Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Odd. I would have thought that the lack of power would have made them better on ice and snow. You'd think it would be easier to control the traction with that setup. yeah on the HP how about an engine with more torque. :-) Manfred Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:55:38 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options If you've ever driven an old 220D with a four speed auto and fluid coupling, you are familiar with the lack of torque at low speed. Engine rpm will NOT rise above the stall speed of the coupling plus road speed, makes for very slow acceleration until you get the engine spinning, and they are horrible on ice and snow. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
I'll probably be here. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in a rut. I never seem to get to go any where. Just not time enough. :-) Manfred Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 21:35:36 -0400 From: Bill R billr32...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Next time I am heading to Ocala [not doing that very often these days, mostly because of grandkids] I'll see if you are available for lunch. BillR ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
That's true but in retrospect the very slight gain in mileage wasn't really worth the loss of being able to camp where we wanted to, assuming the standard converter would have done the job. Lucky that I didn't pull the transmission just to replace a good converter with that one. It needed a rebuild and converter anyway. Otherwise I would have been really bummed out. Manfred Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:26:30 -0500 From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Which all points out the fact that all the factors have to be taken into account, choices and compromises made, and that there is no one right answer, just different trade-offs. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Why was it bad in ice and snow? I find more powerful cars (barring traction control and the like) are harder to drive in ice and snow because it can be difficult to modulate the power to the wheels... -Curt Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:55:38 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 22c29577-5da8-4e70-bf14-8c583a087...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed If you've ever driven an old 220D with a four speed auto and fluid coupling, you are familiar with the lack of torque at low speed. Engine rpm will NOT rise above the stall speed of the coupling plus road speed, makes for very slow acceleration until you get the engine spinning, and they are horrible on ice and snow. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Exactly - my 220D with manual tranny was not difficult in the ice and snow - I would have thought that the auto version would have been easier. On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Why was it bad in ice and snow? I find more powerful cars (barring traction control and the like) are harder to drive in ice and snow because it can be difficult to modulate the power to the wheels... -Curt Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:55:38 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 22c29577-5da8-4e70-bf14-8c583a087...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed If you've ever driven an old 220D with a four speed auto and fluid coupling, you are familiar with the lack of torque at low speed. Engine rpm will NOT rise above the stall speed of the coupling plus road speed, makes for very slow acceleration until you get the engine spinning, and they are horrible on ice and snow. Peter -- OK Don CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. The Devil's Dictionary Ambrose Bierce ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Agree completely. I've owned several VW Beetles - all were great in the snow. But my 911, which has even more weight over the rear wheels is hard to keep the rear wheels spinning because of the torque/hp available. ( 40hp VW Vs a 175hp 911) LarryT 91 300D Does your business accept or need to accept V/MC/AE/Dis? We have the best rates 0% Interest Business loans. Visit: http://www.merchantreferralsolutions.com/A365706 -- From: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 10:17 AM To: Diesel List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Why was it bad in ice and snow? I find more powerful cars (barring traction control and the like) are harder to drive in ice and snow because it can be difficult to modulate the power to the wheels... -Curt Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:55:38 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 22c29577-5da8-4e70-bf14-8c583a087...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed If you've ever driven an old 220D with a four speed auto and fluid coupling, you are familiar with the lack of torque at low speed. Engine rpm will NOT rise above the stall speed of the coupling plus road speed, makes for very slow acceleration until you get the engine spinning, and they are horrible on ice and snow. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Fatter tires too I'd suspect. Surprisingly my Ranger is pretty good in the snow even in 2wd. My Dakota was terrible in 2wd but quite driveable in 4wd. -Curt Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:24:56 -0400 From: LarryT l02tur...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: 9a7945782c0447a76c6d4645c...@laptop Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Agree completely. I've owned several VW Beetles - all were great in the snow. But my 911, which has even more weight over the rear wheels is hard to keep the rear wheels spinning because of the torque/hp available. ( 40hp VW Vs a 175hp 911) LarryT 91 300D Does your business accept or need to accept V/MC/AE/Dis? We have the best rates 0% Interest Business loans. Visit: http://www.merchantreferralsolutions.com/A365706 -- From: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 10:17 AM To: Diesel List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Why was it bad in ice and snow? I find more powerful cars (barring traction control and the like) are harder to drive in ice and snow because it can be difficult to modulate the power to the wheels... -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
