Re: [meteorite-list] A welcome to meteorite collecting tutorial
Hi Pete: As at least one other person has said, please be careful with the definition of bolide. The IAU does not recognize the term (they do not recognize terrestrial or gas giant or Jovian for planets either, but that is a part of another story). However, if you look at the Wikipedia definition, impact geologists use it for big things hitting the Earth since there is no way to know what did the hitting (comet or asteroid). Larry On Tue, March 4, 2008 9:39 pm, Pete Shugar wrote: I amr putting together an email that will introduce two of my Junior High students to the wonderful and bizzare world of the -TA TAH- meteorite collectior. Please read and feel free to offer any sugestions. Please let me know if I've left out any important info or need to include something. Any or all of this can be freely used in any way deemed useful by others. Some terms to learn. A meteoriod is the object in space. It can also be an asteroid, or even a comet. The streak of light as it enters earth's atmosphere is called a meteor. The ball of light and smoke as the meteor explodes into many fragments is called a bolide. What actually hits the ground is a meteorite. The collectors refer to themselves as meteoricists. The following link will set you up to receive Meteorite list emails. I urge you to join this as there is much to be gained and learned from the many experts as well as the newbies. Questions are answered (sometimes more answers than you need at the time). Like any group, there are squables, but even in the midst of these, there are things to be learned. http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list If you go to Ebay to buy, look for the Logo of the IMCA. Attached is a picture of the logo. You can ask the seller if he is a member. If they are not a member, do not buy from them until you gain experience and know just what to look for so you don't get taken. Should you ever desire to join this prestigeous group, I would consider it a great honor to support your nomination to the group. (I will have joined within the month--this will apply by then.) (Logo will be attached when I send to the students.) Just what you decide to collect will depend on what your tastes and desires are. There are those that collect hammers (a meteorite that has impacted (usually) a man made object, sush as a house, car, mail box, basketball court, fence corral, and a whole lotta stuff that I can't remember right now. Some collect spheres made from a meteorite, others collect the coins such as I showed you. There are famous falls (a fall is a witnessed fall of the meteorite) Weston, Cali. Carancas, Sikhote Alin, Allende and others. You can collect by State or by country. Then there are the Lunars (the Moon) and Martians (Mars) and the asteroids (4 Vesta). The science is still out, but there may be Mercurian meteorites in the near future. There is a bewildering array of classifications to choose from. You can collect micros (very small-up to about 1/2 gram size), slices, complete individuals, thin sections--- some you can see thru). There are NWA's (Northwest Africa) NEA's Northeast Africa There are the meteorites and then the meteorite related--Bediasites, impact shatter cones, mesosiderites and Tektites. Thanks in advance for any and all help with this. Pete __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD Availble for Trade
List, I've added a few more pieces, including a framed piece (though the photograph of it is not so good at the moment). Working on getting more excess material out there soon... http://www.fallingrocks.com/trade.htm Best, Dave Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation
topic: grading system for orientation just trying to get things started off here. i don't believe there should be 10-grades of orientation, as was suggested, as it seems too broad and results in a situation that is similar to the one before us: the too-liberal invocation of the term. might i suggest a scale of O1-O4 or perhaps to O5 at the most. it would seem the determination of the extent of orientation should be based on the presence of a number of specific characteristics and the extent to which such characteristics are manifest. i beseech the input of scientists who are expert in eliminating the ambiguities in such a grading system. let's start with some characteristics of orientation that come to mind evidence of ablation presence of flow lines/rivulets flow lines radiating in all directions off a single coordinate elongated parallel regmaglypts radiating off a single coordinate distinctly different morphologies of the obverse and reverse evidence of bubbling in the low-pressure zone (reverse) parabolic curvature of lead face (including small parabolas at tip of oriented bullets) lipped edges and evidence of molten material having ablated over the edge of such lips please add or subtract to the list. maybe some characteristics should be weighted more than others and then there is the quandary of quantifying the extent of such characteristics. i hope this helps to start things off. and i hope we're able to get this resolved and getoriented on orientation. all best / d, __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Oriented meteorites and their flow lines
Bob List, In light of this now-interesting debate and discussion re: orientation, I went ahead and posted another image of the anterior face with its perimeter-encircling rollover lip: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Millbillillie.htm Thanks, by the way, for raising a question without getting over-emotional as if it were sweeps week for the top soap operas ;-) I also appreciate your kind words re: the site itself. By the way, if this one is not oriented, I have a lot of editing to do in my catalog... All best, Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Loeffler Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:51 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Oriented meteorites and their flow lines Hi all, I know what orientation is and can spot it when it's obvious, but sometimes I just don't see it like some of you. I'm still a newbie, so I don't have the experience yet, but when I look at some pictures on the web, I see some signs of it but they don't truly tell me that this meteorite is definitely oriented. I don't want this to sound like I'm going after Dave G., because I'm not. I think it's great what he is doing for educating the public and especially the kids. But I saw one of his pictures on his website and I'm trying to figure out how the meteorite was oriented in flight. The picture is of a Millbillillie (who the heck named that place, anyway!) and you can see it in his wonderful collection at: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Millbillillie.htm The flow lines on the side facing us look good, so I can see the orientation, but if you look just above that on the ridge and then down the other side of the ridge, the flow lines are going in all directions. Shouldn't they mostly be moving away from the point or area that was leading in flight? Could this meteorite have been oriented for a while and then moved one way or another so it has a new orientation (and therefore the flow lines would also go in a different direction)? Or am I not reading it correctly? :-) Thanks and regards, Bob __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation
mmhhmm... quick stab as a result of a lack of tumbling and corkscrewing through the atmosphere (the result of the object's mass, distribution of mass and angle of entry), the object maintains a somewhat stable horizontal and vertical axis during its plunge through the atmosphere, resulting markedly different characterics on its obverse and reverse. On Mar 5, 2008, at 9:52 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Darryl List, I'd add a point for consideration, and that is the question what are we talking about when we say a meteorite is oriented? By this I mean that, at least from one perspective, the fundamental definition of an oriented meteorite is that it made it's violent passage through out atmosphere in a fixed (non-tumbling) position. As I mentioned somewhere in the series of yesterdays discussion on orientation, we're talking a few second of flight in the shaping environment (i.e. the atomsphere). Perfect orientation is often taken to mean that a perfect nose cone with a flat trailing face was created in the process. But it could also be taken to mean that the meteoroid never tumbled at all, and the original shape of the object as well as its composition, it often seems, has a significant impact on the resultant shape (in other words, in flight the meteoroid was perfectly oriented but perhaps the resultant shape is not perfect). It is a great thing that you've started this process by virtue of yesterday's dialogue, and hopefully we can emerge with something quantifiable through the process... Thanks, Dave Original Message Subject: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation From: Darryl Pitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, March 05, 2008 9:27 am To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com topic: grading system for orientation just trying to get things started off here. i don't believe there should be 10-grades of orientation, as was suggested, as it seems too broad and results in a situation that is similar to the one before us: the too-liberal invocation of the term. might i suggest a scale of O1-O4 or perhaps to O5 at the most. it would seem the determination of the extent of orientation should be based on the presence of a number of specific characteristics and the extent to which such characteristics are manifest. i beseech the input of scientists who are expert in eliminating the ambiguities in such a grading system. let's start with some characteristics of orientation that come to mind evidence of ablation presence of flow lines/rivulets flow lines radiating in all directions off a single coordinate elongated parallel regmaglypts radiating off a single coordinate distinctly different morphologies of the obverse and reverse evidence of bubbling in the low-pressure zone (reverse) parabolic curvature of lead face (including small parabolas at tip of oriented bullets) lipped edges and evidence of molten material having ablated over the edge of such lips please add or subtract to the list. maybe some characteristics should be weighted more than others and then there is the quandary of quantifying the extent of such characteristics. i hope this helps to start things off. and i hope we're able to get this resolved and getoriented on orientation. all best / d, __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] 13 Planetary and More Ending Today - AD
Dear List Members, Starting a little later today, I have 94 meteorite auctions ending, most of which started at just 99 cents and others with starting points with great values. There is everything from Super-Rare Achondrites, Falls, NWA's and even a few unclassified stones, along with Wholesale Lots. All these can be found under my eBay seller name, NaturesVault, or by clicking here: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault Here are some highlights to point out a few (somewhat long list but groups together special meteorites and worth the look!): Planetary Highlights: NWA 2995 Lunar 17.4g Complete Slice (Buy it Now - or Offer if does not sell) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030810852ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 482 Lunar (A beauty!0 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030812472ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 998 Martian Nakhlite http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197581562ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NWA 1068 Martian Complete Slice 3.286g http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197578265ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NWA 1068 Martian Slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197582494ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NWA 1195 Martian Slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030817358ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 1195 Replica http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197584184ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NWA 3136 Lunar http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030830568ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 3160 Part Slice 678mg (Buy it Now) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197578567ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NWA 3160 Lunar http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197595545ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NWA 3163 Lunar Part Slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030834981ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 3171 Martian Part Slice 478mg (Buy it Now) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030809930ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 3171 Martian http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030835388ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 4468 Martian (Gorgeous!!) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030835745ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 4930 Martian Individual 212mg http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030838634ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 Dhofar 019 Martian Thin Slice 276mg http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197599567ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NEA 001 Lunar (Getting Hard to Get and Running Out) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197599949ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 Angrite Highlights (A Mercury Connection?)(99 cent start and some with Buy it Now): NWA 4801 Angrite Slice 484mg AWESOME!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030810161ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 4801 Angrite Slice 342mg Also AWESOME! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030810441ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 2999 47mg NICE http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030829249ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 NWA 4590 Tamassint 44mg FANTASTIC! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030838044ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 Brachinite Highlights: NWA 3151 Thin Section #1 (has Buy it Now) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197578423ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NWA 3151 Part Slice (still at just 99 cents) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197594791ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 NWA 3151 Thin Section #2 (has Buy it Now) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197594923ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 Some Fall Highlights: Amgala (Oum Dreyga) 136.6g Polished End Cut http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030807667ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 Amgala (Oum Dreyga) 195g Polished End Cut http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030807826ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 Bassikounou Individual 9g http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030839165ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 Bassikounou Individual 92.4g http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030808126ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 Gao from Robert Haag Collection 154g http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030808346ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 Erg Chech Mali Individual 601g (Last One) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=350030808866ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=022 Oum Dreyga (Amgala) Individual 18.1g http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=170197578104ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=007 In addition to these Ultra-Rare offerings, I also have ending a variety of other Achondrites, Stony-Irons, LL Chondrites, NWA 869 Individuals and 1-kilo lots. Too many to list here. I hope you enjoy bidding and/or looking!
