Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 111, Issue 29

[James Masny]

Great pictures Greg and Mike.  Good luck to all out there hunting!
Jim

> On 9/21/12, Greg Hup?  wrote:
>> Dear List Members,
>>
>> I would like to share my eight days of hunting at Battle Mountain by way of
>>
>> a web page built by my very talented friend, Michael Johnson!
>>
>> Enjoy!
>> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/BATTLE-MOUNTAIN.html
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Greg
>>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Large UK fireball!

[drtanuki]

Rob, Martin,  That video seems very familiar...it may be a recycled video?  I 
am not 100% certain.  Best Regards,  Dirk Ross...Tokyo

--- On Sat, 9/22/12, Matson, Robert D.  wrote:

> From: Matson, Robert D. 
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large UK fireball!
> To: "Martin Goff" 
> Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Saturday, September 22, 2012, 8:54 AM
> Hi Martin,
> 
> Given the east-to-west direction, space junk is extremely
> unlikely.
> (Very few manmade objects in such retrograde orbits.)
> 
> Unfortunately, from your description it sounds like it most
> likely
> ended up going over Southport into the Irish Sea southeast
> of the
> Isle of Man. Your location is less than 60 km from the
> coast.
> 
> --Rob
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com]
> On Behalf Of Martin
> Goff
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 4:44 PM
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Large UK fireball!
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I have just been exceedingly fortunate to view a large
> fragmenting
> fireball over the UK. Absolutely amazing sight! Looked so
> similar to
> Peekskill with lots of fragmentation. Am unfortunately at
> work all night
> so unable to further research it but already there are
> numerous reports
> and sightings. A video of the event has been found here:
> 
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df89jhMjLXY)
> 
> Might be space junk? The fireball had a definite greenish
> tinge at the
> beginning.
> 
> Going east to west. from the A627 in Chadderton, Oldham,
> Lancashire.
> Startpoint 25 degrees altitude, 90 degrees azimuth. Endpoint
> 20 degrees
> altitude, 290 degrees azimuth. visible for 40 seconds at
> 22:55hrs
> 21/9/12. Went from green to orange to yellow with lots of
> fragmentation.
> Am still gobsmacked that i saw it Hopefully it will have
> dropped
> some meteorites and hopefully not into the sea!
> 
> Anyway back to work now :-(
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Martin
> --
> Martin Goff
> www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
> IMCA #3387
> __
> 
> Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> __
> 
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> 
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[meteorite-list] Space Shuttle Endeavour fly over

[Brien Cook]

Sacramento was one of the lucky cities to get a Shuttle Endeavour fly over 
today. I took this video from the roof of my office building. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0aNmteykjQ&list=UUGBRmlg0LLLwXfw_ccSoVWw&index=1&feature=plcp



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[meteorite-list] Dawn Sees Hydrated Minerals On Giant Asteroid

[Paul H.]

Dawn Sees Hydrated Minerals On Giant Asteroid
ScienceDaily, Sept. 20, 2012, 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120920202045.htm

Dawn Sees Hydrated Minerals on Giant Asteroid,
news release, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NSAS, 
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2012-297
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/dawn/news/dawn20120920.html

The papers are:

Prettyman, T. H., et al., 2012, Elemental Mapping by 
Dawn Reveals Exogenic H in Vesta's Regolith. 
Science. Published Online September 20, 2012
DOI: 10.1126/science.1225354
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2012/09/19/science.1225354

Denevi, B. W., et al., 2012, Pitted Terrain on Vesta 
and Implications for the Presence of Volatiles. Science.
Published Online September 20, 2012
DOI: 10.1126/science.1225374
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2012/09/19/science.1225374

Best wishes,

Paul H.
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[meteorite-list] US/Canada Fireball and Massive UK/Holland Bolide 21SEP2012

[drtanuki]

List,  Maps and details to be created/updated as possible.

US/Canada Fireball Over 30 reports
http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.jp/2012/09/ne-us-canada-bright-meteor-21sep2012.html

Massive UK/Holland Bolide 21SEP2012 over 500 reports
http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.jp/2012/09/breaking-uk-news-uk-holland-bolide.html

Dirk Ross...Tokyo
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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM

[Michael Mulgrew]

Hi, Jeff.  Thanks for the explanation of the process.  I guess I
should have completed my thought, as what I was trying to get as was
to not have people refer to this memo as a law since that is not what
it is.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Jeff Grossman  wrote:
>
> I am not an expert in this area, but the way I understand it, the Code of 
> Federal Regulations, which have the force of law, grant certain agencies 
> regulatory authority in certain areas.  The new BLM policy cites the sections 
> of the CFR under which they are claiming authority to regulate the collection 
> of meteorites on public lands.
>
> I am not a lawyer, and I could not attempt to assess whether BLM's 
> applications of the CFR to meteorites would stand up in court. Nor do I wish 
> to comment on whether I think the policy they implemented is wise. But I 
> don't think they are exceeding the authority granted to them under US law to 
> make such policies in general.
>
> So BLM is not writing laws... they regulating under the law.
>
> At least that's how I understand it.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 9/21/2012 1:39 PM, Michael Mulgrew wrote:
>>
>> As I understand it, this new memo from the BLM is not a law.  Last I
>> checked the BLM does not have the power to write laws.
>>
>> Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Doug Achim  wrote:
>>>
>>> I live in Southern New Mexico. I ran about 100 sections, part of a larger
>>> ranch for a little over 5 years( 1999 to 2004) The part I ran was almost all
>>> classified as Wilderness Study Area (WSA). Look up the rules for WSA. The
>>> only time there was anyone in the area that was not there to visit me was
>>> hunting season. The hunters drove all over off road , left their camps a
>>> mess when they left, generally trashed the place. I begged the BLM to come
>>> bust somebody so I could spread the word and maybe get everyone to follow
>>> the rules. Never once did a BLM person show up during the 5 years, except
>>> some old volutiers and all they did was drive around and sometimes pick up
>>> some trash. In 2004 there was one BLM Agent ( The ones who carry guns) to
>>> cover all of southern New Mexico. Border Patrol was a different matter.
>>> There were more Border Patrol on the ranch daily than illegals passed
>>> through yearly. They mostly were hunting arrowheads, shooting rabbits, or
>>>   picnicking. I collect arrowheads. I have all the laws concerning
>>> artifacts in the binder made up for my files. ARPA laws state in is not
>>> againt the law to pick up arrowheads on the surface. ( ARPA was passed in
>>> 1979, Jimmy Crater was the president and he was an arrowhead collector). He
>>> refused to sign ARPA stating that he did not some Boy Scout arrested for
>>> picking an arrowhead up. So it was changed to exclude arrowhead hunting,
>>> only arrowheads nothing else, and that is stated a couple places in the law.
>>> I had a friend in another BLM area got harassed by a BLM person, so I decide
>>> to check in person. There was not one person in the Las Cruces BLM office
>>> who could tell me anything except that you could not do it. It took me weeks
>>> to find the Agent, and he told me a lot of different things. The one that
>>> like was it was not against the law to pick up an arrowhead if you were
>>> working, hiking or whatever else on BLM land and found one. Where you were
>>>   breaking the law was if you went to the BLM land with the intent of
>>> looking for arrowheads. I had the law with me so I pulled out a copy of ARPA
>>> and ask him to show me where that was stated as I had read it numerous times
>>> and never seen any thing written like that. He did not read anything just
>>> stated that I was not a lawyer and probably to stupid to understand legal
>>> writing. I studied Animal Science, Business, and Civil Engineering, so I am
>>> maybe not as smart as a Federal employee, but I know how to read. Someone
>>> needs to have a lawyer friend really read the new meteorite law, including
>>> all the fine print, because the BLM people read the title and go from there,
>>> or they are trying to run you off an area so they can go back and hunt
>>> themselves. Another story about arrowheads and ARPA. I found a copy of the
>>> Forest Service laws on artifacts. It stated that it was against the the to
>>> pick up chipped stone projectiles ( arrowheads ). I contacted the
>>>   Forest Service and questioned it. They told me that ARPA was only a
>>> guideline for federal agencies to use to make their own regulations. I said
>>> so the Congress, Senate, and the President had studied, debated, and finally
>>> passed the law so some GS2 employee of the Forest Service could change to to
>>> what ever he wanted to. I have not seen the new laws but will track one down
>>> soon and have a judge friend of mine write an opionon and sent it to the
>>> list. Saludos Doug
>>> __
>>>
>>> Visit the Archives at
>>> http://www.mete

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM

[Jim Wooddell]

Jeff,
Correct.
Jim

Jim Wooddell - Mobile

Jeff Grossman  wrote:

>I am not an expert in this area, but the way I understand it, the Code 
>of Federal Regulations, which have the force of law, grant certain 
>agencies regulatory authority in certain areas.  The new BLM policy 
>cites the sections of the CFR under which they are claiming authority to 
>regulate the collection of meteorites on public lands.
>
>I am not a lawyer, and I could not attempt to assess whether BLM's 
>applications of the CFR to meteorites would stand up in court. Nor do I 
>wish to comment on whether I think the policy they implemented is wise. 
>But I don't think they are exceeding the authority granted to them under 
>US law to make such policies in general.
>
>So BLM is not writing laws... they regulating under the law.
>
>At least that's how I understand it.
>
>Jeff
>
>On 9/21/2012 1:39 PM, Michael Mulgrew wrote:
>> As I understand it, this new memo from the BLM is not a law.  Last I
>> checked the BLM does not have the power to write laws.
>>
>> Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Doug Achim  wrote:
>>> I live in Southern New Mexico. I ran about 100 sections, part of a larger
>>> ranch for a little over 5 years( 1999 to 2004) The part I ran was almost all
>>> classified as Wilderness Study Area (WSA). Look up the rules for WSA. The
>>> only time there was anyone in the area that was not there to visit me was
>>> hunting season. The hunters drove all over off road , left their camps a
>>> mess when they left, generally trashed the place. I begged the BLM to come
>>> bust somebody so I could spread the word and maybe get everyone to follow
>>> the rules. Never once did a BLM person show up during the 5 years, except
>>> some old volutiers and all they did was drive around and sometimes pick up
>>> some trash. In 2004 there was one BLM Agent ( The ones who carry guns) to
>>> cover all of southern New Mexico. Border Patrol was a different matter.
>>> There were more Border Patrol on the ranch daily than illegals passed
>>> through yearly. They mostly were hunting arrowheads, shooting rabbits, or
>>>   picnicking. I collect arrowheads. I have all the laws concerning
>>> artifacts in the binder made up for my files. ARPA laws state in is not
>>> againt the law to pick up arrowheads on the surface. ( ARPA was passed in
>>> 1979, Jimmy Crater was the president and he was an arrowhead collector). He
>>> refused to sign ARPA stating that he did not some Boy Scout arrested for
>>> picking an arrowhead up. So it was changed to exclude arrowhead hunting,
>>> only arrowheads nothing else, and that is stated a couple places in the law.
>>> I had a friend in another BLM area got harassed by a BLM person, so I decide
>>> to check in person. There was not one person in the Las Cruces BLM office
>>> who could tell me anything except that you could not do it. It took me weeks
>>> to find the Agent, and he told me a lot of different things. The one that
>>> like was it was not against the law to pick up an arrowhead if you were
>>> working, hiking or whatever else on BLM land and found one. Where you were
>>>   breaking the law was if you went to the BLM land with the intent of
>>> looking for arrowheads. I had the law with me so I pulled out a copy of ARPA
>>> and ask him to show me where that was stated as I had read it numerous times
>>> and never seen any thing written like that. He did not read anything just
>>> stated that I was not a lawyer and probably to stupid to understand legal
>>> writing. I studied Animal Science, Business, and Civil Engineering, so I am
>>> maybe not as smart as a Federal employee, but I know how to read. Someone
>>> needs to have a lawyer friend really read the new meteorite law, including
>>> all the fine print, because the BLM people read the title and go from there,
>>> or they are trying to run you off an area so they can go back and hunt
>>> themselves. Another story about arrowheads and ARPA. I found a copy of the
>>> Forest Service laws on artifacts. It stated that it was against the the to
>>> pick up chipped stone projectiles ( arrowheads ). I contacted the
>>>   Forest Service and questioned it. They told me that ARPA was only a
>>> guideline for federal agencies to use to make their own regulations. I said
>>> so the Congress, Senate, and the President had studied, debated, and finally
>>> passed the law so some GS2 employee of the Forest Service could change to to
>>> what ever he wanted to. I have not seen the new laws but will track one down
>>> soon and have a judge friend of mine write an opionon and sent it to the
>>> list. Saludos Doug
>>> __
>>>
>>> Visit the Archives at
>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> __
>>
>> Visit the Arc

Re: [meteorite-list] Space Shuttle Endeavor

[Robert Woolard]

Wow! That's one fantastic photo. Melody is obviously a very talented 
photographer. Seems to me that shot could definitely be used as the cover of a 
magazine. Thanks for sharing with us all. Pass along my congrats to Melody.