No slip in the tranny, so all the torque is delivered to the rear wheels. Hard to keep the tires from spinning, not helped by the not so very great tires it had on it. My 300D isn't much better, very poor traction without snow tires. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Larry, The way it was explained to me once was; The stall speed is the point at which the engine can't turn any faster when the accelerator is pushed all the way down while the car is standing still brakes on and the transmission is in drive. This is due to the sheer strength of the oil and the space between the fins and number of fins etc. in the fluid coupling which is what the torque converter is. The reason the engine can't turn any faster is because at any RPM there is only so much horse power and torque that that particular engine can produce. This goes up as the engine speed increases till it hits a plateau dependent on the cam, intake, fuel, valve size, compression and on and on. Lots of different variables there. Then usually it goes back down to some extent at a much higher RPM. When the produced power equals the amount of drag produced by the torque converter and what it is connected to obviously the engine won't turn any faster. In normal use of course the car starts moving usually before the stall speed is reached and as it moves the input into the transmission starts turning so the RPM of the engine can go up by the same amount. As the RPM of the engine goes up it is able to produce more power so the car accelerates faster and so on. So the reason for a higher stall speed is that in situations where you want to start accelerating faster or start a bigger load from a stop that requires putting more power to the wheels. Since the engine makes more power at a higher RPM you can either go to a lower gear ratio or allow the engine to get to a higher RPM where it will produce more power. This is the basis of the so called torque multiplying. Nothing is really multiplied it is just that the engine is allowed to produce more usable power at any road speed if called upon, compared to an engine that is directly coupled through a clutch. Bad part is that a higher stall speed is produced by reducing the fluid coupling of the torque converter. This causes more slip at a steady speed or actually at any power point. That in turn effects your fuel mileage unless there is a lockup clutch in the torque converter which gets applied usually in the highest gear to eliminate that slip and recover that loss of mileage. Anyway that's what I was told and I'm sticking to my story. I got to go out and do some work now or get killed. Manfred Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:54:44 -0400 From: LarryT l02tur...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options They talk about a different stall speed improving performance - how does that work? Thx LarryT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
To be a bit more accurate, it's not horsepower dependent, really, it's the slip ratio of the torque converter (which is a bit more complicated than a fluid coupling). High slip results in torque amplification. Effectively it's a lower gear ratio. Your comments of efficiency and fuel consumption are correct -- as well a some reduction in top speed as the torque converter will slip more at high speed if it's a high rpm stall one than if it's a low rpm stall speed one. Fluid couplings (in the automotive sense, that is) do not have a variable stator and therefore do not have a dual stall speed like a torque converter does. The variable stator (of any of about three main types) allows one to have a high stall speed fluid coupling under power at low speed and a low stall speed fluid coupling at high speed. Some are simply one-way clutches, the most common current type, but in the past there have been a couple different active systems. The one most people over 50 would know is in the GM Powerglide 2-speed automatic. Buick used them in the Twin Turbine (along with two separate torque converters if I remember correctly) and at least one other GM division had an active one. Lockup torque converters are great, by the way Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Thanks MG for that extensive explanation! It'll take me a little time to study it a bit. ;-) Take care - LarryT 91 300D Does your business accept or need to accept V/MC/AE/Dis? We have the best rates 0% Interest Business loans. Visit: http://www.merchantreferralsolutions.com/A365706 -- From: MG trainpain2...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:34 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Larry, The way it was explained to me once was; The stall speed is the point at which the engine can't turn any faster when the accelerator is pushed all the way down while the car is standing still brakes on and the transmission is in drive. This is due to the sheer strength of the oil and the space between the fins and number of fins etc. in the fluid coupling which is what the torque converter is. The reason the engine can't turn any faster is because at any RPM there is only so much horse power and torque that that particular engine can produce. This goes up as the engine speed increases till it hits a plateau dependent on the cam, intake, fuel, valve size, compression and on and on. Lots of different variables there. Then usually it goes back down to some extent at a much higher RPM. When the produced power equals the amount of drag produced by the torque converter and what it is connected to obviously the engine won't turn any faster. In normal use of course the car starts moving usually before the stall speed is reached and