[meteorite-list] papers dealing with meteorite orientation
for those working on the subject the literature below may be of use. 1,2 and 4 cover certain aspects of the subject, 3 and 5 offer an approach to the matter istself. I am sure there are other valuable sources. 1. Bronshtehn, V. A.: Fragmentation and crushing of large meteoric bodies in an atmosphere. In: Sol. Syst. Res., Vol. 29, No. 5, p. 392 - 399 2. Rietmeijer, F. J. M.; MacKinnon, I. D. R.: Melting, ablation, and vapor phase condensation during atmospheric passage of the Bjurbole meteorite. In: (American Geophysical Union and NASA, Lunar and Planetary Science Conference, 14th, Houston, TX, Mar. 14-18, 1983) Journal of Geophysical Research, Supplement (ISSN 0148-0227), vol. 89, Feb. 15, 1984, p. B597-B604. 3. Nininger, Harvey Harlow: Meteorites: A photographic study of surface features and commentary. Part 2: Orientation. Tempe : Center for Meteorite Studies, Arizona State University, c1977 4. Fisher, W. J: Mass and Velocity of Meteorites and the Air Density Along Their Luminous Paths. In: Harvard College Observatory Circular, vol. 385, pp.1-16 5. Haidinger, W.: Eine Leitform der Meteoriten. With 2 plates. In: Sitzungsberichte der mathem.-naturwissenschaftlichen Classe. Vol. XL, Vienna 1860 Cheers Svend -- www.meteorite-recon.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] 66 pound campo for sale- free shipping
i have a 66 pound campo for sale. i comes with a nice base made of fl. keys mahogany. this is a nice display piece for public venues or homes. this rock is BIG and HEAVY and is too big for me to move. it WILL, however fit in a FLAT-RATE priority box. i am open for all reasonable offers. THIS IS A U.S. sale only- no foreign shipping. if i accept your offer(s) i will SHIP THIS TO YOU FOR FREE. if the p.o. changes the flat-rate policy b4 it is sold the deal is void (unless you want to pay shipping). no trades (accept big FL, GA skyrox, peekskill, park forest), just cash, cheques (must clear), (or paypal if you want to pay the fees). all reasonable offers appreciated. pix avail. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] 66 pound campo FREE SHIPPING on eBAY
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=290211990735 here it is. if you want to make offer, i will kill this auction. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation
Great suggestions, Darryl. I would go even a little less complicated and suggest a 3 number rating system. Here are some quick, nut-shell definitions: O3 - Completely oriented: Obvious and conclusive evidence that the meteorite stabilized during entire flight. O2 - Partially Oriented: Evidence that the meteorite stabilized during most of flight, but also tumbled of axis. O1 - Some Orientation: Evidence that the meteorite stabilized briefly at one or several different points during flight, but tumbled majority of flight. No Orientation - If no orientation is present, then there is probably no need to mention it in description. Other considerations: Where does 'dual orientation' fit in? I have had numerous Sikhotes that have had 'bullets' or 'buttons' on both ends - evidence that the they flopped like a pancake and partially stabilized on both opposing edges. Keep the suggestions coming. Best, Mike Bandli www.Astro-Artifacts.com -- Original message -- From: Darryl Pitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] topic: grading system for orientation just trying to get things started off here. i don't believe there should be 10-grades of orientation, as was suggested, as it seems too broad and results in a situation that is similar to the one before us: the too-liberal invocation of the term. might i suggest a scale of O1-O4 or perhaps to O5 at the most. it would seem the determination of the extent of orientation should be based on the presence of a number of specific characteristics and the extent to which such characteristics are manifest. i beseech the input of scientists who are expert in eliminating the ambiguities in such a grading system. let's start with some characteristics of orientation that come to mind evidence of ablation presence of flow lines/rivulets flow lines radiating in all directions off a single coordinate elongated parallel regmaglypts radiating off a single coordinate distinctly different morphologies of the obverse and reverse evidence of bubbling in the low-pressure zone (reverse) parabolic curvature of lead face (including small parabolas at tip of oriented bullets) lipped edges and evidence of molten material having ablated over the edge of such lips please add or subtract to the list. maybe some characteristics should be weighted more than others and then there is the quandary of quantifying the extent of such characteristics. i hope this helps to start things off. and i hope we're able to get this resolved and getoriented on orientation. all best / d, __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation
