Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
A 240D will feel like a 560SEL in comparison.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Recently read a note asking about putting a W123 300D into a 350SDL
rodbender on another forum - the short answer given was - yes, it;s an
easy change.
Has anyone tried this? Is it an easy change as they said? Seems like a
reasonable way to save a W140 that has exhibited its terminal rod problems.
W123 300Ds are pretty reasonable now a-days and once the engine and
ancilliary parts were removed the remainder could be parted out/sold, making
it a zero cost option - depending on cost and proceeds from selling stuff.
Curious - I think there's some W140s out there that have gotten the dreaded
Need a rebuild comment from their technician and they might want to just
be rid of it.
BTW, would the donor engine mate to the W140 tranny easily? Or perhaps the
donor car needs to provide the engine *and* tranny??
Thx -
Sincerely,
Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB, 91 300D Turbo)
A Blood Test for your oil - www.youroil.net
For Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
Weber Carb Stuff http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
http://members.rennlist.com/my_911/Index.htm For my Paint Job Info
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Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Seems that when the rods bend, the cylinders go oval within a thousand miles or less (as expected -- the piston won't fit crooked). First sign is excessive oil consumption, but sometimes is the noise of the piston clanking in the now oval bore. This isn't a gradual failure. Peter
[MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Recently read a note asking about putting a W123 300D into a 350SDL
rodbender on another forum - the short answer given was - yes, it;s an
easy change.
Has anyone tried this? Is it an easy change as they said? Seems like a
reasonable way to save a W140 that has exhibited its terminal rod problems.
W123 300Ds are pretty reasonable now a-days and once the engine and
ancilliary parts were removed the remainder could be parted out/sold, making
it a zero cost option - depending on cost and proceeds from selling stuff.
Curious - I think there's some W140s out there that have gotten the dreaded
Need a rebuild comment from their technician and they might want to just
be rid of it.
BTW, would the donor engine mate to the W140 tranny easily? Or perhaps the
donor car needs to provide the engine *and* tranny??
Thx -
Sincerely,
Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB, 91 300D Turbo)
A Blood Test for your oil - www.youroil.net
For Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
Weber Carb Stuff http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
http://members.rennlist.com/my_911/Index.htm For my Paint Job Info
Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Nice thing about Benz, all the engines sit on the same mounts and all the trannies bolt up to the same pattern, as far as I know (just like Chevy, unlike Ford). However, a rebuild on the original 350 is only about $5000 if you do it yourself, and in fact may be somewhat less depending on the exact engine. Biggest cost is the new pistons and rods, neither cheap ($2500 for pistons a few years back). Once done, the engine is as good as the 3.0L 603 the only problem being understrength rods. Not all engines go -- I've personally seen one with 350,000 miles on the original engine. Peter
Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently read a note asking about putting a W123 300D into a 350SDL rodbender on another forum - the short answer given was - yes, it;s an easy change. Has anyone tried this? Is it an easy change as they said? Seems like a reasonable way to save a W140 that has exhibited its terminal rod problems. W123 300Ds are pretty reasonable now a-days and once the engine and ancilliary parts were removed the remainder could be parted out/sold, making it a zero cost option - depending on cost and proceeds from selling stuff. Curious - I think there's some W140s out there that have gotten the dreaded Need a rebuild comment from their technician and they might want to just be rid of it. BTW, would the donor engine mate to the W140 tranny easily? Or perhaps the donor car needs to provide the engine *and* tranny?? NO, it's NOT easy. The OM617.95 engine CAN be put into a W140 but it will require a lot of modifications and re-engineering. Then there's the question of the AC system (not an easy modification either). I think you'd need the older transmission too. I don't think the version from the W140 will bolt up to a 617 (the 60x engine is tipped about 15 degrees while the 617 is straight up). The engine 617 delivers much less power and torque than the 603 engine and the fuel economy is 15-20% worse too. Not a good match, but it CAN be done if you have a lot of skill and time. Want a good W140 diesel? About half of them have Mercedes rebuilt engines in them and those engines are JUST FINE. Most of THOSE owner aren't eager to sell because they are VERY nice cars (until the electronics or the original engine fails). Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Larry,
Short answer - the note on the other forum was wrong. With a bent-rod
3.5L engine, you have basically 2 viable options:
1) Replace the engine with a factory 3.5L crate motor (long or short block)
2) Replace the engine with a 3.0L from a 1986/87 300D/TD/SDL.
If the 3.5L engine still has round cylinders and no oil consumption,
you have a third option... replace the rods BEFORE they bend. Kinda
spendy ($1200+ in parts, plus labor) but far cheaper than a new motor.
Putting a 617 into a W140 is just silly, IMO.
:)
-dm
--
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:52:43 -0400
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Recently read a note asking about putting a W123 300D into a 350SDL
rodbender on another forum - the short answer given was - yes, it;s an
easy change.
Has anyone tried this? Is it an easy change as they said? Seems like a
reasonable way to save a W140 that has exhibited its terminal rod problems.
W123 300Ds are pretty reasonable now a-days and once the engine and
ancilliary parts were removed the remainder could be parted out/sold, making
it a zero cost option - depending on cost and proceeds from selling stuff.
