[meteorite-list] Shawnee tradition, hermeneutic condition
The Shawnee and others are the ONLY sources of Pleistocene cultural information, possibly preserved in accounts of the cosmogony of late-coming Paleoindian populations (as also can be expected of the mythopoesis of indigenous Northern Asian populations, e.g. early Jomon Proto-Ainu people(~16,000 BP - ~2,450 BP), certainly surviving relatively intact through the cold snap of the Younger Dryas, although not necessarily witnessing an impact - unless by hemispheric diffuse supernova ejecta), that a study, constrained entirely to an output of speculative-associative quasi-syntheses with all caveats understood, can draw from. Unverifiability is not itself completely at odds with scientific practice, and correspondence of paleoclimatological reconstructions, geological evidence, and archaeological evidence can parallel mythos and, to a minimal degree, offer a possible translation of metaphorical-allegorical narrative. Thus, scholars with the aspirations of an E.P. Grondine are limited to a view of their subject from distances beyond mere time (semantic indeterminability/incommensurability apply - a transmission from crystallized indigenous accounts, to eurocentric 19th c. ethnographers to E.P.G.). Archaeolgy is much easier, but certainly mute. Just don't call Hibben a rigorous and ethical scientist. We must, to arrive at the closest degee of recorded experience, decolonialize our view of vanquished non-european cultural traditions, but what we have left (Eurocentric ethnographies)is the best that we have left. What do the current Shawnee think of the works of white ethnographers? One last thing - I found this article at the PNAS site, although another list member may have beat me to it: Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0706977104v1.pdf [full-color images, graphs, etc. in PDF format] --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk wrote: List and Ed, Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question. E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:... Do you really want to stand by such a display of a lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to reconsider that statement? - Yes, I stand by my statements of fact. They were no statements of fact, Dirk. You made assertions concerning Native American traditions which were both factually incorrect, as well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the field of anthropology. You compared millenium old traditions with a 175 year old forgery. And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are indeed your belief, thus not science. And how did you get that? My facts are one thing, my beliefs another. I gave the allegories of several Native American religions in Man and Impact in the Americas, as well as giving their oral histories there - and mainly I gave their histories. Those are facts about those peoples in and of themselves. By the way, the Maya had written writing, and made contemporaneous records of events. What I believe is something else. I think that there are Christians who are scientists, Jews who are scientists, Moslems who are scientists, Budhists who are scientists. Can't one hold a Native American belief system and be a scientist? Or can science only practiced by atheists and English Deists? Or perhaps history and anthropology are not sciences? Belief posed as fact or science is poor scholarship, as your book and excerpts clearly display. So is misrepresenting someone else's work, and misrepresenting their use of materials. Also, lack of any primary research (nothing remotely demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact) Except for the sudden population losses and cultural discontinuities... But then displays of physical evidence are often invisible to some people. So watch the National Geographic Channel program on TV. As a final point, the day after my final warning to Darryl on Williamette, I ran into a gentleman whose uncle had bulldozed a mound. Three days later he was found dead of heart attack drooped over a toilet into which he had been vomiting stuff that looked like s***. While that's a fact, it is only my belief that no good will come to Darryl or anyone from dealing Williamette - if he or anyone else wants to join the dataset, go on ahead. Beyond this warning, like the others, I will simply look on in dismay. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting __ Meteorite-list mailing list
[meteorite-list] Free meteorite references, from Radiocarbon
List, a search using the keyword meteorites at the ASU website for the journal Radiocarbon yielded 54 full-text PDF files, while the keyword meteorite yielded 67 articles. All are in the free archives of the journal, complete from 1959-2004. I haven't had time to referee any (as if I am qualified), but I imagine nobody will blame me. The main page is at http://radiocarbon.library.arizona.edu/radiocarbon/index.jsp. Click search. Enter what you will. -Thaddeus Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the Day - October 9, 2007
http://www.spacerocksinc.com/October_9_2007.html == ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hello Sterling, Thank you for letting me know your translation of the Bolivian publications, which is very interesting. Just before, I visited http://spaceweather.com/, where another latest infrasound analysis of the Peruvian event by Peter Brown (Univ. W. Ontario) is introduced. His team estimated the kinetic energy of the impactor about 0.03 kton TNT. Best wishes, Kastu - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Rob Matson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, I downloaded all the publications on the site (URL below) and started translating then, but... One is the earlier analysis which I already translated and posted a week ago. The two PowerPoint presentations are general presentations of craters (very nicely done, BTW -- muy bueno!) but don't mention Carancas. One is a press-release style .pdf that describes the event and spends a lot of time explaining what a meteorite is, that they come from the asteroids, that there are craters elsewhere on the planet, that the world is not ending, the usual... There are a few more .pdf are press releases. The only document with any specifics is their physical estimates of the impact and such, all taken from playing with the LPI online Impact Calculator; I recognize the language! Like I haven't already done that 300 times this last week (and you too). And if you're keeping score, the Bolivians (unlike the Peruvians) got the Universal Time of the event right. Sterling K. Webb -- -- - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:37 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event Hello list members, I have just reached the Carancas' publication list site in Peru: http://fcpn.umsa.bo/fcpn/app?service=page/Planetarium_PublicationList where some articles have already been introduced by some list members, but the rest ones are not introduced yet and seem indeed interesting, although I cannot understand Spanish at all. Does anyone translate and introduce their summary? Best wishes, Katsu OHTSUKA Tokyo, JAPAN __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Very Important Day For Meteorites
Folks, Yesterday was a very big day for meteorites. No, it was not a scientific breakthrough or an enthralling report of a new recovery an intrepid meteorite hunter. The event was far more banal---but the implications of its impact will be far-reaching in years to come. The waves of media associated with the first natural history auctions in the mid 90s catalyzed an interest in meteorites---in particular--- and yesterday there was a most significant wave: for the first time ever was a full page advertisement in The New York Times to promote the first major auction devoted to meteorites. As The New York Times is one of three papers of record in this country, there is not one serious newsroom anywhere that has not seen this, and the result will provide a boon of support to everyone associated with meteorites, irrespective of your niche or professional background. A big day indeedand provided for by Bonhams International Auctioneers. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] photographing irons
Gorgeous! What's your technique? Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Laurence Garvie [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:39 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] photographing irons some my examples http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php/1233977_WabarMin.jpg.html http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8708/udeistation4mingh3.jpg Matteo - Original Message - Da : Laurence Garvie [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Oggetto : [meteorite-list] photographing irons Data : Mon, 8 Oct 2007 22:26:47 -0700 Regarding photographing irons - I have had good success scanning them on a flatbed scanner. I typically use 1200 dpi and color. Note, this can produce a large file. I'll try and send a link to an image tomorrow. Laurence CMS ASU Message: 5 Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:38:56 -0400 From: David Kitt Deyarmin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [meteorite-list] Questions about Uruacu - Shiny Black Inclusions /Images / Etching To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original I am processing some Uruacu and some of the pieces have huge shiny black inclusions that almost have a mirror like reflective surface. Does anyone know what these are, you can see a lot of them in this 354 gram slice: http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Uruacu/ 354grSlice1.jpg -- -- Does anyone have any tips on photographing this material. It doesn't have a lot of contrast but the etch looks 1000% better then what this image shows: http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Uruacu/ 354grSlice2.jpg I have tried shooting it from various angles, with and with out flash, inside, outside, nothing seems to really capture the look of the etch -- -- Speaking of the etch, does anyone have any ideas on how to get more contrast, I have tried a variety of Nitric Acid and Ferric Chloride Solutions and I have even tried various combination of both. If anyone can offer any help it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks -- __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Free meteorite references, from Radiocarbon
List, a search using the keyword meteorites at the ASU website for the journal Radiocarbon yielded 54 full-text PDF files, while the keyword meteorite yielded 67 articles. All are in the free archives of the journal, complete from 1959-2004. I haven't had time to referee any (as if I am qualified), but I imagine nobody will blame me. The main page is at http://radiocarbon.library.arizona.edu/radiocarbon/index.jsp. Click search. Enter what you will. -Thaddeus keyword meteorites: An extraction system to measure carbon-14 terrestrial ages of meteorites with a Tandetron AMS at Nagoya University. Author: Minami, Masayo; Nakamura, Toshio; Volume: 43 Issue: 2a In-situ AMS determination Re-Os isochron in IIA iron meteorites. Author: Ding, Gang Jian; Kilius, Linus R; Wilson, Graham C; Zhao, Xiao Lei; Rucklidge, John C; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 Precious metal abundances in selected iron meteorites; in-situ AMS measurements of the six platinum-group elements plus gold. Author: Wilson, Graham C; Rucklidge, John C; Kilius, Linas R; Ding, Gang Jian; Cresswell, Richard G; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 Spallogenic (super 14) C in high-altitude rocks and in Antarctic meteorites. Author: Jull, A J Timothy; Donahue, Douglas J; Linick, T W; Wilson, G C; Volume: 31 Issue: 3 Evidence of anomalous (super 107) Ag and (super 109) Ag composition in iron meteorites. Author: Ding, Gang Jian; Kilius, Linus R; Wilson, Graham C; Zhao, Xiao Lei; Rucklidge, John C; Litherland, A E; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 Cosmogenic radionuclide contents of Antarctic meteorites from Allan Hills having high natural thermoluminescence. Author: Mokos, J; Vogt, Stephan; Lipschutz, M E; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 Cosmogenic-radionuclide profile of the Mocs Meteorite strewnfield. Author: Ferko, T E; Lipschutz, M E; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 New interpretation of the (super 10) Be and (super 26) Al content in cosmic spherules. Author: Zoppi, U; Matsuzaki, H; Kobayashi, K; Imamura, M; Nagai, H; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 Recent (super 14) C measurements with the Chalk River FN tandem accelerator. Author: Brown, R M; Andrews, H R; Ball, G C; Burn, N; Davies, W G; Imahori, Y; Milton, J C D; Workman, W; Volume: 25 Issue: 2 Instituto Venezolano de investigaciones Cientificas natural radiocarbon measurements VI. Author: Tamers, M A; Volume: 13 Issue: 1 On cosmic-ray exposure ages of terrestrial rocks; a suggestion. Author: Lal, Devendra; Volume: 37 Issue: 3 Radiocarbon Beyond This World Author: Jull, A. J. Timothy; Lal, Devendra; Burr, George S.; Bland, Philip A.; Bevan, Alexander W.R.; Beck, J. Warren; Volume: 42 Issue: 1 A minivial for small sample (super 14) C dating. Author: Kaihola, Lauri; Kojola, Hannu; Heinonen, Aarne; Volume: 33 Issue: 2 Comparison of dates for young basalts from the (super 40) Ar/ (super 39) Ar and cosmogenic helium techniques. Author: Poths, J; Anthony, E Y; Williams, W J; Heizler, M; McIntosh, W C; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 Surface (super 129) iodine/ (super 127) iodine ratios; marine vs. terrestrial. Author: Moran, Jean E; Santschi, Peter; Schink, David R; Oktay, Sarah; Fehn, Udo; Rao, Usha; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 A new interpretation of the distribution of bomb-produced chlorine-36 in the environment, with special reference to the Laurentian Great Lakes. Author: Milton, J C D; Milton, G M; Andrews, H R; Chant, L A; Cornett, R J J; Davies, W G; Greiner, B F; Imahori, Y; Koslowsky, V T; Kramer, S J; McKay, J W; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 Constraining the initiation and evolution of anoxia in the Black Sea by AMS radiocarbon dating. Author: Jones, Glenn A; Volume: 33 Issue: 2 Proposed studies of (super 14) CO and (super 10) Be in polar ice to delineate cosmic ray flux changes in the past 40,000 years. Author: Lal, Devendra; Jull, A J T; Volume: 33 Issue: 2 AMS of (super 41) Ca using the CaF (sub 3) negative ion. Author: Kubick, Peter W; Elmore, David; Volume: 31 Issue: 3 Accelerator mass spectrometry with fully stripped (super 36) Cl ions. Author: Haberstock, Guenther; Heinzl, Johann; Korschinek, Gunther; Morinaga, Haruhiko; Nolte, Eckehart; Ratzinger, Ulrich; Kato, Kazuo; Wolf, Manfred; Volume: 28 Issue: 2a Cosmogenic in-situ (super 14) C in polar firn and ice samples. Author: Lal, Devendra; Jull, A J T; Donahue, D J; Volume: 33 Issue: 2 Application of (super 36) Cl surface exposure age dating to central Andean volcanology and glaciology. Author: Sharma, Pankaj; de, Silva Shanaka L; Elmore, David; Vogt, Stephan; Dunne, Adam; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 First (super 14) C observations in waters of the Great Australian Bight. Author: Ribbe, J; Bye, J T; Tomczak, M; Jacobsen, G E; Lawson, E M; Smith, A M; Fink, D; Hotchkis, M A C; Tuniz, C; Volume: 38 Issue: 1 Half-life of (super 41) Ca. Author: Kutschera, Walter; Ahmad, Irshad; Paul, Michael;
[meteorite-list] Happy 15th, Peekskill
