Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
I think collectors might be confusing COAs with ID cards. We are lucky that ID cards suffice in the meteorite market most of the time. As far as I know, nobody has passed off counterfeit ID cards from my collection yet. This would be like poking a stick into a beehive as far as I am concerned. The only COAs I have provided that were printed by myself were for crumbs or cutting dust encased in laminated collectors cards. The pieces were so small that I felt collectors would appreciate a little more assurance. They are also serialized with the certification statement on the back. The only other COAs I have provided came with some NWA 5000 specimens. These COAs came from an immensely-qualified independent grader. I had no input whatsoever on how individual specimens would be graded since many factors were independently taken into account. I have never graded any specimens myself. I have however provided comments when I feel a special feature needs to be pointed out. The grades that came on my ID cards were provided by researchers approved by the Meteoritical Society's Nomenclature Committee and can be referenced in the Bulletin. Despite popular belief, there are a few errors in the Bulletin so no system is perfect. I hope this clears things up, Kind Regards, Adam From: John higgins geohigg...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's ) Hi Mike, Adam, and List, Interesting opinions. You guys touched on a major issue in the Meteorite Community, and there are parts of your statements I don't agree with. I would really like to share how I feel about the subject. First of all Mike you said, I thought this was laughable for obvious reasons and a man who runs an auction house should know that 99% of COA's are not worth the paper they are printed on. I can go outside, grab a rock from my driveway, and print up an official-looking COA for it. Mike with all due respect, I don't agree with this. Why would you try to knock a dealers reputation? For example a meteorite sold by Mike Farmer or Greg Hupe is worth more than a meteorite that is sold without any provenance or COA. For example lets say unknown dealer X is selling a Howardite, and well known dealer Y is selling the same Howardite. Who do you think is going to realize a higher price? The well know dealer. Now if that meteorite losses it's COA from the dealer who sold it, what happens? Usually the meteorite immediately looses value, how can you explain this if the COA is not worth the paper it's printed on? For example a meteorite said to be from from the Bob Hagg collection without Bob's paperwork has a much lower value than a meteorite from the Bob Hagg collection with his COA right? So please extrapolate exactly what you mean and how you come to this conclusion. I strongly disagree with your opinion. Much of the value in meteorites is locked up in the provenance and not the meteorite itself in my opinion. I think what is much too overlooked is that a meteorite dealers reputation is the most important factor in meteorite prices. That includes the following they create, the friends they make, impressions that collectors get all translate into value and that it why most collectors demand individual COA's be issued with each meteorite sold. I think this makes a lot of sense because the process it takes to build a good reputation takes years. The piece of paper adds value. Of course a paper from Hagg is worth more than a COA from Joe Schmo. But to say the paper has no value is the most insane thing I ever heard. How else would you know if your buying pedigree meteorites from dealers who stand for integrity, honor and strive to provide the customer the best experience. A lot of new comers think that the value is in the meteorite itself, and then when they try to sell them, they are greatly let down and wonder why their meteorites don't fetch the same price that the other more well known dealers get all day long. Because it comes down to more than just the meteorite itself and taking it for face value. You fail to consider the amount of friends the advanced dealers had made over the years, the networking they have done and the awareness they have created about their meteorite and the way they are presented. And most importantly the way they make their customers feel is the most important factor to me. Is it just a roughly cut rock, sloppily thrown in a bag with a sharpie marking? OR IS IT A EXPERIENCE FOR THE CUSTOMER? The experience adds value, making the customer feel good is an integral part of any business, even meteorite dealing. The COA and provenance conveys that feeling to the customer. It makes them say WOW! I can't wait to see what this dealer has to offer me next. It gives them something to hold
Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