Robert Woolard



On Sep 20, 2012, at 6:28 PM, Michael Farmer  wrote:

> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/29494159@N00/8007594028/in/photostream
> 
> My wife took this photo from U of A this morning as the Space Shuttle flew 
> overhead!
> Michael Farmer
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> __
> 
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> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Large UK fireball!

[Martin Goff]

Mike, It was absolutely stunning! Am just amazed that i saw it as i
was on patrol in my vehicle. Right place, right time for once!

Unfortunately it appears that it will have dropped anything into the sea :-(

Fingers crossed for otherwise though, you never know :-)

Am a very happy chappy :-)

Cheers

Martin

On 22/09/2012, Michael Farmer  wrote:
> wow, that would have been incredible to see in person!
>
> Michael Farmer
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Sep 21, 2012, at 4:54 PM, "Matson, Robert D." 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> Given the east-to-west direction, space junk is extremely unlikely.
>> (Very few manmade objects in such retrograde orbits.)
>>
>> Unfortunately, from your description it sounds like it most likely
>> ended up going over Southport into the Irish Sea southeast of the
>> Isle of Man. Your location is less than 60 km from the coast.
>>
>> --Rob
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
>> [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin
>> Goff
>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 4:44 PM
>> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Large UK fireball!
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have just been exceedingly fortunate to view a large fragmenting
>> fireball over the UK. Absolutely amazing sight! Looked so similar to
>> Peekskill with lots of fragmentation. Am unfortunately at work all night
>> so unable to further research it but already there are numerous reports
>> and sightings. A video of the event has been found here:
>>
>> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df89jhMjLXY)
>>
>> Might be space junk? The fireball had a definite greenish tinge at the
>> beginning.
>>
>> Going east to west. from the A627 in Chadderton, Oldham, Lancashire.
>> Startpoint 25 degrees altitude, 90 degrees azimuth. Endpoint 20 degrees
>> altitude, 290 degrees azimuth. visible for 40 seconds at 22:55hrs
>> 21/9/12. Went from green to orange to yellow with lots of fragmentation.
>> Am still gobsmacked that i saw it Hopefully it will have dropped
>> some meteorites and hopefully not into the sea!
>>
>> Anyway back to work now :-(
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Martin
>> --
>> Martin Goff
>> www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
>> IMCA #3387
>> __
>>
>> Visit the Archives at
>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> __
>>
>> Visit the Archives at
>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>


-- 
Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
IMCA #3387
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Re: [meteorite-list] Large UK fireball!

[Matson, Robert D.]

Hi Martin,

Given the east-to-west direction, space junk is extremely unlikely.
(Very few manmade objects in such retrograde orbits.)

Unfortunately, from your description it sounds like it most likely
ended up going over Southport into the Irish Sea southeast of the
Isle of Man. Your location is less than 60 km from the coast.

--Rob

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin
Goff
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 4:44 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] Large UK fireball!

Hi all,

I have just been exceedingly fortunate to view a large fragmenting
fireball over the UK. Absolutely amazing sight! Looked so similar to
Peekskill with lots of fragmentation. Am unfortunately at work all night
so unable to further research it but already there are numerous reports
and sightings. A video of the event has been found here:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df89jhMjLXY)

Might be space junk? The fireball had a definite greenish tinge at the
beginning.

Going east to west. from the A627 in Chadderton, Oldham, Lancashire.
Startpoint 25 degrees altitude, 90 degrees azimuth. Endpoint 20 degrees
altitude, 290 degrees azimuth. visible for 40 seconds at 22:55hrs
21/9/12. Went from green to orange to yellow with lots of fragmentation.
Am still gobsmacked that i saw it Hopefully it will have dropped
some meteorites and hopefully not into the sea!

Anyway back to work now :-(

Cheers

Martin
--
Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
IMCA #3387
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[meteorite-list] Large UK fireball!

[Martin Goff]

Hi all,

I have just been exceedingly fortunate to view a large fragmenting
fireball over the UK. Absolutely amazing sight! Looked so similar to
Peekskill with lots of fragmentation. Am unfortunately at work all
night so unable to further research it but already there are numerous
reports and sightings. A video of the event has been found here:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df89jhMjLXY)

Might be space junk? The fireball had a definite greenish tinge at the
beginning.

Going east to west. from the A627 in Chadderton, Oldham, Lancashire.
Startpoint 25 degrees altitude, 90 degrees azimuth. Endpoint 20
degrees altitude, 290 degrees azimuth. visible for 40 seconds at
22:55hrs 21/9/12. Went from green to orange to yellow with lots of
fragmentation. Am still gobsmacked that i saw it Hopefully it will
have dropped some meteorites and hopefully not into the sea!

Anyway back to work now :-(

Cheers

Martin
-- 
Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
IMCA #3387
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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM

[Greg Hupé]

Hello All,

With such 'loose' and broad 'laws/suggestions-2-law', it is a fact that the 
next really large find from old fall or fresh fall that a private individual 
finds on 'public' land will end up in court! I believe the private sector 
has a much better grasp and respect for meteorites that are found on public 
land than ANY bureaucratic agency can even come close to understanding. The 
private sector contributes far greater personal resources (financial and 
personal time), at a MUCH CHEAPER rate, than any governmental body could 
even consider!! Something to chew on while smoking a stogy with one of the 
Good 'ol Boy DC types!!!


Best Regards,
Greg

-Original Message- 
From: Jeff Grossman

Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 6:55 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM

I am not an expert in this area, but the way I understand it, the Code
of Federal Regulations, which have the force of law, grant certain
agencies regulatory authority in certain areas.  The new BLM policy
cites the sections of the CFR under which they are claiming authority to
regulate the collection of meteorites on public lands.

I am not a lawyer, and I could not attempt to assess whether BLM's
applications of the CFR to meteorites would stand up in court. Nor do I
wish to comment on whether I think the policy they implemented is wise.
But I don't think they are exceeding the authority granted to them under
US law to make such policies in general.

So BLM is not writing laws... they regulating under the law.

At least that's how I understand it.

Jeff

On 9/21/2012 1:39 PM, Michael Mulgrew wrote:

As I understand it, this new memo from the BLM is not a law.  Last I
checked the BLM does not have the power to write laws.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Doug Achim  wrote:

I live in Southern New Mexico. I ran about 100 sections, part of a larger
ranch for a little over 5 years( 1999 to 2004) The part I ran was almost 
all

classified as Wilderness Study Area (WSA). Look up the rules for WSA. The
only time there was anyone in the area that was not there to visit me was
hunting season. The hunters drove all over off road , left their camps a
mess when they left, generally trashed the place. I begged the BLM to 
come

bust somebody so I could spread the word and maybe get everyone to follow
the rules. Never once did a BLM person show up during the 5 years, except
some old volutiers and all they did was drive around and sometimes pick 
up

some trash. In 2004 there was one BLM Agent ( The ones who carry guns) to
cover all of southern New Mexico. Border Patrol was a different matter.
There were more Border Patrol on the ranch daily than illegals passed
through yearly. They mostly were hunting arrowheads, shooting rabbits, or
  picnicking. I collect arrowheads. I have all the laws concerning
artifacts in the binder made up for my files. ARPA laws state in is not
againt the law to pick up arrowheads on the surface. ( ARPA was passed in
1979, Jimmy Crater was the president and he was an arrowhead collector). 
He

refused to sign ARPA stating that he did not some Boy Scout arrested for
picking an arrowhead up. So it was changed to exclude arrowhead hunting,
only arrowheads nothing else, and that is stated a couple places in the 
law.
I had a friend in another BLM area got harassed by a BLM person, so I 
decide

to check in person. There was not one person in the Las Cruces BLM office
who could tell me anything except that you could not do it. It took me 
weeks

to find the Agent, and he told me a lot of different things. The one that
like was it was not against the law to pick up an arrowhead if you were
working, hiking or whatever else on BLM land and found one. Where you 
were

  breaking the law was if you went to the BLM land with the intent of
looking for arrowheads. I had the law with me so I pulled out a copy of 
ARPA
and ask him to show me where that was stated as I had read it numerous 
times

and never seen any thing written like that. He did not read anything just
stated that I was not a lawyer and probably to stupid to understand legal
writing. I studied Animal Science, Business, and Civil Engineering, so I 
am

maybe not as smart as a Federal employee, but I know how to read. Someone
needs to have a lawyer friend really read the new meteorite law, 
including
all the fine print, because the BLM people read the title and go from 
there,

or they are trying to run you off an area so they can go back and hunt
themselves. Another story about arrowheads and ARPA. I found a copy of 
the
Forest Service laws on artifacts. It stated that it was against the the 
to

pick up chipped stone projectiles ( arrowheads ). I contacted the
  Forest Service and questioned it. They told me that ARPA was only a
guideline for federal agencies to use to make their own regulations. I 
said
so the Congress, Senate, and the President had studied, debated, and 
finally
passed the law so som

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM

[Jeff Grossman]

I am not an expert in this area, but the way I understand it, the Code 
of Federal Regulations, which have the force of law, grant certain 
agencies regulatory authority in certain areas.  The new BLM policy 
cites the sections of the CFR under which they are claiming authority to 
regulate the collection of meteorites on public lands.


I am not a lawyer, and I could not attempt to assess whether BLM's 
applications of the CFR to meteorites would stand up in court. Nor do I 
wish to comment on whether I think the policy they implemented is wise. 
But I don't think they are exceeding the authority granted to them under 
US law to make such policies in general.


So BLM is not writing laws... they regulating under the law.

At least that's how I understand it.