Great Idea, We have weathering grades and this should be just as simple. Im currently busy w/ business at my desk but will add my thoughts regarding the parameters of grading later today. This seems long overdue to me. Bob E. -- Original message -- From: Darryl Pitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] topic: grading system for orientation just trying to get things started off here. i don't believe there should be 10-grades of orientation, as was suggested, as it seems too broad and results in a situation that is similar to the one before us: the too-liberal invocation of the term. might i suggest a scale of O1-O4 or perhaps to O5 at the most. it would seem the determination of the extent of orientation should be based on the presence of a number of specific characteristics and the extent to which such characteristics are manifest. i beseech the input of scientists who are expert in eliminating the ambiguities in such a grading system. let's start with some characteristics of orientation that come to mind evidence of ablation presence of flow lines/rivulets flow lines radiating in all directions off a single coordinate elongated parallel regmaglypts radiating off a single coordinate distinctly different morphologies of the obverse and reverse evidence of bubbling in the low-pressure zone (reverse) parabolic curvature of lead face (including small parabolas at tip of oriented bullets) lipped edges and evidence of molten material having ablated over the edge of such lips please add or subtract to the list. maybe some characteristics should be weighted more than others and then there is the quandary of quantifying the extent of such characteristics. i hope this helps to start things off. and i hope we're able to get this resolved and getoriented on orientation. all best / d, __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD ; NWA sale - Al haggounia
Dear list members, I have for sale a 100kg of alhagounia find, the cheapeset price, only good pieces. if you are interested please email me off list to show you how the material is good. offers are welcome. The best as ever Aziz Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] [AD] Oscar Monnig Catalog Update + Tucson EZ-Guide
Dear Listees: Greetings all. I am pleased to report that our Oscar E. Monnig Meteorite Collection Catalog project is finally complete. We have the custom slipcases, exclusive Oscar Monnig portrait photos, and Dr. Art Ehlmann's signed and numbered editions here in the Aerolite office and we are currently in the process of shipping all orders. We experienced a significant delay receiving our slipcases, as they had to be specially manufactured to my specifications, and I do apologize for that. They are lovely and well worth the wait. Thank you all for your patience. Many of you have reserved copies but not yet paid for them. Please send me payment ASAP so I don't have to send out invoices to everyone. I still have a few signed and numbered copies available, and a good number of regular and slipcase editions. Details regarding the different versions of the book, and how to order and send payment can be found here: http://www.aerolite.org/monnig-catalog.htm If you sent me an email inquiry with specific questions, I'll be replying separately. In other news: those of you who ordered copies of the meteorite special feature article by Lisa Marie Morrison published in the 2008 Tucson EZ-Guide will also be receiving your copies shortly. My sincere appreciation to everyone who has supported our Monnig Catalog publishing venture. This is the first meteorite museum catalog to be published since the year 2000 and -- in terms of photographs and historic documents -- it is one of the most comprehensive in history. It is the result of many years of work by two of the great names in the meteorite world: Dr. Arthur Ehlmann and David New. With best wishes, Geoff N. www.aerolite.org www.campometeorites.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation
Hello Mike and all, Mike, I like your suggestion. Obviously, a large contributing factor in a the final shape of a meteorite, has to do with it's original shape of the rock before the fireball (or as it broke apart in flight). Some rocks are just destined to look better (more nosecone or shielded in shape) than others. But that gets more into subjective interpretation. One challenge is that composition and weathering can play a part in the appearance of a meteorite. The Brenham Main Mass, while few would argue is not oriented, does not have flow lines, or a roll over lip. The trailing side is noticeably more rough than the nosecone, as it was not melted, but there is not frothy evidence of bubbling on in the low pressure zones on the back side. So, while it would not have ALL 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 potential characteristics of being oriented, the evidence points that it indeed was 100% oriented in it's flight, thus producing the shape it is in now, less a bit of wathering. Also, I am not sure that a large pallasite would have the same ability as a Eucrite would have in displaying the different potential characteristics? So would the Big Brenham get a lower grade than a strange shaped Millbillillie that might have more characteristics, yet not look even close to what one thinks an oriented meteorite should be? I think there are some characteristics that lead to a definite conclusion that the rock did not tumble in flight. I think if a dealer, or collector wants to represent their meteorite specimen as oriented, they need to justify why they think it is, base on the accepted criteria. Then it is up to the observer/buyer to evaluate the quality of those characteristics. Not all flowlines are the same. Not all roll over lips are the same. Not all frothy crust on the trailing side is the same. Not all curvature of leading edge is the