Yes Adam, provenance, COA, and ID cards can be very different things. Saying I got some specimens from Adam, Greg, or any number of the great people who do the collecting, purchasing, and classifying is never intended as a COA, but, it does assure others that it's not from the driveway, railway, or some cave somewhere. On 3:41:58 pm 03/24/12 Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: I think collectors might be confusing COAs with ID cards. We are lucky that ID cards suffice in the meteorite market most of the time. As far as I know, nobody has passed off counterfeit ID cards from my collection yet. This would be like poking a stick into a beehive as far as I am concerned. The only COAs I have provided that were printed by myself were for crumbs or cutting dust encased in laminated collectors cards. The pieces were so small that I felt collectors would appreciate a little more assurance. They are also serialized with the certification statement on the back. The only other COAs I have provided came with some NWA 5000 specimens. These COAs came from an immensely-qualified independent grader. I had no input whatsoever on how individual specimens would be graded since many factors were independently taken into account. I have never graded any specimens myself. I have however provided comments when I feel a special feature needs to be pointed out. The grades that came on my ID cards were provided by researchers approved by the Meteoritical Society's Nomenclature Committee and can be referenced in the Bulletin. Despite popular belief, there are a few errors in the Bulletin so no system is perfect. I hope this clears things up, Kind Regards, Adam From: John higgins geohigg...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecen tral.com Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's ) Hi Mike, Adam, and List, Interesting opinions. You guys touched on a major issue in the Meteorite Community, and there are parts of your statements I don't agree with. I would really like to share how I feel about the subject. First of all Mike you said, I thought this was laughable for obvious reasons and a man who runs an auction house should know that 99% of COA's are not worth the paper they are printed on. I can go outside, grab a rock from my driveway, and print up an official-looking COA for it. Mike with all due respect, I don't agree with this. Why would you try to knock a dealers reputation? For example a meteorite sold by Mike Farmer or Greg Hupe is worth more than a meteorite that is sold without any provenance or COA. For example lets say unknown dealer X is selling a Howardite, and well known dealer Y is selling the same Howardite. Who do you think is going to realize a higher price? The well know dealer. Now if that meteorite losses it's COA from the dealer who sold it, what happens? Usually the meteorite immediately looses value, how can you explain this if the COA is not worth the paper it's printed on? For example a meteorite said to be from from the Bob Hagg collection without Bob's paperwork has a much lower value than a meteorite from the Bob Hagg collection with his COA right? So please extrapolate exactly what you mean and how you come to this conclusion. I strongly disagree with your opinion. Much of the value in meteorites is locked up in the provenance and not the meteorite itself in my opinion. I think what is much too overlooked is that a meteorite dealers reputation is the most important factor in meteorite prices. That includes the following they create, the friends they make, impressions that collectors get all translate into value and that it why most collectors demand individual COA's be issued with each meteorite sold. I think this makes a lot of sense because the process it takes to build a good reputation takes years. The piece of paper adds value. Of course a paper from Hagg is worth more than a COA from Joe Schmo. But to say the paper has no value is the most insane thing I ever heard. How else would you know if your buying pedigree meteorites from dealers who stand for integrity, honor and strive to provide the customer the best experience. A lot of new comers think that the value is in the meteorite itself, and then when they try to sell them, they are greatly let down and wonder why their meteorites don't fetch the same price that the other more well known dealers get all day long. Because it comes down to more than just the meteorite itself and taking it for face value. You fail to consider the amount of friends the advanced dealers had made over the years, the networking they have done and the awareness they have created about their meteorite and the way they are presented. And most importantly the way they make their customers feel is the most important factor to me
Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
Hi Mike, Adam, and List, Interesting opinions. You guys touched on a major issue in the Meteorite Community, and there are parts of your statements I don't agree with. I would really like to share how I feel about the subject. First of all Mike you said, I thought this was laughable for obvious reasons and a man who runs an auction house should know that 99% of COA's are not worth the paper they are printed on. I can go outside, grab a rock from my driveway, and print up an official-looking COA for it. Mike with all due respect, I don't agree with this. Why would you try to knock a dealers reputation? For example a meteorite sold by Mike Farmer or Greg Hupe is worth more than a meteorite that is sold without any provenance or COA. For example lets say unknown dealer X is selling a Howardite, and well known dealer Y is selling the same Howardite. Who do you think is going to realize a higher price? The well know dealer. Now if that meteorite losses it's COA from the dealer who sold it, what happens? Usually the meteorite immediately looses value, how can you explain this if the COA is not worth the paper it's printed on? For example a meteorite said to be from from the Bob Hagg collection without Bob's paperwork has a much lower value than a meteorite from the Bob Hagg collection with his COA right? So please extrapolate exactly what you mean and how you come to this conclusion. I strongly disagree with your opinion. Much of the value in meteorites is locked up in the provenance and not the meteorite itself in my opinion. I think what is much