Just 3 years till legal! Oh, wait... http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/web/20071009-peekskill-meteorite-astronomy-chevy-malibu.shtml Posted Tuesday October 9, 2007 07:00 AM EDT The Thing From Space That Destroyed the Car By John Steele Gordon Luckily for astronomers, it was a Friday night in the autumn. That meant that hundreds of thousands of people were at high school football games, many with camcorders at the ready to preserve any gridiron heroics. What they preserved as well, from at least 16 different locations from Kentucky to New York, was the path of a fireball across the sky as it streaked northeastward at better than ten miles a second. (See videos they shot here.) As earths atmosphere tightened its grip, the yard-wide meteor, which weighed several tons and shone brighter than the full moon, broke up into at least 70 pieces. The only piece ever found weighed about 28 pounds. It announced its arrival on planet Earth by crashing through the back of a car parked in Peekskill, New York, on the night of October 9, 1992, 15 years ago today. The owner of the car, a red 1980 Chevy Malibu, was 17-year-old Michelle Knapp. She went outside with a friend to investigate the noise, and when they saw the damage to the car, they looked beneath it and discovered the meteorite, nestled in a small crater it had made in the driveway. It was still warm from its passage through the atmosphere. Knapp called the police, who inspected the car and filed a report of criminal mischief. (Given the extensive damage to the car (see photos here), the criminal class in Peekskill must have been very well-armed indeed for mischief to have been a plausible explanation.) The persistent smell of gasoline from the ruptured fuel tank brought the fire department as well. Thanks to the many videos available, astronomers were able to calculate the angle at which the meteoroid had hit the earths atmosphere: 3.4 degrees. Had it been much shallower, it would have skimmed through the atmosphere and escaped back into space. (When in space, such an object is a meteoroid. When it enters the atmosphere and is incandescent, it becomes a meteor. If it explodes or disintegrates in the atmosphere, it is termed a fireball or bolide. After the pieces land, they are called meteorites.) Astronomers were even able to determine the path that the meteoroid had taken around the sun. For millions of years it had traveled as close as 80 million miles from the sun, inside the earths orbit, and had reached out as far as nearly 200 million miles, well beyond Mars. It had taken 1.8 earth years to complete an orbit. In the early days of the solar system, four billion and more years ago, the earth was frequently bombarded with meteorites, many of them huge. The moon was almost certainly formed by a collision between the proto-Earth and a Mars-size object at that time. Even today, in the sedate middle age of the solar system, earths considerable gravitational field sweeps up a lot of space junk as the planet orbits the sun. Every day the earth adds many tons to its mass this way. Most of it is in the form of dust, which simply slows up in the atmosphere without incandescing. But so-called shooting stars, which are about the size of grains of sand, can be seen on any clear night by the dozens from any spot on earth, if you have the patience to wait for them. During meteor showers, such as the Perseids in August and the Leonids in November, when the earth passes through the debris left in the orbits of comets, they can often be seen at a rate of more than one a minute, all seeming to come from the same point in the sky, called the radiant. Very rarely, a meteor storm is encountered, and shooting stars can be seen by the thousands, such as on the night of November 12 to 13, 1833, when at least a quarter of a million shooting stars were seen over North America. Much rarer, fortunately, are the larger hunks of space debris that are too big to be vaporized in the upper atmosphere. These meteor falls are still surprisingly common, however. One landed in a field in Yorkshire, England, in 1795 and narrowly missed a worker. It settled the long-standing argument about whether stones really do fall from the sky. In this country, a woman napping on her couch in her home in Sylacauga, Alabama, was struck by a meteorite on November 30, 1954, when it crashed through her roof, bounced off a radio, and hit her on the leg (see AmericanHeritage.com article here). Houses in Wethersfield, Connecticut, were struck by meteorites only 11 years apart, in 1971 and 1982. Larger meteors pose graver, but exponentially rarer, dangers. The meteor that produced the Barringer Crater in northern Arizona about 50,000 years ago was roughly 50 yards wide and released about 2.5 megatons of energy to produce a crater nearly a mile wide and 570 feet deep. Such a meteor strikes the earth every thousand years or so. The Tunguska event, in 1908, was probably
Re: [meteorite-list] Shawnee tradition, hermeneutic condition
That first sentence (if it is, in fact, a sentence) is definitely the longest (albeit obfuscatory) I've read all month. Hohohoba Thaddeus Besedin wrote: The Shawnee and others are the ONLY sources of Pleistocene cultural information, possibly preserved in accounts of the cosmogony of late-coming Paleoindian populations (as also can be expected of the mythopoesis of indigenous Northern Asian populations, e.g. early Jomon Proto-Ainu people(~16,000 BP - ~2,450 BP), certainly surviving relatively intact through the cold snap of the Younger Dryas, although not necessarily witnessing an impact - unless by hemispheric diffuse supernova ejecta), that a study, constrained entirely to an output of speculative-associative quasi-syntheses with all caveats understood, can draw from. Unverifiability is not itself completely at odds with scientific practice, and correspondence of paleoclimatological reconstructions, geological evidence, and archaeological evidence can parallel mythos and, to a minimal degree, offer a possible translation of metaphorical-allegorical narrative. Thus, scholars with the aspirations of an E.P. Grondine are limited to a view of their subject from distances beyond mere time (semantic indeterminability/incommensurability apply - a transmission from crystallized indigenous accounts, to eurocentric 19th c. ethnographers to E.P.G.). Archaeolgy is much easier, but certainly mute. Just don't call Hibben a rigorous and ethical scientist. We must, to arrive at the closest degee of recorded experience, decolonialize our view of vanquished non-european cultural traditions, but what we have left (Eurocentric ethnographies)is the best that we have left. What do the current Shawnee think of the works of white ethnographers? One last thing - I found this article at the PNAS site, although another list member may have beat me to it: Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0706977104v1.pdf [full-color images, graphs, etc. in PDF format] --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk wrote: List and Ed, Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question. E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:... Do you really want to stand by such a display of a lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to reconsider that statement? - Yes, I stand by my statements of fact. They were no statements of fact, Dirk. You made assertions concerning Native American traditions which were both factually incorrect, as well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the field of anthropology. You compared millenium old traditions with a 175 year old forgery. And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are indeed your belief, thus not science. And how did you get that? My facts are one thing, my beliefs another. I gave the allegories of several Native American religions in Man and Impact in the Americas, as well as giving their oral histories there - and mainly I gave their histories. Those are facts about those peoples in and of themselves. By the way, the Maya had written writing, and made contemporaneous records of events. What I believe is something else. I think that there are Christians who are scientists, Jews who are scientists, Moslems who are scientists, Budhists who are scientists. Can't one hold a Native American belief system and be a scientist? Or can science only practiced by atheists and English Deists? Or perhaps history and anthropology are not sciences? Belief posed as fact or science is poor scholarship, as your book and excerpts clearly display. So is misrepresenting someone else's work, and misrepresenting their use of materials. Also, lack of any primary research (nothing remotely demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact) Except for the sudden population losses and cultural discontinuities... But then displays of physical evidence are often invisible to some people. So watch the National Geographic Channel program on TV. As a final point, the day after my final warning to Darryl on Williamette, I ran into a gentleman whose uncle had bulldozed a mound. Three days later he was found dead of heart attack drooped over a toilet into which he had been vomiting stuff that looked like s***. While that's a fact, it is only my belief that no good will come to Darryl or anyone from dealing Williamette - if he or anyone else wants to join the dataset, go on ahead. Beyond this warning, like the others, I will simply look on in dismay. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the
[meteorite-list] Shawnee Tradition
Hi Thaddeus - Yeah. It's like I've been trying to tell you for some time - there was a massive impact event at the start of the Holocene. The only question left now is was it coincidental to the Holocene start, or was it causative. I go with causitive, by modifying the North Pacific Current. Now as for the apparat that allowed me to identify and accurately work with 13,000 year old materials, in other words the techniques and methods I used, its really quite easy: 1) recover and check the translations of accounts of impacts 2) observe cultural discontinuities 3) Rigourously match 1 and 2. Then: 4) Take a whole lot of crap from petty scientist and his associates who think that only comets hit the Earth 5) Take a whole lot of crap from Mars nuts who think that they own the NASA budget and that the US has nothing better to do than spend a hundred billion dollars flying a few men to Mars 6) Take a whole of crap from American spiritualists who believe in pole shifts 7) Take a whole load of crap from cosmology astronomers who think that NASA's astronomy budget is all theirs 8) Finance the whole thing out of my own pocket so that the work gets done. 9) Work until I have a stroke 10) Take more crap from various half wits with axes to grind Hibbens was an honorable man, and I think that other holocene start fossil deposits are likely to be found in Alaska. My guess is that a re-working of his spoil pits is likely to demonstrate Sandia. PS - I recovered a tradition of the Ainu destruction by impact prior to the Japanese people coming into the islands and circulated it some years ago to the Cambridge Conference. This was not the Holocene start impact. See points 1,2,3 above. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Message: 4 Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 01:37:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Thaddeus Besedin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [meteorite-list] Shawnee tradition, hermeneutic condition To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 The Shawnee and others are the ONLY sources of Pleistocene cultural information, possibly preserved in accounts of the cosmogony of late-coming Paleoindian populations (as also can be expected of the mythopoesis of indigenous Northern Asian populations, e.g. early Jomon Proto-Ainu people(~16,000 BP - ~2,450 BP), certainly surviving relatively intact through the cold snap of the Younger Dryas, although not necessarily witnessing an impact - unless by hemispheric diffuse supernova ejecta), that a study, constrained entirely to an output of speculative-associative quasi-syntheses with all caveats understood, can draw from. Unverifiability is not itself completely at odds with scientific practice, and correspondence of paleoclimatological reconstructions, geological evidence, and archaeological evidence can parallel mythos and, to a minimal degree, offer a possible translation of metaphorical-allegorical narrative. Thus, scholars with the aspirations of an E.P. Grondine are limited to a view of their subject from distances beyond mere time (semantic indeterminability/incommensurability apply - a transmission from crystallized indigenous accounts, to eurocentric 19th c. ethnographers to E.P.G.). Archaeolgy is much easier, but certainly mute. Just don't call Hibben a rigorous and ethical scientist. We must, to arrive at the closest degee of recorded experience, decolonialize our view of vanquished non-european cultural traditions, but what we have left (Eurocentric ethnographies)is the best that we have left. What do the current Shawnee think of the works of white ethnographers? One last thing - I found this article at the PNAS site, although another list member may have beat me to it: Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0706977104v1.pdf [full-color images, graphs, etc. in PDF format] --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk wrote: List and Ed, Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question. E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:... Do you really want to stand by such a display of a lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to reconsider that statement? - Yes, I stand by my statements of fact. They were no statements of fact, Dirk. You made assertions concerning Native American traditions which were both factually incorrect, as well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the field of anthropology. You compared millenium old traditions with a 175 year old forgery. And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are indeed your belief, thus not science. And how did you get that? My facts are one thing, my
Re: [meteorite-list] Very Important Day For Meteorites
Hi, Darryl, List, It will be interesting to see if a frenzy occurs! If anyone wants a look at the American auction site: http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=USAscreen=index http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=USAscreen=index and the meteorite catalogue itself: http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EURscreen=catalogueiSaleNo=15648 http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EURscreen=catalogueiSaleNo=15648 Decent close-ups can be viewed by using the flash version of the photos. Cheers, Pete To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:27:39 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Very Important Day For Meteorites Folks, Yesterday was a very big day for meteorites. No, it was not a scientific breakthrough or an enthralling report of a new recovery an intrepid meteorite hunter. The event was far more banal---but the implications of its impact will be far-reaching in years to come. The waves of media associated with the first natural history auctions in the mid 90s catalyzed an interest in meteorites---in particular--- and yesterday there was a most significant wave: for the first time ever was a full page advertisement in The New York Times to promote the first major auction devoted to meteorites. As The New York Times is one of three papers of record in this country, there is not one serious newsroom anywhere that has not seen this, and the result will provide a boon of support to everyone associated with meteorites, irrespective of your niche or professional background. A big day indeedand provided for by Bonhams International Auctioneers. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Send a smile, make someone laugh, have some fun! Start now! http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] 15th Anniversary of the Peekskill Meteorite Fall
