Re: [MBZ] Factoids
The shift started earlier than that. Ike warned against it in his admonition that we not ensnare ourselves to the military industrial complex. Too many corrupt unions and corporations to sink their hooks into free money. Then LBJ gave away the ranch so that those undesirous of labor, could avail themselves of the rewards of hard work without the need to perspire. This served to educate the bulk of the newly entitled that they did not need to contribute to the Great Society, just suckle at the teat and all will be provided. No need for any form of hard work, be it in education, self control, self reliance, or employment. If you can pay the public to stay down, they will not see any reason to rise beyond their humble station. Conversely, the people with drive will hustle and use their ambition to make strides to separate themselves from the lowly status into which they may have been born. All we need do it look at the people with whom we attended secondary school. At the most recent reunion, who of the survivors had made anything of themselves? Were they even in attendance? Had they moved beyond their given station or remained in the rut laid before them? Could you see that path fairly clearly at the time you first knew them or did it come about after they became adults? Honestly, you knew which of the people already had a barstool with their name on it and would remain there for the next half century, and the others who just did not slow down and would become somebody, even if it killed them. The yearbook never got the prediction right. clay On Sep 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: The great shift of wealth from the middle class to the rich started in the late 60's during the Nixon Administration. It's been getting worse every since, heavily promoted by the republicans. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
I have 2 thoughts on this issue: #1. So? Whoopdy doo, its a fact. A lot like saying theres oxygen in air. Theres nothing you can do about it. #2. It seems like there are too many people who's whole job is to spit out these facts rather than actually doing real work. -Curt Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 23:12:02 -0400 From: Gerry Archer arche...@embarqmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids Message-ID: D7D23C7BED9548338A7BEF3CA12B2B74@PC466116028214 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Income inequality in the United States has grown significantly since the early 1970s, after several decades of stability, and has been the subject of study of many scholars and institutions. While inequality has risen among most developed countries, and especially English-speaking ones, it is highest in the United States. Most of the growth has been between the middle class and top earners, with the disparity becoming more extreme the further one goes up in the income distribution. A 2011 study by the CBO found that the top earning 1 percent of households increased their income by about 275% after federal taxes and income transfers over a period between 1979 and 2007... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
your a looser --R On 9/12/13 9:24 AM, Curt Raymond wrote: Same as expecting debate without personal attacks when talking to conservatives... -Curt Well hello Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle. Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 19:33:46 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino gf...@dslnorthwest.net To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids Message-ID: 021101ceaf60$821bbc20$86533460$@net Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii Asking for facts is an unfair rhetorical device when debating with liberals. Greg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Same as expecting debate without personal attacks when talking to conservatives... -Curt Well hello Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle. Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 19:33:46 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino gf...@dslnorthwest.net To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids Message-ID: 021101ceaf60$821bbc20$86533460$@net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Asking for facts is an unfair rhetorical device when debating with liberals. Greg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Hey! Give him a brake! Dan On Sep 12, 2013, at 9:35 AM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: your a looser --R On 9/12/13 9:24 AM, Curt Raymond wrote: Same as expecting debate without personal attacks when talking to conservatives... -Curt Well hello Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle. Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 19:33:46 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino gf...@dslnorthwest.net To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids Message-ID: 021101ceaf60$821bbc20$86533460$@net Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii Asking for facts is an unfair rhetorical device when debating with liberals. Greg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Maybe I should have used the more generic term reward vs income. But it's the same principle. Your DIY work gives you a reward. With greater skill and better tools you can produce an even greater reward for yourself. Best of all, the government doesn't get a piece of your reward. If they did, you might be REQUIRED to perform DIY work for others who either lacked the skills or motivation to do it themselves. -Original Message- From: Mountain Man Scott wrote: ...earn the same as a drunk who shows up occasionally to stock shelves? If so, where is the incentive to produce things of value? I call straw man. I also encourage us to DIY. There is satisfaction in DIY, regardless of income. Be happy. Income disparity is a ploy to foment discontent. Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without. Income? - yep, I am doing without... so that my kids and Curt do not need to pay for existence of an old guy in Illinois. My time has lots of good memories. Discontent is not good for the soul. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Or conservatives - both sides adhere to their dogma, regardless of reality. 43% of all statistics are made up on the spot. On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Greg Fiorentino gf...@dslnorthwest.netwrote: Asking for facts is an unfair rhetorical device when debating with liberals. Greg -- OK Don They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin 1775 in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes. - Benjamin Franklin 1789 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
