Re: [meteorite-list] Congrats! You saw a water dump...
Hi Rob folks Didn't realise the launches were such a strain on the bladder long mat their pots overflow ;-0 col - Original Message - From: Matson, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:50 am Subject: [meteorite-list] Congrats! You saw a water dump... Hi Colin, ... nothing very meteoritic happening here in Qatar. Last night I had the privilige of seeing the ISS persued by the shuttle , as it crossed Abu Dhabi west to east, 7 hours from docking. The exhaust fron the motors was clearly visible by eye, fantastic by bins. The gas ( ice crystals ? ) was being blown in the shape of a mirrored c ( or an arabic 6 ) so that it appeared to overtake the shuttle. Based on your description, you saw a waste-water dump from the Shuttle. Lucky you! (I've never seen one myself). The water immediately turns to ice, and in short order should appear to speed ahead of the Shuttle due to its higher relative drag. I know that sounds contradictory, but what happens is that drag lowers the orbit of the ice particles relative to the Shuttle, and the lower in orbit you are the faster you go. Cheers, Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] classified nwa main mass
Hi there all. Mike blood got me interested in this. I am looking for 300 to 500 gram MAIN MASS of classified NWA material. I am loking to pay up to $200 for 1 large piece. No end cuts,no slices, only an individual. Who can help me? Money guaranteed right away for the holidays. steve arnold = Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 I. M. C. A. MEMBER #6728 The Midwest Meteorite Collector! Website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] (no subject)
Hi all. I sent an email from my old address, please ignore and send inquiries to this address. I'm sorry. steveSteve r. Arnold, Chicago, il, 60107 The midwest meteorite collector! I.M.C.A. member #6728 Website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.comDo you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
[meteorite-list] Martian Meteorites Made Easy
http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_803_1.asp Martian Meteorites Made Easy By J. Kelly Beatty Sky Telescope November 25, 2002 For two decades, planetary geologists have been painting their dynamicist colleagues into an ever-tighter corner. Several dozen meteorites with Marslike compositions argue that asteroidal impacts occasionally blast rocks off the Red Planet, and that some of these rocks eventually find their way to Earth. Yet dynamicists initially scoffed at the notion that chunks of Mars could ever be accelerated to escape velocity (5 kilometers per second) without having them shocked to smithereens. After much number crunching, however, impact modelers eventually deduced that it could be done - if the impact event were powerful enough to leave behind a crater at least 10 km across. The timing seemed plausible; the youngest Martian meteorites are volcanic basalts only 180 million years old, and collisions big enough to make 10-km craters occur on Mars about once every 200 million years on average. But such an impact should have left a sizable, fresh-looking scar on one of the planet's lava-covered plains, and nothing so obvious has turned up. Moreover, the evidence in hand suggests that at least six separate ejections have taken place. Fortunately, computer impact simulations now suggest that such big bangs aren't needed after all. In the November 7th edition of Science Express, three researchers conclude that collisions yielding craters only 3 km across are energetic enough to eject millions of small Martian rocks into interplanetary space. Collisions of this size should happen on Mars every 200,000 years or so, and consequently chunks of the Red Planet should be plunking down on Earth several times each year. James N. Head (Raytheon Missile Systems), who performed the computer modeling for his doctoral thesis at the University of Arizona, also managed to solve another Martian-meteorite quandary. Most of these stones crystallized within the last few hundred million years, yet roughly half of the Red Planet's surface is a good 4 billion years old. So why haven't more old Martians been found? The key, as Head and his colleagues explain, is that the meteorites must have originally been buried in the layer of regolith, or crushed rock, that covers the planet's exterior. Younger regions, like the lava plains, have relatively thin crush zones, but the most ancient terrains are covered to depths of hundreds of meters. Because the presence of a thick regolith reduces ejection speeds, only very energetic impacts can excavate material from these regions - and since big impacts are infrequent on Mars, ancient samples of Mars should reach Earth only rarely. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Key To Life On Mars May Be In Sudbury
http://canada.com/national/story.asp?id=%7B388AC70F-74E2-47BC-BEA5-710331CD1911%7D Key To Life On Mars May Be In Sudbury NASA is studying some of the most inhospitable places on Earth -- like the crater in Sudbury -- in a bid to understand the red planet, writes Joanne Laucius. Joanne Laucius The Ottawa Citizen November 26, 2002 NASA wants to know what the Sudbury crater has to tell scientists about life on Mars. Researchers from the U.S. space agency are probing the most inhospitable places on Earth in the hopes they will find clues about how lifeforms could survive another inhospitable place -- Mars. They are studying how lifeforms adapted to survive in the Siberian permafrost, the arid valleys of Antarctica and a dormant volcano in the Chilean Andes. And they're hoping that Canada's ancient Sudbury crater also has some secrets to reveal. There are hundreds of impact craters on Mars, created by asteroids and comets that struck the red planet millions or billions of years ago. By studying Sudbury's own impact crater, a team of six scientists, including Ottawa's Doreen Ames, are hoping they can learn how life might thrive after a planet gets smacked with a resounding extraterrestrial blow. The Sudbury crater was created 1.85 billion years ago, likely when a comet slammed into the Earth. That impact started a chain of events that would last for tens of