On October 9, 1992, thousands of people along the Eastern coast of the United States witnessed a bright fireball and heard sonic booms as the fireball passed through the Earth's atmosphere. A 27.3 pound (12.4 kg) meteorite fell in Peekskill, New York, and struck a 1980 Chevy Malibu sitting in its driveway. The meteorite penetrated all the way through the trunk of the car. Analysis of the fireball's flight path led to the determination of the object's orbit around the Sun prior to its impact on Earth, which not surprisingly showed it has originated from the main asteroid belt. Closer examination of the video also showed the bright fireball had broken up into about 60 pieces, but the fragment that hit the car was the only one ever recovered. The owner of the car, Michelle Knapp, sold the car and the meteorite to meteorite dealers. I obtained a piece of the Peekskill meteorite just a few weeks after it had fallen, and my piece has red paint from the car on the fusion crust. Ron Baalke --- For JPL internal use only. http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/web/20071009-peekskill-meteorite-astronomy-chevy-malib The Thing From Space That Destroyed the Car By John Steele Gordon AmericanHeritage.com October 9, 2007 Luckily for astronomers, it was a Friday night in the autumn. That meant that hundreds of thousands of people were at high school football games, many with camcorders at the ready to preserve any gridiron heroics. What they preserved as well, from at least 16 different locations from Kentucky to New York, was the path of a fireball across the sky as it streaked northeastward at better than ten miles a second. (See videos they shot here http://aquarid.physics.uwo.ca/~pbrown/Videos/peekskill.htm.) As earth's atmosphere tightened its grip, the yard-wide meteor, which weighed several tons and shone brighter than the full moon, broke up into at least 70 pieces. The only piece ever found weighed about 28 pounds. It announced its arrival on planet Earth by crashing through the back of a car parked in Peekskill, New York, on the night of October 9, 1992, 15 years ago today. The owner of the car, a red 1980 Chevy Malibu, was 17-year-old Michelle Knapp. She went outside with a friend to investigate the noise, and when they saw the damage to the car, they looked beneath it and discovered the meteorite, nestled in a small crater it had made in the driveway. It was still warm from its passage through the atmosphere. Knapp called the police, who inspected the car and filed a report of criminal mischief. (Given the extensive damage to the car (see photos here http://www.nyrockman.com/pages/peekskill-germany.htm), the criminal class in Peekskill must have been very well-armed indeed for mischief to have been a plausible explanation.) The persistent smell of gasoline from the ruptured fuel tank brought the fire department as well. Thanks to the many videos available, astronomers were able to calculate the angle at which the meteoroid had hit the earth's atmosphere: 3.4 degrees. Had it been much shallower, it would have skimmed through the atmosphere and escaped back into space. (When in space, such an object is a meteoroid. When it enters the atmosphere and is incandescent, it becomes a meteor. If it explodes or disintegrates in the atmosphere, it is termed a fireball or bolide. After the pieces land, they are called meteorites.) Astronomers were even able to determine the path that the meteoroid had taken around the sun. For millions of years it had traveled as close as 80 million miles from the sun, inside the earth's orbit, and had reached out as far as nearly 200 million miles, well beyond Mars. It had taken 1.8 earth years to complete an orbit. In the early days of the solar system, four billion and more years ago, the earth was frequently bombarded with meteorites, many of them huge. The moon was almost certainly formed by a collision between the proto-Earth and a Mars-size object at that time. Even today, in the sedate middle age of the solar system, earth's considerable gravitational field sweeps up a lot of space junk as the planet orbits the sun. Every day the earth adds many tons to its mass this way. Most of it is in the form of dust, which simply slows up in the atmosphere without incandescing. But so-called shooting stars, which are about the size of grains of sand, can be seen on any clear night by the dozens from any spot on earth, if you have the patience to wait for them. During meteor showers, such as the Perseids in August and the Leonids in November, when the earth passes through the debris left in the orbits of comets, they can often be seen at a rate of more than one a minute, all seeming to come from the same point in the sky, called the radiant. Very rarely, a meteor storm is encountered, and shooting stars can be seen by the thousands, such as on the night of November 12 to 13, 1833, when at least a quarter
[meteorite-list] FW: Inclusions Chondrules....
From: michael cottingham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:21 AM To: 'michael cottingham' Subject: AD: Inclusions Chondrules Hello, I have a light ebay week, but I do have some nice LL5, chondrule rich slices, also some inexpensive Howardite slices, and Chondrule rich SAU 001 slices and endcuts. worth a look just to see the chondrules.. Go to: http://stores.ebay.com/Voyage-Botanica-Natural-History_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfti dZ2QQsclZ2QQtZkm or http://stores.ebay.com/Voyage-Botanica-Natural-History Thanks and Best Wishes Michael Cottingham __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Carancas impact crater satellite imagery documentation--Dirk Ross...Tokyo 10OCT07
Again, Sorry for the mass listing to all in this communication; time is running out quickly; if you have received this and wish not to be involved please contact me privately. Dear Drs. and List, It has been suggested, in communication, by impact researcher, Dr. Jan Cannon, Planetary Data, OK, USA, that for satellite imagery and datasets that SPOT and Radarsat MAY be able to retrieve imagery data for the recent Carancas impact crater, Peru. Anyone able to influence NASA, SPOT and Radarsat and other groups including military to search and save image datasets for before and just after (or currently) the impact event please use your influence and please mail those groups. Please contact me off-list IF you have contacts or information. Thank you in advance for your kind help in documenting this rare event. If anyone has more suggestions, or comments, please also contact me privately. There are several download centers worldwide and I attempt to contact them. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo Field Researcher, Planetary Data, Tokyo SPOT website: http://www.spot.ucsb.edu/custom.php (seems to be outside of their orbit for normal tasking) Radarsat-1 Radarsat-2 website: http://www.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/radar/spaceborne/radarsat1/index_e.php Radarsat-2 website: http://www.radarsat2.info/ EROS website: http://edc.usgs.gov/products/satellite.html Message sent offlist to: dirk ross [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Josh Cahill [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles O Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Jeff Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Mario RebolledoVieyra [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Jason Hines [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Bill Deane [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Jan Cannon [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. John Spray [EMAIL PROTECTED] , Keith Milam [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Ted Brattstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Jose Machare [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Luisa Macedo [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. James Wittke [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Harold Connolley [EMAIL PROTECTED], __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Free meteorite references, Other Papers
Hi Thaddeus, Thanks for the link. I read what I could and even understood a little! I won't try to explain what I understood or you may realize I really understood nothing at all! Really cool source of info. Not starting a new thread, but just adding to this one. I was reading about the CO3 DaG 749 and came onto a paper written by Marc Fries and Andrew Steele. Marc is a list member and has shared some insightful observations with us. Most recently he provided an explanation of the color changes in the barred chondrule image by John Kashuba and shown in Mikes Meteorite Photo of the Day. This paper explains using the Raman Spectrometer to study meteorites and even Interplanetary Dust in a non destructive way. I have emailed Marc and he said the Raman could be used to speed up the classification of meteorites by providing a quick way to sort out such things as carbon (and more) in samples. The paper would be of interest to most list members. I couldn't make the link work. I used copy and paste and it seems #'s at the end of the address change. If you Google meteorite co3 dag 749 marc fries His paper is the first thing that comes up. Tom In a message dated 10/9/2007 3:03:57 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: List, a search using the keyword meteorites at the ASU website for the journal Radiocarbon yielded 54 full-text PDF files, while the keyword meteorite yielded 67 articles. All are in the free archives of the journal, complete from 1959-2004. I haven't had time to referee any (as if I am qualified), but I imagine nobody will blame me. The main page is at http://radiocarbon.library.arizona.edu/radiocarbon/index.jsp. Click search. Enter what you will. -Thaddeus ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Happy 15th, Peekskill
3 yrs. to legal, eh? i started @ 13. --- Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just 3 years till legal! Oh, wait... http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/web/20071009-peekskill-meteorite-astronomy-chevy-malibu.shtml Posted Tuesday October 9, 2007 07:00 AM EDT The Thing From Space That Destroyed the Car By John Steele Gordon Luckily for astronomers, it was a Friday night in the autumn. That meant that hundreds of thousands of people were at high school football games, many with camcorders at the ready to preserve any gridiron heroics. What they preserved as well, from at least 16 different locations from Kentucky to New York, was the path of a fireball across the sky as it streaked northeastward at better than ten miles a second. (See videos they shot here.) As earths atmosphere tightened its grip, the yard-wide meteor, which weighed several tons and shone brighter than the full moon, broke up into at least 70 pieces. The only piece ever found weighed about 28 pounds. It announced its arrival on planet Earth by crashing through the back of a car parked in Peekskill, New York, on the night of October 9, 1992, 15 years ago today. The owner of the car, a red 1980 Chevy Malibu, was 17-year-old Michelle Knapp. She went outside with a friend to investigate the noise, and when they saw the damage to the car, they looked beneath it and discovered the meteorite, nestled in a small crater it had made in the driveway. It was still warm from its passage through the atmosphere. Knapp called the police, who inspected the car and filed a report of criminal mischief. (Given the extensive damage to the car (see photos here), the criminal class in Peekskill must have been very well-armed indeed for mischief to have been a plausible explanation.) The persistent smell of gasoline from the ruptured fuel tank brought the fire department as well. Thanks to the many videos available, astronomers were able to calculate the angle at which the meteoroid had hit the earths atmosphere: 3.4 degrees. Had it been much shallower, it would have skimmed through the atmosphere and escaped back into space. (When in space, such an object is a meteoroid. When it enters the atmosphere and is incandescent, it becomes a meteor. If it explodes or disintegrates in the atmosphere, it is termed a fireball or bolide. After the pieces land, they are called meteorites.) Astronomers were even able to determine the path that the meteoroid had taken around the sun. For millions of years it had traveled as close as 80 million miles from the sun, inside the earths orbit, and had reached out as far as nearly 200 million miles, well beyond Mars. It had taken 1.8 earth years to complete an orbit. In the early days of the solar system, four billion and more years ago, the earth was frequently bombarded with meteorites, many of them huge. The moon was almost certainly formed by a collision between the proto-Earth and a Mars-size object at that time. Even today, in the sedate middle age of the solar system, earths considerable gravitational field sweeps up a lot of space junk as the planet orbits the sun. Every day the earth adds many tons to its mass this way. Most of it is in the form of dust, which simply slows up in the atmosphere without incandescing. But so-called shooting stars, which are about the size of grains of sand, can be seen on any clear night by the dozens from any spot on earth, if you have the patience to wait for them. During meteor showers, such as the Perseids in August and the Leonids in November, when the earth passes through the debris left in the orbits of comets, they can often be seen at a rate of more than one a minute, all seeming to come from the same point in the sky, called the radiant. Very rarely, a meteor storm is encountered, and shooting stars can be seen by the thousands, such as on the night of November 12 to 13, 1833, when at least a quarter of a million shooting stars were seen over North America. Much rarer, fortunately, are the larger hunks of space debris that are too big to be vaporized in the upper atmosphere. These meteor falls are still surprisingly common, however. One landed in a field in Yorkshire, England, in 1795 and narrowly missed a worker. It settled the long-standing argument about whether stones really do fall from the sky. In this country, a woman napping on her couch in her home in Sylacauga, Alabama, was struck by a meteorite on November 30, 1954, when it crashed through her roof, bounced off a radio, and hit her on the leg (see AmericanHeritage.com article here). Houses in Wethersfield, Connecticut, were struck by meteorites only 11 years apart, in 1971 and 1982. Larger meteors pose graver, but exponentially rarer, dangers. The meteor that produced the Barringer Crater in northern Arizona about 50,000 years ago was roughly 50
[meteorite-list] 15th Anniversary of the Peekskill Meteorite Fall
Analysis of the fireball's flight path led to the determination of the object's orbit: ... it originated from the main asteroid belt. Orbital Parameters: Semimajor axis = 1.49 AU Eccentricity = 0.41 Perihelion distance = 0.886 AU Argument of perihelion = 308° Long. ascending node = 17.030° Inclination = 4.9° Orbital period = 1.82 yr Ron Baalke wrote: I obtained a piece of the Peekskill meteorite just a few weeks after it had fallen, and my piece has red paint from the car on the fusion crust. Hi Ron and List, Ron, here is what you wrote Tue, 27 Jan 1998. Remember? Cool photo! I obtained my first piece of Peekskill back in 1992, just a mere 2 weeks after the meteorite had hit the car. Marlin Cilz had just bought the main mass and mentioned to me that there was red car paint on it. I bought a 26 gram piece and specifically asked for a piece with red paint, which he complied. Marlin also sent me several color photos of the meteorite (photos of the whole meteorite - before it was cut up). A black-n-white version of one of the photos would appear on page 86 of Rocks from Space (1st edition) which shows Marlin holding the meteorite with members of the Knapp family. Most people probably don't realize that the meteorite just narrowly missed the gas tank of the car by a few inches. The meteorite also made a small depression under- neath the car (the Peekskill crater?), which I also have a photo of. In 1993, I went to the Tucson show, which had the Peekskill meteorite and car on display. I got to hold the main mass, which by then had been sliced up and was about half of its original size. Oh well, time flies, doesn't it!? I obtained my piece of the Peekskill meteorite on February 22, 1993 and I bet the wording is a telltale testimony to who I got it from ;-) Olivine Bronzite Chondrite Peekskill, New York Type: Becciated H5 or 6 Total Known Weight: 12.3 kg Fell October 9, 1992 Choice light gray polished partial slice with rich black fusion crust along the outer edge. Size: 40 x 35 x 5 mm Weight: 13.3 gram* *a tiny fraction of which (breakage) now resides in Alex Seidel's Collection if he still has it. With a peek at your skills, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 15th Anniversary of the Peekskill Meteorite Fall