Jeff

On 9/21/2012 1:39 PM, Michael Mulgrew wrote:

As I understand it, this new memo from the BLM is not a law.  Last I
checked the BLM does not have the power to write laws.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Doug Achim  wrote:

I live in Southern New Mexico. I ran about 100 sections, part of a larger
ranch for a little over 5 years( 1999 to 2004) The part I ran was almost all
classified as Wilderness Study Area (WSA). Look up the rules for WSA. The
only time there was anyone in the area that was not there to visit me was
hunting season. The hunters drove all over off road , left their camps a
mess when they left, generally trashed the place. I begged the BLM to come
bust somebody so I could spread the word and maybe get everyone to follow
the rules. Never once did a BLM person show up during the 5 years, except
some old volutiers and all they did was drive around and sometimes pick up
some trash. In 2004 there was one BLM Agent ( The ones who carry guns) to
cover all of southern New Mexico. Border Patrol was a different matter.
There were more Border Patrol on the ranch daily than illegals passed
through yearly. They mostly were hunting arrowheads, shooting rabbits, or
  picnicking. I collect arrowheads. I have all the laws concerning
artifacts in the binder made up for my files. ARPA laws state in is not
againt the law to pick up arrowheads on the surface. ( ARPA was passed in
1979, Jimmy Crater was the president and he was an arrowhead collector). He
refused to sign ARPA stating that he did not some Boy Scout arrested for
picking an arrowhead up. So it was changed to exclude arrowhead hunting,
only arrowheads nothing else, and that is stated a couple places in the law.
I had a friend in another BLM area got harassed by a BLM person, so I decide
to check in person. There was not one person in the Las Cruces BLM office
who could tell me anything except that you could not do it. It took me weeks
to find the Agent, and he told me a lot of different things. The one that
like was it was not against the law to pick up an arrowhead if you were
working, hiking or whatever else on BLM land and found one. Where you were
  breaking the law was if you went to the BLM land with the intent of
looking for arrowheads. I had the law with me so I pulled out a copy of ARPA
and ask him to show me where that was stated as I had read it numerous times
and never seen any thing written like that. He did not read anything just
stated that I was not a lawyer and probably to stupid to understand legal
writing. I studied Animal Science, Business, and Civil Engineering, so I am
maybe not as smart as a Federal employee, but I know how to read. Someone
needs to have a lawyer friend really read the new meteorite law, including
all the fine print, because the BLM people read the title and go from there,
or they are trying to run you off an area so they can go back and hunt
themselves. Another story about arrowheads and ARPA. I found a copy of the
Forest Service laws on artifacts. It stated that it was against the the to
pick up chipped stone projectiles ( arrowheads ). I contacted the
  Forest Service and questioned it. They told me that ARPA was only a
guideline for federal agencies to use to make their own regulations. I said
so the Congress, Senate, and the President had studied, debated, and finally
passed the law so some GS2 employee of the Forest Service could change to to
what ever he wanted to. I have not seen the new laws but will track one down
soon and have a judge friend of mine write an opionon and sent it to the
list. Saludos Doug
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[meteorite-list] AD: FREE Battle Mountain Specimen - See Details

[michael cottingham]

Hello,

I am offering a FREE Battle Mountain Micro - somewhere between .100 to .300 
gram, with or without crust for every $50.00 worth of purchases from my ebay 
store!

So buy $50.00 worth of meteorites or any other items in my store and receive a 
FREE Battle Mountain Meteorite fragment for free.

Thanks and Best Wishes

Michael Cottingham


Go Here:

ALL SALE ITEMS HERE:

http://stores.ebay.com/voyage-botanica-natural-history
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[meteorite-list] selling 2004 Liberia meteorite

[Will Guinn]

How  much do they sell for? I have one still in redwood box. any ideas what to 
do with it? its a 2004 2 oz silver Liberia meteorite coin. more then willing to 
make a great deal.
Thanks
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Shawn Alan]

Michael in So Cal

Yes I did hear about the BLM hiring hundreds of meteorite experts :)
But you dont know is all the hired meteorite experts are BML employee
that took an on certificate course on how to be a world class meteorite
hunter and now they know what and meteorite "rocks" looks like
http://redriverautographs.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/rock-bull-dwayne-the-rock-johnson-775398_1178_1319.jpg
:)
Shawn Alan 
IMCA 1633
eBay Store
http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html?
http://www.meteoritefalls.com/

- Original Message -
From: Michael Mulgrew 
To: Shawn Alan ; Meteorite List 

Cc: 
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

Shawn,

You mean you didn't hear about the hundreds of meteorite experts now
on staff at the BLM that are going to verify everyone's finds and
classify them so their "fair market value" can be assessed?  Oh wait,
me neither.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Shawn Alan  wrote:
> Hello Listers
>
> What is confusing for me is that its seem the new BLM rules make it 
> impossible for scientist and institutions to hunt and collect "meteorites" in 
> the name for science, I wonder why? You would think it would be just as easy 
> for scientist as it is with the casual collector. As speaking of a casual 
> collectors, how could one be 100% its a meteorite? At the end of the day, its 
> a stone until otherwise prove or disprove by someone with expertise.
>
> Shawn Alan
> IMCA 1633
> eBay Store
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html?
>
>
>
>
> [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
> Jeff Grossman jngrossman
> at gmail.com
> Thu Sep 20 19:06:11 EDT 2012
>     * Previous message: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
>     * Next message: [meteorite-list] Curiosity Update: Near
> Target Rock 'Matijevic'
>     * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject
> ] [ author ]
> 
>
> All,
>
> For those of you who don't know, I contribute to
> this list as a private
> citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties
> that extend to
> oversight of curation and research programs. I will be
> reading all
> posts on the list pertaining to this issue.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
>
>>I have been in
> communications with the BLM on and off all day. Art,
>
>>thank
> for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and
>
>>thought I had this set correctly!
>
>>
>
>>Here is the first response:
>
>>
>
>>Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the
> time it
>
>>takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the
> application. This
>
>>would be determined by the field office
> manager after the application
>
>>is submitted and reviewed.
> These fees would be estimated for you prior
>
>>to the
> processing of the application, and would include monitoring
>
>>fees as well. The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees
>
>>would be on page 2 when a permit is issued. Some examples of
> what the
>
>>fees would be can be found on the following web
> site and one example
>
>>is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You
>
>>mentioned a “nation-wide” permit in your email. BLM
> issues permits on
>
>>a local level, and at maximum could be on
> a state-wide level, for
>
>>lands that we administer in the
> Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
>
>>---
>
>>
>
>>I am not going to post their second
> response but they are now aware of
>
>>some issues that may or
> may not change the wording.
>
>>
>
>>I feel it is
> imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on
>
>>this
> issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately,
>
>>without delay of some permit process. While they are
> claiming media
>
>>sparked this, most of us knew it was coming,
> just did not know when or
>
>>how the wording would be.
>
>>
>
>>The current fee structure is twofold. 1.
> The application / permit.
>
>>2. The monitoring fee. Currently
> the fees will range from ~$100 to
>
>>~$1100 for commercial
> huntersthose seeking profit. This is based
>
>>on their
> current cost recovery methods. I have both the application
>
>>and the fee schedule as example based on the above response. If
>
>>anyone wants them shoot me a private email.
>
>>
>
>>The big issue for hunters is that this
> will be based on a regional
>
>>level where each district
> supervisor may or may not have special
>
>>conditions, etc.
> Bottom line is that it will be required to have
>
>>permits in
> different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead
>
>>for professional hunters. If hunters have to wait for a permit
>
>>process during a meteor event that produces meteorites, I
> feel science
>
>>looses.
>
>>
>
>>Regards,
>
>>
>
>>Jim
>
>>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>     * Previous message: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
>     * Next message: [meteorite-list] Curiosity Update: Near
> Target Rock 'Matijevic'
>     * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [

[meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: September 17-21, 2012

[Ron Baalke]

MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES
September 17-21, 2012

o North Polar Dunes (17 Septmeber 2012)
  http://themis.asu.edu/node/5983

o Channels (18 Septmeber 2012)
  http://themis.asu.edu/node/5984

o Landslide (19 Septmeber 2012)
  http://themis.asu.edu/node/5985

o Lava Channels (20 Septmeber 2012)
  http://themis.asu.edu/node/5986

o Storm Front (21 Septmeber 2012)
  http://themis.asu.edu/node/5987


All of the THEMIS images are archived here:

http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission 
for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission 
Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University,
Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. 
The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State 
University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor 
for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission 
operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a 
division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. 



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[meteorite-list] MESSENGER's X-Ray Spectrometer Reveals Chemical Diversity on Mercury's Surface

[Ron Baalke]

http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/news_room/details.php?id=229

MESSENGER Mission News
September 21, 2012

MESSENGER's X-Ray Spectrometer Reveals Chemical Diversity on Mercury's
Surface

New data from the X-Ray Spectrometer (XRS) on the MESSENGER spacecraft
-- one of two instruments designed to measure the abundances of many key
elements on Mercury -- show variations in the composition of surface
material on Mercury that point to changes over time in the
characteristics of volcanic eruptions on the solar system's innermost
planet.

In results to be published in the Journal of Geophysical Research,
scientists report that Mercury's volcanic smooth plains units differ in
composition from older surrounding terrains. The older terrain has
higher ratios of magnesium to silicon, sulfur to silicon, and calcium to
silicon, but lower ratios of aluminum to silicon, suggesting that the
smooth plains material erupted from a magma source that was chemically
different from the source of the material in the older regions, explains
Shoshana Weider of the Carnegie Institution of Washington, the lead
author on the paper.

"The new findings further illuminate the geological history of the
planet," she says. "We now know that these areas are compositionally
distinct, indicating that different parts of Mercury's mantle melted at
different times and temperatures, and through volcanic activity created
the materials in the different terrains."

Weider and her co-authors also report that Mercury's surface is
dominated by minerals high in magnesium and enriched in sulfur.

"None of the other terrestrial planets have such high levels of sulfur.
We are seeing about ten times the amount of sulfur than on Earth and
Mars," Weider says. "In terms of magnesium, we do have some materials
on Earth that are high in magnesium. They tend to be ancient volcanic
rocks that formed from very hot lavas. So this composition on Mercury
tells us that eruptions of high-temperature lavas might have formed
these high-magnesium materials."

These findings stem from the team's analysis of 205 X-ray measurements
of Mercury's surface, focusing on the large expanse of smooth volcanic
plains at high northern latitudes and surrounding areas that are higher
in crater density and therefore older than the northern plains. Weider
says the measurements support what other MESSENGER scientists have
observed from the mission's images. "Now we can correlate their findings
with our data, providing increased confidence in what we are discovering
about the planet," she says.

MESSENGER has been orbiting Mercury since March 2011, and has been
revealing new information about the surface chemistry and geological
history of the innermost planet in the solar system. The XRS measures
elemental abundances on the surface of Mercury by detecting fluorescent
X-ray emissions induced on the planet's surface by the incident solar
X-ray flux. The instrument began orbital observations on March 23, 2011,
and has observed X-ray fluorescence from the surface of the planet
whenever a sunlit portion of Mercury has been within the XRS field of view.

"The X-ray spectrometer focuses on the estimation of elemental
abundances on Mercury; i.e., the amount of magnesium, aluminum, sulfur,
calcium, and iron in surface material," Weider says. "From there we can
start to work out what kinds of minerals are present, then the types of
rocks that were formed, and then we can start to unravel the geological
history."

MESSENGER (MErcury Surface, Space ENvironment, GEochemistry, and
Ranging) is a NASA-sponsored scientific investigation of the planet
Mercury and the first space mission designed to orbit the planet closest
to the Sun. The MESSENGER spacecraft launched on August 3, 2004, and
after flybys of Earth, Venus, and Mercury will start a yearlong study of
its target planet in March 2011. Dr. Sean C. Solomon, of the Carnegie
Institution of Washington, leads the mission as Principal Investigator.
The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory built and operates
the MESSENGER spacecraft and manages this Discovery-class mission for NASA.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Battle Mountain Adventure Page

[Darryl Pitt]

There are indeed some fantastic pics in the mix.  

On the mountain top looking at the horizon.  Gorgeous.

And then there is indeed the rock. 

Congrats!






On Sep 21, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote:

> Awesome pics.  Thanks for sharing those.  That fresh stone at the
> bottom of the page is absolutely delicious.  Congrats on the finds to
> all of the hunters.   :)
> 
> MikeG
> 
> -- 
> -
> Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
> Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
> Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
> Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
> RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
> -
> 
> 
> On 9/21/12, Greg Hupé  wrote:
>> Dear List Members,
>> 
>> I would like to share my eight days of hunting at Battle Mountain by way of
>> 
>> a web page built by my very talented friend, Michael Johnson!
>> 
>> Enjoy!
>> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/BATTLE-MOUNTAIN.html
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> Greg
>> 
>> 
>> Greg Hupé
>> The Hupé Collection
>> gmh...@centurylink.net
>> www.LunarRock.com
>> NaturesVault (eBay & Facebook)
>> http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
>> IMCA 3163
>> 
>> Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> __
>> 
>> Visit the Archives at
>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
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>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> 
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks]

I've never make it in the field of chartered accountancy.  LOL.

