Re: An informal poll....
jbv wrote: BTW I think one should extend the poll to Rev list... I'm wondering if the responses would be similar... I am very sure that the results will be quite different. My feeling is that dynamic scripting is not something that beginners and hobbysts use much. MC was strongly geared to professional developers (whatever that means) whereas Rev went after masses. I share your opinion about different results for the poll on theRev list. But Shari's original question didn't mention dynamic scripting... I for one don't care too much about dynamic scripting : I understand it's a powerful feature, but also know by experience that it's not recommended bcause it's almost impossible to debug. Furthermore, as several earlier posts showed, in numerous situations there are workarounds and alternatives. Actually I was more concerned by the way features of the engine could be abandonned by the new RR team in a near future. And gathering data about how Rev users envision / approach / consider that tool, could give us insights on possible future strategies from the RR team... Unless a real poll proves me wrong, I guess we'd find hobbyists (some of them quite experienced) looking for a HyperCard or OMO reincarnation, or multimedia programers in search for a nice (and cheaper) replacement for Director... BTW, considering the number of bugs crashes in Rev 1.0, I'm surprised that licences brought enough money to buy MC... As for me, I see it mostly these days as a LINK (or a hub) between technologies. Which other tool allows you to quickly prototype (and finalize) prof. cross-platform apps that can, in a few lines of code, talk to other similar apps on a network, send CGI requests to a server, use XML / SQL / PHP, eventually access openGL on each client, etc etc etc ? Last week I had a meeting with a possible client, and I was explaining that MC was the missing link between Director and Code Warrior. Since I've been involved in prog. of externals in C for a few months, I see many similarities between MC and C development : using MC properties functions is very closed to including libraries and using APIs. And when the stuff is done, execution speed is pretty close. But development time is quite different ! And last but not least, cross-platform compatibility can become a real headache in C, while in MC it's a breeze... And I won't even mention compilation ! And last but not least, I have the strong feeling that the future of xTalk is not at all HC reincarnation, but rather to provide end users with the power of Code Warrior (or eventually Visual C) without the headaches... And that more palettes and a less basic GUI is no big deal... Perhaps does it mean more licenses right now, but things might change in a near future, because end users are getting more more educated experienced, projects more sophisticated, etc etc Just compare the apps you were doing with HC in 1991 or OMO in 1995 and what you are doing today... And imagine what you'll be doing (or asked to do by clients) in 2006... What will really help you : sophisticated palettes ? Or powerful features like dynamic scripting, scriptable antialiased vector graphics, scriptable interactive 3D, etc etc etc ? So let's find a way to make sure that the strategy of ppl at RR (as well as Rev list members if needed) isn't to tear up the existing engine (by removing dynamic scripting, abandoning CGI, asking for a license fee per platform, put your bigest fear here), but rather to improve what already exists. JB ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Thanks for this ! -- Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores Inspection académique de Seine-Saint-Denis Serveurs d'applications et SGBDR (Web/PGI) Penser et produire l'avantage compétitif ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: An informal poll....
BTW I think one should extend the poll to Rev list... I'm wondering if the responses would be similar... JB Perhaps you would forward the poll? The results are not for my benefit anyway. I just thought the Rev/MC folks might be interested. I am not on the Rev list. Until/unless I upgrade to Rev, I hesitate to clutter up my mailbox with discussions that may not be relevant to MC. If I ask a programming question, I want to make sure the answer is valid for me. I already get sooo many emails in a day! Shari C -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: An informal poll....
How many, who have purchased licenses, use MC/Rev to build standalones, that will be distributed to others? I don't create much for my own use. 99% of everything I do, is for distribution, to produce income. The rest of you? The same, there. Me too. Sounds like there is still room for a genuine HyperCard successor that is free, open-source, easier to use, and without *any* artificial *limits*. I'm alluding to *FreeCard*, of course, which currently requires more work than there is help/labour to do it, but if we are determined enough, we *CAN* pull this off. Here are some of the ways we could go about creating the GUI portion of FreeCard : * Evolve it as a clone of HyperCard, as we're doing now, with MC (and with RR too if some adjustments are made). Kevin has granted FreeGUI an exemption from their clause prohibiting the development of a competing RAD with RR. * Now that the MC-GUI has been become open-source, an alternative would be to work directly on the MC-GUI to improve it -- evolve it into FreeCard's GUI. * Once we get the XML stuff worked out (current work), the FreeCard engine will be able to generate its own GUI, as ultimately it will have to. But are xCard folks willing to start with something very modest then work our way up to the feature sets of MC/RR and then beyond? * I have been considering lately using PHP4 to create a web-only version of FreeGUI. And now that I have learned PHP, I realize joyfully that PHP is a scriptingLanguage and its syntax is relatively close to HyperTalk. Plus it is **hugely** popular, there are tons of samples docs, even complete [CMS] systems which are open source and free, etc. And because it is open source, it's source code can be modified to make it more like MetaTalk (and more like HyperTalk too). Which of these four alternatives is the most attractive to those empowered among us who insist on taking charge of their own destiny? C'mon folks! Let's get off this merry-go-round once and for all! Alain Farmer __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: An informal poll....
on 8/7/03 2:44 PM, Shari at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of this talk about something working with a licensed Home stack versus as standalone make me wonder How many, who have purchased licenses, use MC/Rev to build standalones, that will be distributed to others? That was THE REASON I purchased. Instead of migrating from Hypercard to C/C++, I moved to MC. I don't create much for my own use. 99% of everything I do, is for distribution, to produce income. The rest of you? Absolutely! Ray Horsley Developer, LinkIt! Software ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: An informal poll....