same. Are we going to then grade each charateristic on a scale of 1 to 5? A description might then look like this. Based on the IMCA 4-Point Scale of Orientation' this rock grades at a 2.25 out of 5 as follows: Characteristic A: Flowlines Scale 1-5 = 4 note: flowlines over 60% of the rock All from a radiant point Characteristic B: Roll Over Lip Scale 1-5 = 2 note: Mild roll over lip on 25% of the edge Characteristic C: Parabolic Curve Scale 1-5 = 3 note: curvature is on a 280* curve on X axis, 264* on Y axis Characteristic D: Bubbling trailing side Scale 1-5 = 1 somewhat different texture on the back side Total 4+2+3+1 = 9 / 4 = 2.25 Or, you do like Mike Farmer mentioned, you call it oriented, and you supply 16 photographs to back up your point. Or, you say, like Mike suggested: O3, O2 or O1, Completely, Partially, or Some, and justify why. My two flowlines worth. Maybe we should set up a Crater grading scale while we are at it? Steve Arnold Arkansas . In a message dated 3/5/2008 11:17:41 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Great suggestions, Darryl. I would go even a little less complicated and suggest a 3 number rating system. Here are some quick, nut-shell definitions: O3 - Completely oriented: Obvious and conclusive evidence that the meteorite stabilized during entire flight. O2 - Partially Oriented: Evidence that the meteorite stabilized during most of flight, but also tumbled of axis. O1 - Some Orientation: Evidence that the meteorite stabilized briefly at one or several different points during flight, but tumbled majority of flight. No Orientation - If no orientation is present, then there is probably no need to mention it in description. Other considerations: Where does 'dual orientation' fit in? I have had numerous Sikhotes that have had 'bullets' or 'buttons' on both ends - evidence that the they flopped like a pancake and partially stabilized on both opposing edges. Keep the suggestions coming. Best, Mike Bandli www.Astro-Artifacts.com **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation
Steve List, I just sent the following to Darryl off line, as we've been discussing this issue with great interest, and thought I'd add it here because it coincidentally makes very similar points (we very much agree) but with perhaps a little different perspective: Darryl, Here are the problems, in my opinion, with the simplicity of that 0-1-2-3 formula: First, freshness of the specimen can have a lot to do with several of the parameters, and just because a stone is weathered does not mean it's necessarily not completely oriented. Second, a specimen's flight can be completely oriented but, due to the initial shape and composition of the meteoroid, it might not be a perfect nose cone. Frankly, again in my opinion, the object of much debate yesterday is completely oriented but was affected by these parameters (meaning largely by the second point and slightly by the first point, as it is very fresh but was obviously not picked up the day it fell). If you missed the extra photos, check this out: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/NWAXXXb.htm I don't care what the final analysis is on this specimen, by the way, and am only using it as a frame of reference. If you saw that Kainsaz specimen (will link it below as well), even it introduces some interesting challenges to the current working formula though it is obviously completely oriented: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Kainsaz.htm How one would provide for differentiation between this Kainsaz and, say, Lafayette based on a completely or partially oriented grading system, I am not sure. Layfayette is obviously fresher, has all sorts of flow lines and is a perfect dome, but they are both completely oriented in terms of flight and the resultant shape they both achieved. This will be fun to sort out, and I hope we get it to the finish line! Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 3:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation Hello Mike and all, Mike, I like your suggestion. Obviously, a large contributing factor in a the final shape of a meteorite, has to do with it's original shape of the rock before the fireball (or as it broke apart in flight). Some rocks are just destined to look better (more nosecone or shielded in shape) than others. But that gets more into subjective interpretation. One challenge is that composition and weathering can play a part in the appearance of a meteorite. The Brenham Main Mass, while few would argue is not oriented, does not have flow lines, or a roll over lip. The trailing side is noticeably more rough than the nosecone, as it was not melted, but there is not frothy evidence of bubbling on in the low pressure zones on the back side. So, while it would not have ALL 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 potential characteristics of being oriented, the evidence points that it indeed was 100% oriented in it's flight, thus producing the shape it is in now, less a bit of wathering. Also, I am not sure that a large pallasite would have the same ability as a Eucrite would have in displaying the different potential characteristics? So would the Big Brenham get a lower grade than a strange shaped Millbillillie that might have more characteristics, yet not look even close to what one thinks an oriented meteorite should be? I think there are some characteristics that lead to