Curious - I think there's some W140s out there that have gotten the dreaded
Need a rebuild comment from their technician and they might want to just
be rid of it.
BTW, would the donor engine mate to the W140 tranny easily? Or perhaps the
donor car needs to provide the engine *and* tranny??
Thx -
Sincerely,
Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB, 91 300D Turbo)
Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Hi Marshall,
Thanks for the in-depth answer - as well as the others who responded - it's
threads like these that save us money when opportunities raise their ugly
heads!
Marshall wrote:I know of less than a dozen and 5 of them failed VERY
shortly after rebuild
This info may not be available to you, but I'm wondering what failed?
Did they start burning oil? leaking oil? Rod thru the block? Engine knock?
But if you were not seeing them 1st hand you may not have been exposed to
that info --
Just curious -
Sincerely,
Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB, 91 300D Turbo)
A Blood Test for your oil - www.youroil.net
For Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
Weber Carb Stuff http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
http://members.rennlist.com/my_911/Index.htm For my Paint Job Info
- Original Message -
From: Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mercedes Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Peter Frederick wrote:
Nice thing about Benz, all the engines sit on the same mounts and all
the trannies bolt up to the same pattern, as far as I know (just like
Chevy, unlike Ford).
I THINK the cocked engine in the OM60x is a problem - maybe not.
However, a rebuild on the original 350 is only about $5000 if you do it
yourself, and in fact may be somewhat less depending on the exact
engine. Biggest cost is the new pistons and rods, neither cheap ($2500
for pistons a few years back).
Once done, the engine is as good as the 3.0L 603 the only problem being
understrength rods. Not all engines go -- I've personally seen one
with 350,000 miles on the original engine.
The replacement rods are NOT understrength. That's ONE reason why you
must replace ALL of them (the new ones weigh more). Reboring and
sleeving the engine is not for the faint of heart - Mercedes said it
mustn't be done in the engine manual, but they have been doing it in
their rebuilds starting when the bores were found to be wearing into an
elliptical profile in the mid '90s. Very few of the independently
rebuilt OM603.97 engines that I've heard of have lasted even 20kmi.
Maybe I only heard about the bad ones. I know of less than a dozen and 5
of them failed VERY shortly after rebuild - one was rebuilt at a
dealership, two by respected engine rebuilders and the others by
allegedly rather skilled mechanics with LOTS of experience rebuilding
gas engines.
Marshall
--
Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions)
der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84
190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
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Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Thanks again to the replies - there certainly seems to be some differences
of opinions - but the people on this forum seems to be in agreement.
Dave M wrote:replace the rods BEFORE they bend.
This option seems to be the best of all worlds - next question -- how do you
determone if the rods have/have not started bending without pulling the head
and check the cylinders for ovality and perhaps the oil pan to check the con
rods? Which sounds like you'd be pretty far along to completely
disassembling the engine for a rebuild.
Would oil consumption be the symptom to indicate the rods have not bent? Or
is this something where you buy the car with the thought of fixing whatever
you find?
I guess this kind of scenario needs to get into the negotiations when a car
is found - certainly would seem to be a tricky situation --
TIA -
Sincerely,
Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB, 91 300D Turbo)
A Blood Test for your oil - www.youroil.net
For Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
Weber Carb Stuff http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
http://members.rennlist.com/my_911/Index.htm For my Paint Job Info
- Original Message -
From: Dave M. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Larry,
Short answer - the note on the other forum was wrong. With a bent-rod
3.5L engine, you have basically 2 viable options:
1) Replace the engine with a factory 3.5L crate motor (long or short
block)
2) Replace the engine with a 3.0L from a 1986/87 300D/TD/SDL.
If the 3.5L engine still has round cylinders and no oil consumption,
you have a third option... replace the rods BEFORE they bend. Kinda
spendy ($1200+ in parts, plus labor) but far cheaper than a new motor.
Putting a 617 into a W140 is just silly, IMO.
:)
-dm
--
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:52:43 -0400
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Recently read a note asking about putting a W123 300D into a 350SDL
rodbender on another forum - the short answer given was - yes, it;s an
easy change.
Has anyone tried this? Is it an easy change as they said? Seems like a
reasonable way to save a W140 that has exhibited its terminal rod
problems.
W123 300Ds are pretty reasonable now a-days and once the engine and
ancilliary parts were removed the remainder could be parted out/sold,
making
it a zero cost option - depending on cost and proceeds from selling
stuff.
Curious - I think there's some W140s out there that have gotten the
dreaded
Need a rebuild comment from their technician and they might want to
just
be rid of it.
BTW, would the donor engine mate to the W140 tranny easily? Or perhaps
the
donor car needs to provide the engine *and* tranny??
