Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
I checked boost at the IP thus line is clear. Also since it smokes I know it is getting fuel. The acceleration has a slight increase when the turbo kicks in, but not a lot. The engine does have lots of blow by and is an EGR engine, do all 617's have EGRs? I have adjusted the valves several times with no difference. Since the engine was smoking black smoke I know the fuel is getting into cylinders but it appears not enough oxygen is getting into cylinders, either due to plugged exhaust or plugged intake. I was thinking intake since I know theTDI's have problems with intake plugging. Regards, Trampas Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve MacSween Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 6:57 PM To: Mercedes mailing list Subject: Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have an 85 300SD with about 300k miles on it. The poor old car is slower than dirt. 0-60 times are in the days. That is not normal for 300k, especially on an '85 unless the car has HUGE blow-by. Questions: Does the car accelerate gradually, or start off slow then you feel a kick when the boost comes in? Are you CERTAIN the transmission is dropping back into first, when you give it pedal coming off a stop? When were the valves last adjusted? Have you checked (that is, made sure it's clean/clear) the pressure sensing line that runs from the manifold over to the overboost switch on the firewall? Just some quick ideas BTW I just purchased a 560SEL to replace the 300SD but with gas prices lately it may be a bad idea. Oh lordy, I'm afraid so. mac ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since the engine was smoking black smoke I know the fuel is getting into cylinders but it appears not enough oxygen is getting into cylinders, either due to plugged exhaust or plugged intake. I was thinking intake since I know theTDI's have problems with intake plugging. Okay, I forgot to mention the EGR. If it has not been disabled, then probably it is plugged up. I am 'cribbing' a response from another list, below, as the Web page that dealt with this (from the Ritter/Easley list) isn't responding tonight. (Or maybe my link is out of date?) The TDi problem is pretty much unique to that engine, and IIRC has something to do with the EGR setup (some valve or other) and the driving patterns of the owner. There's precious little to clog up on an OM617, it's just a gaping hole and a set of intake runners. Mac Previous response to an SD owner with similar symptoms to yours: 1. ALDA pressure line clogged: Hollow bolt / banjo fitting on intake manifold, and / or switchover (boost safety) valve need to be cleaned. If ALDA pressure line circuit is plugged, you get no power increase from the turbo. Slightly plugged, less power. The switchover valve is a safety device in the event of an over boost condition. Not good to bypass it but OK for a quick test to see if the valve is plugged up. Note: cap on top of switchover valve is a vented dust cap. Don't replace it with a solid rubber cap. Don't over torque hollow bolt when re-installing. Don't lose the two washers (one on each side of banjo fitting). Don't pull the plastic hose off the fitting. 2. EGR: Plug its vacuum line with a BB gun BB. Although this will keep the EGR from working, the valve may leak. Any leaking will reduce turbo boost. Fix is replace EGR (dumb since you want it disabled) or fabricate a solid metal plate (holes only for bolts) and install it between EGR and intake manifold. Maybe need a sealing gasket on each side of the plate. I haven't done this yet to my SD. 3. Air Recirculating Valve: If your '84 is a California emissions '84, it has a vacuum actuated Air Recirculating Valve on the output of the turbo, at the intake manifold, just to the left of the EGR. This valve cuts the turbo boost from 1000rpm to 2500rpm by 30 to 50%. Worse yet, if the vacuum system's return line vent filter is plugged up, the Air Recirculating Valve will be operating throughout the RPM range and your turbo boost will be reduced by 30 to 50% throughout the RPM range. If your 300SD has this valve, pull the vacuum hose from it and test drive the car. If you get more power off the line and all the way to ~ 5000 rpm, find and replace the vacuum return line vent filter, re-attach the hose to the Air Valve and test drive again. And then, trace the Air Valve vacuum line to the other end. It should be connected to the front port on the other switchover valve that's located near the front (passenger side) wheel well. Pull the rubber coupling hose from the port on the switchover valve and insert a BB gun BB in it. Re-attach coupling hose. 4. ALDA might be set too lean: Opening it up 1/2 to 1 turn (CCW) will increase power regardless of Items 2, 3, 5, and 6. 5. Waste gate spring may be fatigued. May need to tighten it up. Requires a boost gauge, several hours' time, and lots of patience. However, turbo manufacturers and repair outfits have told some list members that waste gate springs do not fatigue. I've tightened mine up almost as far as it will go. Since my boost is not at full ( 0.9bar + / - 0.1bar) spec., I will soon be checking my SD for manifold and EGR leaks. You should inspect, clean, plug, everything else before fiddling with the waste gate. When / if you fiddle with the waste gate, you must first adjust (open) the ALDA. 6. Other vacuum or pressure leaks: If shifts from gear to gear are harsh, you have vacuum leaks and your ALDA pressure line circuit is probably plugged up. Your brake booster could be going out. You should inspect / replace all rubber (vacuum) hose couplings. Especially any that are dry, cracked looking, or feel spongy. Do them one at a time so as not to re-attach any to the wrong ports.