My point about the government regulating meteorites still stands
though.  The bureaucrats need to put their noses back in their books,
and leave the meteorite hunting alone.



On 9/21/12, Anne Black  wrote:
> " The opening bid is $180,000, or almost  $1000 per gram, for a 1815g
> stone. "
>
> $180,000 divided by 1815g = $99.17 a gram
>
> Anne M. Black
> www.IMPACTIKA.com
> impact...@aol.com
> Vice-President of IMCA
> www.IMCA.cc
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks 
> To: Jim Wooddell 
> Cc: Meteorite List 
> Sent: Fri, Sep 21, 2012 1:36 pm
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
>
>
> Hi Jim and List,
>
> I think your estimate of 50 professional meteorite hunters in the USA
> is very generous.  I would wager it's even less.  The majority of the
> professional hunters are members of this List.  Granted, not all of
> them post regularly, but the major hunters are well-known.  I can
> count them on two hands and have a couple fingers left over.
>
> I guess one could define "professional meteorite hunter" as someone
> who files taxes and lists their profession on the forms as such.  How
> many people actually earn a sustainable living solely from hunting and
> finding meteorites?  Maybe a dozen.
>
> Someone who goes out into the field for the purpose of finding
> meteorites, and finds some, and then sells a few is not necessarily a
> commercial or professional hunter.  Just because somebody sells the
> occasional specimen on eBay does not mean they are making a profit,
> nor does it mean they are a commercial vendor in the commonly-accepted
> definition of the term.
>
> The bonafide pro meteorite hunters reading this can testify that
> making a profit is hit and miss at best.  Most of the time these
> hunters go out into the field, spend a ton of money in expenses, and
> come home empty-handed.  I know a few people who flew out to Sutter's
> Mill and spent weeks beating the bush and they didn't find a single
> fragment.  If they find a small frag on the last day of hunting and
> sell it, does that make that person a professional hunter?  Even if
> they lost thousands of dollars in expenses on the trip and don't sell
> another find for years or more?
>
> This new regulation is not needed.  This is hitting a gnat with a
> sledgehammer, or shooting a rabbit with a bazooka.  The government
> (fed, state, or local) should always err on the side of refraining
> from new legislation.  Of course, as we know, governments rarely do
> that.  The cat is out the bag about the value of meteorites, and the
> government has tunnel vision - all the bureaucrats are hearing are
> things like :
>
> "A thousand dollars per gram..."
>
> "Million dollar meteorite..."
>
> And that is all the government cares about.  It is up to the meteorite
> community to stand up and educate them about the truth of the matter -
> sure, there are meteorites that are "worth" a million dollars or more.
>  But how many have ever sold for any price approaching that extreme?
> Take the recent offer of the NWA 5000 main mass for example.  It's a
> staggering specimen of unequaled girth, aesthetics, and importance.
> It's a moon rock the size of a soccerball for crying out loud.  Of
> course it's "worth" more than a million dollars and maybe 10 million
> or more.  But, will it ever sell for that amount of money?  Most
> likely not.  I'm sure Adam and Greg wouldn't mind if it did, and I
> wish them the best of luck with it, but I'll get hit in the head with
> a new Martian hammer fall before someone will pay $10 million for a
> meteorite.
>
> Take the recent media story about the $380,000 lunar meteorite (DaG
> 1058) for sale at Heritage.  The opening bid is $180,000, or almost
> $1000 per gram, for a 1815g stone.  When is the last time someone paid
> a per-gram price like that for a stone of that size?  The unwritten
> rule of the meteorite market is - the smaller the specimen, the bigger
> the per-gram price is.  Conversely, the bigger the specimen, the
> smaller the per-gram price is.  Has any professional dealer reading
> this ever sold a lunar larger than 1000g for $1000 per gram?  I doubt
> it.
>
>
>


-- 
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Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
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RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Anne Black]

" The opening bid is $180,000, or almost  $1000 per gram, for a 1815g 
stone. "


$180,000 divided by 1815g = $99.17 a gram

Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com
Vice-President of IMCA
www.IMCA.cc


-Original Message-
From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks 
To: Jim Wooddell 
Cc: Meteorite List 
Sent: Fri, Sep 21, 2012 1:36 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules


Hi Jim and List,

I think your estimate of 50 professional meteorite hunters in the USA
is very generous.  I would wager it's even less.  The majority of the
professional hunters are members of this List.  Granted, not all of
them post regularly, but the major hunters are well-known.  I can
count them on two hands and have a couple fingers left over.

I guess one could define "professional meteorite hunter" as someone
who files taxes and lists their profession on the forms as such.  How
many people actually earn a sustainable living solely from hunting and
finding meteorites?  Maybe a dozen.

Someone who goes out into the field for the purpose of finding
meteorites, and finds some, and then sells a few is not necessarily a
commercial or professional hunter.  Just because somebody sells the
occasional specimen on eBay does not mean they are making a profit,
nor does it mean they are a commercial vendor in the commonly-accepted
definition of the term.

The bonafide pro meteorite hunters reading this can testify that
making a profit is hit and miss at best.  Most of the time these
hunters go out into the field, spend a ton of money in expenses, and
come home empty-handed.  I know a few people who flew out to Sutter's
Mill and spent weeks beating the bush and they didn't find a single
fragment.  If they find a small frag on the last day of hunting and
sell it, does that make that person a professional hunter?  Even if
they lost thousands of dollars in expenses on the trip and don't sell
another find for years or more?

This new regulation is not needed.  This is hitting a gnat with a
sledgehammer, or shooting a rabbit with a bazooka.  The government
(fed, state, or local) should always err on the side of refraining
from new legislation.  Of course, as we know, governments rarely do
that.  The cat is out the bag about the value of meteorites, and the
government has tunnel vision - all the bureaucrats are hearing are
things like :

"A thousand dollars per gram..."

"Million dollar meteorite..."

And that is all the government cares about.  It is up to the meteorite
community to stand up and educate them about the truth of the matter -
sure, there are meteorites that are "worth" a million dollars or more.
But how many have ever sold for any price approaching that extreme?
Take the recent offer of the NWA 5000 main mass for example.  It's a
staggering specimen of unequaled girth, aesthetics, and importance.
It's a moon rock the size of a soccerball for crying out loud.  Of
course it's "worth" more than a million dollars and maybe 10 million
or more.  But, will it ever sell for that amount of money?  Most
likely not.  I'm sure Adam and Greg wouldn't mind if it did, and I
wish them the best of luck with it, but I'll get hit in the head with
a new Martian hammer fall before someone will pay $10 million for a
meteorite.

Take the recent media story about the $380,000 lunar meteorite (DaG
1058) for sale at Heritage.  The opening bid is $180,000, or almost
$1000 per gram, for a 1815g stone.  When is the last time someone paid
a per-gram price like that for a stone of that size?  The unwritten
rule of the meteorite market is - the smaller the specimen, the bigger
the per-gram price is.  Conversely, the bigger the specimen, the
smaller the per-gram price is.  Has any professional dealer reading
this ever sold a lunar larger than 1000g for $1000 per gram?  I doubt
it.


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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks]

My math sucks.  I make no apologies for that.  LOL.

It was kindly pointed out to me off-list that I had my math wrong on
the per-gram price of the lunar being auctioned at Heritage.

I think the point is still valid to some extent though, when taking
into account the size of the asking price.



On 9/21/12, **> wrote:
> off list -- 1,815 grams for $180k is $100/g.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks
>  wrote:
>> Hi Jim and List,
>>
>> I think your estimate of 50 professional meteorite hunters in the USA
>> is very generous.  I would wager it's even less.  The majority of the
>> professional hunters are members of this List.  Granted, not all of
>> them post regularly, but the major hunters are well-known.  I can
>> count them on two hands and have a couple fingers left over.
>>
>> I guess one could define "professional meteorite hunter" as someone
>> who files taxes and lists their profession on the forms as such.  How
>> many people actually earn a sustainable living solely from hunting and
>> finding meteorites?  Maybe a dozen.
>>
>> Someone who goes out into the field for the purpose of finding
>> meteorites, and finds some, and then sells a few is not necessarily a
>> commercial or professional hunter.  Just because somebody sells the
>> occasional specimen on eBay does not mean they are making a profit,
>> nor does it mean they are a commercial vendor in the commonly-accepted
>> definition of the term.
>>
>> The bonafide pro meteorite hunters reading this can testify that
>> making a profit is hit and miss at best.  Most of the time these
>> hunters go out into the field, spend a ton of money in expenses, and
>> come home empty-handed.  I know a few people who flew out to Sutter's
>> Mill and spent weeks beating the bush and they didn't find a single
>> fragment.  If they find a small frag on the last day of hunting and
>> sell it, does that make that person a professional hunter?  Even if
>> they lost thousands of dollars in expenses on the trip and don't sell
>> another find for years or more?
>>
>> This new regulation is not needed.  This is hitting a gnat with a
>> sledgehammer, or shooting a rabbit with a bazooka.  The government
>> (fed, state, or local) should always err on the side of refraining
>> from new legislation.  Of course, as we know, governments rarely do
>> that.  The cat is out the bag about the value of meteorites, and the
>> government has tunnel vision - all the bureaucrats are hearing are
>> things like :
>>
>> "A thousand dollars per gram..."
>>
>> "Million dollar meteorite..."
>>
>> And that is all the government cares about.  It is up to the meteorite
>> community to stand up and educate them about the truth of the matter -
>> sure, there are meteorites that are "worth" a million dollars or more.
>>  But how many have ever sold for any price approaching that extreme?
>> Take the recent offer of the NWA 5000 main mass for example.  It's a
>> staggering specimen of unequaled girth, aesthetics, and importance.
>> It's a moon rock the size of a soccerball for crying out loud.  Of
>> course it's "worth" more than a million dollars and maybe 10 million
>> or more.  But, will it ever sell for that amount of money?  Most
>> likely not.  I'm sure Adam and Greg wouldn't mind if it did, and I
>> wish them the best of luck with it, but I'll get hit in the head with
>> a new Martian hammer fall before someone will pay $10 million for a
>> meteorite.
>>
>> Take the recent media story about the $380,000 lunar meteorite (DaG
>> 1058) for sale at Heritage.  The opening bid is $180,000, or almost
>> $1000 per gram, for a 1815g stone.  When is the last time someone paid
>> a per-gram price like that for a stone of that size?  The unwritten
>> rule of the meteorite market is - the smaller the specimen, the bigger
>> the per-gram price is.  Conversely, the bigger the specimen, the
>> smaller the per-gram price is.  Has any professional dealer reading
>> this ever sold a lunar larger than 1000g for $1000 per gram?  I doubt
>> it.
>>
>> ---> (Trust me, this going back to government regulating meteorites.)
>>
>> Even if a whale of a collector came along and paid $20 million for a
>> meteorite, that would probably be a singular event and would never be
>> repeated in our lifetimes.  Heck, if I win the powerball lottery, I'm
>> gonna buy a slab of pallasite the size of a coffee table, but the
>> government should not judge a "commodity" market based on sales that
>> are anomalies.
>>
>> The government should stay out of the meteorite business.  Meteorites
>> are not just another collectible or commodity.  Scientists are not
>> clamoring to study gold bars or baseball cards.  Meteorites are
>> valuable far beyond their monetary worth.  They can unlock for us the
>> mysteries of the cosmos and creation.  They are the very building
>> blocks of every planet in the solar system, including Earth.  Their
>> importance to science is vast, and due to the circum

Re: [meteorite-list] Battle Mountain Adventure Page

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks]

Awesome pics.  Thanks for sharing those.  That fresh stone at the
bottom of the page is absolutely delicious.  Congrats on the finds to
all of the hunters.   :)

MikeG

-- 
-
Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
-


On 9/21/12, Greg Hupé  wrote:
> Dear List Members,
>
> I would like to share my eight days of hunting at Battle Mountain by way of
>
> a web page built by my very talented friend, Michael Johnson!
>
> Enjoy!
> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/BATTLE-MOUNTAIN.html
>
> Best Regards,
> Greg
>
> 
> Greg Hupé
> The Hupé Collection
> gmh...@centurylink.net
> www.LunarRock.com
> NaturesVault (eBay & Facebook)
> http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
> IMCA 3163
> 
> Click here for my current eBay auctions:
> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>
>
>
> __
>
> Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
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[meteorite-list] Battle Mountain Adventure Page

[Greg Hupé]

Dear List Members,

I would like to share my eight days of hunting at Battle Mountain by way of 
a web page built by my very talented friend, Michael Johnson!