too overlooked is that a meteorite dealers reputation is the most important factor in meteorite prices. That includes the following they create, the friends they make, impressions that collectors get all translate into value and that it why most collectors demand individual COA's be issued with each meteorite sold. I think this makes a lot of sense because the process it takes to build a good reputation takes years. The piece of paper adds value. Of course a paper from Hagg is worth more than a COA from Joe Schmo. But to say the paper has no value is the most insane thing I ever heard. How else would you know if your buying pedigree meteorites from dealers who stand for integrity, honor and strive to provide the customer the best experience. A lot of new comers think that the value is in the meteorite itself, and then when they try to sell them, they are greatly let down and wonder why their meteorites don't fetch the same price that the other more well known dealers get all day long. Because it comes down to more than just the meteorite itself and taking it for face value. You fail to consider the amount of friends the advanced dealers had made over the years, the networking they have done and the awareness they have created about their meteorite and the way they are presented. And most importantly the way they make their customers feel is the most important factor to me. Is it just a roughly cut rock, sloppily thrown in a bag with a sharpie marking? OR IS IT A EXPERIENCE FOR THE CUSTOMER? The experience adds value, making the customer feel good is an integral part of any business, even meteorite dealing. The COA and provenance conveys that feeling to the customer. It makes them say WOW! I can't wait to see what this dealer has to offer me next. It gives them something to hold onto other than just the meteorite itself. Sure you can put on narrow vision goggles and only focus on the meteorite itself, throwing everything else away and assigning absolutely no value as to how the meteorite ended up where it is, but I don't think that's a very scientific approach. It's all part of the story and how you ended up with the specimen is a big part of meteorites and collecting. I for one get very depressed when I buy a meteorite on eBay and it comes with no card! What happens if I lose the bag it's in or the marking wears off? what happens to the specimen, the value drops to 0. Cant sell it because you don't know what it is. And if you ever do want to sell it, how can you prove where it came from. The COA answers a lot of those questions, sure you can explain to kingdom come what it is, but it wont prove the origin for the 99% of meteorite collectors who demand provenance, and I don't blame them one bit. The value to any assigned meteorite is less without the papers. Now I will admit, it can all come down to perspective, when your dealing with small micro fragments, I sympathize with your view Mike, it's not worth the time or the expense to make a COA, but you can always give something, even a little piece of paper I hope, to say it came from you and what it is. Maybe comparing a micro to a macro is useless and it's like comparing Apples to Oranges... Two totally different perspectives that are neither right or wrong just are what they are, each of us our own independent opinions. Adam you said, A
Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
Hi John and List, I was not knocking any dealer's reputation, just expressing an opinion about COA's in general. I think we are blurring the line here between a specimen card and a COA. I like specimen cards. I am indifferent towards COA's. For example, you say that a meteorite from a well-known dealer is worth more than a similar meteorite offered by a lesser-known dealer. This is true to some extent, but that increase in worth comes from the seller of the meteorite and not the piece of paper that came with it. For example, an unscrupulous collector or dealer could easily forge a Hupe or Farmer specimen card. This is not US currency we are talking about that has built-in safeguards against counterfeiting. All it would take to turn any meteorite into a Hupe or Farmer meteorite is a laser printer, card stock paper, and Photoshop. Or, easier yet, a scanner. Scan an original specimen card and Photoshop in whatever details you want. This is not rocket science and most 12 year olds are computer savvy enough to do this. This is where provenance and dealer reputation is of the utmost importance, and neither of those things hinge solely on a piece of paper or cardstock. Everyone knows Bob Haag and the Hupes, and we all know they abide by the highest standards. They would never pass off a misrepresented meteorite and if they say they acquired it originally from collector X or dealer X, then you can take their word on it. The COA or specimen card is secondary. Ironic thing is, the perceived increased value of a meteorite that comes from a well-known dealer is only valid with knowledgeable buyers. A newbie who doesn't know a Hupe from John Smith and doesn't know or care where it came from, or chain of custody, or authenticity. I've bought specimens from you, the Hupes, Farmer, and dozens of other dealers and turned around and flipped those specimens for a profit - I am lesser known than those dealers, yet I realized a higher price for the specimen. Why? Because the market is a fickle mistress and there are a million buyers out there from newbies to veterans and each buyer has different criteria concerning what they regard as valuable. If I buy a slice of meteorite from you and then try to resell that slice, is