Olivine Bronzite Chondrite Peekskill, New York Type: Becciated H5 or 6 Total Known Weight: 12.3 kg Fell October 9, 1992 Choice light gray polished partial slice with rich black fusion crust along the outer edge. Well, unmistakably the wording of DAVID NEW, the grand old master of meteorite selling and trading since the Nineteenfiftees in the United States, now residing in Anacortes/Washington and hopefully still at good health... Size: 40 x 35 x 5 mm Weight: 13.3 gram* *a tiny fraction of which (breakage) now resides in Alex Seidel's Collection if he still has it. Of course, this is still in my collection, and it is going to stay there! A small goodie of 1.42 g with a bit of crust, sold to me nine years ago, Bernd, as you may well recall... :-) Alex Berlin/Stade, Germany __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Headlines: Mike Farmer beats Randall, claims record. - News at 11:00
Hi, This is beneath you... The logical flaw here is that is any beneath beneath the pseudonomynous Randall-of-the-many-names. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dr. Richard (Dick) Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Art [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Bjorn Sorheim [EMAIL PROTECTED]; M come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED]; drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jeff Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Notkin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Piper R.W. Hollier [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Haag [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jason Utas [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Randy Korotev [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Bob WALKER [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Verish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Headlines: Mike Farmer beats Randall, claims record. - News at 11:00 Randall, This is beneath you. Sincerely, Michael on 10/9/07 2:05 AM, Dr. Richard (Dick) Daniels at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr. Dick here, I gots a another one for you folks to pass around. When Mr. Farmer heard they was folks a pisssing in the crater. He was furious. He said I gonna show dem pigs. So Mike proceeded to take a dump. As he squated to clense his colon and cried I did it. I finally beat Randall. He said to the photographer make sure you get a shit, whoops I mean shot. Our boy Mike, also said hahahahaha, I beat Randall nah nah nah nah nah. But moments later Mike heard from one of the locals that Randall got sick on Coca leaves and barfed in the crater, thus upsurping mike so called prize winna. Mike was devustated. When I told Dat idiot. Randall said Good thing the cops weren't looking, I think that's illegal in Peru. Wat the fuk does he know?! Da Jerk. Ya wanna know what dat idiot said again, dat stupid lyer. Randall told me he is a Microsoft Certified Professional. What a lyer. Just like the tyme he told me he was a skydiver,scuba diver,helicopter pilot in Vietnam. Wat a friggin lyer! Dat fool. http://www.meteoriteguy.com/index But ya know, dats only the way I herd it. Could be miss taken. Randall will say Stop spamming the list. Ya no what I would say to dat fool. I'd say, stay off the leaves, ya stupid crackhead -- God doesn't look at how much we do, but with how much love we do it. Mother Teresa -- When Jesus said, Love your enemies I think he probably meant don't kill them. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Peekskill and El Djouf 001
Alex wrote: Of course, this is still in my collection, and it is going to stay there! A small goodie of 1.42 g with a bit of crust, sold to me nine years ago, Bernd, as you may well recall Well, actually I did not sell it in the literal sense of the word but Alex and I swapped meteorites. He got the 1.42-gram Peekskill and I got in exchange a 0.44-gram piece of El Djouf 001 (CR2), back then something incredibly hard to get before the bonanza of NWA meteorites. Best wishes, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New Horizons Sees Changes in Jupiter System
Oct. 9, 2007 Dwayne Brown Headquarters, Washington 202-358-1726 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael Buckley Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, Md. 240-228-7536 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RELEASE: 07-221 NASA SPACECRAFT SEES CHANGES IN JUPITER SYSTEM LAUREL, Md. - NASA's New Horizons spacecraft provided a new bird's-eye view of the dynamic Jupiter system as it traveled through the planet's orbit on Feb. 28. New Horizons used Jupiter's gravity to boost its speed and shave three years off its trip to Pluto. Although the eighth spacecraft to visit Jupiter, New Horizons' combination of trajectory, timing and technology allowed it to explore details never before observed. The spacecraft revealed lightning near the Jupiter's poles, the life cycle of fresh ammonia clouds, boulder-size clumps speeding through the planet's faint rings, the structure inside volcanic eruptions on its moon Io, and the path of charged particles traversing the previously unexplored length of the planet's long, magnetic tail. The Jupiter encounter was successful beyond our wildest dreams, said Alan Stern, principal investigator for the New Horizons mission, NASA Headquarters, Washington. Not only did it prove our spacecraft and put it on course to reach Pluto in 2015, it was a chance for us to take sophisticated instruments to places in the Jovian system where other spacecraft could not go. It returned important data that adds tremendously to our understanding of the solar system's largest planet and its moons, rings and atmosphere. The New Horizons team presented its latest, most detailed analyses of those data Tuesday at the American Astronomical Society's Division for Planetary Sciences meeting in Orlando, Fla. Results also will appear in a special section of the Oct. 12 issue of the journal Science. From January through June, New Horizons' seven science instruments made more than 700 separate observations of the Jovian system. Jupiter's weather was high on the list, as New Horizons' visible light, infrared and ultraviolet remote-sensing instruments probed the planet's atmosphere for data on cloud structure and composition. Instruments saw clouds form from ammonia welling up from the lower atmosphere. Heat-induced lighting strikes in the polar regions also were observed. This was the first polar lighting ever seen beyond Earth, demonstrating that heat moves through water clouds at virtually all latitudes across Jupiter. New Horizons made the most-detailed size and speed measurements yet of waves that run the width of the planet and indicate violent storm activity below. Additionally, New Horizons snapped the first close-up images of the Little Red Spot, gathering new information on storm dynamics. The spot is a nascent storm about half the size of Jupiter's larger Great Red Spot, or about 70 percent of Earth's diameter. The spacecraft captured the clearest images to date of the tenuous Jovian ring system, showing clumps of debris that may indicate a recent impact inside the rings or some more exotic phenomenon. Movies made from New Horizons images offer an unprecedented look at ring dynamics, showing the tiny inner moons Metis and Adrastea shepherding the materials around the rings. A search for smaller moons inside the rings, and possible new sources of the dusty material, found no bodies wider than a mile. The mission's investigations of Jupiter's four largest moons focused on Io, the closest to Jupiter, which has active volcanoes that blast tons of material into the Jovian magnetosphere and beyond. New Horizons spied 11 different volcanic plumes of varying size, three of which were seen for the first time. One, a spectacular 200-mile-high eruption rising above the volcano Tvashtar, provided a unique opportunity to trace plume structure and motion. New Horizons' global map of Io's surface confirms the moon's status as the solar system's most active body, showing more than 20 geological changes since the Galileo Jupiter orbiter provided the last close-up look in 2001. New Horizons' flight down Jupiter's magnetic tail offered a look at the vast region dominated by the planet's strong magnetic field. Specifically observing the fluxes of charged particles that flow hundreds of millions of miles beyond the giant planet, spacecraft particle detectors saw evidence that tons of material from Io's volcanoes move down the tail in large, dense, slow-moving blobs. Designed, built and operated by the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, Md., New Horizons lifted off in January 2006. The fastest spacecraft ever launched, it reached Jupiter in just 13 months. New Horizons is now approximately halfway between the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn, more than 743 million miles from Earth. It will fly past Pluto and its moons in July 2015, then head deeper into the Kuiper belt of icy, rocky objects on the planetary frontier. New Horizons
Re: [meteorite-list] Randall joke on ebay!
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:33:44 -0500, you wrote: Hi, A search of the user name on eBay US site turns up this less than detailed listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=3810item=300158570494 Auction missing now. I guess somebody reported it for failing to meet Ebay's charity guidelines.. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] photographing irons
Normally I do that but it doesn't work well on end cuts _ Laurence Garvie lgarvie at cox.net Tue Oct 9 01:26:47 EDT 2007 Regarding photographing irons - I have had good success scanning them on a flatbed scanner. I typically use 1200 dpi and color. Note, this can produce a large file. I'll try and send a link to an image tomorrow. Laurence CMS ASU __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Peekskill and El Djouf 001
Ok, ok then it was YOU who got that CR2 from me? Well, might have been estimated at $250++/g way back then, or even more, and almost unavailable! The old pre-NWA times :-). This is why we collectors benefit from NWA and the other hot deserts today - no NWA 801 etc around those days... Alex Berlin/Germany Original-Nachricht Datum: 09 Oct 2007 19:15:05 UT Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Peekskill and El Djouf 001 Alex wrote: Of course, this is still in my collection, and it is going to stay there! A small goodie of 1.42 g with a bit of crust, sold to me nine years ago, Bernd, as you may well recall Well, actually I did not sell it in the literal sense of the word but Alex and I swapped meteorites. He got the 1.42-gram Peekskill and I got in exchange a 0.44-gram piece of El Djouf 001 (CR2), back then something incredibly hard to get before the bonanza of NWA meteorites. Best wishes, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 15th Anniversary of the Peekskill Meteorite Fall
Hi All These stories remind me of my Peekskill experience. I was at the Tucson show in Feb of 1993? and had my picture taken with my arm in the hole of Michelle Knapps car. A good friend on mine took the picture and unfortunately misplaced it. I also remember going into Al Lang's room at the old Executive Inn to purchase a piece. I didn't buy one as I was a relatively new collector and would not pay the outrageous price of $15/ gram if I remember correctly. Yes I still kick myself about that one especially since it is my birthday meteorite! Well at least I have a small piece in my collection. Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 10/9/07, Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Olivine Bronzite Chondrite Peekskill, New York Type: Becciated H5 or 6 Total Known Weight: 12.3 kg Fell October 9, 1992 Choice light gray polished partial slice with rich black fusion crust along the outer edge. Well, unmistakably the wording of DAVID NEW, the grand old master of meteorite selling and trading since the Nineteenfiftees in the United States, now residing in Anacortes/Washington and hopefully still at good health... Size: 40 x 35 x 5 mm Weight: 13.3 gram* *a tiny fraction of which (breakage) now resides in Alex Seidel's Collection if he still has it. Of course, this is still in my collection, and it is going to stay there! A small goodie of 1.42 g with a bit of crust, sold to me nine years ago, Bernd, as you may well recall... :-) Alex Berlin/Stade, Germany __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] sept. 25
any falls on sept. 25 (any year)? Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] temps
what is the temperature at which the surface of a skyrock forms fusion crust? Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545433 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] temps
what is the temperature of which the surface of a falling skyrock forms fusion crust? Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 15th Anniversary of the Peekskill Meteorite
Hi All These stories remind me of my Peekskill experience. I was at the Tucson show in Feb of 1993? and had my picture taken with my arm in the hole of Michelle Knapps car. Yes, the car and meteorite were at the Feb 1993 Tucson show. I was there then, we may have bumped into each other. :) Ron __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Peekskill / car parts meteorite specimen
October 28th / Bonhams LOT 5 Portion of the Peekskill meteorite with crust three pieces of the broken taillight, as collected by Ray Meyer---one of the original owners of the Peekskill mass. Reserve equivalent - $61/gram __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Looking for a Gibeon or Muonionalusta Sphere
Someone saw my collection and would like to buy a large 2- 4 Gibeon or Muonionalusta Sphere If anyone has one or knows where I can direct this person to get one please email me off list at bobadebt at ec.rr.com Thanks __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] temps