thousands of years, said Ms. Ames, a geologist with Natural Resources Canada. The crater is 200 kilometres in diameter and about a kilometre deep. The impact exposed the rich veins of ore that make Sudbury famous. It also created hydrothermal systems much like those that still exist deep under the sea and near volcanoes. When an asteroid or comet hits the Earth, it melts rock and produces a red-hot sheet of lava. Over thousands of years, a muddy lake forms. Like a pot of boiling water, a hydrothermal system has heat coming from below -- the magma under the ground. The system also produces convection, pulling water down through the rocks and generating nutrients. It is a warm habitat -- even scalding. But some parts of the hydrothermal system would be cool enough to support primitive life forms such as bacteria. Scientists are searching for fossil evidence of bacteria in rock samples. If they find that evidence in the Sudbury crater, it would help point NASA in the right direction when it sends a robot rover to the surface of Mars. It's a good place to look for potential life, said Ms. Ames, who has been studying the Sudbury crater for about 10 years. Mars went through an early bombardment. There are hundreds if not thousands of craters on Mars. Some are larger than the ones on Earth. It is unlikely that hydrothermals provided the conditions for the genesis of life, said project leader Kevin Pope. We're not really looking for the origin of life, although some people have suggested that hydrothermals might have been candidates for that the happen, he said. Impacts may not have created life, but they did change it. Mass extinctions are associated with impacts, including the one that created Mexico's Chicxulub crater 65 million years ago and wiped out the dinosaurs. On the other hand, impacts may not have been a bad thing for microbes. There was primitive life on Earth long before the comet hit Sudbury. The impact may have affected its evolutionary path. You take a big right angle turn after an impact, said Ms. Ames. The Sudbury crater is one of the largest craters on Earth. It is also the best-preserved, although it has been eroded over millions of years, layers of sediment have been deposited on top of it and tectonic forces have moulded it like plasticine, distorting its original round shape until it now appears to be an oval with one flattened side. Still, the Sudbury crater is better exposed than Chicxulub, which is covered by other rocks. It is also better preserved than the Vredefort crater in South Africa, which is so badly eroded there's hardly anything left. Craters on Earth have been buried and distorted by tectonic activity. On Mars, the craters are still very clearly defined, said Mr. Pope. The project is only about a year-and-a-half old. But so far, scientists have been disappointed by what they've seen -- or not -- under the microscope. So far, they have found no fossil evidence of ancient bacteria. But researchers have to get a better idea of where to look, said Mr. Pope. First, you have to identify parts of the hydrothermal system that would be cool enough to have have life in them. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] A fine line
List: It's a fine line. Ok, no pun intended here on the description of the below offered meteorite. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=740832733 It appears that this person is presenting, what they believe is, a meteorite. The wording in their description seems to cover themselves if it's not. If sold, regardless of the amount, is this fraudulent if it turns out to be terrestrial in origin (note that the heading is South Texas Meteorite - 36+ kilograms )? Opinions? Russ K., NEMS www.meteorlab.com
[meteorite-list] Test Delete
Test Test Please excust the post, I am having a problem receiving email from the list today. Regards, Steven Drummond
Re: [meteorite-list] A fine line
Hi Russ and list, You know, I think that as long as one does not say outright that this thing is a meteorite it will always be Let the Buyer Beware on all goods offered on EBAY. The only time I have really seen EBAY step in is when local law enforcement spotted stolen golf clubs from a burglary which occured from a nearby upscale residence (actually the owner of the clubs saw them on Ebay. Ebay was very cooperative, After all Ebay would not want to be knowned as an online fence operation. Sometime ago I posed a question to Ebay regarding persons who knowingly sell questionable goods (specifically meteorites) or who may falsify it's provinance. And their reply was that experts in the field of meteoritics exposing fraudulent specimens might open the way to lawsuits and who can define what or who an expert is. A scientist? A dealer? A long time collector? Needless to say their pat answer was indeed maddening. I did however pose this follow-up question to EBAYWhat if I tried to sell a pair of shoes using this description: I inherited this pair of ruby red shoes from my grandmother who found them at a garage sale in Beverly Hills California, during the 1940's. The woman at the garage sale claimed to be a wardrobe assistant. On the box is written MGM Studios, and they are a size 7. The box looks to be from around the late 1930's, and written in pencil is: wofoz-pair # 5. I'm not an expert in this area of movie props Etc You get the idea. Obviously a fraud...but if an Movie Wardrobe expert complained, I'm sure they would have received the same canned answer from Ebay. By the way, I never got a reply back from the people of EBAY when I posed this scenario to them. Don't ask---don't tell? All I can say is the with regards to meteorites, it's best to continue to refer people to the IMCA Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval or dealers who may not belong to IMCA but have established themselve as reputable meteorite dealers over the long haul. Ebay may not come to your rescue. So again it's Buyer Beware. Best, Steven L. Sachs IMCA # 9210 http://www.geocities.com/gangwise/meteorite.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A fine line-an additional thought