as it moves the input into the transmission starts turning so the RPM of the engine can go up by the same amount. As the RPM of the engine goes up it is able to produce more power so the car accelerates faster and so on. So the reason for a higher stall speed is that in situations where you want to start accelerating faster or start a bigger load from a stop that requires putting more power to the wheels. Since the engine makes more power at a higher RPM you can either go to a lower gear ratio or allow the engine to get to a higher RPM where it will produce more power. This is the basis of the so called torque multiplying. Nothing is really multiplied it is just that the engine is allowed to produce more usable power at any road speed if called upon, compared to an engine that is directly coupled through a clutch. Bad part is that a higher stall speed is produced by reducing the fluid coupling of the torque converter. This causes more slip at a steady speed or actually at any power point. That in turn effects your fuel mileage unless there is a lockup clutch in the torque converter which gets applied usually in the highest gear to eliminate that slip and recover that loss of mileage. Anyway that's what I was told and I'm sticking to my story. I got to go out and do some work now or get killed. Manfred Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:54:44 -0400 From: LarryT l02tur...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options They talk about a different stall speed improving performance - how does that work? Thx LarryT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
And we are still awaiting the Dome warming party. BillR -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of MG Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:34 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Larry, The way it was explained to me once was; The stall speed is the point at which the engine can't turn any faster when the accelerator is pushed all the way down while the car is standing still brakes on and the transmission is in drive. This is due to the sheer strength of the oil and the space between the fins and number of fins etc. in the fluid coupling which is what the torque converter is. The reason the engine can't turn any faster is because at any RPM there is only so much horse power and torque that that particular engine can produce. This goes up as the engine speed increases till it hits a plateau dependent on the cam, intake, fuel, valve size, compression and on and on. Lots of different variables there. Then usually it goes back down to some extent at a much higher RPM. When the produced power equals the amount of drag produced by the torque converter and what it is connected to obviously the engine won't turn any faster. In normal use of course the car starts moving usually before the stall speed is reached and as it moves the input into the transmission starts turning so the RPM of the engine can go up by the same amount. As the RPM of the engine goes up it is able to produce more power so the car accelerates faster and so on. So the reason for a higher stall speed is that in situations where you want to start accelerating faster or start a bigger load from a stop that requires putting more power to the wheels. Since the engine makes more power at a higher RPM you can either go to a lower gear ratio or allow the engine to get to a higher RPM where it will produce more power. This is the basis of the so called torque multiplying. Nothing is really multiplied it is just that the engine is allowed to produce more usable power at any road speed if called upon, compared to an engine that is directly coupled through a clutch. Bad part is that a higher stall speed is produced by reducing the fluid coupling of the torque converter. This causes more slip at a steady speed or actually at any power point. That in turn effects your fuel mileage unless there is a lockup clutch in the torque converter which gets applied usually in the highest gear to eliminate that slip and recover that loss of mileage. Anyway that's what I was told and I'm sticking to my story. I got to go out and do some work now or get killed. Manfred Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:54:44 -0400 From: LarryT l02tur...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options They talk about a different stall speed improving performance - how does that work? Thx LarryT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
The scary part is that I think he gave us the Cliffs Notes version. BillR -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:12 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Thanks MG for that extensive explanation! It'll take me a little time to study it a bit. ;-) Take care - LarryT 91 300D Does your business accept or need to accept V/MC/AE/Dis? We have the best rates 0% Interest Business loans. Visit: http://www.merchantreferralsolutions.com/A365706 -- From: MG trainpain2...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:34 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Larry, The way it was explained to me once was; The stall speed is the point at which the engine can't turn any faster when the accelerator is pushed all the way down while the car is standing still brakes on and the transmission is in drive. This is due to the sheer strength of the oil and the space between the fins and number of fins etc. in the fluid coupling which is what the torque converter is. The reason the engine can't turn any faster is because at any RPM there is only so much horse power and torque that that particular engine can produce. This goes up as the engine speed increases till it hits a plateau dependent on the cam, intake, fuel, valve size, compression and on and on. Lots of different variables there. Then usually it goes back down to some extent at a much higher RPM. When the produced power equals the amount of drag produced by the torque converter and what it is connected to obviously the engine won't turn any