Thx -
Sincerely,
Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB, 91 300D Turbo)
___
http://www.striplin.net
For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Marshall, Thanks for the in-depth answer - as well as the others who responded - it's threads like these that save us money when opportunities raise their ugly heads! Marshall wrote:I know of less than a dozen and 5 of them failed VERY shortly after rebuild This info may not be available to you, but I'm wondering what failed? Did they start burning oil? leaking oil? Rod thru the block? Engine knock? But if you were not seeing them 1st hand you may not have been exposed to that info -- A crank snapped on one, not sure about all of them - several never broke in - the rings never seated and oil consumption was high. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks again to the replies - there certainly seems to be some differences of opinions - but the people on this forum seems to be in agreement. Dave M wrote:replace the rods BEFORE they bend. This option seems to be the best of all worlds - next question -- how do you determone if the rods have/have not started bending without pulling the head and check the cylinders for ovality and perhaps the oil pan to check the con rods? Which sounds like you'd be pretty far along to completely disassembling the engine for a rebuild. Would oil consumption be the symptom to indicate the rods have not bent? Or is this something where you buy the car with the thought of fixing whatever you find? I guess this kind of scenario needs to get into the negotiations when a car is found - certainly would seem to be a tricky situation -- One problem with all of the OM603.97 engines is that nobody knows what event(s) cause(s) the rods to bend. About all that's sure is that it happens MUCH more often (and sooner) in city driven cars than in highway driven cars. Once a rod bends, well before there are ANY symptoms of bent rod(s), the engine is in need of a COMPLETE rebuild - including a rebore. Before any symptoms appear you MAY be able to get away with just replacing the rods IF the cylinder bore hasn't started to change from cylindrical to elliptical. But before oil consumption starts to increase there is no way to know until you open the engine and measure things. There are several cases where (apparently) within moments or days of the rods bending (long before there was any change in cylinder bore and before there was any increase in oil consumption) a rod simply snapped and went through the side of the block! That is NOT the most usual failure mode, but it has happened. That's a very rare failure with any Mercedes diesel, but it happens (I had a 601 engine put a rod through the side of the block). Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
It's almost impossible to tell without pulling the head. You need to measure how high each piston comes out of the block - all 6 should be equal. It could be done via the prechamber hole with a special factory tool (normally used to determine TDC location) but in reality, almost nobody would (or even *could*) do that - just pull the head, inspect the cylinder walls, and measure the piston protrusion. Once the oil consumption gets bad enough to really notice, it's WAY too late. Oil consumption on any 60x engine should (IMO) be about 4000 miles per quart or better. Less than 4k and somthing ain't right, under 2k/qt start saving for a motor. (This assumes the oil is NOT going out a bad turbo seal, or into #1 cylinder from the timing chain cavity due to a failing head gasket.) Nothing to see or do from the bottom end, so leave the oil pan alone. If oil consumption is better than 4k/qt, it's a decent bet that the engine is OK. No guarantees, but pretty good odds. That's when you hope the previous owner is telling the truth and is 100% positive the number of miles per quart! =) -dm -- Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:21:00 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender Thanks again to the replies - there certainly seems to be some differences of opinions - but the people on this forum seems to be in agreement. Dave M wrote:replace the rods BEFORE they bend. This option seems to be the best of all worlds - next question -- how do you determone if the rods have/have not started bending without pulling the head and check the cylinders for ovality and perhaps the oil pan to check the con rods? Which sounds like you'd be pretty far along to completely disassembling the engine for a rebuild. Would oil consumption be the symptom to indicate the rods have not bent? Or is this something where you buy the car with the thought of fixing whatever you find? I guess this kind of scenario needs to get into the negotiations when a car is found - certainly would seem to be a tricky situation -- TIA - Sincerely, Larry T
Re: [MBZ] Saving a W140 Rodbender
Is there a way to tell if the engine has been replaced with a Mercedes rebuild? Thanks -Dave Walton 94S350, 99E300 On 4/26/06, Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently read a note asking about putting a W123 300D into a 350SDL rodbender on another forum - the short answer given was - yes, it;s an easy change. Has anyone tried this? Is it an easy change as they said? Seems like a reasonable way to save a W140 that has exhibited its terminal rod problems. W123 300Ds are pretty reasonable now a-days and once the engine and ancilliary parts were removed the remainder could be parted out/sold, making it a zero cost option - depending on cost and proceeds from selling stuff. Curious - I think there's some W140s out there that have gotten the dreaded Need a rebuild comment from their technician and they might want to just be rid of it. BTW, would the donor engine mate to the W140 tranny easily? Or perhaps the donor car needs to provide the engine *and* tranny?? NO, it's NOT easy. The OM617.95 engine CAN be put into a W140 but it will require a lot of modifications and re-engineering. Then there's the question of the AC system (not an easy modification either). I think you'd need the older transmission too. I don't think the version from the W140 will bolt up to a 617 (the 60x engine is tipped about 15 degrees while the 617 is straight up). The engine 617 delivers much less power and torque than the 603 engine and the fuel economy is 15-20% worse too. Not a good match, but it CAN be done if you have a lot of skill and time. Want a good W140 diesel? About half of them have Mercedes rebuilt engines in them and those engines are JUST FINE. Most of THOSE owner aren't eager to sell because they are VERY nice cars (until the electronics or the original engine fails). Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired) ___ http://www.striplin.net For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