a definite conclusion that the rock did not tumble in flight. I think if a dealer, or collector wants to represent their meteorite specimen as oriented, they need to justify why they think it is, base on the accepted criteria. Then it is up to the observer/buyer to evaluate the quality of those characteristics. Not all flowlines are the same. Not all roll over lips are the same. Not all frothy crust on the trailing side is the same. Not all curvature of leading edge is the same. Are we going to then grade each charateristic on a scale of 1 to 5? A description might then look like this. Based on the IMCA 4-Point Scale of Orientation' this rock grades at a 2.25 out of 5 as follows: Characteristic A: Flowlines Scale 1-5 = 4 note: flowlines over 60% of the rock All from a radiant point Characteristic B: Roll Over Lip Scale 1-5 = 2 note: Mild roll over lip on 25% of the edge Characteristic C: Parabolic Curve Scale 1-5 = 3 note: curvature is on a 280* curve on X axis, 264* on Y axis Characteristic D: Bubbling trailing side Scale 1-5 = 1 somewhat different texture on the back side Total 4+2+3+1 = 9 / 4 = 2.25 Or, you do like Mike Farmer mentioned, you call it oriented, and you supply 16 photographs to back up your point. Or, you say, like Mike suggested: O3, O2 or O1, Completely, Partially, or Some, and justify why. My two flowlines worth. Maybe we should set up a
[meteorite-list] Fwd: getting oriented on orientation
as previously mentioned, some of the guidelines used to establish
orientation should be weighted more heavily than others.
when a stone is weathered, the only way to determine a high degree of
orientation would still be the reliance on the same conventions to
determine the extent of orientation.
for examplea highly weathered meteorite's morphology exhibits an
unmistakably curved parabolic surface, e.g., brenham main mass. of
course that should trump everything---the object is inarguably highly
oriented.
bottom line, if you can't discern for certain whether the specimen is
oriented per agreed upon guidelines, then you can't state the object
is oriented. it's that simple. ('tis frustrating to me when folks
mention that willamette is oriented. could have been. but it's
unverifiable. so it's not.)
in effect, what is implied with orientation is that if all of the
characteristics which denote orientation are weathered away, no
determination of orientation can or should be made on the most highly
weathered material. right?
all best / darryl
Begin forwarded message:
From: Dave Gheesling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: March 5, 2008 3:23:19 PM EST
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Steve List,
I just sent the following to Darryl off line, as we've been
discussing this
issue with great interest, and thought I'd add it here because it
coincidentally makes very similar points (we very much agree) but with
perhaps a little different perspective:
Darryl,
Here are the problems, in my opinion, with the simplicity of that
0-1-2-3
formula:
First, freshness of the specimen can have a lot to do with several
of the
parameters, and just because a stone is weathered does not mean it's
necessarily not completely oriented.
Second, a specimen's flight can be completely oriented but, due
to the
initial shape and composition of the meteoroid, it might not be a
perfect
nose cone. Frankly, again in my opinion, the object of much debate
yesterday is completely oriented but was affected by these
parameters
(meaning largely by the second point and slightly by the first
point, as it
is very fresh but was obviously not picked up the day it fell). If
you
missed the extra photos, check this out:
http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/NWAXXXb.htm
I don't care what the final analysis is on this specimen, by the
way, and am
only using it as a frame of reference. If you saw that Kainsaz
specimen
(will link it below as well), even it introduces some interesting
challenges
to the current working formula though it is obviously completely
oriented:
http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Kainsaz.htm
How one would provide for differentiation between this Kainsaz and,
say,
Lafayette based on a completely or partially oriented grading
system, I
am not sure. Layfayette is obviously fresher, has all sorts of
flow lines
and is a perfect dome, but they are both completely oriented in
terms of
flight and the resultant shape they both achieved.
This will be fun to sort out, and I hope we get it to the finish line!
Dave
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 3:17 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] getting oriented on orientation
Hello Mike and all,
Mike, I like your suggestion.
Obviously, a large contributing factor in a the final shape of a
meteorite,
has to do with it's original shape of the rock before the fireball
(or as
it
broke apart in flight). Some rocks are just destined to look
better (more
nosecone or shielded in shape) than others. But that gets more into
subjective
interpretation.
One challenge is that composition and weathering can play a part
in the
appearance of a meteorite.
The Brenham Main Mass, while few would argue is not oriented, does
not have
flow lines, or a roll over lip. The trailing side is noticeably
more rough
than the nosecone, as it was not melted, but there is not frothy
evidence
of
bubbling on in the low pressure zones on the back side.