faster. In normal use of course the car starts moving usually before the stall speed is reached and as it moves the input into the transmission starts turning so the RPM of the engine can go up by the same amount. As the RPM of the engine goes up it is able to produce more power so the car accelerates faster and so on. So the reason for a higher stall speed is that in situations where you want to start accelerating faster or start a bigger load from a stop that requires putting more power to the wheels. Since the engine makes more power at a higher RPM you can either go to a lower gear ratio or allow the engine to get to a higher RPM where it will produce more power. This is the basis of the so called torque multiplying. Nothing is really multiplied it is just that the engine is allowed to produce more usable power at any road speed if called upon, compared to an engine that is directly coupled through a clutch. Bad part is that a higher stall speed is produced by reducing the fluid coupling of the torque converter. This causes more slip at a steady speed or actually at any power point. That in turn effects your fuel mileage unless there is a lockup clutch in the torque converter which gets applied usually in the highest gear to eliminate that slip and recover that loss of mileage. Anyway that's what I was told and I'm sticking to my story. I got to go out and do some work now or get killed. Manfred Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:54:44 -0400 From: LarryT l02tur...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options They talk about a different stall speed improving performance - how does that work? Thx LarryT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Nothing is really multiplied it is just that the engine is allowed to produce more usable power... I agree with your description, except for the above. Our 450 SL had stripped splines on the stator shaft into the torque converter. Thus, more of the TC guts could turn with the engine. How, then, does this explain the lower stall speed as a result (and the resultant dog-like performance off the line) if the TC is only dependent upon the internal gaps? The diagrams I've seen show the oil being folded back upon itself by the actions against the stator vanes, resulting in torque multiplication. (Paid for by the greater slip ratio.) Or, in other words, the TC already is halfway like a lockup converter in that it has high slip at low output speeds, and lower slip at road speeds. The true lockups go on to have zero slip at road speeds, which is even better for efficiency. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
The simple answer is that oil circulates in a torque converter (or any fluid coupling) --the pump side throws the oil into the turbine side, where it impacts the blades and then swirls down and out the hub side. The stator at the hub directs this flow back to the pump blades. The angle of the blades or the amount of rotation of the stator will determine the path of the oil up the pump blades and into the turbine blades and the path the oil takes -- when the stator current torque converters is stationary against the one-way clutch, the torque converter is a very low slip fluid coupling. When the stator is rotating, the oil path is different and slippage is much higner (lots more oil moving, I think, but I don't remember exactly). There are some centrifugal effects, most notably that the oil will not return to the hub very well, so the stator has little effect at high rpm. In a high stall speed torque converter, the slip is higher at low speed/high load due to the design of the stator and usually smaller overall diameter. I don't know for sure, but I would expect higher slippage at high speed due to smaller diameter and hence less active area, but have not data on that. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Peter, What about the Chrysler, Dodge, Desoto Fluid Drive. I had 50 Dodge pickup with the fluid drive. It was just a big sealed unit-fluid coupler-also had a dry clutch in the drive line as well for shifting. Dwight Dwight E. Giles, Jr. 1978 240D 4 speed. 218K + miles. 1990 300D 2.5t 170K miles. Wickford, RI -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:00 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options To be a bit more accurate, it's not horsepower dependent, really, it's the slip ratio of the torque converter (which is a bit more complicated than a fluid coupling). High slip results in torque amplification. Effectively it's a lower gear ratio. Your comments of efficiency and fuel consumption are correct -- as well a some reduction in top speed as the torque converter will slip more at high speed if it's a high rpm stall one than if it's a low rpm stall speed one. Fluid couplings (in the automotive sense, that is) do not have a variable stator and therefore do not have a dual stall speed like a torque converter does. The variable stator (of any of about three main types) allows one to have a high stall speed fluid coupling under power at low speed and a low stall speed fluid coupling at high speed. Some are simply one-way clutches, the most common current type, but in the past there have been a couple different active systems. The one most people over 50 would know is in the GM Powerglide 2-speed automatic. Buick used them in the Twin Turbine (along with two separate torque converters if I remember correctly) and at least one other GM division had an active one. Lockup torque converters are great, by the way Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