it worth less or more? Who decides? I can offer it for X dollars and I may or may not get that price. It's up to the buyer to decide whether or not the specimen is worth the money. That is why the gentleman on Auction Kings paid $2000 for a $200 specimen and thought he got a great deal. If he's happy, then he did. I'm not knocking any dealer, specimen cards, or provenance. What I am knocking is COA's for meteorites. There is no governing body, not even the IMCA, that can grade or authenticate any meteorite with authority and then provide a COA that has any real meaning. That may change one day, but as of right now it's true. Give me any dealer's COA and I can reproduce a copy of it that is indistinguishable from the original. And that is the danger with COA's - they provide a false sense of security regarding the specimen's authenticity. The best safeguard against buying a fake or misrepresented meteorite is to buy only from reputable dealers - and buyers discover who those dealers are by doing their homework and by gaining experience with the market. I may be a lesser known dealer, but my track record is spotless regarding authenticity and will always remain so, because whether I am liked or not, my specimens are exactly what I say they are - from the tiniest speck to the biggest iron. I won't name names, but a few of the well known dealers do exactly what you say you don't like - they throw a specimen in a ziploc baggie, write on the baggie with a sharpie, and provide no specimen card or COA. When I first encountered this years ago, I was very surprised. I once bought a $1000 slice of Seymchan pallasite that came in a plain bubble mailer with no receipt, no card, no COA, and no packaging material to protect it. I was amazed that it arrived undamaged through USPS with no insurance or tracking. This was from a very well-known dealer, member of this List, IMCA member, and someone who was recently in the media. Needless to say, I haven't bought anything from that person since and probably will not buy from them again ever. I was lucky my specimen didn't get lost or damaged. John, I do agree with you 100% that all dealers should get together and provide some kind of standardized COA or authentication regime - it would greatly improve the integrity of the market. But, implementing such a regime would be problematic and I think that is why we have not seen this happen yet. For example, is a specimen really Zulu Queen, or just an NWA L-type chondrite? Who can tell? Only lab-work will tell, and not even the most trained eye can authenticate most meteorites. Until we find someone who has an electron microprobe and is willing to use that instrument for free to authenticate
Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
, What a great response, thanks for that. I greatly appreciate your comments. Mike I really love and enjoy buying your meteorites and they all come with ID cards. You always give a nice one, I think this debate comes down to the confusion over what is a ID card, compared to what is a COA and the umbrella of provenance it all falls under. I really feel that the paper adds a Cultural and Historical dimension to otherwise what would only be a Scientific object. It's important because the provenance can help add to the scientific value as well, it's like a tracking number. And can help you find out more information about the specimen in the future if you want to find out more. Now this is where a standardized data form comes into play and would immediately add value to all meteorites sold in the future. Wouldn't it be worth it to have some of the historical background as to how the meteorite came about other than what is stored on the meteoritical society data base? What if Joe Schmo ends up with a rare meteorite that originated from another collection and it looks a little funny, what should you be expected to do, test every specimen or trust the Provenance that comes with it? You have to then make a judgment call, first you evaluate who is Joe Schmo? Then you evaluate all the documents as well as the story that comes along with it. Or like you said you can already know Joe Schmoe and trust the guy or not. Now you say it's a big world of all different kinds of people looking to buy meteorites. Sure there is a BIG WORLD of meteorite collectors from every echelon of existence. It's fine if you want to focus on the newbies or those who don't know enough about provenance and reputation or those that don't even care. It's a free World, thank God last time I checked, people are free to choose to and do whatever they want at least for the most part in some countries. But don't you want to stand out among and impress all the advanced collectors and buyers that do care? That's a huge percentage of potential customers that your shafting by not providing supporting documentation. That why I think COA's, ID, Provenance whatever you choose to call it should be provided with each and every specimen. It might not add value for everybody, but it will to the ones who care, and I don't think there is a shortage of collectors who are passionate and care enough to say it's important. You say, sure anyone can scan and copy and make a fake COA, but I don't think it's that easy, how can you get the same paper, the same patina that you only get with age on that paper? I truly beg to differ on this. And if your worried about someone copying your COA then you should go the extra mile to make it copy deterrent. You are only hurting yourself if you make a flimsy photocopy that someone can easily duplicate. That all comes back round to your