Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
Ok so I have rough idle, knock loudest after start but now I can still hear it after motor warmed up, instant start, decent power, rebuilt injectors, compression of 290 in #4 and 390 in the others. Seems like a bad valve guide as I can hear air leak near #4 at the head when turning it by hand. Valves have been adjusted and checked again for good measure. No oil in water or vice versa. Does low compression cause knocking? Otherwise I fear lower end badness. Doubt injection pump problem as this is new at about 190k On Oct 4, 2014 10:26 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: There are several things that can cause rough idle with instant start -- most probably are different pop pressures between the injectors, which is more or less inevietable with age and use, and leaking pressure valve seals. Very rare for the pressure valves themselves to leak, but I suppose it could happen. A badly balanced IP could do the same thing, but would have done so from the factory in most cases. It is necessary to adjust the rack for each plunger set so they deliver exactly the same amount of fuel as the others, and if that is wrong, or the clamps on the rack slip or the plunger set comes loose and shifts, you will get both different amounts of fuel injected at idle for the different cylinders, and the exact timing of injection can also be different. The result is rough idle. The usual cause is worn injectors -- different pop pressures, worn nozzles giving different or very poor spray patterns, etc. SEcond in line is leaking delivery valve seals, but again, this isn't a problem that occurs with time, usually it's a result of them not sealing properly when the 0-rings that seal the delivery valves off from the outside start to leak and have to be replaced. Tight valves on a 615 can cause trouble, but it's usually accompanied by hard starts due to compression loss. Ditto for a leaking head gasket. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: https://server.secureplusplusfour.net:2083/cpsess595060604/3rdparty/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
Having that linkage break while driving would not be my favorite thing in the world. That sounds like a very nice emergency fix. I hope to remember it if I ever need it. Manfred Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 12:17:40 -0500 From: M. Mitchell Marmel marme...@gmail.com Had fun for about an hour this morning. I fixed the accelerator linkage on the firewall of the red TD. Had that happen on a 450SEL-on the side of the interstate! No good atall. Wound up sticking in a small socket in lieu of the bushing, which held me until I got home and could order a replacement... -MMM- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
I bought a 78 SL C for cheap that had several broken linkage bushings. Very poky- top speed was 45 mph IIRC. .. -- Sent from myMail app for Android Monday, 06 October 2014, 07:34AM -0400 from MG via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com: Having that linkage break while driving would not be my favorite thing in the world. That sounds like a very nice emergency fix. I hope to remember it if I ever need it. Manfred Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 12:17:40 -0500 From: M. Mitchell Marmel marme...@gmail.com Had fun for about an hour this morning. I fixed the accelerator linkage on the firewall of the red TD. Had that happen on a 450SEL-on the side of the interstate! No good atall. Wound up sticking in a small socket in lieu of the bushing, which held me until I got home and could order a replacement... -MMM- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 20:08:20 +0400 astrasfogel--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: I bought a 78 SL C for cheap that had several broken linkage bushings. ^ | Why the space? --| I've noticed it on other emails, too. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
Must be your end Craig, Andrew's emails look fine too me. Max Dillon, Charleston SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
I'm seeing it too, rando m s paces when Andrew writes SL C. -Curt From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com; Craig McCluskey diese...@pisquared.net Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD Must be your end Craig, Andrew's emails look fine too me. Max Dillon, Charleston SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
Because that's the correct way! Look it up. On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: I'm seeing it too, rando m s paces when Andrew writes SL C. -Curt From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com; Craig McCluskey diese...@pisquared.net Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD Must be your end Craig, Andrew's emails look fine too me. Max Dillon, Charleston SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 20:29:08 -0400 Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Because that's the correct way! Look it up. Where? Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
Mercedes coffee table books, service manuals and any other OFFICIAL Daimler Benz publication. I would send a link except I can't track any down. Also, try looking on the trunk lid of the car itself: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/cto/4700485168.html Andrew Trying to hide a smug grin On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 20:29:08 -0400 Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Because that's the correct way! Look it up. Where? Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