However if you put the same torque converter behind an engine with more horsepower it will slip more before it reaches the stall speed won't it? Conversely I believe a torque converter with more slip as opposed to a converter with less slip on the same engine will allow it to develop more power because it is turning at a higher RPM which gets it up into a higher point in it's power band rather then having the engine get lugged down by the gearing as it could if direct coupled or if the stall speed is too low. That might be why one of the first things tried to get better 1/4 mile times is usually a high stall converter. That doesn't really produce any more power then the engine is putting in it just allows the engine to produce more by allowing it to turn at a higher RPM from a stop. True it does act like a lower gear which would also allow the engine to turn at a higher RPM where it produces more power but with the added benefit of having the higher gear once the torque converter reaches stall speed and couples better. By then of course the engine would, if it was all figured out right, have gotten to the point where it has enough power to carry that gearing. I still remember that lesson from having put a very low stall converter into a van to get better mileage (no lockup). Then I ended up stuck on a steep mountain trail on vacation when the engine couldn't turn enough RPM to to produce the power that was needed to push the van up the hill. If I had had the regular stall or even better a high stall converter the engine would have had a chance to get to a higher power point and possibly not gotten stopped by the grade. No I didn't change it when we got back home. Not enough need to go up off-road mountain trails. :-) Manfred Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:00:15 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options To be a bit more accurate, it's not horsepower dependent, really, it's the slip ratio of the torque converter (which is a bit more complicated than a fluid coupling). High slip results in torque amplification. Effectively it's a lower gear ratio. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
And unfortunately probably will still be waiting by this time next year. But then again maybe not as stranger things have happened. Don't give up the ship! Manfred Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:14:40 -0400 From: Bill R billr32...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options And we are still awaiting the Dome warming party. BillR ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Not really. That was just about all I know on the subject. Now the dome on the other hand I could go on for hours about. However I'm a nice guy and refuse to abuse everyone on the list like that. Now you on the other hand as a captive audience when you are down here are fair game. :-D Manfred Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:16:31 -0400 From: Bill R billr32...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options The scary part is that I think he gave us the Cliffs Notes version. BillR ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
My take on it is that the oil comes out of the turbine going in the direction opposite to the turning of the engine and that it is the stator that causes the fluid to change direction in the center of the converter so that it can be used again without wasting engine power. If the splines are stripped the stator would turn in the opposite direction of the converter as it is pushed by the oil coming out of the turbine and it would be the pump itself which then has to make the fluid do the direction change. This would rob power from the engine which may have made it feel like a lower stall speed since there wasn't as much power available to overcome the inertia of the car. Like I said I don't know much about it just the simplified explanation that was given to me a long time ago. I never really felt the need to learn any more then that about it all. Manfred Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 07:43:34 -0700 From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net Subject: Re: [MBZ] transmission options Nothing is really multiplied it is just that the engine is allowed to produce more usable power... I agree with your description, except for the above. Our 450 SL had stripped splines on the stator shaft into the torque converter. Thus, more of the TC guts could turn with the engine. How, then, does this explain the lower stall speed as a result (and the resultant dog-like performance off the line) if the TC is only dependent upon the internal gaps? The diagrams I've seen show the oil being folded back upon itself by the actions against the stator vanes, resulting in torque multiplication. (Paid for by the greater slip ratio.) Or, in other words, the TC already is halfway like a lockup converter in that it has high slip at low output speeds, and lower slip at road speeds. The true lockups go on to have zero slip at road speeds, which is even better for efficiency. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Which all points out the fact that all the factors have to be taken into account, choices and compromises made, and that there is no one right answer, just different trade-offs. On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 5:50 PM, MG trainpain2...@yahoo.com wrote: However if you put the same torque converter behind an engine with more horsepower it will slip more before it reaches the stall speed won't it? Conversely I believe a torque converter with more slip as opposed to a converter with less slip on the same engine will allow it to develop more power because it is turning at a higher RPM which gets it up into a higher point in it's power band rather then having the engine get lugged down by the gearing as it could if direct coupled or if the stall speed is too low. That might be why one of the first things tried to get better 1/4 mile times is usually a high stall converter. That doesn't really produce any more power then the engine is putting in it just allows the engine to produce more by allowing it to turn at a higher RPM from a stop. True it does act like a lower gear which would also allow the engine to turn at a higher RPM where it produces more power but with the added benefit of having the higher gear once the torque converter reaches stall speed and couples better. By then of course the engine would, if it was all figured out right, have gotten to the point where it has enough power to carry that gearing. I still remember that lesson from having put a very low stall converter into a van to get better mileage (no lockup). Then I ended up stuck on a steep mountain trail on vacation when the engine couldn't turn enough RPM to to produce the power that was needed to push the van up the hill. If I had had the regular stall or even better a high stall converter the engine would have had a chance to get to a higher power point and possibly not gotten stopped by the grade. No I didn't change it when we got back home. Not enough need to go up off-road mountain trails. :-) Manfred -- OK Don CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. The Devil's Dictionary Ambrose Bierce ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