Enjoy!
http://www.rocksfromspace.org/BATTLE-MOUNTAIN.html

Best Regards,
Greg


Greg Hupé
The Hupé Collection
gmh...@centurylink.net
www.LunarRock.com
NaturesVault (eBay & Facebook)
http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
IMCA 3163

Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault



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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks]

Hi Jim and List,

I think your estimate of 50 professional meteorite hunters in the USA
is very generous.  I would wager it's even less.  The majority of the
professional hunters are members of this List.  Granted, not all of
them post regularly, but the major hunters are well-known.  I can
count them on two hands and have a couple fingers left over.

I guess one could define "professional meteorite hunter" as someone
who files taxes and lists their profession on the forms as such.  How
many people actually earn a sustainable living solely from hunting and
finding meteorites?  Maybe a dozen.

Someone who goes out into the field for the purpose of finding
meteorites, and finds some, and then sells a few is not necessarily a
commercial or professional hunter.  Just because somebody sells the
occasional specimen on eBay does not mean they are making a profit,
nor does it mean they are a commercial vendor in the commonly-accepted
definition of the term.

The bonafide pro meteorite hunters reading this can testify that
making a profit is hit and miss at best.  Most of the time these
hunters go out into the field, spend a ton of money in expenses, and
come home empty-handed.  I know a few people who flew out to Sutter's
Mill and spent weeks beating the bush and they didn't find a single
fragment.  If they find a small frag on the last day of hunting and
sell it, does that make that person a professional hunter?  Even if
they lost thousands of dollars in expenses on the trip and don't sell
another find for years or more?

This new regulation is not needed.  This is hitting a gnat with a
sledgehammer, or shooting a rabbit with a bazooka.  The government
(fed, state, or local) should always err on the side of refraining
from new legislation.  Of course, as we know, governments rarely do
that.  The cat is out the bag about the value of meteorites, and the
government has tunnel vision - all the bureaucrats are hearing are
things like :

"A thousand dollars per gram..."

"Million dollar meteorite..."

And that is all the government cares about.  It is up to the meteorite
community to stand up and educate them about the truth of the matter -
sure, there are meteorites that are "worth" a million dollars or more.
 But how many have ever sold for any price approaching that extreme?
Take the recent offer of the NWA 5000 main mass for example.  It's a
staggering specimen of unequaled girth, aesthetics, and importance.
It's a moon rock the size of a soccerball for crying out loud.  Of
course it's "worth" more than a million dollars and maybe 10 million
or more.  But, will it ever sell for that amount of money?  Most
likely not.  I'm sure Adam and Greg wouldn't mind if it did, and I
wish them the best of luck with it, but I'll get hit in the head with
a new Martian hammer fall before someone will pay $10 million for a
meteorite.

Take the recent media story about the $380,000 lunar meteorite (DaG
1058) for sale at Heritage.  The opening bid is $180,000, or almost
$1000 per gram, for a 1815g stone.  When is the last time someone paid
a per-gram price like that for a stone of that size?  The unwritten
rule of the meteorite market is - the smaller the specimen, the bigger
the per-gram price is.  Conversely, the bigger the specimen, the
smaller the per-gram price is.  Has any professional dealer reading
this ever sold a lunar larger than 1000g for $1000 per gram?  I doubt
it.

---> (Trust me, this going back to government regulating meteorites.)

Even if a whale of a collector came along and paid $20 million for a
meteorite, that would probably be a singular event and would never be
repeated in our lifetimes.  Heck, if I win the powerball lottery, I'm
gonna buy a slab of pallasite the size of a coffee table, but the
government should not judge a "commodity" market based on sales that
are anomalies.

The government should stay out of the meteorite business.  Meteorites
are not just another collectible or commodity.  Scientists are not
clamoring to study gold bars or baseball cards.  Meteorites are
valuable far beyond their monetary worth.  They can unlock for us the
mysteries of the cosmos and creation.  They are the very building
blocks of every planet in the solar system, including Earth.  Their
importance to science is vast, and due to the circumstances
surrounding meteorite hunting, science benefits from collaboration
with private individuals.

Let's face it, private meteorite hunters have a skillset that eludes
most people and they have the FREEDOM to go out and recover stones at
will without the need to file paperwork in triplicate beforehand.
They can reach a new fall faster than anyone else, including the
government.  And they can recover stones with the best of the
"officially-sanctioned" hunters working on scientific or institutional
expeditions.  Take one of the most experienced meteorite hunters on
this List and send him/her on the next ANSMET expedition.  I would
wager my money that private hunter will score more find

[meteorite-list] Fw: BLM

[Doug Achim]

I just drove to the BLM office in Las Cruces New Mexico and ask them for the 
laws concerning meteorites. Not one person had any idea about it much less any 
new regulations recently inacted. The boss there stated that he thought it was 
legal but a sample of your meteorite had to be submitted to the Smithsonian. It 
is my understanding that any changes to the BLM regulations would have to go 
through the same process as enacting a new law so it seems impossible that an 
area director could just make a new addendum to the existing regulations. But 
again this is southern New Mexico and we are already under Marshall law with 
all the Border Patrol, Customs and Border Protection, ICE, DEA,FBI, Customs, 
and some kind of Federal Police ( Who Drive around in black Subaerans, and 
heilocopters) usually no where near the border, ( they leave that to the Texas 
and New Mexico State police and County Sheriff Departments. Saludos Doug

- Forwarded Message -
From: "cdtuc...@cox.net" 
To: Doug Achim 
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM

Doug, Thank you for this info. Like Shawn said. Meteorites are just rocks. How 
does casual  rock collecting fit in those laws? 
Carl
meteoritemax
--
Cheers

 Doug Achim  wrote: 
> I live in Southern New Mexico. I ran about 100 sections, part of a larger 
> ranch for a little over 5 years( 1999 to 2004) The part I ran was almost all 
> classified as Wilderness Study Area (WSA). Look up the rules for WSA. The 
> only time there was anyone in the area that was not there to visit me was 
> hunting season. The hunters drove all over off road , left their camps a mess 
> when they left, generally trashed the place. I begged the BLM to come bust 
> somebody so I could spread the word and maybe get everyone to follow the 
> rules. Never once did a BLM person show up during the 5 years, except some 
> old volutiers and all they did was drive around and sometimes pick up some 
> trash. In 2004 there was one BLM Agent ( The ones who carry guns) to cover 
> all of southern New Mexico. Border Patrol was a different matter. There were 
> more Border Patrol on the ranch daily than illegals passed through yearly. 
> They mostly were hunting arrowheads, shooting rabbits, or
>  picnicking. I collect arrowheads. I have all the laws concerning artifacts 
>in the binder made up for my files. ARPA laws state in is not against the law 
>to pick up arrowheads on the surface. ( ARPA was passed in 1979, Jimmy Crater 
>was the president and he was an arrowhead collector). He refused to sign ARPA 
>stating that he did not some Boy Scout arrested for picking an arrowhead up. 
>So it was changed to exclude arrowhead hunting, only arrowheads nothing 
>else, and that is stated a couple places in the law. I had a friend in another 
>BLM area got harassed by a BLM person, so I decide to check in person. There 
>was not one person in the Las Cruces BLM office who could tell me anything 
>except that you could not do it. It took me weeks to find the Agent, and he 
>told me a lot of different things. The one that like was it was not against 
>the law to pick up an arrowhead if you were working, hiking or whatever else 
>on BLM land and found one. Where you were
>  breaking the law was if you went to the BLM land with the intent of looking 
>for arrowheads. I had the law with me so I pulled out a copy of ARPA and ask 
>him to show me where that was stated as I had read it numerous times and never 
>seen any thing written like that. He did not read anything just stated that I 
>was not a lawyer and probably to stupid to understand legal writing. I studied 
>Animal Science, Business, and Civil Engineering, so I am maybe not as smart as 
>a Federal employee, but I know how to read. Someone needs to have a lawyer 
>friend really read the new meteorite law, including all the fine print, 
>because the BLM people read the title and go from there, or they are trying to 
>run you off an area so they can go back and hunt themselves. Another story 
>about arrowheads and ARPA. I found a copy of the Forest Service laws on 
>artifacts. It stated that it was against the the to pick up chipped stone 
>projectiles ( arrowheads ). I contacted the
>  Forest Service and questioned it. They told me that ARPA was only a 
>guideline for federal agencies to use to make their own regulations. I said so 
>the Congress, Senate, and the President had studied, debated, and finally 
>passed the law so some GS2 employee of the Forest Service could change to to 
>what ever he wanted to. I have not seen the new laws but will track one down 
>soon and have a judge friend of mine write an opinion and sent it to the list. 
>Saludos Doug
> __
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Michael Mulgrew]

Peter, you either have unlimited rights or you have no rights.  "Laws"
(of which this meteorite BLM nonsense is not) do not grant people
rights.  Any "law" that benefits a government over its people has no
place in my book.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Peter Scherff  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My understanding of meteorite ownership law in the USA is that the
> meteorite belongs to the land owner. In the Old Woman case the government
> exercised its right to meteorites found on government land. Meteorite
> hunters have been lucky that the government has not claimed all finds. I
> think that the government would have been within the law to do so. So this
> new rule gives meteorite hunters an clear right to keep the meteorites they
> find (up to 10 pounds). This rule gives meteorite hunters more not less
> rights. It all depends on your point of view.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Grossman
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:06 PM
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
>
> All,
>
> For those of you who don't know, I contribute to this list as a private
> citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties that extend to
> oversight of curation and research programs.  I will be reading all posts on
> the list pertaining to this issue.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
>> I have been in communications with the BLM on and off all day.  Art,
>> thank for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and
>> thought I had this set correctly!
>>
>> Here is the first response:
>>
>> Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the time it
>> takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the application. This
>> would be determined by the field office manager after the application
>> is submitted and reviewed. These fees would be estimated for you prior
>> to the processing of the application, and would include monitoring
>> fees as well.  The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees
>> would be on page 2 when a permit is issued.  Some examples of what the
>> fees would be can be found on the following web site and one example
>> is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You
>> mentioned a "nation-wide" permit in your email.  BLM issues permits on
>> a local level, and at maximum could be on a state-wide level, for
>> lands that we administer in the Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
>> ---
>>
>> I am not going to post their second response but they are now aware of
>> some issues that may or may not change the wording.
>>
>> I feel it is imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on
>> this issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately,
>> without delay of some permit process.  While they are claiming media
>> sparked this, most of us knew it was coming, just did not know when or
>> how the wording would be.
>>
>> The current fee structure is twofold.  1.  The application / permit.
>> 2.  The monitoring fee.  Currently the fees will range from ~$100 to
>> ~$1100 for commercial huntersthose seeking profit.  This is based
>> on their current cost recovery methods.  I have both the application
>> and the fee schedule as example based on the above response.  If
>> anyone wants them shoot me a private email.
>>
>> The big issue for hunters is that this will be based on a regional
>> level where each district supervisor may or may not have special
>> conditions, etc.  Bottom line is that it will be required to have
>> permits in different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead
>> for professional hunters.  If hunters have to wait for a permit
>> process during a meteor event that produces meteorites, I feel science
>> looses.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Michael Mulgrew]

The bigger question, Carl, is who determines that what you've found
are indeed meteorites?  Do planetary geologists now work for the BLM?