That was not a personal attack, rather an attack on a class of people, based on the FACT that much (if not ALL) of the arguments by liberals are appeals to emotion rather than reason. Greg, some of whose best friends (and family members) are liberals -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 6:25 AM To: Diesel List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids Same as expecting debate without personal attacks when talking to conservatives... -Curt Well hello Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle. Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 19:33:46 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino gf...@dslnorthwest.net To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids Message-ID: 021101ceaf60$821bbc20$86533460$@net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Asking for facts is an unfair rhetorical device when debating with liberals. Greg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Scott wrote: ...earn the same as a drunk who shows up occasionally to stock shelves? If so, where is the incentive to produce things of value? I call straw man. I also encourage us to DIY. There is satisfaction in DIY, regardless of income. Be happy. Income disparity is a ploy to foment discontent. Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without. Income? - yep, I am doing without... so that my kids and Curt do not need to pay for existence of an old guy in Illinois. My time has lots of good memories. Discontent is not good for the soul. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
The fall of the empire is nigh. The Romans fell when they quit being grounded and became effete multiculturalists. Our culture is derivative and weak. Nobody wants to work to gain the perks of life. The society teaches them to expect to be cared for and given cable TV, a home, healthcare, a job or at least an income somebody else paid taxes to cover. They are divorced from the requirements to succeed, which are hard work, ambition, self reliance, and acceptance of risk. The public has become afraid to succeed or take on risk. The winning 1% make risky choices that pay off. Some actually make something tangible that builds our economy. The rest of this loot is fog and mirrors of the Madoff sort. When they try to cash in, the markets will implode, since there is nothing really there. Same song as the last bubble in 2007. But that started in 2005. I went to auctions for mortgage companies in 2006 that failed because there was no There there. Bill Gates and Microsoft are a ponzi scheme that took off. Same with most of the consumer goods that allow us to speed up our lives. We traded being in touch with our lives and its limits for the ability to stop thinking and have toys we really do not need. To eat food we did not cook, but unboxed and heated. That we did not grow, have no connection to beyond the box it came in, or how it came to be. We pay multiples of the real value for products labeled for marketing, organic, low fat, gluten free, all natural, better, new, healthy, hybrid. If the 99% would bother to cast off their self imposed chains. Make the sacrifices to their consumerist lifestyle, and focus their energy on succeeding. This will level the system a little. When the worker earns true value for his input instead of causing disruption for not getting their way, we will see a better economy. Seattle is trying to dig a massive transportation tunnel with a giant digging machine. All work has stopped because four UNION guys are doing the job FOUR other UNION guys, different unions, think they should be doing. Get over it. The task at hand needs to be done. There are enough staff doing the jobs needed. Because your criminal labor organization is not doing them, we stop work, increase cost of business, become litigious, put increased financial cost on tax payers, and the only guys making money, are the overpaid public employees clay On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:47 PM, Gerry Archer wrote: Recent survey shows inequality in the US is at its new peak. The richest 1 percent of the population received almost a fifth of the national households' income in 2012, thus breaking the previous record set in 1928. -- The top 10 percent of earners took more than half of the country's total income in 2012, the highest level recorded since the government began collecting the relevant data a century ago, according to an updated study by the prominent economists Emmanuel Saez and Thomas Piketty. The figures underscore that even after the recession the country remains in a new Gilded Age, with income as concentrated as it was in the years that preceded the Depression of the 1930s, if not more so. These results suggest the Great Recession has only depressed top income shares temporarily and will not undo any of the dramatic increase in top income shares that has taken place since the 1970s, Mr. Saez, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley, wrote in his analysis of the data. The income share of the top 1 percent of earners in 2012 returned to the same level as before both the Great Recession and the Great Depression: just above 20 percent, jumping to about 22.5 percent in 2012 from 19.7 percent in 2011. Comment? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Gee, you must be confusing Richard Nixon and Barack Obama. Sorry to say, you may be needing a new vision prescription. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
The Romans fell when they got a nice empire and started getting filthy rich off other people's work. A massive disease outbreak in the army didn't help much, either. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net The Romans fell when they got a nice empire and started getting filthy rich off other people's work. A massive disease outbreak in the army didn't help much, either. Peter The theories of the decline of the Roman Empire were introduced by Edward Gibbon, in his widely read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776). There is ongoing debate about what actually happened to the Roman Empire in the 4th-5th centuries. Many theories have been explored and most concern the disintegration of political, economic, military, and other social institutions, along with barbarian invasions and usurpers from within the empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net Gee, you must be confusing Richard Nixon and Barack Obama. Sorry to say, you may be needing a new vision prescription. Peter Huh? Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Given the general level of education, determination and diligence in the US today it is surprising that the lower 90% earns as much as 50%. We don't need to take from the top 10%, we need to have the remaining 90% contribute more to society AND earn more. It is all about producing things and services of value. Granted this has not been easy in the Obama recovery, but hey my grandparents and parents faced MUCH more difficult economic conditions and survived, persevered and ensured that my generation would do somewhat better through discipline and education. If you don't like enriching the 10% or 1%, don't buy the stuff they are selling. Greg -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Archer Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:47 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] Factoids Recent survey shows inequality in the US is at its new peak. The richest 1 percent of the population received almost a fifth of the national households' income in 2012, thus breaking the previous record set in 1928. -- The top 10 percent of earners took more than half of the country's total income in 2012, the highest level recorded since the government began collecting the relevant data a century ago, according to an updated study by the prominent economists Emmanuel Saez and Thomas Piketty. The figures underscore that even after the recession the country remains in a new Gilded Age, with income as concentrated as it was in the years that preceded the Depression of the 1930s, if not more so. These results suggest the Great Recession has only depressed top income shares temporarily and will not undo any of the dramatic increase in top income shares that has taken place since the 1970s, Mr. Saez, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley, wrote in his analysis of the data. The income share of the top 1 percent of earners in 2012 returned to the same level as before both the Great Recession and the Great Depression: just above 20 percent, jumping to about 22.5 percent in 2012 from 19.7 percent in 2011. Comment? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