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
Carbonned up injectors? Needs a couple of cans of Diesel purge and a lot of serious Italian tune-ups??? That's what the smoke makes me think of -- -- On 9/12/05, Trampas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I checked boost at the IP thus line is clear. Also since it smokes I know it is getting fuel. The acceleration has a slight increase when the turbo kicks in, but not a lot. The engine does have lots of blow by and is an EGR engine, do all 617's have EGRs? I have adjusted the valves several times with no difference. Since the engine was smoking black smoke I know the fuel is getting into cylinders but it appears not enough oxygen is getting into cylinders, either due to plugged exhaust or plugged intake. I was thinking intake since I know theTDI's have problems with intake plugging. Regards, Trampas Stern -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK '87 300SDL '81 240D '78 450SLC The FSM created the Diesel Benz http://www.venganza.org/
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
In a message dated 9/12/2005 4:21:42 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The engine does have lots of blow by and is an EGR engine, do all 617's have EGRs? Trampas, My 79 300SD does not have EGR but they started adding it in 1980. Most will recommend that you block the EGR off permanently. A thin metal plate where the EGR valve is mounted works wonders. A functioning EGR WILL clog up the intake manifold and build up carbon around the intake valves. Did you check chain stretch? Your chain could be bad enough to be retarding timing of both valves and fuel injection. The result would be loss of power and smoke! Regards Jim Friesen Phoenix AZ 79 300SD, 261 K miles 98 ML 320, 137 K miles
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
The intake doesn't carbon up on that car, but the pressure line to the ALDA does, and the overboost protection switchover valve often fails open. Check for a clear line between the manifold and the ALDA and make sure the switchover valve doesn't vent pressure when not energized. I would also check injection timing and chain stretch -- late injection and valve timing will make the car sluggish and smoke at full throttle. Peter
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
Does your 85 300SD have a trap-oxidizer? check for rust holes in it. Or it could be plugged up. The stuff inside can come loose and damage the turbo. I know someone who has a 85 300SD and it had the performance of a 240D (very small rust holes in trap) But now it runs like it should with a complete swap of the intake manifold, exhaust manifold,turbo and header pipe from a 81 300SD. I think he said the new trap cost $800. He also said there was some kind of recall but MB said his car already had that done. Russ H.
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
Trampas wrote: I have an 85 300SD with about 300k miles on it. The poor old car is slower than dirt. 0-60 times are in the days. I have checked the boost ALDL etc. The car will smoke when floored so I know it is getting fuel, and since the boost pressure is high I was assuming it was getting air. However I recently thought about the intake being plugged with carbon. Is the 617 known for this? I don't think the intake has ever been off on the car. What is the 0-60 acceleration time? If 15 seconds or better (16 seconds for a Calif. rated car) you are right where you belong and there is nothing that will substantially improve what you have without seriously compromising engine longevity. If slower than that, there is something wrong. It's MUCH more likely to be a stretched timing chain (more than 4-5 degrees) or plugged air filter than clogged intake manifold. I suppose it can happen but I know of lots of people (including me) that have cleaned out intake manifolds that seemed to be close to half full of soot/carbon residue and there was NEVER any measurable performance improvement. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine Department of Pharmacology 1300 BST Pittsburgh PA 15261 USA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
yeah!!! the POS SDL had a plugged trap and made the same Bondian smoke and gutless motion. There were IP issues as well, but the Trap was a mess On Tuesday, September 13, 2005, at 06:33 AM, RAH wrote: Does your 85 300SD have a trap-oxidizer? check for rust holes in it. Or it could be plugged up. The stuff inside can come loose and damage the turbo. I know someone who has a 85 300SD and it had the performance of a 240D (very small rust holes in trap) But now it runs like it should with a complete swap of the intake manifold, exhaust manifold,turbo and header pipe from a 81 300SD. I think he said the new trap cost $800. He also said there was some kind of recall but MB said his car already had that done. Russ H. ___ For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
there were actually at least 2 separate Campaigns to change out Particulate Traps; my '85 300D had it done the first time @ ~66K miles to replace the original TO, and again just a couple of years ago at MBZs insistence to replace that TO with yet a different one. neither of these changes cost me anything; they were both paid for by MBZ. i've heard that recently some of the larger indies have been getting calls from MBZ USA looking for more of the TOs; apparently there may not be any more available. cheers! e '85 300D Does your 85 300SD have a trap-oxidizer? check for rust holes in it. Or it could be plugged up. The stuff inside can come loose and damage the turbo. I know someone who has a 85 300SD and it had the performance of a 240D (very small rust holes in trap) But now it runs like it should with a complete swap of the intake manifold, exhaust manifold,turbo and header pipe from a 81 300SD. I think he said the new trap cost $800. He also said there was some kind of recall but MB said his car already had that done. Russ H
Re: [MBZ] 300SD Intake carbon
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have an 85 300SD with about 300k miles on it. The poor old car is slower than dirt. 0-60 times are in the days. That is not normal for 300k, especially on an '85 unless the car has HUGE blow-by. Questions: Does the car accelerate gradually, or start off slow then you feel a kick when the boost comes in? Are you CERTAIN the transmission is dropping back into first, when you give it pedal coming off a stop? When were the valves last adjusted? Have you checked (that is, made sure it's clean/clear) the pressure sensing line that runs from the manifold over to the overboost switch on the firewall? Just some quick ideas BTW I just purchased a 560SEL to replace the 300SD but with gas prices lately it may be a bad idea. Oh lordy, I'm afraid so. mac
