Re: [meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman
Hi Ron, I know this was discussed a few years ago on the list but could you address which might better for meteorites in terms of curation. If I recall, there was some concern about the padding used in the non-membrane type boxes being potentially harmful to meteorites. Thanks -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: R. N. Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:10 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman Reply from Ron I have enjoyed all the free advertising so far on this list, and have found all the posts of interest. I appreciate healthy debate and the many points that have been made. I would like to address two comments regarding one of the previously sent posts. COMMENT 1)You can't tell me that stretching that membrane across the plastic is so much more difficult than sticking a piece of round foam in a jar that it costs 3-4 times as much to make??? REPLY: In fact, it is. There is a great deal of hand assembly in this process. The membrane is attached by a process almost identical to putting a new screen on a screen door and trimming it to size. The stretch has to be just right for the box to have its shock proof characteristics and for the membrane to return to a flat plane when the piece is removed. It requires special tooling and semi-automated machinery, and a skilled person to do the job. We do this ourselves, and it required sending Jim to the factory in Europe for a week of special training plus the purchase and importing of the equipment. If we did not do part of the manufacturing, we could not keep our prices lower than everyone elses. COMMENT 2)... and am really annoyed by the mold mark in the middle of it-- exactly where a mold mark should NOT be on a display case REPLY: The box is a patented invention, but was not designed with meteorite collectors in mind. It was designed for transportation and/or storage of delicate parts and to provide shock protection. THE GOOD NEWS: Our #10 membrane box, 100 x 50 x 16 mm is our own unique box with NO MOLD MARK OR MARKINGS. We offer it with a colorless latch. It is the ideal size for smal pieces. We provide it with colorless latches. We got into the membrane business a few years ago after reading that a number of collectors were looking for the product. There are other dealers on the web. You can find them by going to Google and typing membrane box into the search. We tried them initially. One such dealer sent loose boxes in a zip-lock bag, so scratched up that half were unusable. Another (and I talked to their CEO personally) took about 3 months to deliver the micro boxes and a third of the boxes were scuffed on one side due to improper packing. Most of these places do not keep much of a stock in inventory, as we try to do. And, we guarantee that our boxes will arrive quickly and fully assembled, in perfect condition and ready to use, or we will replace them. You don't have to worry about broken plastic cases due to rough handling in shipping. We also offer advise and support about the proper sized for your needs. I notice that some other sellers on the web are now including in their ads that the membrane boxes are good for meteorites, although I suspect that most couldn't recognize a meteorite if they tripped on it! I will be pleased to respond to any questions or comments. RON R. N. HARTMAN, Inc. METEORITES AND ACCESSORIES MEMBRANE SUSPENSION BOXES Serving collectors, education and industry worldwide email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] visit us on the web at: www.meteorite1.com www.membranebox.com Mailing address: R. N. Hartman 20687-2 Amar Road #400 Walnut, CA 91789 (U.S.A.) - Original Message - From: Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Re: [meteorite-list] Membrane Boxes On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:15:53 -0500, you wrote: I find Ron Hartman's pricing very reasonable. Try to beat that by buying from the source in Europe and having them shipped to the US. The prices are reasonable-- if you are displaying pieces worth a sizable multiple of the price of the membrane box. For instance, a $800 lunar in a $2 membrane box is no big deal. I tend to collect micromounts, both for economic and for space reasons. I thought about putting all of mine into membrane boxes, but I just could not justify paying the price per membrane box when you could get a gem jar of about the same size for a small fraction of the price. The gem jars are about the same size, about the same amount of material, and about the same complexity to manufacture, but because only one company is making the membrane boxes, there is no competition for them, and therefore inflated, monopoly prices. You can't tell me that stretching that membrane across the plastic is so much more difficult than sticking
Re: [meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman
I know this was discussed a few years ago on the list but could you address which might better for meteorites in terms of curation. If I recall, there was some concern about the padding used in the non-membrane type boxes being potentially harmful to meteorites. actually, i thought there was some issue with the membrane boxes in terms of the plastic keeping any moisture locked up against the surface when you store slices in them? I know i have purchased some slices that went into membrane boxes and later showed rust where half individuals from the same source didnt show any rust when stored simply on a shelf. i know this is hardly a scientific comparison though, but FWIW i wonder if the plastic in a membrane box could somehow be impregnated with that VCI stuff __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman
Reply from Ron I have enjoyed all the free advertising so far on this list, and have found all the posts of interest. I appreciate healthy debate and the many points that have been made. I would like to address two comments regarding one of the previously sent posts. COMMENT 1)You can't tell me that stretching that membrane across the plastic is so much more difficult than sticking a piece of round foam in a jar that it costs 3-4 times as much to make??? REPLY: In fact, it is. There is a great deal of hand assembly in this process. The membrane is attached by a process almost identical to putting a new screen on a screen door and trimming it to size. The stretch has to be just right for the box to have its shock proof characteristics and for the membrane to return to a flat plane when the piece is removed. It requires special tooling and semi-automated machinery, and a skilled person to do the job. We do this ourselves, and it required sending Jim to the factory in Europe for a week of special training plus the purchase and importing of the equipment. If we did not do part of the manufacturing, we could not keep our prices lower than everyone elses. COMMENT 2)... and am really annoyed by the mold mark in the middle of it-- exactly where a mold mark should NOT be on a display case REPLY: The box is a patented invention, but was not designed with meteorite collectors in mind. It was designed for transportation and/or storage of delicate parts and to provide shock protection. THE GOOD NEWS: Our #10 membrane box, 100 x 50 x 16 mm is our own unique box with NO MOLD MARK OR MARKINGS. We offer it with a colorless latch. It is the ideal size for smal pieces. We provide it with colorless latches. We got into the membrane business a few years ago after reading that a number of collectors were looking for the product. There are other dealers on the web. You can find them by going to Google and typing membrane box into the search. We tried them initially. One such dealer sent loose boxes in a zip-lock bag, so scratched up that half were unusable. Another (and I talked to their CEO personally) took about 3 months to deliver the micro boxes and a third of the boxes were scuffed on one side due to improper packing. Most of these places do not keep much of a stock in inventory, as we try to do. And, we guarantee that our boxes will arrive quickly and fully assembled, in perfect condition and ready to use, or we will replace them. You don't have to worry about broken plastic cases due to rough handling in shipping. We also offer advise and support about the proper sized for your needs. I notice that some other sellers on the web are now including in their ads that the membrane boxes are good for meteorites, although I suspect that most couldn't recognize a meteorite if they tripped on it! I will be pleased to respond to any questions or comments. RON R. N. HARTMAN, Inc. METEORITES AND ACCESSORIES MEMBRANE SUSPENSION BOXES Serving collectors, education and industry worldwide email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] visit us on the web at: www.meteorite1.com www.membranebox.com Mailing address: R. N. Hartman 20687-2 Amar Road #400 Walnut, CA 91789 (U.S.A.) - Original Message - From: Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Re: [meteorite-list] Membrane Boxes On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:15:53 -0500, you wrote: I find Ron Hartman's pricing very reasonable. Try to beat that by buying from the source in Europe and having them shipped to the US. The prices are reasonable-- if you are displaying pieces worth a sizable multiple of the price of the membrane box. For instance, a $800 lunar in a $2 membrane box is no big deal. I tend to collect micromounts, both for economic and for space reasons. I thought about putting all of mine into membrane boxes, but I just could not justify paying the price per membrane box when you could get a gem jar of about the same size for a small fraction of the price. The gem jars are about the same size, about the same amount of material, and about the same complexity to manufacture, but because only one company is making the membrane boxes, there is no competition for them, and therefore inflated, monopoly prices. You can't tell me that stretching that membrane across the plastic is so much more difficult than sticking a piece of round foam in a jar that it costs 3-4 times as much to make? I only go with a membrane box for the pieces with great interest on both size. My other micro pieces go into gem jars. Also, I have one of the boxes like this one, and am really annoyed by the mold mark in the middle of it-- exactly where a mold mark should NOT be on a display case: http://home.earthlink.net/~capricorn89/box23.jpg (irrelevant side note-- I worked in a plastics plant running injection molding machines one summer during school, some of the machines the size of rooms. It gives an