Russ, One other thing came to mind, was that Ebay will go after sellers who claim that their auction is for a genuine name product. If for example someone offers a genuine Rolex watch, a Prada hangbag, Gucci Luggage, etc, it has to be the real thing. If the seller puts into their description: Gucci like, simulated Rolex, they're partially off the hook. I once read that the Prada company has gone after sellers of knock-off hand bags, in Copywrite Infringement lawsuits. Ebay has been cooperative in that respect. Unfortunately, Meteorite is not a brand name. Best, Steve Sachs __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A fine line-an additional thought
Steve / List: Thanks for the response. What caught my interest and concern was the definitive / declarative heading: South Texas Meteorite - 36+ kilograms in combination with the disclaimer in the description. This may be a foundational statement that will now show up with other specimens being offered and if so, we're walking that fine line. I've watched the ongoing list discussions about different pseudos being offered. There doesn't seem to be a suitable answer for all (meaning the List-collective and the Ebay seller). Those well-grounded in the meteoritical sciences know that it either is or is not a meteorite. I don't think that one can have both as is presented in the above listed Ebay offering but maybe this is the closest or best case that we'll see. Russ K. New England Meteoritical www.meteorlab.com At 08:09 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, you wrote: Russ, One other thing came to mind, was that Ebay will go after sellers who claim that their auction is for a genuine name product. If for example someone offers a genuine Rolex watch, a Prada hangbag, Gucci Luggage, etc, it has to be the real thing. If the seller puts into their description: Gucci like, simulated Rolex, they're partially off the hook. I once read that the Prada company has gone after sellers of knock-off hand bags, in Copywrite Infringement lawsuits. Ebay has been cooperative in that respect. Unfortunately, Meteorite is not a brand name. Best, Steve Sachs
Re: [meteorite-list] shock help?
Hi Tom and list Well, your sure digging correctly. Actually, terrestrial rock can show minute fractures and crack from a variety of things such as, but not limited to: earthquake, volcanic eruption and weathering. Now whats interesting about weathering is that it take a wide variety of forms. Quite often, shocked quartz grains are found in volcanicly derived green sand layers and are a result of the eruption itself. The simplest forms we see are the wind scoured rocks like sandstone or water worn pebbles (which is actually a tumbling grinding effect and not so much to do with water doing the grinding away, but the tumbling on rocks against themselves). Less realized are the freeze-thaw effects which can most easily be seen on exposed plutonic rock such as seen in Yosemite in Ca. or Stone Mountain in Ga. which causes the rock to break apart and almost looks like orange peels till it slides down into a talus slope of rubble. Freeze-thaw also causes most of the falling rock around the continent for which the dot puts up the watch for falling rock signs. And basicly, what happens here is that moisture gets into minute crevices of the rock and when it freezes, it expands, then it thaws in the spring and is repeted till the chunk of rock gives way to gravity and heads toward the road. Now, about these minute crevices. They can be from a few things, one of which is acid rain. Not something only invented by 20th century man, it has been around as long as rain has and happens every time there is any volcanic activity which places acids into the atmosphere. This acid rain accounts for a lot of long term weathering and will attack the carbonates first which is often the cementing agent in sedimentary rock. It also attacks the silica cements in many types of rock, just not seds, but metamorphic and volcanic rock too. Water too can disolve as its a polar solvent. So, to finally answer your initial question, fractures are found in terrestrial rock all the time and in order to determine if its from shock or weathering, one needs to look at the frains of the rock itself, not the cracks, for a shock fracture of any kind, be it terrestrial or extra-terrestrial, will not just go around the grains (crystals ), but will go through them if thats the easiest path to relieving the stress of shock. Mark - Original Message - From: Tom / james Knudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] shock help? Hello List, pardon me for picking your brains! I have a meteorite hopefull that if you look at it with a loop at an angle in good light you can see that the stuff that makes up the mass of the rock has small cracks ( only visible with a loop) all through it. Every thing looks like it has been shattered. Now then, Is this shock? Do or can terrestrial rocks have these tiny cracks all through them? Thanks, Tom The proudest member of the I.M.C.A. #6168 _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] OT: Possible rocket booster reentry early tomorrow morning
Hi All, Since there are a number of list members who live in Arizona, I thought I'd report that there is a very slight chance that the ASTRA 1K Blok DM3 upper stage will decay on an ascending pass across the United States late tonite/early tomorrow morning. If you happen to live in the Phoenix area, the decay (if it occurs) would happen a little after 1:40am Mountain Time (UTC - 7 hours). The ground track of the booster actually passes just a little to the northwest of Phoenix as it moves from southwest to northeast. From an observer's viewpoint in Phoenix, the predicted track would cut between Perseus and Cassiopeia in the northwest, moving very rapidly left to right. Other states that this pass flies over are Colorado (pretty much corner to corner), Nebraska, the southeast corner of South Dakota, southern Minnesota, and northern Wisconsin. At orbital velocity, it takes only about 6 minutes for the booster to fly from southwest Arizona all the way to Lake Superior. Of course, if the reentry does not occur on this pass, then you will see nothing since the rocket body will not be sunlit. But if it DOES occur, you will witness something far more rare than a bright bolide! Best, Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] shock help?