Hi, By 1200 C, almost all rocks are molten. Olivine, pyroxene, and Ca-rich plagioclase at 1000 C. Ca/Na plagioclase at 800 C. and Na-plagioclase at 600 C. Iron, however, does not melt unit 1538 C. and Fe-Ni-Cr alloys at still higher temperatures. The temperature of high velocity ablative plasma easily reaches and far exceeds these temperatures. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: mckinney trammell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] temps what is the temperature at which the surface of a skyrock forms fusion crust? Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545433 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were able to conclude that this structure has the typical characteristics of an explosive crater. So he must have described an explosion. Details would be nice.] Close witness information would probably make it possible to determine the magnitude of the blast within closer limits than at present. The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. Chris Peterson has suggested airblast effects exaggerate ground readings and that 1 to 2 tons TNT is more reasonable. Now, Brown suggests 30 tons TNT as a measurement. It's possible Don Iruri's story could narrow that down... if anybody had asked him. The LPI Impact Calculator uses the figure of an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch as a nominally perceptible blast force (about equal to an instantaneous gust of 35 mph wind). I tried using the equations from: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm for air-fuel explosions, an event quite similar to an impact vaporization. [We are considering only pressure effects, not flying debris nor any other possible results.] The results are that one finds the distance at which one would experience an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch from a one ton TNT explosion is 158 meters, from a 5 ton event is 270 meters, but from a 30 ton event is 490 meters and from a one kiloton event is 1500 meters. [Caveat: every actual blast is different, affected by surface materials, reflected waves, and a long list of modifiers, including the unknown efficiency of kinetic energy conversion in this impact, so these estimates above have a potential 2-fold error in distance.] Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hello Sterling, Thank you for letting me know your translation of the Bolivian publications, which is very interesting. Just before, I visited http://spaceweather.com/, where another latest infrasound analysis of the Peruvian event by Peter Brown (Univ. W. Ontario) is introduced. His team estimated the kinetic energy of the impactor about 0.03 kton TNT. Best wishes, Kastu - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Rob Matson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, I downloaded all the publications on the site (URL below) and started translating then, but... One is the earlier analysis which I already translated and posted a week ago. The two PowerPoint presentations are general presentations of craters (very nicely done, BTW -- muy bueno!) but don't mention Carancas. One is a press-release style .pdf that describes the event and spends a lot of time explaining what a meteorite is, that they come from the asteroids, that there are craters elsewhere on the planet, that the world is not ending, the usual... There are a few more .pdf are press releases. The only document with any specifics is their physical estimates of the impact and such, all taken from playing with the LPI online Impact Calculator; I recognize the language! Like I haven't already done that 300 times this last week
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. This may sound odd, but where is that number from? I was talking to a geologist of the University of Arequipa, and he told me that they did record nothing at the time of the event. Regards, jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 10.10.07 00:02:42 An: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were able to conclude that this structure has the typical characteristics of an explosive crater. So he must have described an explosion. Details would be nice.] Chris Peterson has suggested airblast effects exaggerate ground readings and that 1 to 2 tons TNT is more reasonable. Now, Brown suggests 30 tons TNT as a measurement. It's possible Don Iruri's story could narrow that down... if anybody had asked him. The LPI Impact Calculator uses the figure of an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch as a nominally perceptible blast force (about equal to an instantaneous gust of 35 mph wind). I tried using the equations from: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm for air-fuel explosions, an event quite similar to an impact vaporization. [We are considering only pressure effects, not flying debris nor any other possible results.] The results are that one finds the distance at which one would experience an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch from a one ton TNT explosion is 158 meters, from a 5 ton event is 270 meters, but from a 30 ton event is 490 meters and from a one kiloton event is 1500 meters. [Caveat: every actual blast is different, affected by surface materials, reflected waves, and a long list of modifiers, including the unknown efficiency of kinetic energy conversion in this impact, so these estimates above have a potential 2-fold error in distance.] Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hello Sterling, Thank you for letting me know your translation of the Bolivian publications, which is very interesting. Just before, I visited http://spaceweather.com/, where another latest infrasound analysis of the Peruvian event by Peter Brown (Univ. W. Ontario) is introduced. His team estimated the kinetic energy of the impactor about 0.03 kton TNT. Best wishes, Kastu - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Rob Matson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, I downloaded all the publications on the site (URL below) and started translating then, but... One is the earlier analysis which I already translated and posted a week ago. The two PowerPoint presentations are general presentations of craters (very nicely done, BTW -- muy bueno!) but don't mention Carancas. One is a press-release style .pdf that describes the event and spends a lot of time explaining
[meteorite-list] Dawn Mission Status: Spacecraft Tests Ion Engine
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-115 Dawn Mission Status: Spacecraft Tests Ion Engine Jet Propulsion Laboratory October 09, 2007 NASA's Dawn spacecraft successfully completed the first test of its ion propulsion system over the weekend. The system is vital to the success of Dawn's 8-year, 1.6 billion-kilometer (3-billion-mile) journey to asteroid Vesta and dwarf planet Ceres. Dawn is our baby and over the weekend it took some of its first steps, said Dawn project manager Keyur Patel of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. We have two months more checkout and characterization remaining before Dawn is considered mission operational, but this is a great start. Members of the Dawn mission control team have been sending up commands and checking out spacecraft systems ever since its successful launch on Sept. 27. The first test firing of one of Dawn's three ion engines was the culmination of several days of careful preparation. On Saturday, Oct. 6 at 6:07 p.m. Pacific Daylight Time (9:07 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time), the ion propulsion system began thrusting. Over the next 27 hours, spacecraft controllers and navigators at JPL monitored the engine's performance as it was put through its paces. We evaluated the engine's capabilities at five different throttle levels, said Jon Brophy, the Dawn project's ion propulsion manager at JPL. From flight idle through full throttle, the engine performed flawlessly. Dawn's ion engines are extremely frugal powerhouses. The 27 hours of thrusting from the ion engine resulted in the consumption of less than .28 kilograms (10 ounces) of the spacecraft's xenon fuel supply -- less than the contents of a can of soda. Dawn's fuel tank carries 425 kilograms (937 pounds) of xenon propellant. Over their lifetime, Dawn's three ion propulsion engines will fire cumulatively for about 50,000 hours (over five years) -- a record for spacecraft. Dawn will begin its exploration of asteroid Vesta in 2011 and the dwarf planet Ceres in 2015. These two icons of the asteroid belt have been witness to so much of our solar system's history. By utilizing the same set of instruments at two separate destinations, scientists can more accurately formulate comparisons and contrasts. Dawn's science instrument suite will measure shape, surface topography, tectonic history, elemental and mineral composition, and will seek out water-bearing minerals. In addition, the Dawn spacecraft itself and how it orbits both Vesta and Ceres will be used to measure the celestial bodies' masses and gravity fields. The Dawn mission to asteroid Vesta and dwarf planet Ceres is managed by JPL for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C. The University of California, Los Angeles is responsible for overall Dawn mission science. Other scientific partners include: Los Alamos National Laboratory, New Mexico; Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, Katlenburg, Germany; DLR Institute for Planetary Research, Berlin, Germany; Italian National Institute for Astrophysics, Rome; and the Italian Space Agency. Orbital Sciences Corporation of Dulles, Virginia, designed and built the Dawn spacecraft. Additional information about Dawn is online at http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov . Media contacts: DC Agle 818-393-9011 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. Dwayne Brown 202-358-1726 NASA Headquarters, Washington 2007-115 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Jan, I interviewed many people, most saw the fall, saw a bright flash a small mushroom cloud of steam/dust that came up and lingered for some time. Everyone felt the grond shake, and heard huge explosion. As the meteorite came overhead, there was a painful sound of a jet engine, only much louder is how most people described it. One man said he was blown down be the blast, could be the same guy. The sounds were loud enough to break windows in Desaguadero and Carancas, and the impact shook the ground like an earthquake. Surely this impact would show up on seismic. One note though, there are large mines on the Bolivian side of the border, perhaps they blat a lot so seismic may not be noticed as much if that is the case. Michael Farmer --- Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. This may sound odd, but where is that number from? I was talking to a geologist of the University of Arequipa, and he told me that they did record nothing at the time of the event. Regards, jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 10.10.07 00:02:42 An: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were able to conclude that this structure has the typical characteristics of an explosive crater. So he must have described an explosion. Details would be nice.] Chris Peterson has suggested airblast effects exaggerate ground readings and that 1 to 2 tons TNT is more reasonable. Now, Brown suggests 30 tons TNT as a measurement. It's possible Don Iruri's story could narrow that down... if anybody had asked him. The LPI Impact Calculator uses the figure of an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch as a nominally perceptible blast force (about equal to an instantaneous gust of 35 mph wind). I tried using the equations from: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm for air-fuel explosions, an event quite similar to an impact vaporization. [We are considering only pressure effects, not flying debris nor any other possible results.] The results are that one finds the distance at which one would experience an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch from a one ton TNT explosion is 158 meters, from a 5 ton event is 270 meters, but from a 30 ton event is 490 meters and from a one kiloton event is 1500 meters. [Caveat: every actual blast is different, affected by surface materials, reflected waves, and a long list of modifiers, including the unknown efficiency of kinetic energy conversion in this impact, so these estimates above have a potential 2-fold error in distance.] Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hello Sterling, Thank you for letting me know your translation of the Bolivian publications, which is very interesting. Just before, I visited http://spaceweather.com/, where another latest
[meteorite-list] The new African Fall
Dear Listees, The last few days, I was trying to collect as much as possible of information about this new African fall. Fortunately I got the exact location; this meteorite fell at the Algerian/Mali boarder on July at a place called Magtaa lafrayss. This is a short story of the name of Magtaa Lafrayss: Magtaa; is an Arabic word means Roundabout. Lafrayss; is an Arabic word, the plural of Lafrissa this word means a Body of animal, or died Animal. A long long time ago, the Touareg called this place Magtaa Lafrayss because there was found a few died Camels, they did not know who killed them or the reason of the death. The possibility that a meteorite killed these camels is presented but it is very hard to make sure on. This meteorite is most likely be an H3 chondrite, a sample was sent for classification. I will post the result as soon as the classification is done. Currently, I am getting my orders, and will make it available for sale very sooner, for those who are interested please send me a email, I will keep your addresses until I start selling. More information on the exact time of the fall and eye witnesses is coming soon. Any email must be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] My best Aziz Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
I also spoke to quite some peoble and I have no doubt that there was a seismic. I do not question that. I just would like to know who recorded it. It's just that I am a bit confused by the statement of the geologist. Jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 10.10.07 00:27:26 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Jan, I interviewed many people, most saw the fall, saw a bright flash a small mushroom cloud of steam/dust that came up and lingered for some time. Everyone felt the grond shake, and heard huge explosion. As the meteorite came overhead, there was a painful sound of a jet engine, only much louder is how most people described it. One man said he was blown down be the blast, could be the same guy. The sounds were loud enough to break windows in Desaguadero and Carancas, and the impact shook the ground like an earthquake. Surely this impact would show up on seismic. One note though, there are large mines on the Bolivian side of the border, perhaps they blat a lot so seismic may not be noticed as much if that is the case. Michael Farmer --- Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. This may sound odd, but where is that number from? I was talking to a geologist of the University of Arequipa, and he told me that they did record nothing at the time of the event. Regards, jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 10.10.07 00:02:42 An: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were able to conclude that this structure has the typical characteristics of an explosive crater. So he must have described an explosion. Details would be nice.] Chris Peterson has suggested airblast effects exaggerate ground readings and that 1 to 2 tons TNT is more reasonable. Now, Brown suggests 30 tons TNT as a measurement. It's possible Don Iruri's story could narrow that down... if anybody had asked him. The LPI Impact Calculator uses the figure of an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch as a nominally perceptible blast force (about equal to an instantaneous gust of 35 mph wind). I tried using the equations from: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm for air-fuel explosions, an event quite similar to an impact vaporization. [We are considering only pressure effects, not flying debris nor any other possible results.] The results are that one finds the distance at which one would experience an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch from a one ton TNT explosion is 158 meters, from a 5 ton event is 270 meters, but from a 30 ton event is 490 meters and from a one kiloton event is 1500 meters. [Caveat: every actual blast is different, affected by surface materials, reflected waves, and a long list of modifiers, including the unknown efficiency of kinetic energy conversion in this impact, so these estimates above have a potential 2-fold error in
[meteorite-list] A not so new witnessed fall
Looking around to find the nearest falls/finds to me ( 34°40'11.92N, 82°31'9.73W, according to Google Earth) and if samples of them are available, I found this document that some of you might not have seen (being that it is a needle in a needlestack): http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/tmp/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Anybody know the word?
