenet.org.uk/miscellaneous/hydraulics/hydraulics-1.html The machining tolerances on these valves are tighter than on the SLS valves, because any leakage in the valve will cause the car to sink to the ground when shut off. There are no springs to back up the hydraulic pressure. This requires extremely tight valving, and a conventional machine shop would not reliably be able to achieve those tolerances, certainly not at a price you'd be willing to pay. Of course, leakdown could also be caused by any other component in the pressure circuit, which is why people often replace the levelling valves only to discover that wasn't the problem. Unless the corrector valve is leaking externally or seized, it's generally fine. Below, extracts from http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/gen/Asnieres.html describing the process of making the slide valves in the height correctors. I wouldn't be surprised if MB sourced their valves from Citroen, rather than bothering to set up another OEM... The finishing processes are carried out on centerless grinding machines, and vary according to the profile and dimensions of the slide valves. On each pass, the machining chip gets smaller and smaller, down from 0.06 mm to 0.04 mm to 0.01 mm. At this stage the part is ready for superfinishing. There are still 5 microns left to be removed before the setting is perfect. This is done by lapping, and the chip now is no more than micron dust. Lapping is performed on the circular plate of the lapping machine, a form of grinding wheel, on which the operator sets out 150 slide valves into the recesses provided for that purpose, a second rotating plate rolls and polishes the slide valves in their axis rather like ball bearings. The operator, guided by his know-how and the sixth sense born of experience, carries out the inspections he deems necessary as the setting approaches its final development. He also turns the slide valves over in order to correct for the conical effect produced by the lapping process. Three levels of tolerance compliance have to be attained by the slide valves: 1 micron in diameter, 0.5 microns out-of-shape, and 0.3 microns in surface finish. In order to observe the micron and even lower requirements, inspection to within a tenth of a micron by the measuring apparatus is required. Of course, not only does the measurement have to be precise, but it must also be reliable under workshop conditions. To obtain this, a number of precautions (e.g. avoiding continual variations in temperature) have to be taken. The solution adopted at Asnières is simple and foolproof: the operator compares the part with a benchmark of the same dimension and material, which is regularly checked by the metrology laboratory of the Quality control department. Alex Chamberlain wrote: There are several leveling valves on eBay from 123 wagons and 560SELs, but starting price on each is $100 or more, which is a little more than I want to spend just for research purposes. I wish I knew what the difference is between those and the kind at the rear end of a 6.9 (which is also on my 126). I would take apart the one on my car, but it's working fine, and I am not confident enough in my ability to put it back together right. A cheap junkyard one, though, that's another story. Considering that the 123/560SEL part goes for $300 or so new, and the NLA 6.9 part goes for $1K or so used, it seems to me somebody could make money rebuilding these---or even, in the case of the 6.9 part, manufacturing a drop-in replacement from
Re: [MBZ] SLS level control valves (was: OM603 oil pan breech)
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:13 AM, David Bruckmann bruckma...@transcontinental.ca wrote: The SLS valves for W115/123/126/124/201 etc rear axles are totally different from the valves on the 6.9 and W126 with four-wheel hydropneumatic suspension. Very, very useful info, David! Thank you! I knew that the system M-B used on the 6.9 and on the W126 with Hydramat (which is what I have) was similar to Citroen's, but I didn't realize just how similar. Any recommendations for prolonging the life of the level control valves, other than (obviously) regular fluid changes and keeping the rest of the system in good order? The previous owner of my Euro 500SEL did various dumb things with the car, chief among them driving it off and on for at least a few months, possibly closer to a year, with bad pressure spheres. It doesn't seem to have suffered for that, though. Right now I'm in the process of sourcing the correct rod to go from the level control valve to the rear anti-roll bar. (The PO had joined the two with a piece of coathanger.) I also noticed that the new-in-box valve that sold for $850 on eBay had a rubber boot between the valve body and the control lever, which mine is missing although there's some grease clinging to the mechanism that would have been covered by the boot. The boot is NLA as well, so I'm going to replace it with one McMaster-Carr sells that looks like it will fit snugly, and fill it with good-quality grease on the assumption that the mechanism there was supposed to be well-greased to protect it from the elements, a la a CV joint. (See pictures.) Alex -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rear-leveling-valve-ebay.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 97637 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20101018/75356f13/attachment.jpg -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rear-leveling-valve2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 129473 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20101018/75356f13/attachment-0001.jpg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] SLS level control valves [was: OM603 oil pan breech]
Philip. I'd love some photos, please. fred.s...@verizon.net Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred On 10/18/2010 2:42 PM, Fmiser wrote: Alex Chamberlain wrote: How complicated can it be inside? A few fluid passages, some holes tapped appropriately for the lines, and a valve that changes flow rate depending on the position of a lever? I have photos of the inside of one from a 123 wagon - is anyone is interested. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