my 78 240D also has a lumpy idle. hopefully we'll hear a good answer...I'm looking forward to hear what bad delivery valves might do for a lumpy idle... when I rebuilt the engine several years ago I did not change the DVs. Also, like your engine, my starts at the 1st turn over even if it's been sitting for several weeks. LarryT 78 240D 91 300D On 10/2/2014 7:46 PM, MG via Mercedes wrote: Thanks Wilton. May want to save them for a bit. I tried adjusting the valves after I got done with the linkage fix but it didn't change things too much. Not quite as bad at idle but still jumps. One of the exhaust valves was at .006 and all the valves no matter which were tight. I think the next thing is to take the injectors out and see what the pop pressure is and how spray pattern looks. The glow plugs are all at 1.0 or 1.1. Despite the lumpy idle it starts right up at the first lick so that would leave out glow plugs. However I don't know if the delivery valves and springs might cause a very lumpy idle. Anyone have experience with that? Manfred WILTON wrote: ATTABOY! Wilton - Original Message - From: MG via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 11:23 AM Subject: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD Had fun for about an hour this morning. I fixed the accelerator linkage on the firewall of the red TD. I hate those linkages because they break at that crumbly plastic that MB used to make the pivot bushing. Then given the fact that they want anywhere from 45-65 for a new one with the same bushing that will crumble again in a few years, well not for me. I fixed it right this time and I doubt it will break again in my lifetime. Cost? Free. Take an old used, or new if you want, bushing for the front swaybar to upper control arm. Carefully grind both sides top and bottom and slide it onto the solid white (Delrin?) center part of the pivot. With a bit of fitting everything fits together and the pivot works like new. I'm happy. Manfred ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 10:23 AM, MG via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Had fun for about an hour this morning. I fixed the accelerator linkage on the firewall of the red TD. I hate those linkages because they break at that crumbly plastic that MB used to make the pivot bushing. Then given the fact that they want anywhere from 45-65 for a new one with the same bushing that will crumble again in a few years, well not for me. I fixed it right this time and I doubt it will break again in my lifetime. Cost? Free. Take an old used, or new if you want, bushing for the front swaybar to upper control arm. Carefully grind both sides top and bottom and slide it onto the solid white (Delrin?) center part of the pivot. With a bit of fitting everything fits together and the pivot works like new. Had that happen on a 450SEL-on the side of the interstate! No good atall. Wound up sticking in a small socket in lieu of the bushing, which held me until I got home and could order a replacement... -MMM- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
There are several things that can cause rough idle with instant start -- most probably are different pop pressures between the injectors, which is more or less inevietable with age and use, and leaking pressure valve seals. Very rare for the pressure valves themselves to leak, but I suppose it could happen. A badly balanced IP could do the same thing, but would have done so from the factory in most cases. It is necessary to adjust the rack for each plunger set so they deliver exactly the same amount of fuel as the others, and if that is wrong, or the clamps on the rack slip or the plunger set comes loose and shifts, you will get both different amounts of fuel injected at idle for the different cylinders, and the exact timing of injection can also be different. The result is rough idle. The usual cause is worn injectors -- different pop pressures, worn nozzles giving different or very poor spray patterns, etc. SEcond in line is leaking delivery valve seals, but again, this isn't a problem that occurs with time, usually it's a result of them not sealing properly when the 0-rings that seal the delivery valves off from the outside start to leak and have to be replaced. Tight valves on a 615 can cause trouble, but it's usually accompanied by hard starts due to compression loss. Ditto for a leaking head gasket. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
Excuse my ignorance, but what are pressure valves/pressure valve seals? Otherwise thanks for the tutorial. Scott -Original Message- From: Peter Frederick via Mercedes Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:26 PM There are several things that can cause rough idle with instant start -- most probably are different pop pressures between the injectors, which is more or less inevietable with age and use, and leaking pressure valve seals. Very rare for the pressure valves themselves to leak, but I suppose it could happen. A badly balanced IP could do the same thing, but would have done so from the factory in most cases. It is necessary to adjust the rack for each plunger set so they deliver exactly the same amount of fuel as the others, and if that is wrong, or the clamps on the rack slip or the plunger set comes loose and shifts, you will get both different amounts of fuel injected at idle for the different cylinders, and the exact timing of injection can also be different. The result is rough idle. The usual cause is worn injectors -- different pop pressures, worn nozzles giving different or very poor spray patterns, etc. SEcond in line is leaking delivery valve seals, but again, this isn't a problem that occurs with time, usually it's a result of them not sealing properly when the 0-rings that seal the delivery valves off from the outside start to leak and have to be replaced. Tight valves on a 615 can cause trouble, but it's usually accompanied by hard starts due to compression loss. Ditto for a leaking head gasket. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