http://www.parish-without-borders.net/cditt/cambodia/dailylife/2005/dailylifekh05.htm 3 February 2005 A 10-pound meteorite crashed into rice fields in remote Cambodia last week and the event was definitely seen as a bad omen. It's not hard to understand why. The Khmer word for meteorite literally translates as excrement of the stars. Simple, superstitious villagers believe that meteorites are the result of the heavens literally defecating on them. It's hard to interpret that understanding in any way except a very negative one! If that weren't enough, other scared locals have interpreted the meteorite as a sign from the tsunami spirits that now it is their turn for their bad behavior. Whatever the interpretation, it is a sign of very bad luck for the villagers who saw the meteorite set several hundred acres of rice fields on fire when it landed. District officials have asked for scientists to come and explain the happenings to the local people to relieve their anxieties. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Don't know about seismic, but it appears to have shown up on infrasonic: [from spaceweather.com] *PERUVIAN METEORITE UPDATE: *On Sept. 15th, a fireball streaked across the skies of Peru and soon thereafter a watery crater http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2007/08oct07/crater.jpg was discovered by local residents near the town of Carancas. At first experts dismissed the connection; the crater didn't look like a meteorite impact. But since then minds have changed: Without reservation this is definitely a meteorite, says astronomy professor Peter Brown of the University of Western Ontario. We found some infrasound http://aquarid.physics.uwo.ca/infrasound.htm data recorded by a station in La Paz about 70 km away. From the size of the the airwave we can work out the kinetic energy of the impactor--about 0.03 kton TNT. Something like 20 to 30 kg of the meteorite have already been recovered, but odds are good a multi-ton monster lurks at the bottom of the crater, he continues. The bad news: It is below the water table, the rainy season is coming and unless some action is taken ASAP, the rock will quickly oxidize and crumble. [more http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2007/08oct07/07_09_21_Carancas_meteorite.pdf] Meanwhile, he says, we are digging for seismic data of the actual impact--the first actual seismic recording of a terrestrial meteorite impact! Stay tuned. Michael Farmer wrote: The sounds were loud enough to break windows in Desaguadero and Carancas, and the impact shook the ground like an earthquake. Surely this impact would show up on seismic. One note though, there are large mines on the Bolivian side of the border, perhaps they blat a lot so seismic may not be noticed as much if that is the case. Michael Farmer __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, Jan, List, http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5isWWHSxCh_u0yUNU9Gpk1qfg996A ...More details emerged when astrophysicist Jose Ishitsuka of Peru's Geophysics Institute reached the site about 6 miles from Lake Titicaca. He confirmed that a meteorite caused a crater 42 feet wide and 15 feet deep, the institute's president, Ronald Woodman, told The Associated Press on Thursday. Ishitsuka recovered a 3-inch magnetic fragment and said it contained iron, a mineral found in all rocks from space. The impact also registered a magnitude-1.5 tremor on the institute's seismic equipment - that's as much as an explosion of 4.9 tons of dynamite, Woodman said. Local residents described a fiery ball falling from the sky and smashing into the desolate Andean plain... The IGP has been quoted in the Peruvian press as essentially making the claim that they, rather than INGEMMET, should be in charge of the meteorite, its recovery and preservation. It is possible to interpret the term a fiery ball falling from the sky as meaning that the object was in ablative flight all the way to the ground (has been observed elsewhere, so not impossible). That would mean an impact velocity equal to or greater than 2000 meters/second. 5 TNT tons energy = 21,000,000,000 joules. At 2000 m/s, it would require a 10,500 kilo (10.5 ton) impactor. Some might say that's unlikely. A one TNT ton impact at 2000 m/s would need only a 2 ton impactor, and so on You can fiddle with these figures yourself. Here's the kinetic energy calculator: http://www.csgnetwork.com/kineticenergycalc.html and the Megaton (TNT) joules converter: http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/joules-to-megatons-conversion.html Or, one gram of TNT = 4184 Joules.[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton Crash a few bolides! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. This may sound odd, but where is that number from? I was talking to a geologist of the University of Arequipa, and he told me that they did record nothing at the time of the event. Regards, jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 10.10.07 00:02:42 An: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were able to conclude that this structure has the typical characteristics of an explosive crater. So he must have described an explosion. Details would be nice.] Chris Peterson has suggested airblast effects exaggerate ground readings and that 1 to 2 tons TNT is more reasonable. Now, Brown suggests 30 tons TNT as a measurement. It's possible Don Iruri's story could narrow that down... if anybody had asked him. The LPI Impact Calculator uses the figure of an overpressure of 1 pound per sq. inch as a nominally perceptible blast force (about equal to an instantaneous gust of 35 mph wind). I tried using the equations from: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm for air-fuel explosions, an event quite similar to an impact vaporization. [We are considering only pressure
Re: [meteorite-list] 15th Anniversary of the Peekskill Meteorite Fall
Mike posted: These stories remind me of my Peekskill experience . . . Alex posted: [Remember this old tune of a certain Mary Hopkins, at least you oldtimers amongst us...?? :-)] I'm probably dating myself here, but I had the original 45 (or single as we used to say in England) on the old Apple label. Remember when Apple meant Beatles, not iPod? : ) Mighty Mike Jensen is too modest to mention that today just happens to be his birthday, along with Peekskill. Could you ask for a more spectacular birthday meteorite? Many happy returns to Mike. For anyone who hasn't seen it, Al Lang has a fun page about the adventures of the globetrotting Peekskill Meteorite Car here: http://www.nyrockman.com/peekskill.htm BTW, I make it 115 days until Tucson 2008, so make your hotel reservations. Geoff N. Tucson, AZ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] fermo
anybody got this for sale? Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545433 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, All The tiniest details yield important information. If a multiplicity of witnesses described a bright flash, then there is no doubt there was a thermal event that generated enough heat to produce not a red glow nor a yellow light but a bright flash. That's an explosion, a vaporization event, a big one. No object that remains intact generates ANY light at all on impact, no matter how big or small it is. If you assume the force needed to knock a man down at 300 meters away is the equivalent to a 60 or 70 mph gust of wind, that would require a minimum of a 20 ton TNT impact; possibly 30, like Brown says. It may have been only the less energetic vaporization of the 5% to 8% of the meteorite that was troilite that was the bright flash, rather than the vaporization of the entire stone. Still, that alone would have been more than enough of an explosion to shatter the impactor to fragments (or dust). Strangely enough, Peter Brown, who published the 30 ton TNT impact estimate, says odds are good a multi-ton monster lurks at the bottom of the crater. I say strangely because a slow survivable fall (at a subsonic speed of 300 meters/second) of 30 tons TNT impact energy would require a 2800 TON impactor (that's only a mere 6,200,000 pounds!). Assuming a density of 2.5, that would be a stone ball 40 feet in diameter, about the same size as the crater itself! Didcha see any 40-foot stone balls lying around Carancas? Maybe it rolled off... The only thing I can figure is that the sheer romantic lure of a monster meteorite waiting to be discovered and raised from the dark depths of the crater overwhelms the little gray cells of everybody involved. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Jan, I interviewed many people, most saw the fall, saw a bright flash a small mushroom cloud of steam/dust that came up and lingered for some time. Everyone felt the grond shake, and heard huge explosion. As the meteorite came overhead, there was a painful sound of a jet engine, only much louder is how most people described it. One man said he was blown down be the blast, could be the same guy. The sounds were loud enough to break windows in Desaguadero and Carancas, and the impact shook the ground like an earthquake. Surely this impact would show up on seismic. One note though, there are large mines on the Bolivian side of the border, perhaps they blat a lot so seismic may not be noticed as much if that is the case. Michael Farmer --- Jan Hattenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Peruvian seismic measurement was 5 tons TNT. This may sound odd, but where is that number from? I was talking to a geologist of the University of Arequipa, and he told me that they did record nothing at the time of the event. Regards, jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 10.10.07 00:02:42 An: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL Hi, After reading through those other documents on the Major University of San Andres website and concluding that they contained nothing we didn't already know, I realized I hadn't read the footnotes in the one article that had footnotes, and indeed I found one new piece of information in those footnotes: one local inhabitant of Carancas, Don Gregorio Iruri, was standing only 300 meters from the point of impact at the time of the impact. That's all, a one-sentence footnote. It astounds me that an investigator, scientific or otherwise, had located an eye-witness to as rare an event as a cosmic impact but did not ask questions nor collect his story! What did it look like? What did it sound like? Was there a flash of light? How bright was it? How strong was the shock wave? How strong was the wind from the blast? Was he knocked down? Rolled over? Or did he stay on his feet? Was he deafened, even slightly? And about 1000 other questions... The closest living witness to a cosmic impact among the planet's 6.6 billion people and no one asked him to describe it? Makes me wonder how justified the second term of the biological name Homo sapiens is. Maybe we should all just stand around dumbly like cows. Oh, wait! -- we do. [In all fairness, the witness may have been so shaken as to not have had a coherent story, but even that fact is useful information. They say in reference to Don Iruri only this: ...podemos concluir que esa estructura tiene la típica característica de un cráter explosivo. Or, ...we were
[meteorite-list] Peekskill AD
I still have a few of these left, all original hardware http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com/catalog/peekskill.html Rob Wesel http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com -- We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Ad: Large Sikhote-Alin ending on ebay in two hours.
Take time to check out the items ending this evening. Very nice large 763 gram Sikhote-alin shrapnel ending in less than two hours. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ130157598865 http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?viewUserPageuserid=meteoritehunters Thanks Mike Farmer __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
You wrote: It may have been only the less energetic vaporization of the 5% to 8% of the meteorite that was troilite that was the bright flash rather then the vaporization of the entire stone. Still, that alone would have been enough to shatter the impactor into fragments (or dust). If that were the scenario, would an observation posted to the list on 10/5 by Piper R. W. Hollier seem a reasonable expectation: Troilite dissociates at high temperatures (e.g. hypersonic impact), releasing hot sulphur vapor, which in turn will oxidize in air to form sulphur dioxide, a very irritating poison. At the time Piper's theory as to why all the sickness was reported seemed to me to be the best explanation for the reports. Would the above scenario support that notion? Charlie D. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Sale-AD-Ebay Auctions ending in 4 hours-Auckland-Nininger-RELICS
Hello list, I have these two auctions ending in 4 hours from now. Auckland Meteorite Relic Set http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=230177911599ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=013 Nininger Museum Relic http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=230177911918ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=013 Thanks, Thomas Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Erwin Rivera Carancas Recognition
This guy deserves some recognition and praise for offering free Carancas meteorite samples as well as offering pictures. I just received my free 1.5 gram fragment from Erwin today. Obviously this guy didnt have to do this and his actions sure are rare today. http://cgi.ebay.com/FREE-CARANCAS-CRATER-METEORITE-SAMPLES-PICTURES_W0QQitemZ180168094136QQihZ008QQcategoryZ3239QQcmdZViewItem Thanks Erwin ! Bob Evans __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Erwin Rivera Carancas Recognition
I am confused, he sends free meteorites and photos, in the mail, from Bolivia? Why? What is the catch? Why is he throwing money away? Michael Farmer --- Bob Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This guy deserves some recognition and praise for offering free Carancas meteorite samples as well as offering pictures. I just received my free 1.5 gram fragment from Erwin today. Obviously this guy didnt have to do this and his actions sure are rare today. http://cgi.ebay.com/FREE-CARANCAS-CRATER-METEORITE-SAMPLES-PICTURES_W0QQitemZ180168094136QQihZ008QQcategoryZ3239QQcmdZViewItem Thanks Erwin ! Bob Evans __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Slickensides vs Shock Veins Revisited
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:33:52 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: Hello Graham, Bernd, list While there is no technical definition of a shock vein so far as I know, it is in wide use and I hold it to be a version of a healed fracture I was re-examining with a 20x loupe today an unclassified NWA I've had for a couple of years and was remineded of recently, and it made me think of this thread-- it has especially fine shock veins that branch like a little lightning bolt in the stone. (Both halves together weigh 41 grams): http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/temp/white_nwa_inside.jpg http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/temp/white_nwa_outside.jpg __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL
Hi, Yes, the fact that the dissociation of the troilite would explain the strange odors and reported illnesses convinces me that it got at least that hot. Troilite's vapor point is 700 K. or 427 C. and it would dissociate immediately in the presence of water or even just humidity. That even sets a lower limit to the heat produced by the impact. It could always have generated more heat than that. At impact, the kinetic energy of the stone goes from being potential energy to being thermal energy. The entire object's temperature is instantly increased. The troilite goes from a cold solid to a hot vapor and in so doing expands many times in volume... or tries to. I haven't worked out the actual ratio of increase because you don't have to. ALL solid to gas transitions increase volume and/or pressure by a huge factor; that's how explosives work. So, no big rock in the mudpit, but maybe lots of fragments. Recovering them would tell you a lot. The stuff found outside the crater was blasted off the backside of the object by the shock of the impact and wasn't subjected to the full heating. But stuff from inside the crater would reveal whether there was any rock melt, or even rock vaporization. Thermal alteration would establish how hot it got and that would let you calculate the impact speed very reasonably. A total absence of fragments is unlikely. There would be some of the free iron from the meteorite at a minimum, even if the rock was pulverized. Water appears to be moving through the crater, though; it's in a riverbed. Material is being washed away constantly. It may be too late, or perhaps only heavy items will remain. And the rainy season is coming, as Mike tried to point out to the local authorities. You can only do what you can do. It's been almost a month. I wonder how long it will take the Peruvians to mobilize? Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Publications of the Carancas event ADDITIONAL You wrote: It may have been only the less energetic vaporization of the 5% to 8% of the meteorite that was troilite that was the bright flash rather then the vaporization of the entire stone. Still, that alone would have been enough to shatter the impactor into fragments (or dust). If that were the scenario, would an observation posted to the list on 10/5 by Piper R. W. Hollier seem a reasonable expectation: Troilite dissociates at high temperatures (e.g. hypersonic impact), releasing hot sulphur vapor, which in turn will oxidize in air to form sulphur dioxide, a very irritating poison. At the time Piper's theory as to why all the sickness was reported seemed to me to be the best explanation for the reports. Would the above scenario support that notion? Charlie D. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Peekskill AD
Hi All I would really recommend these kits to anyone who is into more than just the meteorite. I picked up one of these from Rob at Tucson this year. They are a really cool kit is it comes with all the extra swag. I don't have it on display yet but I believe all of the pieces together will make for some extra punch for non meteorite people. Hey it might even be a little bit of an educational display as well. Make sure you check it out. Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 10/9/07, Rob Wesel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still have a few of these left, all original hardware http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com/catalog/peekskill.html Rob Wesel http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com -- We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Peekskill / car parts meteorite specimen
Hi Darryl, Was wondering if the specimen weighs 26 grams or not. If not how many grams then. All my best! --AL Mitterling Darryl Pitt wrote: October 28th / Bonhams LOT 5 Portion of the Peekskill meteorite with crust three pieces of the broken taillight, as collected by Ray Meyer---one of the original owners of the Peekskill mass. Reserve equivalent - $61/gram __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Tucson Show Info?