Michael in so. Cal.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:55 PM,   wrote:
> Jim,
>  Did your correspondence include monetary penalties? Because like the 
> Obamacare sometimes penalties are cheaper than the alternative. And once 
> penalties are paid 
> The other obvious question is enforcement. What do they do when/ if caught? 
> Do they dump them out? Do they confiscate them?
> Obviously it is largely an honor system bu,t the bottom line is for new falls 
>  that in order to legally sell them you must provide a copy of the permit 
> otherwise they would taint a collection. Right?
> This is sad news.
> Carl
> meteoritemax
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Michael Mulgrew]

Shawn,

You mean you didn't hear about the hundreds of meteorite experts now
on staff at the BLM that are going to verify everyone's finds and
classify them so their "fair market value" can be assessed?  Oh wait,
me neither.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Shawn Alan  wrote:
> Hello Listers
>
> What is confusing for me is that its seem the new BLM rules make it 
> impossible for scientist and institutions to hunt and collect "meteorites" in 
> the name for science, I wonder why? You would think it would be just as easy 
> for scientist as it is with the casual collector. As speaking of a casual 
> collectors, how could one be 100% its a meteorite? At the end of the day, its 
> a stone until otherwise prove or disprove by someone with expertise.
>
> Shawn Alan
> IMCA 1633
> eBay Store
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html?
>
>
>
>
> [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
> Jeff Grossman jngrossman
> at gmail.com
> Thu Sep 20 19:06:11 EDT 2012
> * Previous message: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
> * Next message: [meteorite-list] Curiosity Update: Near
> Target Rock 'Matijevic'
> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject
> ] [ author ]
> 
>
> All,
>
> For those of you who don't know, I contribute to
> this list as a private
> citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties
> that extend to
> oversight of curation and research programs. I will be
> reading all
> posts on the list pertaining to this issue.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
>
>>I have been in
> communications with the BLM on and off all day. Art,
>
>>thank
> for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and
>
>>thought I had this set correctly!
>
>>
>
>>Here is the first response:
>
>>
>
>>Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the
> time it
>
>>takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the
> application. This
>
>>would be determined by the field office
> manager after the application
>
>>is submitted and reviewed.
> These fees would be estimated for you prior
>
>>to the
> processing of the application, and would include monitoring
>
>>fees as well. The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees
>
>>would be on page 2 when a permit is issued. Some examples of
> what the
>
>>fees would be can be found on the following web
> site and one example
>
>>is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You
>
>>mentioned a “nation-wide” permit in your email. BLM
> issues permits on
>
>>a local level, and at maximum could be on
> a state-wide level, for
>
>>lands that we administer in the
> Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
>
>>---
>
>>
>
>>I am not going to post their second
> response but they are now aware of
>
>>some issues that may or
> may not change the wording.
>
>>
>
>>I feel it is
> imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on
>
>>this
> issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately,
>
>>without delay of some permit process. While they are
> claiming media
>
>>sparked this, most of us knew it was coming,
> just did not know when or
>
>>how the wording would be.
>
>>
>
>>The current fee structure is twofold. 1.
> The application / permit.
>
>>2. The monitoring fee. Currently
> the fees will range from ~$100 to
>
>>~$1100 for commercial
> huntersthose seeking profit. This is based
>
>>on their
> current cost recovery methods. I have both the application
>
>>and the fee schedule as example based on the above response. If
>
>>anyone wants them shoot me a private email.
>
>>
>
>>The big issue for hunters is that this
> will be based on a regional
>
>>level where each district
> supervisor may or may not have special
>
>>conditions, etc.
> Bottom line is that it will be required to have
>
>>permits in
> different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead
>
>>for professional hunters. If hunters have to wait for a permit
>
>>process during a meteor event that produces meteorites, I
> feel science
>
>>looses.
>
>>
>
>>Regards,
>
>>
>
>>Jim
>
>>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
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> Target Rock 'Matijevic'
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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM

[Michael Mulgrew]

As I understand it, this new memo from the BLM is not a law.  Last I
checked the BLM does not have the power to write laws.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Doug Achim  wrote:
>
> I live in Southern New Mexico. I ran about 100 sections, part of a larger
> ranch for a little over 5 years( 1999 to 2004) The part I ran was almost all
> classified as Wilderness Study Area (WSA). Look up the rules for WSA. The
> only time there was anyone in the area that was not there to visit me was
> hunting season. The hunters drove all over off road , left their camps a
> mess when they left, generally trashed the place. I begged the BLM to come
> bust somebody so I could spread the word and maybe get everyone to follow
> the rules. Never once did a BLM person show up during the 5 years, except
> some old volutiers and all they did was drive around and sometimes pick up
> some trash. In 2004 there was one BLM Agent ( The ones who carry guns) to
> cover all of southern New Mexico. Border Patrol was a different matter.
> There were more Border Patrol on the ranch daily than illegals passed
> through yearly. They mostly were hunting arrowheads, shooting rabbits, or
>  picnicking. I collect arrowheads. I have all the laws concerning
> artifacts in the binder made up for my files. ARPA laws state in is not
> againt the law to pick up arrowheads on the surface. ( ARPA was passed in
> 1979, Jimmy Crater was the president and he was an arrowhead collector). He
> refused to sign ARPA stating that he did not some Boy Scout arrested for
> picking an arrowhead up. So it was changed to exclude arrowhead hunting,
> only arrowheads nothing else, and that is stated a couple places in the law.
> I had a friend in another BLM area got harassed by a BLM person, so I decide
> to check in person. There was not one person in the Las Cruces BLM office
> who could tell me anything except that you could not do it. It took me weeks
> to find the Agent, and he told me a lot of different things. The one that
> like was it was not against the law to pick up an arrowhead if you were
> working, hiking or whatever else on BLM land and found one. Where you were
>  breaking the law was if you went to the BLM land with the intent of
> looking for arrowheads. I had the law with me so I pulled out a copy of ARPA
> and ask him to show me where that was stated as I had read it numerous times
> and never seen any thing written like that. He did not read anything just
> stated that I was not a lawyer and probably to stupid to understand legal
> writing. I studied Animal Science, Business, and Civil Engineering, so I am
> maybe not as smart as a Federal employee, but I know how to read. Someone
> needs to have a lawyer friend really read the new meteorite law, including
> all the fine print, because the BLM people read the title and go from there,
> or they are trying to run you off an area so they can go back and hunt
> themselves. Another story about arrowheads and ARPA. I found a copy of the
> Forest Service laws on artifacts. It stated that it was against the the to
> pick up chipped stone projectiles ( arrowheads ). I contacted the
>  Forest Service and questioned it. They told me that ARPA was only a
> guideline for federal agencies to use to make their own regulations. I said
> so the Congress, Senate, and the President had studied, debated, and finally
> passed the law so some GS2 employee of the Forest Service could change to to
> what ever he wanted to. I have not seen the new laws but will track one down
> soon and have a judge friend of mine write an opionon and sent it to the
> list. Saludos Doug
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Jim Wooddell]

To the best of my knowledge and from my point of view, the federal
government has never impeded the recovery of meteorites.  People have
always assumed 25 pounds per day based on other rules.  No one really
had any issue.  There has always been internet chatter about whether
it was legal or not, stories that could not be proved.  Everyone knew
at anytime they could be challenged in regards to ownership (and still
can be).
So, to say more, not less, is not really correct.
These new rules did clarify the detector use issue.

So, a question begs.  How many professional meteorite hunters are
in the USA that actively hunt for profit???  I can count the ones I
know on my hands.  How many showed up to the recent fall, Battle
Mountain?  According the nice report from Larry Atkins, what was
it...about 16 people total?  So the BLM is doing  this for a few
handfuls of people!  At it's best it is silly and an absolute waste of
taxpayer money.  I am guessing there are less than 200 "professional"
hunters in the USA and the real number is probably less than 50.

To think this is an issue that derserves national action is nuts.
They can not enforce the rules they have now clearly, and they are
just piling on more oppressive rules they can not enforce!  And if
they nail the wrong guy, it would go to the highest court of the land
and  likely get thrown out.
The Old Women case was a joke and not handled well at all by the defense.

Kind regards!

Jim





On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Peter Scherff  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My understanding of meteorite ownership law in the USA is that the
> meteorite belongs to the land owner. In the Old Woman case the government
> exercised its right to meteorites found on government land. Meteorite
> hunters have been lucky that the government has not claimed all finds. I
> think that the government would have been within the law to do so. So this
> new rule gives meteorite hunters an clear right to keep the meteorites they
> find (up to 10 pounds). This rule gives meteorite hunters more not less
> rights. It all depends on your point of view.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Grossman
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:06 PM
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
>
> All,
>
> For those of you who don't know, I contribute to this list as a private
> citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties that extend to
> oversight of curation and research programs.  I will be reading all posts on
> the list pertaining to this issue.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
>> I have been in communications with the BLM on and off all day.  Art,
>> thank for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and
>> thought I had this set correctly!
>>
>> Here is the first response:
>>
>> Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the time it
>> takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the application. This
>> would be determined by the field office manager after the application
>> is submitted and reviewed. These fees would be estimated for you prior
>> to the processing of the application, and would include monitoring
>> fees as well.  The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees
>> would be on page 2 when a permit is issued.  Some examples of what the
>> fees would be can be found on the following web site and one example
>> is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You
>> mentioned a "nation-wide" permit in your email.  BLM issues permits on
>> a local level, and at maximum could be on a state-wide level, for
>> lands that we administer in the Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
>> ---
>>
>> I am not going to post their second response but they are now aware of
>> some issues that may or may not change the wording.
>>
>> I feel it is imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on
>> this issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately,
>> without delay of some permit process.  While they are claiming media
>> sparked this, most of us knew it was coming, just did not know when or
>> how the wording would be.
>>
>> The current fee structure is twofold.  1.  The application / permit.
>> 2.  The monitoring fee.  Currently the fees will range from ~$100 to
>> ~$1100 for commercial huntersthose seeking profit.  This is based
>> on their current cost recovery methods.  I have both the application
>> and the fee schedule as example based on the above response.  If
>> anyone wants them shoot me a private email.
>>
>> The big issue for hunters is that this will be based on a regional
>> level where each district supervisor may or may not have special
>> conditions, etc.  Bottom line is that it will be required to have
>> permits in different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead
>> for p

Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - Lunar, Brachinite, Ureilite, Diogenite, OC's, Oman and NWA

[karmaka]

Congratulations, Rob !!!

Impatiently waiting for more news about this fall...

Martin
 
 
Von: "Rob Lenssen" 
 An: "'Galactic Stone & Ironworks'" , "'Meteorite 
List'" 
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - Lunar, Brachinite, 
Ureilite, Diogenite, OC's, Oman and NWA
 Datum: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 16:56:16 +0200
 
Thanks for letting us know Mike!
 
 Please note that the new NWA 7449 is a 2009 "fall" that went unnoticed.
 I'm preparing a webpage about it and will present it to you in some time.
 
 All the best,
 Rob Lenssen
 www.AsteroidChippings.com 
 
 
 -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
 Van: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Namens Galactic Stone &
 Ironworks
 Verzonden: vrijdag 21 september 2012 16:32
 Aan: Meteorite List
 Onderwerp: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - Lunar, Brachinite,
 Ureilite, Diogenite, OC's, Oman and NWA
 
 Hi Bulletin Watchers,
 
 21 new approvals were published today.  20 are from Oman and one is from
 NWA.
 
 The approvals include a lunar, a handful of achondrites, and some OC's.
 
 Linkaroni -
 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=&sfor=names&ants=&falls=&vali
 ds=&stype=contains&lrec=50&map=ge&browse=&country=All&srt=name&categ=All&mbl
 ist=All&rect=&phot=&snew=1&pnt=Normal%20table&dr=&page=0
 
 Best regards,
 
 MikeG
 
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Peter Scherff]

Hi,

My understanding of meteorite ownership law in the USA is that the
meteorite belongs to the land owner. In the Old Woman case the government
exercised its right to meteorites found on government land. Meteorite
hunters have been lucky that the government has not claimed all finds. I
think that the government would have been within the law to do so. So this
new rule gives meteorite hunters an clear right to keep the meteorites they
find (up to 10 pounds). This rule gives meteorite hunters more not less
rights. It all depends on your point of view. 