If you've ever driven an old 220D with a four speed auto and fluid coupling, you are familiar with the lack of torque at low speed. Engine rpm will NOT rise above the stall speed of the coupling plus road speed, makes for very slow acceleration until you get the engine spinning, and they are horrible on ice and snow. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Don't know if there is more slip for more hp -- in fact, you cannot develop hp, you can only use it. Hp is work. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
If you've ever driven an old 220D with a four speed auto and fluid coupling, you are familiar with the lack of torque at low speed. Engine rpm will NOT rise above the stall speed of the coupling plus road speed, makes for very slow acceleration until you get the engine spinning, and they are horrible on ice and snow. Our 250C (with that system) was not a dog. Don't know about its winter behavior, never tried it then. Don't know if there is more slip for more hp -- in fact, you cannot develop hp, you can only use it. Hp is work. When slipping, the excess developed horsepower is put into heat in the oil, rather than kinetic energy in the car. It's all gotta go somewhere! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
A 250C has a lot more low end torque that a 220D -- lot more hp, too, since that version cranked out a grand 65 in new condition. Mine was well worn! Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
The OD in the 700R4 is weak unless you really beef it up. Peter Hertzing wrote: After owning about 10 caddys with 700R4s here is what I think - out of the frying pan into the fire. Mine were all 60 inch stretch limos - but the Lincoln version is good for 300K while I was replacing 700R4s every 90K On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: Check this out, which I stumbled onto almost randomly tonight... http://transmissionadapters.com/Mercedes%20diesel.htm Put a 700R4 tranny in your W123?? Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2400 - Release Date: 09/28/09 05:51:00 -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 350SDL, 91 300D, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2400 - Release Date: 09/28/09 05:51:00 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Peter wrote: After owning about 10 caddys with 700R4s here is what I think - out of the frying pan into the fire. Mine were all 60 inch stretch limos - but the Lincoln version is good for 300K while I was replacing 700R4s every 90K. Are you sure you weren;t replacing the 200r4. That was the transmission on the RWD Big GM cars before the 700R4. In my experience at the dealership, we rarely had transmission problems. There were a few of the transmissions that had problems in 86-88. But, once they went to the more beefed up 4T60 and 4L60 and 4T60-E. Donald H. Snook ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
Thx for the link - interesting - I guess the advantage of using a GM transmission is the low prices for new/rebuilt trannys and lower repair costs? I assume there are lots more qualified tranny technicians to work on them? Hmm... as long as there's plenty of used trannys (Kaleb?) it should be fairly easy to find replacements. When my W123 AT dies a few years ago I found a good used AT for $300 delivered to a trans shop and they charged $550 to install it. So $850 all in for a used AT with the kit selling for $900+ and the AT cost on top of that. H... They talk about a different stall speed improving performance - how does that work? Thx LarryT Does your business accept or need to accept V/MC/AE/Dis? We have the best rates 0% Interest Business loans. Visit: http://www.merchantreferralsolutions.com/A365706 -- From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:08 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: [MBZ] transmission options Check this out, which I stumbled onto almost randomly tonight... http://transmissionadapters.com/Mercedes%20diesel.htm Put a 700R4 tranny in your W123?? Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] transmission options....
Check this out, which I stumbled onto almost randomly tonight... http://transmissionadapters.com/Mercedes%20diesel.htm Put a 700R4 tranny in your W123?? Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
After owning about 10 caddys with 700R4s here is what I think - out of the frying pan into the fire. Mine were all 60 inch stretch limos - but the Lincoln version is good for 300K while I was replacing 700R4s every 90K On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: Check this out, which I stumbled onto almost randomly tonight... http://transmissionadapters.com/Mercedes%20diesel.htm Put a 700R4 tranny in your W123?? Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] transmission options....
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:15:39 -0500 Peter Hertzing phertz...@gmail.com wrote: After owning about 10 caddys with 700R4s here is what I think - out of the frying pan into the fire. Mine were all 60 inch stretch limos - but the Lincoln version is good for 300K while I was replacing 700R4s every 90K And what about the driveshaft and its connection to the new transmission? Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