I need to start making plans for the upcoming Tucson Show, and was wondering if anyone knows what the exact dates for the main weekend are? The auctions, party etc? Thanks in advance! Dave Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Meteor clips-- posted before?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLM1pfgv9IE __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tucson Show Info?
Hello Dave, It's always the first weekend in February, or at least has been in the past, with the party being that Friday night, the auctions over Saturday (Sat. night = Michael Blood's) and Sunday (Lang's). Unless there's some odd change for this year (over the past decade or so, it hasn't deviated from this schedule), it's the same as above... Regards, Jason On 10/9/07, Dave Schultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I need to start making plans for the upcoming Tucson Show, and was wondering if anyone knows what the exact dates for the main weekend are? The auctions, party etc? Thanks in advance! Dave Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteor clips-- posted before?
savory. --- Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLM1pfgv9IE __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545433 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tucson Show Info?
I heard the auctions are the 9th of Feb. Matt -- Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 USA -Original Message- From: Jason Utas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:25:07 To:Dave Schultz [EMAIL PROTECTED], Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Tucson Show Info? Hello Dave, It's always the first weekend in February, or at least has been in the past, with the party being that Friday night, the auctions over Saturday (Sat. night = Michael Blood's) and Sunday (Lang's). Unless there's some odd change for this year (over the past decade or so, it hasn't deviated from this schedule), it's the same as above... Regards, Jason On 10/9/07, Dave Schultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I need to start making plans for the upcoming Tucson Show, and was wondering if anyone knows what the exact dates for the main weekend are? The auctions, party etc? Thanks in advance! Dave Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Tucson Show Dates Link
Tucson show Start Feb 5 2008, ends 14th Here's a link http://www.tucsongemshowguide.com/ Keith Chandler AZ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Slickensides vs Shock Veins Revisited
--- Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it has especially fine shock veins that branch like a little lightning bolt in the stone. Another distinction is that a filled fracture aka shock vein will be the same on each side--showing matching halves of any feature it transects. A slickenside will show some displacement in true fault fashion. Features will show displacment with matrix features offset. Shock vein: =\= , slickenside: _\- Elton __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tucson Show Dates Link
This site is more comprehensive. http://www.tucsonshowguide.com/tsg/ John Kashuba Ontario, California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arizona Keith Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 8:54 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Tucson Show Dates Link Tucson show Start Feb 5 2008, ends 14th Here's a link http://www.tucsongemshowguide.com/ Keith Chandler AZ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Erwin Rivera Carancas Recognition -Suggestion for Mike Tiger Man Farmer
Hola don Michael: re: The Peru meteorite. My patience with your impact on the hobby I love has ended. I regret that I am making these public remarks, lets call it a family discussion, but as the present face of the hobby you are jeopardizing the kind and gentle nature of collecting meteorites. I don't understand why this is being tolerated by others, but I do not accept your actions as representative of this pasttime. You wrote: Good luck getting your pieces from Bolivia. I give a 1 in 10 chance for a package to arrive unpilfered. But a free package of the Peru meteorite from a Cochabamba mineral dealer arrives safely to a client in the USA. Then you wonder: I am confused, he sends free meteorites and photos, in the mail, from Bolivia? Why? What is the catch? Why is he throwing money away? Michael Farmer I suppose that it is because for some people, reputation or generosity is more important than pursuing fame and money. This dealer actually just changed his website to defend his honor. Why? Were there so many people commenting on this individuals poor business practices, or was it just you, Mike Farmer, on the m-list alluding to a negative outcome to anyone who would send money to a Bolivian dealer? Aren't you the one who always claims untoward remarks are slander? Because of your Peruvian visit, arguably an attractive nuisance in legal terms as you arrived passing out US dollars for dangerous rocks in a place with a per capita income less than Haiti, the bulk of the police force of the area is now out of work, and the locals without whatever degree of protection they previously enjoyed. The crater is being guarded 24 hours a day to protect it from the likes of you. Of course, Desaguaderos is a craphole, the definition that would come up first. The scientists involved? The people from the University of Peru are clueless. Are you campaigning to become the next anti-Christ? You have my vote. You write: The meteorite in the crater weighs in excess of 4,000 to 5,000 kilos. You write: taken by locals mostly crumbs and dust, we got nice pieces, all pristine, not rusted crap. You write: meteorite is mostly lost/rusted away You write: ... twenty to thirty kilos were found by tourists and locals You write: Forget it, this meteorite will be lost, is already three weeks under water as of today, is being damaged beyond repair. There are a few kilos recovered. Whatever is now left in the crater will be mud, or extremely damaged/weathered material. We are selling by the way Michael Farmer So according to you, there are 4,000 to 5,000 kilos in the ground and perhaps thirty kilos recovered.But it is all crumbs and dust, lost and rusty. ATTENTION SHOPPERS! Only Tiger Man can sell you, by the way, authenticated pristine specimens. And this dialogue runs to forty-eight (48) messages in nine days. And some thought Steve (Chicago) abused the list. Mike, your cost for the 300 grams you say you collected was $1,000 according to you. Your RT plane ticket from Cali, Columbia was less than $600 as per Expedia.com, your hotel room $4/night (We overpaid..), taxi from the border was $40. Gifts to the police was $300 ($100 each). Food and beer is almost nothing. Your estimated cost per gram is about $7. Let me not forget the price you paid for the rights to the photo of the meteorite contrail, I gave him enough to buy a new camera and take 1000 photos. So we're at $7.25/gm. You are selling this for $100/gm, right? 300gms. times $100 = $30,000. Is your profit about $28,000 for less than a weeks work? So you expect a $28K profit AND a vacation tax write-off of $2K? You go, capitalism! You write: Come on, these people are poor, the country had an earthquake that left tens of thousands homeless barely two months ago. It is simple, we pumped the water from the crater. It worked OK, of course will immediately begins to refill. You need 10 men with buckets and shovels, nothing more. You dig, you pump, you dig, you pump and in one or two days, the entire crater can be excavated. No equipment needed other than pumps and manpower, which we had. So you have a plan. Good. I propose that the meteorite is NOT rusty crap. The water it sits in is from a spring and is fresh. I remind all that Pena Blanca Springs sat in a pond until it was drained and the pieces dug out of the mud. No less than the the angrite Angra dos Reis was retrieved from the Atlantic Ocean. Mike, a gesture, call it penance, really the least you could do, would be to return to Peru and pay the couple of thousand bucks in that fifty cent economy and dig up the rock. After all, it was money sent to YOU directly from Heaven, so do something once to pretend to be an Angel, not a Tiger. From Nine Degrees North, Kevin Kichinka __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Tucson 2008 - Correct Dates
Dear Dave, Keith, Matt, Listees: No disrespect to my pal Keith, but I suggest we disregard the URL posted earlier: http://www.tucsongemshowguide.com It's a knock-off site, and they don't have the show dates correct. The most comprehensive Tucson guide (apart from Meteorite Times of course) is here: http://www.tucsonshowguide.com Please note this site is not fully up-to-date for 2008 yet, but the main show dates are listed. The part many of you care about is the Arizona Mineral and Fossil Show, which is Marty Zinn's operation and encompasses the InnSuites, the Ramada Inn Limited, etc. That show runs from Feb. 2 through Feb. 16, 2008. The Westward Look show runs from Feb. 8 through Feb. 11, 2008. The party, the Harvey Awards, and Michael Blood's auction always fall on the middle weekend each year, which would place them on February 8 and 9 and that will coincide nicely with the short but excellent Westward Look weekend show. Steve Arnold #1, Cap'n Blood and myself will put our heads together and finalize those event dates for you. I suppose this is as good a time as any to mention that I have accepted the position of Managing Editor and Art Director of the Tucson EZ-Guide. That is the colorful, easy-to-use pocket guide which has been such a hit for the past couple of years. The publishers -- Xpo Press in Colorado -- are friends and clients and they want the EZ-Guide to be *the* hip Tucson guide. They envision it being written, designed, and printed right here in Tucson and I just couldn't bear to say no to that idea : ) My good friend and colleague Lisa Marie, a well-known silversmith, jeweler, and writer here in Tucson, is the new ad sales manager. If you have advertised in the guide before and wish to do so again, please contact Xpo Press. If you wish to become a new advertiser, please write to me off-List. This all means two things for me: 1) We intend to produce the best-ever Tucson show guide, and I welcome any feedback from those of you who have used it in the past. 2) I will have much less free time in 2008 than I have during previous shows, as the guide is a large undertaking. I will, therefore, not be able to organize the party, the Harvey Awards, and the rest of it without some help. I'd hate to see the party and the awards disappear after -- what is it now? -- seven consecutive years. We no longer have use of The Copper Club, partly because the manager is one of the rudest people I have ever met, and partly because the dear old Ramada Inn University is now some kind of chic student housing resort. So, one or more of you will have to please step up and help me organize the 2008 party or there isn't going to be one. Volunteers enthusiastically received. Please write to me off-List. More Tucson 2008 news when we have it. Regards to all, Geoff N. www.aerolite.org __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Shawnee tradition, hermeneutic condition
Sorry. I need to proofread. It's a sentence: to minutes of unnecessary convolution. The parenthetic section should have been a footnote. -Thaddeus --- dmouat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That first sentence (if it is, in fact, a sentence) is definitely the longest (albeit obfuscatory) I've read all month. Hohohoba Thaddeus Besedin wrote: The Shawnee and others are the ONLY sources of Pleistocene cultural information, possibly preserved in accounts of the cosmogony of late-coming Paleoindian populations (as also can be expected of the mythopoesis of indigenous Northern Asian populations, e.g. early Jomon Proto-Ainu people(~16,000 BP - ~2,450 BP), certainly surviving relatively intact through the cold snap of the Younger Dryas, although not necessarily witnessing an impact - unless by hemispheric diffuse supernova ejecta), that a study, constrained entirely to an output of speculative-associative quasi-syntheses with all caveats understood, can draw from. Unverifiability is not itself completely at odds with scientific practice, and correspondence of paleoclimatological reconstructions, geological evidence, and archaeological evidence can parallel mythos and, to a minimal degree, offer a possible translation of metaphorical-allegorical narrative. Thus, scholars with the aspirations of an E.P. Grondine are limited to a view of their subject from distances beyond mere time (semantic indeterminability/incommensurability apply - a transmission from crystallized indigenous accounts, to eurocentric 19th c. ethnographers to E.P.G.). Archaeolgy is much easier, but certainly mute. Just don't call Hibben a rigorous and ethical scientist. We must, to arrive at the closest degee of recorded experience, decolonialize our view of vanquished non-european cultural traditions, but what we have left (Eurocentric ethnographies)is the best that we have left. What do the current Shawnee think of the works of white ethnographers? One last thing - I found this article at the PNAS site, although another list member may have beat me to it: Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0706977104v1.pdf [full-color images, graphs, etc. in PDF format] --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk wrote: List and Ed, Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question. E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:... Do you really want to stand by such a display of a lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to reconsider that statement? - Yes, I stand by my statements of fact. They were no statements of fact, Dirk. You made assertions concerning Native American traditions which were both factually incorrect, as well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the field of anthropology. You compared millenium old traditions with a 175 year old forgery. And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are indeed your belief, thus not science. And how did you get that? My facts are one thing, my beliefs another. I gave the allegories of several Native American religions in Man and Impact in the Americas, as well as giving their oral histories there - and mainly I gave their histories. Those are facts about those peoples in and of themselves. By the way, the Maya had written writing, and made contemporaneous records of events. What I believe is something else. I think that there are Christians who are scientists, Jews who are scientists, Moslems who are scientists, Budhists who are scientists. Can't one hold a Native American belief system and be a scientist? Or can science only practiced by atheists and English Deists? Or perhaps history and anthropology are not sciences? Belief posed as fact or science is poor scholarship, as your book and excerpts clearly display. So is misrepresenting someone else's work, and misrepresenting their use of materials. Also, lack of any primary research (nothing remotely demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact) Except for the sudden population losses and cultural discontinuities... But then displays of physical evidence are often invisible to some people. So watch the National Geographic Channel program on TV. As a final point, the day after my final warning to Darryl on Williamette, I ran into a gentleman whose uncle had bulldozed a mound. Three days later he was found dead of heart attack drooped over a toilet into which he had been vomiting stuff that looked like s***. While that's a fact, it is only my belief that no good will come to Darryl or anyone from dealing Williamette - if