reputation. That should be your job as the seller to make sure you customer is confident that they are getting what you say. I don't think this is a valid excuse to say because it can be copied it should not be done, you can easily make a excuse for anything, that doesn't make it right. I know there is great confusion about the differences between a Specimen Card, ID Card, COA. In my opinion they all fall under the same umbrella, provenance. I see the paper as the dealers reputation, when they do a good job on the COA, it shows me they care, they want to go the extra mile for the collector. I like that. The extreme position you can take for being against COA's. We know where the specimen comes from, Outer Space. But I think that statement can turn into another argument in and of itself. It sells the meteorite short in my opinion. I like to buy from dealers who care about presentation, don't mind spending a extra few minutes to build that WOW factor that nobody no matter how hard they try can duplicate. I agree with you Mike, when I get those packages in the zip-lock with no ID card or anything. It makes me wanna cry. makes me want to yell at the top of my lungs: SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR THE CULTURE AND THE SCIENCE! I urge other dealers to take the extra steps to advance our COA's together we can elevate meteorite collecting to the next level, and put our meteorites where they belong up on the pedestal. Yes you can say I'm passionate about meteorites in every respect. Sincerely Best Regards, John Higgins ww.outerspacerocks.com IMCA# 9822 From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com To: John higgins geohigg...@yahoo.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's ) Hi John and List, I was not knocking any dealer's reputation, just expressing an opinion about COA's in general. I think we are blurring the line here between
Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
Hi Mike, I consider that little piece of paper you put inside the micros a valid provenance and COA. It's your design and has your name on it. Regardless of how small or cheap others perceive it to be, it's unique and it's the only provenance that comes from you. That in and of itself makes it special, and something worth being proud of. It adds a cultural and historic attribute to every meteorite you sell. You don't have to explain yourself, I consider you a friend, I like you and the meteorites you provide, I like your comments to the list, you and solely you, add a dimension to the meteorite world where there would otherwise be a empty space. When I see your post I don't always respond but I always take pleasure in reading what you have to say. People don't have to agree with you, who cares if they agree or not, you take pride in what you do and you make a incredible effort making great contributions to the meteorite community on a daily basis. And let me be the first to Thank you for being who you are, telling it like it is, and shooting from the hip, telling people how you feel,In my book that puts you near the top of the list. Not too many people put themselves out there like you do. Even though your not big on contributing great volumes of new meteorites, you more than make up for it in contributions you make elsewhere. Sincerely, John Higgins PS. I still am in support of standardization of provenance. From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com To: John higgins geohigg...@yahoo.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's ) Hi John, Some specimen cards or COA's would be easier to counterfeit than others. The best one I have seen, in regards to difficulty to duplicate, would be the cards issued by Martin Altmann and Stefan Ralew. Their specimen card is very glossy and professional, but it also has an embedded hologram. This adds an extra element of difficulty to reproducing their cards and would act as a solid deterrent. Truthfully, I don't issue COA's (or even specimen cards) with the vast majority of my specimens for one reason - cost. The bulk of my sales are specks, crumbs, and tiny pieces that cost $10 or less. It's just not financially viable for me to produce cards and COA's for every little micro I sell. At the rate I sell micros, I would need thousands of them over the course of time, and I just cannot afford the expense. When I have to choose between putting gas in my truck (or food in my belly) and ordering up a batch of specimen cards to be custom made, I have to pick the former. I operate on razor-thin margins and this is how I feed my family. I don't have a day job or income outside of meteorites. Also, my inventory has such a high turnover rate, that a meteorite I have in stock today might be gone tomorrow and might never be offered again. And I am a man of opportunity, most of my acquisitions are based on opportunity alone and are not planned. I have no idea what I will be offering tomorrow or next week. Frankly, I am flying by the seat of my pants. I'm not saying what I do is best or should be emulated by others. By the time I figure in the cost of packing-shipping materials (bubble mailers, baggies, gemjars, printer paper/ink, mailing labels) and other stuff like business cards, I am already spending about $2 on packaging each $5 micromount. Figure in PayPal fees and the profit gets even smaller. I have to draw a line somewhere and I draw it at COA's and specimen cards. Not to mention the 20% off coupons I throw around on the web. Every micro I sell comes in a 1.25 gemjar that has a paper label inside. The paper label states the meteorite name, locality, type, and