On Sep 11, 2013 2:47 PM, Gerry Archer arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: Recent survey shows inequality in the US is at its new peak. The richest 1 percent of the population received almost a fifth of the national households' income in 2012, thus breaking the previous record set in 1928. A statement that is devoid of meaning or significance unless you can follow it up with an argument that income inequality is in some way harmful or immoral, without appealing to Marxist class envy. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
The great shift of wealth from the middle class to the rich started in the late 60's during the Nixon Administration. It's been getting worse every since, heavily promoted by the republicans. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
1929. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Alex wrote: A statement that is devoid of meaning or significance unless you can follow it up with an argument that income inequality is in some way harmful or immoral, without appealing to Marxist class envy. I don't like not having money, but... money don't buy me love. Why bitch about reality? Equality has never been reality. To learn how to manage and do without becomes strength. Weakness is formed in depending on someone else to do things for us. Complain about stuff that we have zero control is meaningless. Be happy. Don't become part of the problem (entitlement economy), become part of the solution. DIY okiebenz is a good example of the solution. DIY, or do without, or, as the Old New England Saw says, use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without. (obtained from the Ligget's shampoo bar made in New England) No complaint at what you wrote, Alex - just my notes about agreement with what you wrote. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Peter, That's an interesting assertion. Is it opinion or do you have facts that support it? What caused this trend? Were there certain new laws or government policies that caused the trend? What are the chains of causes and effects responsible for this lamentable condition? How did the republicans (or Republicans) promote this? Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:01 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids The great shift of wealth from the middle class to the rich started in the late 60's during the Nixon Administration. It's been getting worse every since, heavily promoted by the republicans. Peter ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Asking for facts is an unfair rhetorical device when debating with liberals. Greg -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ritchey Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 6:54 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids Peter, That's an interesting assertion. Is it opinion or do you have facts that support it? What caused this trend? Were there certain new laws or government policies that caused the trend? What are the chains of causes and effects responsible for this lamentable condition? How did the republicans (or Republicans) promote this? Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:01 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Factoids The great shift of wealth from the middle class to the rich started in the late 60's during the Nixon Administration. It's been getting worse every since, heavily promoted by the republicans. Peter ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Income inequality in the United States has grown significantly since the early 1970s, after several decades of stability, and has been the subject of study of many scholars and institutions. While inequality has risen among most developed countries, and especially English-speaking ones, it is highest in the United States. Most of the growth has been between the middle class and top earners, with the disparity becoming more extreme the further one goes up in the income distribution. A 2011 study by the CBO found that the top earning 1 percent of households increased their income by about 275% after federal taxes and income transfers over a period between 1979 and 2007... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States Peter, That's an interesting assertion. Is it opinion or do you have facts that support it? What caused this trend? Were there certain new laws or government policies that caused the trend? What are the chains of causes and effects responsible for this lamentable condition? How did the republicans (or Republicans) promote this? Scott On Behalf Of Peter Frederick The great shift of wealth from the middle class to the rich started in the late 60's during the Nixon Administration. It's been getting worse every since, heavily promoted by the republicans. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Factoids
Income inequality, per se, is not a bad thing. Should an MD who invested many years and thousands earn the same as a drunk who shows up occasionally to stock shelves? If so, where is the incentive to produce things of value? The real problem, from a fairness perspective, is misalignment between wages and the value of work performed. Supply and demand should sort this out but there are many artificial constrains (aka laws and regulations) that prevent this from happening. For example, minimum wage laws make it cheaper to ship jobs overseas. Even so, social welfare programs pay better than minimum wage jobs. Other regulations make it so hard to start new competing small businesses that current big businesses (and their overpaid CEOs) have a virtual monopoly. As Pogo said, we have met the enemy and he is us. Maybe we need more inequality. -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Archer Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 5:47 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] Factoids Recent survey shows inequality in the US is at its new peak. The richest 1 percent of the population received almost a fifth of the national households' income in 2012, thus breaking the previous record set in 1928. -- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