So, while it would not have ALL 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 potential
characteristics
of being oriented, the evidence points that it indeed was 100%
oriented in
it's flight, thus producing the shape it is in now, less a bit of
wathering.
Also, I am not sure that a large pallasite would have the same
ability as a
Eucrite would have in displaying the different potential
characteristics?
So would the Big Brenham get a lower grade than a strange shaped
Millbillillie that might have more characteristics, yet not look
even close
to what
one thinks an oriented meteorite should be?
I think there are some characteristics that
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: getting oriented on orientation
Darryl and All,
I think we all are frustrated when a rounded rocks (or even chunky not even
crusted fragments) are called oriented. It wastes time as we look for why
in the world it would be called oriented and it makes us wonder If they
will lie about that, what else are they lying about?
Maybe the solution is a list very similar to the one you gave, posted at the
IMCA website explaining what Oriented means, and how to self-diagnose an
oriented meteorite. A statement that all IMCA members agree to accurately
describe their meteorites could be given that page, and as such are obligated
to qualify any specimen as being oriented according to the guidelines set
forth.
A simple asterisk* in a description, could lead the reader to a note at the
bottom of the description to go to the IMCA website for further elaboration on
the explanation of what Oriented means. That way paragraphs don't have
to be wasted on explaining everything, every time. Of course if one wanted
to explain everything, it would be fine, and in some case worth the effort
when selling a valuable specimen.
I think if everyone started referencing a certain stated list of qualifiers,
then it would be far harder for charlatans to slide in and take advantage of
people. It would be very hard for a person to reference the listed
characteristics of an oriented meteorite, then at the same time sell a rock
that does
not meet ANY of those he just referenced.
Doing field work I run into people all the time, who have found a rock that
does not attract a magnet, that automatically think that qualifies the rock to
be an even more valuable achondrite, probably a moon rock. So, they got
the info SOMEWHERE that ~95% of meteorites will attract a magnet, but 5%
won't.
Having a posting, somewhere, I suggest the IMCA website, that defines what
an oriented meteorite is, will probably take care of most of our problems.
Then it still leaves it up to the individual to evaluate if a particular
specimen is oriented or not, and if so, to what degree.
In reality, there are so many other factors that contribute to the bottom
line value of a meteorite, not just if it is oriented or not. Some of those
are:
Type of meteorite
Size of the meteorite
TKW of the fall
aesthetics of the specimen
condition
weathering
broken pieces
% of crust
etc.
How a particular person will value the various above factors will strongly
effect the value of a particular rock.
If sellers and buyers alike, have a place to reference what are
characteristics of an oriented meteorite, I think that is the best we can do.
Trying to
subjectively grade a meteorite is going to be hard.
Then if anyone goes against those standards, then we can call them on it.
Now, does anyone want to build a list of how to grade a crater???
Then we can move on to making a scale of how Rare a certain meteorite is!
Steve Arnold
Arkansas
In a message dated 3/5/2008 3:14:56 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
as previously mentioned, some of the guidelines used to establish
orientation should be weighted more heavily than others.
when a stone is weathered, the only way to determine a high degree of
orientation would still be the reliance on the same conventions to
determine the extent of orientation.
for examplea highly weathered meteorite's morphology exhibits an
unmistakably curved parabolic surface, e.g., brenham main mass. of
course that should trump everything---the object is inarguably highly
oriented.
bottom line, if you can't discern for certain whether the specimen is
oriented per agreed upon guidelines, then you can't state the object
is oriented. it's that simple. ('tis frustrating to me when folks
mention that willamette is oriented. could have been. but it's
unverifiable. so it's not.)
in effect, what is implied with orientation is that if all of the
characteristics which denote orientation are weathered away, no
determination of orientation can or should be made on the most highly
weathered material. right?