The injectors are the easiest to get to for sure. I haven't done delivery valve seals though I do have a set of the valves as well as the seals and springs which I bought to do the job on a 300D that I gave to my youngest daughter. It however turned out not to need it. After I ordered the parts I looked around the engine some more and saw that the rack damper bolt was turned out quite far and upon turning it in to about the same location as on the other cars I found that the idle smoothed right out. Don't know why it was out that far but it did provide a quick easy fix and turned a $600 car into nice transportation which is still going strong after 3 years. I think I did replace the rack damper bolt on my old yellow 300D. If I remember right it was a very tight fit to get it out with the oil filter right there. In any case we will find out what the root cause is as time goes by and I get a chance to work on it some more. Manfred Curly McLain wrote: Check nozzles first, as you said. Then it is delivery valve seals and possibly delivery valves. Because I have done this numerous times, to me it is easier than rack damper. Then I'd go after the rack damper. You may want to reverse 2 and 3 depending on your comfort level. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
Yes I was also considering the rack damper. I even have a new damper screw to put in there. It did look like someone had tried to adjust that because there are no more threads on the screw visible any more. Which leads me to think that this has been going on a while. I may just stick that in there and see what it does but I don't expect much. Your thought of injectors will probably be more in line with the final cause since while the lope does get better with speed it never really goes away. Unfortunately it may be a few days till I get to the point of taking the injectors out and testing them. Manfred Peter Frederick wrote: leaking pressure valve seals result in variable fuel delivery and injection timing at idle and low speed. Bad cases cause excessive knock as well, that goes away with speed increase. instant start means you don't need to worry about compression (rings good, valves sealing pretty well), but bad injectors can definitely cause lumpy idle. On the 617, though, especially later models, a weak rack control spring can allow the rack to vibrate back and forth in time with the longitudinal vibration of the 5 cylinder, and after a certain point you either have to rebuild the pump (the spring is on the far end of the rack, not the near end) or put up with it. Shakes like crazy at idle but runs well with no smoke,etc. I have at least two weak glow plugs, so I guess all my play money this month will go into the car -- turbo rebuild and new glow plugs. Misses badly on a couple cylinders on startup with lots of white smoke, but once I rev it up a bit runs fine. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
ATTABOY! Wilton - Original Message - From: MG via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 11:23 AM Subject: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD Had fun for about an hour this morning. I fixed the accelerator linkage on the firewall of the red TD. I hate those linkages because they break at that crumbly plastic that MB used to make the pivot bushing. Then given the fact that they want anywhere from 45-65 for a new one with the same bushing that will crumble again in a few years, well not for me. I fixed it right this time and I doubt it will break again in my lifetime. Cost? Free. Take an old used, or new if you want, bushing for the front swaybar to upper control arm. Carefully grind both sides top and bottom and slide it onto the solid white (Delrin?) center part of the pivot. With a bit of fitting everything fits together and the pivot works like new. I'm happy. Manfred ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
leaking pressure valve seals result in variable fuel delivery and injection timing at idle and low speed. Bad cases cause excessive knock as well, that goes away with speed increase. instant start means you don't need to worry about compression (rings good, valves sealing pretty well), but bad injectors can definitely cause lumpy idle. On the 617, though, especially later models, a weak rack control spring can allow the rack to vibrate back and forth in time with the longitudinal vibration of the 5 cylinder, and after a certain point you either have to rebuild the pump (the spring is on the far end of the rack, not the near end) or put up with it. Shakes like crazy at idle but runs well with no smoke,etc. I have at least two weak glow plugs, so I guess all my play money this month will go into the car -- turbo rebuild and new glow plugs. Misses badly on a couple cylinders on startup with lots of white smoke, but once I rev it up a bit runs fine. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] new fix on new/old TD
Check nozzles first, as you said. Then it is delivery valve seals and possibly delivery valves. Because I have done this numerous times, to me it is easier than rack damper. Then I'd go after the rack damper. You may want to reverse 2 and 3 depending on your comfort level. Thanks Wilton. May want to save them for a bit. I tried adjusting the valves after I got done with the linkage fix but it didn't change things too much. Not quite as bad at idle but still jumps. One of the exhaust valves was at .006 and all the valves no matter which were tight. I think the next thing is to take the injectors out and see what the pop pressure is and how spray pattern looks. The glow plugs are all at 1.0 or 1.1. Despite the lumpy idle it starts right up at the first lick so that would leave out glow plugs. However I don't know if the delivery valves and springs might cause a very lumpy idle. Anyone have experience with that? Manfred ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