Hi Tom Well, I did learn a little in school (and am looking for work) and try to pass it on as I can. There are the other more fundamental checks you can do like magnetism and metal detector testing (of course, these will only work with some metal present). If you have a rock saw (you can almost always find a rock or mineral club in any town larger than one stop light and they are always willing to help determine a rocks identity), you can slice it and look for more tell-tale signs like chondrules and metal flecks and breciation. Mark - Original Message - From: Tom / james Knudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] shock help? Wow, That was quite an explaination! I am going to keep that one. I don't know if it will help me figure out if this rock is a meteorite or not, it is so confusing to try to know if it is a meteorite or not! Thanks, Tom The proudest member of the I.M.C.A. #6168 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tom / james Knudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] shock help? Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:21:50 -0800 Hi Tom and list Well, your sure digging correctly. Actually, terrestrial rock can show minute fractures and crack from a variety of things such as, but not limited to: earthquake, volcanic eruption and weathering. Now whats interesting about weathering is that it take a wide variety of forms. Quite often, shocked quartz grains are found in volcanicly derived green sand layers and are a result of the eruption itself. The simplest forms we see are the wind scoured rocks like sandstone or water worn pebbles (which is actually a tumbling grinding effect and not so much to do with water doing the grinding away, but the tumbling on rocks against themselves). Less realized are the freeze-thaw effects which can most easily be seen on exposed plutonic rock such as seen in Yosemite in Ca. or Stone Mountain in Ga. which causes the rock to break apart and almost looks like orange peels till it slides down into a talus slope of rubble. Freeze-thaw also causes most of the falling rock around the continent for which the dot puts up the watch for falling rock signs. And basicly, what happens here is that moisture gets into minute crevices of the rock and when it freezes, it expands, then it thaws in the spring and is repeted till the chunk of rock gives way to gravity and heads toward the road. Now, about these minute crevices. They can be from a few things, one of which is acid rain. Not something only invented by 20th century man, it has been around as long as rain has and happens every time there is any volcanic activity which places acids into the atmosphere. This acid rain accounts for a lot of long term weathering and will attack the carbonates first which is often the cementing agent in sedimentary rock. It also attacks the silica cements in many types of rock, just not seds, but metamorphic and volcanic rock too. Water too can disolve as its a polar solvent. So, to finally answer your initial question, fractures are found in terrestrial rock all the time and in order to determine if its from shock or weathering, one needs to look at the frains of the rock itself, not the cracks, for a shock fracture of any kind, be it terrestrial or extra-terrestrial, will not just go around the grains (crystals ), but will go through them if thats the easiest path to relieving the stress of shock. Mark - Original Message - From: Tom / james Knudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] shock help? Hello List, pardon me for picking your brains! I have a meteorite hopefull that if you look at it with a loop at an angle in good light you can see that the stuff that makes up the mass of the rock has small cracks only visible with a loop) all through it. Every thing looks like it has been shattered. Now then, Is this shock? Do or can terrestrial rocks have these tiny cracks all through them? Thanks, Tom The proudest member of the I.M.C.A. #6168 _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[meteorite-list] Meteorite dispute prompts complaint
Greetings, Although it happened a few months ago, this is interesting: Meteorite dispute prompts complaint Talk about a set-up, poor Dr. Nestell didn't see it coming... My favorite: 'This guy sounds like a real nut case. Ill bet hes one of those guys whos out to make a lot of problems for other people, Nestell said' The funniest: "DeRusse alleges that during the process, geology professor Merlynd Nestell handled samples and questioned their authenticity. DeRusse said the technicians assisting him were embarrassed and puzzled by the professors behavior. " Amazed by it all, Ken