Thanks,

Peter

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Grossman
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:06 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

All,

For those of you who don't know, I contribute to this list as a private
citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties that extend to
oversight of curation and research programs.  I will be reading all posts on
the list pertaining to this issue.

Jeff

On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
> I have been in communications with the BLM on and off all day.  Art, 
> thank for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and 
> thought I had this set correctly!
>
> Here is the first response:
>
> Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the time it 
> takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the application. This 
> would be determined by the field office manager after the application 
> is submitted and reviewed. These fees would be estimated for you prior 
> to the processing of the application, and would include monitoring 
> fees as well.  The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees 
> would be on page 2 when a permit is issued.  Some examples of what the 
> fees would be can be found on the following web site and one example 
> is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You 
> mentioned a "nation-wide" permit in your email.  BLM issues permits on 
> a local level, and at maximum could be on a state-wide level, for 
> lands that we administer in the Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
> ---
>
> I am not going to post their second response but they are now aware of 
> some issues that may or may not change the wording.
>
> I feel it is imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on 
> this issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately, 
> without delay of some permit process.  While they are claiming media 
> sparked this, most of us knew it was coming, just did not know when or 
> how the wording would be.
>
> The current fee structure is twofold.  1.  The application / permit.
> 2.  The monitoring fee.  Currently the fees will range from ~$100 to
> ~$1100 for commercial huntersthose seeking profit.  This is based 
> on their current cost recovery methods.  I have both the application 
> and the fee schedule as example based on the above response.  If 
> anyone wants them shoot me a private email.
>
> The big issue for hunters is that this will be based on a regional 
> level where each district supervisor may or may not have special 
> conditions, etc.  Bottom line is that it will be required to have 
> permits in different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead 
> for professional hunters.  If hunters have to wait for a permit 
> process during a meteor event that produces meteorites, I feel science 
> looses.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim
>

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Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - Lunar, Brachinite, Ureilite, Diogenite, OC's, Oman and NWA

[Rob Lenssen]

Thanks for letting us know Mike!

Please note that the new NWA 7449 is a 2009 "fall" that went unnoticed.
I'm preparing a webpage about it and will present it to you in some time.

All the best,
Rob Lenssen
www.AsteroidChippings.com 


-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Namens Galactic Stone &
Ironworks
Verzonden: vrijdag 21 september 2012 16:32
Aan: Meteorite List
Onderwerp: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - Lunar, Brachinite,
Ureilite, Diogenite, OC's, Oman and NWA

Hi Bulletin Watchers,

21 new approvals were published today.  20 are from Oman and one is from
NWA.

The approvals include a lunar, a handful of achondrites, and some OC's.

Linkaroni -
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=&sfor=names&ants=&falls=&vali
ds=&stype=contains&lrec=50&map=ge&browse=&country=All&srt=name&categ=All&mbl
ist=All&rect=&phot=&snew=1&pnt=Normal%20table&dr=&page=0

Best regards,

MikeG

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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Adam Hupe]

Links:

http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/capitalgainstax/ss/capital-gains-tax-rates_4.htm
Gold and Silver Are Taxed as Collectibles
Gold and silver bullion, such as American Eagle gold coins, Canadian Gold Maple 
Leaf coins, and South African Krugerrand gold coins, are taxed at the same 
capital gains rate as collectibles.  This 
includes Gold ETFs and Silver ETFs.  Investors make a very real mistake 
assuming they will be able to pay the lower capital gains tax rate that 
is paid on stocks and bonds, sometimes causing them to experience 
painful surprises come tax day.



Here is a link :

http://www.ehow.com/info_7814465_tax-rules-selling-gold-coins.html

1099-B
* As of 2010, sales of gold bullion did not need to be reported on a 
Form 1099-B unless they conform with Commodity Futures TradingCommission (CFTC) 
futures contract specifications, which include requirements for 
quantity, purity and weight. Under the rules for 1099-B, though, sales 
in a 24-hour period must be aggregated to determine whether they fit the CFTC 
requirements. Exchanges of bullion for other goods or services 
also need not be reported unless they are made on a qualifying barter 
exchange.
Changes in the Law
* The health care reform act signed by President Obama in 2010 includes 
a provision that will change the way gold bullion dealers 
operate. Effective in the 2012 tax year, any purchase of gold bullion 
over $600 by a dealer will have to be reported on Form 1099-B. According to ABC 
News, this change in the law will vastly increase the number of 
1099s that must be required and will provide the federal government with much 
more detailed information about dealer purchases of bullion.

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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[cdtucson]

Jeff, I would say that given your position and all you've done for us, we are 
in very good hands. A huge THANK YOU  for all you do. 
Sincerely,
Carl
meteoritemax

--
Cheers

 Jeff Grossman  wrote: 
> All,
> 
> For those of you who don't know, I contribute to this list as a private 
> citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties that extend to 
> oversight of curation and research programs.  I will be reading all 
> posts on the list pertaining to this issue.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
> > I have been in communications with the BLM on and off all day.  Art,
> > thank for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and
> > thought I had this set correctly!
> >
> > Here is the first response:
> >
> > Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the time it
> > takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the application. This
> > would be determined by the field office manager after the application
> > is submitted and reviewed. These fees would be estimated for you prior
> > to the processing of the application, and would include monitoring
> > fees as well.  The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees
> > would be on page 2 when a permit is issued.  Some examples of what the
> > fees would be can be found on the following web site and one example
> > is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You
> > mentioned a “nation-wide” permit in your email.  BLM issues permits on
> > a local level, and at maximum could be on a state-wide level, for
> > lands that we administer in the Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
> > ---
> >
> > I am not going to post their second response but they are now aware of
> > some issues that may or may not change the wording.
> >
> > I feel it is imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on
> > this issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately,
> > without delay of some permit process.  While they are claiming media
> > sparked this, most of us knew it was coming, just did not know when or
> > how the wording would be.
> >
> > The current fee structure is twofold.  1.  The application / permit.
> > 2.  The monitoring fee.  Currently the fees will range from ~$100 to
> > ~$1100 for commercial huntersthose seeking profit.  This is based
> > on their current cost recovery methods.  I have both the application
> > and the fee schedule as example based on the above response.  If
> > anyone wants them shoot me a private email.
> >
> > The big issue for hunters is that this will be based on a regional
> > level where each district supervisor may or may not have special
> > conditions, etc.  Bottom line is that it will be required to have
> > permits in different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead
> > for professional hunters.  If hunters have to wait for a permit
> > process during a meteor event that produces meteorites, I feel science
> > looses.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> 
> __
> 
> Visit the Archives at 
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Adam Hupe]

If you find a 10.01 pound meteorite on federal land, do not take a picture of 
it with your cell phone if you are a poacher.  The GPS coordinates will be 
imbedded in the image.  The Onstar or other system in your car will also track 
every one of your moves. This is how rental car agencies can tell if you have 
taken one of their cars off-road.


The new bullion form for gold, platinum and silver  is a 1099-B not a 1009-B as 
I stated in my last email. Yes, this is a real tax increase and was hidden in 
2010 under the new health care reform.  Talk to your accountant in order to 
avoid fines and penalties.  A worst case nightmare would be a 1099-M form for 
meteorites.  Just kidding although it may be another way for the hogs at the 
feeding through to take another bite.

Take Care,

Adam
 



- Original Message -
From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks 
To: Shawn Alan 
Cc: Meteorite Central 
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

Hi List,

The new rule is missing a chromosome.  (to put it nicely)

But, if they are going to let this madness stand, then at least they
should distinguish between a fresh fall and old finds.  Perhaps an
exception can be made for the recovery of new falls?  If a new fall
happens over BLM land, the manager for that area could be informed and
he/she could waive the rule for that event.

Also, I agree with what some of the others here have already said.
All this will do is push meteorite hunting into the black market -
just like arrowheads and fossils.

Authority : "Do you have paperwork for that arrowhead/fossil?"

Finder : "No, it comes from an old collection back in the 1930's, it's
grandfathered in."  (wink)

Best regards,

MikeG

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On 9/21/12, Shawn Alan  wrote:
> Hello Listers
>
> What is confusing for me is that its seem the new BLM rules make it
> impossible for scientist and institutions to hunt and collect "meteorites"
> in the name for science, I wonder why? You would think it would be just as
> easy for scientist as it is with the casual collector. As speaking of a
> casual collectors, how could one be 100% its a meteorite? At the end of the
> day, its a stone until otherwise prove or disprove by someone with
> expertise.
>
> Shawn Alan
> IMCA 1633
> eBay Store
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html?
>
>
>
>
> [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
> Jeff Grossman jngrossman
> at gmail.com
> Thu Sep 20 19:06:11 EDT 2012
>     * Previous message: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
>     * Next message: [meteorite-list] Curiosity Update: Near
> Target Rock 'Matijevic'
>     * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject
> ] [ author ]
> 
>
> All,
>
> For those of you who don't know, I contribute to
> this list as a private
> citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties
> that extend to
> oversight of curation and research programs. I will be
> reading all
> posts on the list pertaining to this issue.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
>
>>I have been in
> communications with the BLM on and off all day. Art,
>
>>thank
> for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and
>
>>thought I had this set correctly!
>
>>
>
>>Here is the first response:
>
>>
>
>>Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the
> time it
>
>>takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the
> application. This
>
>>would be determined by the field office
> manager after the application
>
>>is submitted and reviewed.
> These fees would be estimated for you prior
>
>>to the
> processing of the application, and would include monitoring
>
>>fees as well. The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees
>
>>would be on page 2 when a permit is issued. Some examples of
> what the
>
>>fees would be can be found on the following web
> site and one example
>
>>is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You
>
>>mentioned a “nation-wide” permit in your email. BLM
> issues permits on
>
>>a local level, and at maximum could be on
> a state-wide level, for
>
>>lands that we administer in the
> Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
>
>>---
>
>>
>
>>I am not going to post their second
> response but they are now aware of
>
>>some issues that may or
> may not change the wording.
>
>>
>
>>I feel it is
> imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on
>
>>this
> issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately,
>
>>without delay of some permit process. While they are
> claiming media
>
>>sparked this, most of us knew it was coming,
> just did not know when or
>
>>how the wording would be.
>
>>
>
>>T

[meteorite-list] New "Big Impact" Theory (Eltanin asteroid impact)

[Paul H.]

In “New "Big Impact" Theory” at
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2012-September/087243.html
Sterling K. Webb  wrote:

“New "Big Impact" theory. In case you find the 
references to a "new Ice Age" puzzling, I'll remind 
you that it's the Ice Age that we in right now. Yes, 
friends, we are in an Ice Age, at 5-7 C. below the 
long-term norm.”

and

“Did a 'Forgotten' Meteor Have a Deadly, Icy Double-Punch?”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120919103612.htm 

This article refers to:

Goff, J., C. Chague-Goff, M. Archer, D. Dominey-Howes, 
and C. Turney, 2012, The Eltanin asteroid impact: 
possible South Pacific palaeomegatsunami footprint 
and potential implications for the Pliocene-Pleistocene 
transition. Journal of Quaternary Science. Article first 
published online: 3 SEP 2012.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jqs.2571/abstract

Related to this is an interesting paper published online
in Geology. It is:

Gao, C., J. H. McAndrews, X. Wang, J. Menzies, C. L. Turton,
B. D. Wood, J. Pei, and C. Kodors, 2012, Glaciation of North 
America in the James Bay Lowland, Canada, 3.5 Ma. geology.
First published online September 4, 2012
http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/early/2012/09/04/G33092.1.abstract

This provides evidence of glaciation in North America of
continental glaciations that are of a magnitude that is likely 
comparable to Pleistocene glaciations started about 3.5 
million years ago. This glaciation coincides with the 
documented intensification of glaciation in the northwest 
Pacific region about 3.45 million years ago. Thus, "Ice Ages" 
were already in process a million years before the Eltanin 
asteroid impact and it may have simply only accentuated, 
if anything at all, climatic changes that had already started.