all best / darryl
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[meteorite-list] TRADE OFFER (AD)
Hello list.Short and sweet!I have a 1892 $10 gold piece I will trade for meteorites.If interested please email me off list.Thanks for your time. Steve R.Arnold,chicago,Ill,Usa!! The Asteroid Belt! http://chicagometeorites.net/ Collecting Meteorites since 06/19/1999 Ebay I.D. Illinoismeteorites Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: getting oriented on orientation
In a message dated 3/5/2008 2:52:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darryl and All, I think we all are frustrated when a rounded rocks (or even chunky not even crusted fragments) are called oriented. It wastes time as we look for why in the world it would be called oriented and it makes us wonder If they will lie about that, what else are they lying about? Maybe the solution is a list very similar to the one you gave, posted at the IMCA website explaining what Oriented means, and how to self-diagnose an oriented meteorite. A statement that all IMCA members agree to accurately describe their meteorites could be given that page, and as such are obligated to qualify any specimen as being oriented according to the guidelines set forth. -- Thank you Steve for thinking of the IMCA. After discussing it with Norbert Classen (HE is the President!!), we agreed that this kind of project could have its place on the IMCA website. But I believe that the whole idea could be even improved on. What I suggest would be a Glossary of terms used in connection with meteorites, with a short simple explanation of each one of these terms. Orientation as it is discussed today is just one example, there could also be other terms like the names of the different classification (eucrite, diogenite, pallasite,etc) including the new ones (like metachondrite!) or basic ones like regmaglypt or fusion crust. Those are just examples. It would help new collectors. I do know that such a Glossary does exist already on the NAU website: _http://www4.nau.edu/meteorite/index.html_ (http://www4.nau.edu/meteorite/index.html) . Thank you Drs. Ted and Jim. It is a very good, very complete resource that everybody should know. But I am thinking of something much simpler, oriented (I couldn't help it!) toward new collectors. Any comments? Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. www.IMCA.cc **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - After-Tucson Update.
Hello everybody, I finally got (mostly) caught up with all the Tucson Show chaos. Of course this year it was a bit more chaotic than usual (thank you for all your emails), but it is time to get back to work. I did manage to do some shopping while in Tucson, and I just finished adding over 70 new pieces to my website. All kinds of pieces, from very classic like Quijingue, Tambo Quemado, or Zagami, to rare like Garabato, or in exclusivity like Lorenzo or Santa Rosa. And 2 ultra-rare meteorites (with excellent documentation) from New Zealand: Mokoia and Wairarapa Valley. Or simply odd, like olivine from Vaca Muerta. And I still have a dozen or so pieces to add. Plus some very pretty jewelry, and great Libyan Desert Glass pieces (No, I didn't get it from Mike). Please go take a look. As usual, all the new pieces are written in red so you can spot them quickly. Most of them have pictures attached, but not all of them, I am still working on that!! http://www.impactika.com/Metlist.htm Any questions, please do let me know. Thank you! Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. www.IMCA.cc **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Intro Email
I am putting together an email that will introduce two of my Junior High students to the wonderful and bizzare world of the -TA TAH- meteorite collectior. Please read and feel free to offer any sugestions. Please let me know if I've left out any important info or need to include something. Any or all of this can be freely used in any way deemed useful by others. THIS IS THE CORRECTED VERSION Some terms to learn. A METEORID is a METEORITE that is still in space. Some meteorites come from an ASTEROID, or very rarely maybe from a comet. Realistically, meteoroids, asteroids, and comets are different things (even though an asteroid or comet could become a meteor, and therefore be considered a meteoroid, such an event is happily very rare).[1] The streak of light as it enters earth's atmosphere is called a METEOR. The ball of light and smoke as the meteor explodes into many fragments is called a FIREBALL. Sometimes it is called a BOLIDE. What actually hits the ground is a METEORITE. Collectors refer to themselves as collectors. People who study meteors or meteorites scientifically are called meteoriticists. Some collectors are meteoriticists, but not all. Similarly, not all meteoriticists are collectors.[2] The following link will set you up to receive Meteorite list emails. I urge you to join this as there is much to be gained and learned from the many experts as well as the newbies. Questions are answered (sometimes more answers than you need at the time). Like any group, there are squables, but even in the midst of these, there are things to be learned. http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list If you go to Ebay to buy, look for the Logo of the IMCA. Attached is a picture of the logo. You can ask the seller if he is a member. If they are not a member, do not buy from them until you gain experience and know just what to look for so you don't get taken. Should you ever desire to join this prestigeous group, I would consider it a great honor to support your nomination to the group. (I will have joined within the month--this will apply by then.) Just what you decide to collect will depend on what your tastes and desires are. There are those that collect hammers (a meteorite that has impacted (usually) a man made object, sush as a house, car, mail box, basketball court, fence corral, and a whole lotta stuff that I can't remember right now. Some collect spheres made from a meteorite, others collect the coins such as I showed you. There are famous falls (a fall is a witnessed fall of the meteorite) Weston, Cali. Carancas, Sikhote Alin, Allende and others. You can collect by State or by country. Then there are the Lunars (the Moon) and Martians (Mars) and the asteroids (4 Vesta). The science is still out, but there may be Mercurian meteorites in the near future. There is a bewildering array of classifications to choose from. You can collect micros (very small-up to about 1/2 gram), slices, complete individuals, thin sections--- some you can see thru). There are NWA's (Northwest Africa) NEA's Northeast Africa There are the meteorites and then the meteorite related--Bediasites, impact shatter cones, and Tektites. [1] The preceeding sentence is a quote from Chris Peterson. [2] The preceeding sentence is a quote from Chris Peterson. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