Re: [meteorite-list] Shawnee tradition, hermeneutic condition
Sorry. I need to proofread. It's a sentence: to minutes of unnecessary convolution. The parenthetic section should have been a footnote. -Thaddeus --- dmouat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That first sentence (if it is, in fact, a sentence) is definitely the longest (albeit obfuscatory) I've read all month. Hohohoba Thaddeus Besedin wrote: The Shawnee and others are the ONLY sources of Pleistocene cultural information, possibly preserved in accounts of the cosmogony of late-coming Paleoindian populations (as also can be expected of the mythopoesis of indigenous Northern Asian populations, e.g. early Jomon Proto-Ainu people(~16,000 BP - ~2,450 BP), certainly surviving relatively intact through the cold snap of the Younger Dryas, although not necessarily witnessing an impact - unless by hemispheric diffuse supernova ejecta), that a study, constrained entirely to an output of speculative-associative quasi-syntheses with all caveats understood, can draw from. Unverifiability is not itself completely at odds with scientific practice, and correspondence of paleoclimatological reconstructions, geological evidence, and archaeological evidence can parallel mythos and, to a minimal degree, offer a possible translation of metaphorical-allegorical narrative. Thus, scholars with the aspirations of an E.P. Grondine are limited to a view of their subject from distances beyond mere time (semantic indeterminability/incommensurability apply - a transmission from crystallized indigenous accounts, to eurocentric 19th c. ethnographers to E.P.G.). Archaeolgy is much easier, but certainly mute. Just don't call Hibben a rigorous and ethical scientist. We must, to arrive at the closest degee of recorded experience, decolonialize our view of vanquished non-european cultural traditions, but what we have left (Eurocentric ethnographies)is the best that we have left. What do the current Shawnee think of the works of white ethnographers? One last thing - I found this article at the PNAS site, although another list member may have beat me to it: Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0706977104v1.pdf [full-color images, graphs, etc. in PDF format] --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk wrote: List and Ed, Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question. E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:... Do you really want to stand by such a display of a lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to reconsider that statement? - Yes, I stand by my statements of fact. They were no statements of fact, Dirk. You made assertions concerning Native American traditions which were both factually incorrect, as well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the field of anthropology. You compared millenium old traditions with a 175 year old forgery. And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are indeed your belief, thus not science. And how did you get that? My facts are one thing, my beliefs another. I gave the allegories of several Native American religions in Man and Impact in the Americas, as well as giving their oral histories there - and mainly I gave their histories. Those are facts about those peoples in and of themselves. By the way, the Maya had written writing, and made contemporaneous records of events. What I believe is something else. I think that there are Christians who are scientists, Jews who are scientists, Moslems who are scientists, Budhists who are scientists. Can't one hold a Native American belief system and be a scientist? Or can science only practiced by atheists and English Deists? Or perhaps history and anthropology are not sciences? Belief posed as fact or science is poor scholarship, as your book and excerpts clearly display. So is misrepresenting someone else's work, and misrepresenting their use of materials. Also, lack of any primary research (nothing remotely demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact) Except for the sudden population losses and cultural discontinuities... But then displays of physical evidence are often invisible to some people. So watch the National Geographic Channel program on TV. As a final point, the day after my final warning to Darryl on Williamette, I ran into a gentleman whose uncle had bulldozed a mound. Three days later he was found dead of heart attack drooped over a toilet into which he had been vomiting stuff that looked like s***. While that's a fact, it is only my belief that no good will come to Darryl or anyone from dealing Williamette - if
Re: [meteorite-list] Shawnee tradition, hermeneutic condition
Sorry. I need to proofread. It's a sentence: to minutes of unnecessary convolution. The parenthetic section should have been a footnote. -Thaddeus --- dmouat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That first sentence (if it is, in fact, a sentence) is definitely the longest (albeit obfuscatory) I've read all month. Hohohoba Thaddeus Besedin wrote: The Shawnee and others are the ONLY sources of Pleistocene cultural information, possibly preserved in accounts of the cosmogony of late-coming Paleoindian populations (as also can be expected of the mythopoesis of indigenous Northern Asian populations, e.g. early Jomon Proto-Ainu people(~16,000 BP - ~2,450 BP), certainly surviving relatively intact through the cold snap of the Younger Dryas, although not necessarily witnessing an impact - unless by hemispheric diffuse supernova ejecta), that a study, constrained entirely to an output of speculative-associative quasi-syntheses with all caveats understood, can draw from. Unverifiability is not itself completely at odds with scientific practice, and correspondence of paleoclimatological reconstructions, geological evidence, and archaeological evidence can parallel mythos and, to a minimal degree, offer a possible translation of metaphorical-allegorical narrative. Thus, scholars with the aspirations of an E.P. Grondine are limited to a view of their subject from distances beyond mere time (semantic indeterminability/incommensurability apply - a transmission from crystallized indigenous accounts, to eurocentric 19th c. ethnographers to E.P.G.). Archaeolgy is much easier, but certainly mute. Just don't call Hibben a rigorous and ethical scientist. We must, to arrive at the closest degee of recorded experience, decolonialize our view of vanquished non-european cultural traditions, but what we have left (Eurocentric ethnographies)is the best that we have left. What do the current Shawnee think of the works of white ethnographers? One last thing - I found this article at the PNAS site, although another list member may have beat me to it: Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0706977104v1.pdf [full-color images, graphs, etc. in PDF format] --- E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dirk wrote: List and Ed, Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question. E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:... Do you really want to stand by such a display of a lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to reconsider that statement? - Yes, I stand by my statements of fact. They were no statements of fact, Dirk. You made assertions concerning Native American traditions which were both factually incorrect, as well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the field of anthropology. You compared millenium old traditions with a 175 year old forgery. And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are indeed your belief, thus not science. And how did you get that? My facts are one thing, my beliefs another. I gave the allegories of several Native American religions in Man and Impact in the Americas, as well as giving their oral histories there - and mainly I gave their histories. Those are facts about those peoples in and of themselves. By the way, the Maya had written writing, and made contemporaneous records of events. What I believe is something else. I think that there are Christians who are scientists, Jews who are scientists, Moslems who are scientists, Budhists who are scientists. Can't one hold a Native American belief system and be a scientist? Or can science only practiced by atheists and English Deists? Or perhaps history and anthropology are not sciences? Belief posed as fact or science is poor scholarship, as your book and excerpts clearly display. So is misrepresenting someone else's work, and misrepresenting their use of materials. Also, lack of any primary research (nothing remotely demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact) Except for the sudden population losses and cultural discontinuities... But then displays of physical evidence are often invisible to some people. So watch the National Geographic Channel program on TV. As a final point, the day after my final warning to Darryl on Williamette, I ran into a gentleman whose uncle had bulldozed a mound. Three days later he was found dead of heart attack drooped over a toilet into which he had been vomiting stuff that looked like s***. While that's a fact, it is only my belief that no good will come to Darryl or anyone from dealing Williamette - if
Re: [meteorite-list] Erwin Rivera Carancas Recognition -Suggestion for Mike Tiger Man Farmer
Get a grip Keven, you have no clue about what I did, or where I came from. Michael Farmer I asked why a guy who is selling rocks on ebay is also giving them away for free. Valid question. Michael Farmer It is always, something, always some reason to condemn those of us who do it. We didnt pay enough, we didnt suffer enough, we make too much money etc etc etc. I guess the money I gave them can not compete with your $1.25 hour gardener. You admit that you pay the local rate, so how is my paying half a years wage for a rock somehow ripping the people off? Your math is off by a lot my friend. But regardless, I need not answer to you. Because of me, rocks are now in labs all over the USA, Canada, and Japan, or on their way to those destinations at least. We went there, we got the job done, and finally people can have pieces in their hands. I have no problem at all with the Bolivian dealer, why would I? I meerly wanted to know why free pieces would be shipped from South America, where money is much harder to come by. Have a nice night Keven, forget about meteorites. You are out of the game for a lot of years now. Michael Farmer --- Kevin Kichinka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hola don Michael: re: The Peru meteorite. My patience with your impact on the hobby I love has ended. I regret that I am making these public remarks, lets call it a family discussion, but as the present face of the hobby you are jeopardizing the kind and gentle nature of collecting meteorites. I don't understand why this is being tolerated by others, but I do not accept your actions as representative of this pasttime. You wrote: Good luck getting your pieces from Bolivia. I give a 1 in 10 chance for a package to arrive unpilfered. But a free package of the Peru meteorite from a Cochabamba mineral dealer arrives safely to a client in the USA. Then you wonder: I am confused, he sends free meteorites and photos, in the mail, from Bolivia? Why? What is the catch? Why is he throwing money away? Michael Farmer I suppose that it is because for some people, reputation or generosity is more important than pursuing fame and money. This dealer actually just changed his website to defend his honor. Why? Were there so many people commenting on this individuals poor business practices, or was it just you, Mike Farmer, on the m-list alluding to a negative outcome to anyone who would send money to a Bolivian dealer? Aren't you the one who always claims untoward remarks are slander? Because of your Peruvian visit, arguably an attractive nuisance in legal terms as you arrived passing out US dollars for dangerous rocks in a place with a per capita income less than Haiti, the bulk of the police force of the area is now out of work, and the locals without whatever degree of protection they previously enjoyed. The crater is being guarded 24 hours a day to protect it from the likes of you. Of course, Desaguaderos is a craphole, the definition that would come up first. The scientists involved? The people from the University of Peru are clueless. Are you campaigning to become the next anti-Christ? You have my vote. You write: The meteorite in the crater weighs in excess of 4,000 to 5,000 kilos. You write: taken by locals mostly crumbs and dust, we got nice pieces, all pristine, not rusted crap. You write: meteorite is mostly lost/rusted away You write: ... twenty to thirty kilos were found by tourists and locals You write: Forget it, this meteorite will be lost, is already three weeks under water as of today, is being damaged beyond repair. There are a few kilos recovered. Whatever is now left in the crater will be mud, or extremely damaged/weathered material. We are selling by the way Michael Farmer So according to you, there are 4,000 to 5,000 kilos in the ground and perhaps thirty kilos recovered.But it is all crumbs and dust, lost and rusty. ATTENTION SHOPPERS! Only Tiger Man can sell you, by the way, authenticated pristine specimens. And this dialogue runs to forty-eight (48) messages in nine days. And some thought Steve (Chicago) abused the list. Mike, your cost for the 300 grams you say you collected was $1,000 according to you. Your RT plane ticket from Cali, Columbia was less than $600 as per Expedia.com, your hotel room $4/night (We overpaid..), taxi from the border was $40. Gifts to the police was $300 ($100 each). Food and beer is almost nothing. Your estimated cost per gram is about $7. Let me not forget the price you paid for the rights to the photo of the meteorite contrail, I gave him enough to buy a new camera and take 1000 photos. So we're at $7.25/gm. You are selling this for $100/gm, right? 300gms. times $100 = $30,000. Is your profit about $28,000 for less than a weeks work? So you expect a $28K profit AND a vacation tax write-off of $2K? You