Best wishes,

Paul H.
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Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks]

Hi List,

The new rule is missing a chromosome.  (to put it nicely)

But, if they are going to let this madness stand, then at least they
should distinguish between a fresh fall and old finds.  Perhaps an
exception can be made for the recovery of new falls?  If a new fall
happens over BLM land, the manager for that area could be informed and
he/she could waive the rule for that event.

Also, I agree with what some of the others here have already said.
All this will do is push meteorite hunting into the black market -
just like arrowheads and fossils.

Authority : "Do you have paperwork for that arrowhead/fossil?"

Finder : "No, it comes from an old collection back in the 1930's, it's
grandfathered in."  (wink)

Best regards,

MikeG

-- 
-
Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
-



On 9/21/12, Shawn Alan  wrote:
> Hello Listers
>
> What is confusing for me is that its seem the new BLM rules make it
> impossible for scientist and institutions to hunt and collect "meteorites"
> in the name for science, I wonder why? You would think it would be just as
> easy for scientist as it is with the casual collector. As speaking of a
> casual collectors, how could one be 100% its a meteorite? At the end of the
> day, its a stone until otherwise prove or disprove by someone with
> expertise.
>
> Shawn Alan
> IMCA 1633
> eBay Store
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html?
>
>
>
>
> [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
> Jeff Grossman jngrossman
> at gmail.com
> Thu Sep 20 19:06:11 EDT 2012
> * Previous message: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
> * Next message: [meteorite-list] Curiosity Update: Near
> Target Rock 'Matijevic'
> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject
> ] [ author ]
> 
>
> All,
>
> For those of you who don't know, I contribute to
> this list as a private
> citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties
> that extend to
> oversight of curation and research programs. I will be
> reading all
> posts on the list pertaining to this issue.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
>
>>I have been in
> communications with the BLM on and off all day. Art,
>
>>thank
> for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and
>
>>thought I had this set correctly!
>
>>
>
>>Here is the first response:
>
>>
>
>>Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the
> time it
>
>>takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the
> application. This
>
>>would be determined by the field office
> manager after the application
>
>>is submitted and reviewed.
> These fees would be estimated for you prior
>
>>to the
> processing of the application, and would include monitoring
>
>>fees as well. The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees
>
>>would be on page 2 when a permit is issued. Some examples of
> what the
>
>>fees would be can be found on the following web
> site and one example
>
>>is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You
>
>>mentioned a “nation-wide” permit in your email. BLM
> issues permits on
>
>>a local level, and at maximum could be on
> a state-wide level, for
>
>>lands that we administer in the
> Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
>
>>---
>
>>
>
>>I am not going to post their second
> response but they are now aware of
>
>>some issues that may or
> may not change the wording.
>
>>
>
>>I feel it is
> imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on
>
>>this
> issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately,
>
>>without delay of some permit process. While they are
> claiming media
>
>>sparked this, most of us knew it was coming,
> just did not know when or
>
>>how the wording would be.
>
>>
>
>>The current fee structure is twofold. 1.
> The application / permit.
>
>>2. The monitoring fee. Currently
> the fees will range from ~$100 to
>
>>~$1100 for commercial
> huntersthose seeking profit. This is based
>
>>on their
> current cost recovery methods. I have both the application
>
>>and the fee schedule as example based on the above response. If
>
>>anyone wants them shoot me a private email.
>
>>
>
>>The big issue for hunters is that this
> will be based on a regional
>
>>level where each district
> supervisor may or may not have special
>
>>conditions, etc.
> Bottom line is that it will be required to have
>
>>permits in
> different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead
>
>>for professional hunters. If hunters have to wait for a permit
>
>>process during a meteor event that produces meteorites, I
> feel science
>
>>looses.
>
>>
>
>>Regards,
>
>>
>
>>Jim
>
>>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
> * Previous message: [meteorite-list] New BLM Ru

[meteorite-list] BLM

[Doug Achim]

I live in Southern New Mexico. I ran about 100 sections, part of a larger ranch 
for a little over 5 years( 1999 to 2004) The part I ran was almost all 
classified as Wilderness Study Area (WSA). Look up the rules for WSA. The only 
time there was anyone in the area that was not there to visit me was hunting 
season. The hunters drove all over off road , left their camps a mess when they 
left, generally trashed the place. I begged the BLM to come bust somebody so I 
could spread the word and maybe get everyone to follow the rules. Never once 
did a BLM person show up during the 5 years, except some old volutiers and all 
they did was drive around and sometimes pick up some trash. In 2004 there was 
one BLM Agent ( The ones who carry guns) to cover all of southern New 
Mexico. Border Patrol was a different matter. There were more Border Patrol on 
the ranch daily than illegals passed through yearly. They mostly were hunting 
arrowheads, shooting rabbits, or
 picnicking. I collect arrowheads. I have all the laws concerning artifacts in 
the binder made up for my files. ARPA laws state in is not againt the law to 
pick up arrowheads on the surface. ( ARPA was passed in 1979, Jimmy Crater was 
the president and he was an arrowhead collector). He refused to sign ARPA 
stating that he did not some Boy Scout arrested for picking an arrowhead up. So 
it was changed to exclude arrowhead hunting, only arrowheads nothing else, and 
that is stated a couple places in the law. I had a friend in another BLM area 
got harassed by a BLM person, so I decide to check in person. There was not one 
person in the Las Cruces BLM office who could tell me anything except that you 
could not do it. It took me weeks to find the Agent, and he told me a lot of 
different things. The one that like was it was not against the law to pick up 
an arrowhead if you were working, hiking or whatever else on BLM land and found 
one. Where you were
 breaking the law was if you went to the BLM land with the intent of looking 
for arrowheads. I had the law with me so I pulled out a copy of ARPA and ask 
him to show me where that was stated as I had read it numerous times and never 
seen any thing written like that. He did not read anything just stated that I 
was not a lawyer and probably to stupid to understand legal writing. I studied 
Animal Science, Business, and Civil Engineering, so I am maybe not as smart as 
a Federal employee, but I know how to read. Someone needs to have a lawyer 
friend really read the new meteorite law, including all the fine print, because 
the BLM people read the title and go from there, or they are trying to run you 
off an area so they can go back and hunt themselves. Another story about 
arrowheads and ARPA. I found a copy of the Forest Service laws on artifacts. It 
stated that it was against the the to pick up chipped stone projectiles ( 
arrowheads ). I contacted the
 Forest Service and questioned it. They told me that ARPA was only a guideline 
for federal agencies to use to make their own regulations. I said so the 
Congress, Senate, and the President had studied, debated, and finally passed 
the law so some GS2 employee of the Forest Service could change to to what ever 
he wanted to. I have not seen the new laws but will track one down soon and 
have a judge friend of mine write an opionon and sent it to the list. Saludos 
Doug
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[meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

[Shawn Alan]

Hello Listers

What is confusing for me is that its seem the new BLM rules make it 
impossible for scientist and institutions to hunt and collect "meteorites" in 
the name for science, I wonder why? You would think it would be just as easy 
for scientist as it is with the casual collector. As speaking of a casual 
collectors, how could one be 100% its a meteorite? At the end of the day, its a 
stone until otherwise prove or disprove by someone with expertise.

Shawn Alan
IMCA 1633
eBay Store
http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html?




[meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
Jeff Grossman jngrossman 
at gmail.com 
Thu Sep 20 19:06:11 EDT 2012 
* Previous message: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules  
* Next message: [meteorite-list] Curiosity Update: Near 
Target Rock 'Matijevic'  
* Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject 
] [ author ] 


All, 

For those of you who don't know, I contribute to 
this list as a private 
citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties 
that extend to 
oversight of curation and research programs. I will be 
reading all 
posts on the list pertaining to this issue. 

Jeff 

On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote: 

>I have been in 
communications with the BLM on and off all day. Art, 

>thank 
for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and 

>thought I had this set correctly! 

>

>Here is the first response: 

>

>Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the 
time it 

>takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the 
application. This 

>would be determined by the field office 
manager after the application 

>is submitted and reviewed. 
These fees would be estimated for you prior 

>to the 
processing of the application, and would include monitoring 

>fees as well. The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees 

>would be on page 2 when a permit is issued. Some examples of 
what the 

>fees would be can be found on the following web 
site and one example 

>is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You 

>mentioned a “nation-wide” permit in your email. BLM 
issues permits on 

>a local level, and at maximum could be on 
a state-wide level, for 

>lands that we administer in the 
Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon 

>--- 

>

>I am not going to post their second 
response but they are now aware of 

>some issues that may or 
may not change the wording. 

>

>I feel it is 
imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on 

>this 
issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately, 

>without delay of some permit process. While they are 
claiming media 

>sparked this, most of us knew it was coming, 
just did not know when or 

>how the wording would be. 

>

>The current fee structure is twofold. 1. 
The application / permit. 

>2. The monitoring fee. Currently 
the fees will range from ~$100 to 

>~$1100 for commercial 
huntersthose seeking profit. This is based 

>on their 
current cost recovery methods. I have both the application 

>and the fee schedule as example based on the above response. If 

>anyone wants them shoot me a private email. 

>

>The big issue for hunters is that this 
will be based on a regional 

>level where each district 
supervisor may or may not have special 

>conditions, etc. 
Bottom line is that it will be required to have 

>permits in 
different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead 

>for professional hunters. If hunters have to wait for a permit 

>process during a meteor event that produces meteorites, I 
feel science 

>looses. 

>

>Regards, 

>

>Jim 

>






* Previous message: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules  
* Next message: [meteorite-list] Curiosity Update: Near 
Target Rock 'Matijevic'  
* Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject 
] [ author ] 


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information about the Meteorite-list mailing list    
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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM New Meteorite Hunting Rules

[Adam Hupe]

I have always stated that when meteorites are treated like treasure, the 
self-proclaimed and sometimes elected rulers of U.S. soil will treat them the 
same.

Yep, they just can't stay away from the feeding trough.  Permits and fines are 
usually just another way to tax fellow "comrades."   I want to know who the 
group is that decided these new rules (taxes) were necessary in order to 
"protect" these meteorites?  All they will have accomplished in the end is 
pushing the finding of this "treasure" underground.  Perhaps some well placed 
letters to our representatives will result in them be fired for wasting time 
and taxpayers money on such a thin market.


Meteorites are nothing but another commodity as far as they are concerned.  
Excuse me, I meant to say collectable which can be taxed in the highest capitol 
gains bracket.  Many do not know that the commodities gold,silver and platinum 
are no longer considered investments by those in charge and have been secretly 
moved into the collectables bracket in the new health care reform law.  A form 
called a 1009-B (B for bullion) will be issued to purchasers of these 
commodities, I mean collectables.  Don't get caught with gold in your IRA or as 
part of your investment portfolio.  What will be the next collectable, perhaps 
pork bellies or heating oil?  Seems un-American to me. 

That's my rant for the day. Just had to vent some anger over this poor 
situation brought on by others!


Adam      

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[meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

[valparint]

Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: NWA 5343

Contributed by: Stephan Kambach

http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp
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Re: [meteorite-list] Space Shuttle Endeavor

[Graham Ensor]

Great shot Michaelmust have been quite an emotional moment.

Graham

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Michael Farmer  wrote:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/29494159@N00/8007594028/in/photostream
>
> My wife took this photo from U of A this morning as the Space Shuttle flew 
> overhead!
> Michael Farmer
>
> Sent from my iPad
> __
>
> Visit the Archives at 
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
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