BTW I think one should extend the poll to Rev list... I'm wondering if the responses would be similar... I am very sure that the results will be quite different. My feeling is that dynamic scripting is not something that beginners and hobbysts use much. MC was strongly geared to professional developers (whatever that means) whereas Rev went after masses. There was an interesting post by Dan Schafer on Rev list regarding that (I duplicate it below for those who don't subscribe to Rev list). He makes good points and I really think that this is how Rev sees things. Unfortunately, I also think that this means a slow death of Rev as a pro developer tool, although it will continue as a more powerful and more feature-rich hypercard reincarnation. Of course, it does not have to be that way if Rev sees the light. But the changing of script limits, talk about adding smade-with splash, the recent product lineup changes clearly indicate that they are after selling more licenses than worrying about developers producing quality standalone products for distribution to others (paid or not). Robert Brenstein Subject: Marketing Rev in Other Worlds (was Re: Script Limits and solid IDE evolution!) From: Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Revolution List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:04:24 -0700 This discussion of the need for the RunRev folks to market not just the product but the underlying xtalk/xcard paradigm to the world of Windows in particular raises for me another issue that I think prevents the product from achieving the kind of brilliant Aha! success it richly deserves. I refer to the out-of-the-box experience. When I showed my wife HyperCard a few months before it was released, her reaction was, I get it. Get out of the way and let me play. Her response to Revolution when it opened was, What's this? Another programming thing? Professional programmers are going to be very slow to switch to Revolution or to any xThing for that matter. It's hard enough to get a programmer to change languages even when confronted with a demonstrably superior alternative (I know; I spent a few years trying to do that with Smalltalk). The real sweet spot market for Revolution, as it was for HyperCard and the other xCard products, is what I have long been referring to as the Inventive User (IU). IUs are people who: 1. Know their computers can do so much more to help them with their work than anyone has yet made them do. 2. Are smart and creative. 3. Can envision the solutions. 4. Are not professionally trained programmers or at least if they were at one point no longer earn their living coding 5. Probably working in a team or workgroup setting where they are the local IT department Those folks -- and there are millions of them -- NEED Revolution. Badly. But they're not going to take the time to tinker and learn the product after opening Revolution and being faced with a blank screen and a bunch of loosely connected floating palettes. Heck, they don't even get a blank stack window let alone a starting point. That was HyperCard's genius. Out of the box, it was engaging, enticing and harmless-looking. It *seduced* you into being a programmer. And when it did, you kissed it. IMNSHO, RunRev should be putting a lot of time, energy and money into creating a dynamite out-of-the-box experience for that category of user. I know how I'd go about that, but it would take a lot of time to develop it and I'm busy writing my books about RunRev at the moment. ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolutionary Author of forthcoming 3-book set, Revolution: Programming at the Speed of Thought http://www.revolutionpros.com for More Info ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: An informal poll....
How many, who have purchased licenses, use MC/Rev to build standalones, that will be distributed to others? I don't create much for my own use. 99% of everything I do, is for distribution, to produce income. The rest of you? The same, there. -- Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores Inspection académique de Seine-Saint-Denis Serveurs d'applications et SGBDR (Web/PGI) Penser et produire l'avantage compétitif ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: An informal poll....
On 8/7/03 5:00 PM, Shari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, Subject: An informal poll Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] All of this talk about something working with a licensed Home stack versus as standalone make me wonder How many, who have purchased licenses, use MC/Rev to build standalones, that will be distributed to others? That was THE REASON I purchased. Instead of migrating from Hypercard to C/C++, I moved to MC. I don't create much for my own use. 99% of everything I do, is for distribution, to produce income. The rest of you? I use MetaCard in two ways - I use the darwin mc engine to do ALL of my CGI scripting at work (high school network, 2,300 users, 600 computers,) and I use MetaCard 2.5 as a swiss army knife to solve all kinds of problems... mostly rearranging data. I was looking at maybe doing some more shareware, but I lost my tech assistant to budget cuts so now I have zero free time. -- :) Richard MacLemale Network Administrator J. W. Mitchell High School ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: An informal poll....
How many, who have purchased licenses, use MC/Rev to build standalones, that will be distributed to others? I don't create much for my own use. 99% of everything I do, is for distribution, to produce income. The rest of you? I would say 80% to produce income, the rest is for my own use, mainly experimentation ideas testing, for future use in prof. projects eventually... But anyway, of all the standalones I produced for clients within the last 3 years, only 1% or 2% could have stand the 10 lines script limit. All the rest was way too complex... BTW I think one should extend the poll to Rev list... I'm wondering if the responses would be similar... JB ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: An informal poll....
On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 11:44 AM, Shari wrote: All of this talk about something working with a licensed Home stack versus as standalone make me wonder How many, who have purchased licenses, use MC/Rev to build standalones, that will be distributed to others? That was THE REASON I purchased. Instead of migrating from Hypercard to C/C++, I moved to MC. I don't create much for my own use. 99% of everything I do, is for distribution, to produce income. The rest of you? -- I have a pro license for commercial work. Everyone makes small tools to make their day go by better. I am in that category as well. Best regards, Mark Talluto http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