my URL/name. That small piece of paper, is for all intents and purposes my specimen card. On larger or higher-dollar specimens, I do offer specimen cards. Or, if I am reselling a specimen I bought from another dealer, I pass along the original specimen card or a copy of it. Also, if a buyer requests it, I will provide a specimen card (of the conventional type) for any micro I sell. Most buyers don't request it. I am aware that I lose potential buyers because of how I present my meteorites in a spartan way. I have had several collectors contact me privately and tell me this. Honestly, I am not trying to compete with the big guys, the Hupes, Farmer, Cottingham, or any of you veteran dealers. I don't have the financial ability to compete and I have no desire either. I am quite happy in the small niche I have carved out for myself. I have a cadre of repeat customers who like what I offer and they come back again and again. If they are happy, then I am happy. They know what I offer, and if they want a big specimen, they go elsewhere. I often refer them to the other dealers for those big specimens
Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
Hi John, Thanks for the kind words. You must be one of the half-dozen people on this List that I have not alienated over the years with my big mouth. I like to think that I make positive contributions to the meteorite world, in my own small way. Now if I can just learn to keep my foot out of my mouth. But man, I love the taste of my boots. LOL. Maybe this issue of standardized provenance is an issue that the IMCA can tackle. It sounds like something right up their alley. And although I am not a member, I would be happy to comply with whatever rules might emerge as part of a solution. Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 3/23/12, John higgins geohigg...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Mike, I consider that little piece of paper you put inside the micros a valid provenance and COA. It's your design and has your name on it. Regardless of how small or cheap others perceive it to be, it's unique and it's the only provenance that comes from you. That in and of itself makes it special, and something worth being proud of. It adds a cultural and historic attribute to every meteorite you sell. You don't have to explain yourself, I consider you a friend, I like you and the meteorites you provide, I like your comments to the list, you and solely you, add a dimension to the meteorite world where there would otherwise be a empty space. When I see your post I don't always respond but I always take pleasure in reading what you have to say. People don't have to agree with you, who cares if they agree or not, you take pride in what you do and you make a incredible effort making great contributions to the meteorite community on a daily basis. And let me be the first to Thank you for being who you are, telling it like it is, and shooting from the hip, telling people how you feel,In my book that puts you near the top of the list. Not too many people put themselves out there like you do. Even though your not big on contributing great volumes of new meteorites, you more than make up for it in contributions you make elsewhere. Sincerely, John Higgins PS. I still am in support of standardization of provenance. From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com To: John higgins geohigg...@yahoo.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's ) Hi John, Some specimen cards or COA's would be easier to counterfeit than others. The best one I have seen, in regards to difficulty to duplicate, would be the cards issued by Martin Altmann and Stefan Ralew. Their specimen card is very glossy and professional, but it also has an embedded hologram. This adds an extra element of difficulty to reproducing their cards and would act as a solid deterrent. Truthfully, I don't issue COA's (or even specimen cards) with the vast majority of my specimens for one reason - cost. The bulk of my sales are specks, crumbs, and tiny pieces that cost $10 or less. It's just not financially viable for me to produce cards and COA's for every little micro I sell. At the rate I sell micros, I would need thousands of them over the course of time, and I just cannot afford the expense. When I have to choose between putting gas in my truck (or food in my belly) and ordering up a batch of specimen cards to be custom made, I have to pick the former. I operate on razor-thin margins and this is how I feed my family. I don't have a day job or income outside of meteorites. Also, my inventory has such a high turnover rate, that a meteorite I have in stock today might be gone tomorrow and might never be offered again. And I am a man of opportunity, most of my acquisitions are based on opportunity alone and are not planned. I have no idea what I will be offering tomorrow or next week. Frankly, I am flying by the seat of my pants. I'm not saying what I do is best or should be emulated by others. By the time I figure in the cost of packing-shipping materials (bubble mailers, baggies, gemjars, printer paper/ink, mailing labels) and other stuff like business cards, I am already spending about $2 on packaging each $5 micromount. Figure in PayPal fees and the profit gets even smaller. I have to draw a line somewhere and I draw it at COA's and specimen cards. Not to mention the 20% off coupons I throw around on the web. Every micro I sell comes in a 1.25 gemjar that has a paper label inside. The paper label states the meteorite name, locality, type, and my URL/name. That small piece of paper, is for all intents