Re: [meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:10:37 -0800, you wrote: REPLY: In fact, it is. There is a great deal of hand assembly in this process. The membrane is attached by a process almost identical to putting a new screen on a screen door and trimming it to size. The stretch has to be just right for the box to have its shock proof characteristics and for the membrane to return to a flat plane when the piece is removed. It requires special tooling and semi-automated machinery, and a skilled person to do the job. We do this ourselves, and it required sending Jim to the factory in Europe for a week of special training plus the purchase and importing of the equipment. If we did not do part of the manufacturing, we could not keep our prices lower than everyone elses. I didn't know that this step wasn't done at the plastics plant, but still, the point is that it could be-- especially if the machinery is semi-autimated. My point was never about being able to make them from scratch at home. Just what kiind of compexity and production costs they would have for a professional, fully equiped plastics molding plant. I can understand added costs if you are basicly putting them together yourself at home. At the plastics plant where I used to work, many of the parts there also involved extra steps after removal from the mold, including using sorts of ultrasonic drills to insert metal fittings into pieces. What I'm getting at is that the shape of the parts are very simple, not requiring any fancy multi-part molds or pins for holes or overhangs, just the two steel plates that are pressed together. The plastic used doesn't look to be anything exoctic. The problem that you seemed to have was with poor concern for quality control at the plant. If anyone found a market for constant production of significant numbers of these, then they could make them for pennies per piece, especially concidering how little labor costs they would have to pay in China or where-ever. And quality control? When someone knows that they can be fired at the drop of a hat for the smallest mistake and that there are a hundred people waiting in line behind him to take the job, I think that they'll be a bit careful. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman
Darren G. writes: If anyone found a market for constant production of significant numbers of these, then they could make them for pennies per piece Yes, but finding a market isn't some shift supervisor's job with a ball and chain attached to his ankle. Friday I went to the printers because I needed a certain carbonless copy form set reprinted. I wanted 50. The printer offered a special to his amigo (me). $48 US plus 15% VAT. He tempted me with 100 instead for $51.50 plus tax - the cost of the extra paper and ink marked up. I told him 50 would be just fine. If you worked in a plastics plant you should know the the greatest cost is for small production runs is the changeover and setup costs, and has nothing to do with material costs. In the US they get sent to Mexico, and then we botch them up because they are more frustrating than they are worth and the volume is never what we are told and it is a waste of learning curve and lip service attended to, when the production line could chug out thousands of pieces instead of being adjusted, cleaned, new plastics calibrated for rheometric, abrasion and impact properties. Bottom line, membrane boxes are a specialty product and gem jars are a commodity not to mention the manual maquila work we now learned about. Meteorites are specialty rocks, of course. I want a free lunch a lot more than the next guy but wouldn't think munching on 'branes is the answer. Rather than be moaning at the pricing, though, it is really nice to know that a premium box is there for my sentimentally special specimens that I want to splurge for. Like that $3 cup of Starbuck's coffee in the US, I bet. If we socialized the US supplier to sell them for $1 each or less, he might do what we do in Mexico - throw in the towel without a smile and a sore back. Then it becomes an obsolete product, or taken to China and you get what you pay for. Nothing against our Chinese colleagues, If you paid them well enough, you'd get your cake and eat it too. But you wouldn't have a pension or job to buy it any more since there is hardly anything that any country has a monopoly of doing better than others. The wonders of economic equilibrium... Saludos, Doug __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman
Hello [EMAIL PROTECTED] and list: To respond to your post: First of all, to have the factory install the membrane is a big cost, and we can do it cheaper because we do it ourselves. However, it is not the kind of thing done at home. We had to outfit a small building where we do our assembly and operations. And, yes, we do have higher quality control. We were finding instances where the space between the membrane and the inner part of the plastic shell was not always as clean as we demanded..little specks, shavings of membrane material, dust, etc. Although we don't have a class 1000 clean room: i.e.: Cleanrooms are 10,000 times cleaner than a hospital operating room. It takes an incredible amount of technology to achieve and maintain such cleanliness. Huge air filtration systems completely change the air in cleanrooms about 10 times per minute, reducing the chance that there are airborne particles that might harm the chips we don't do badly at all with our present manufacturing assembly methods and careful workmanship. Nevertheless, new technologies are developing all the time and with decreasing costs for upgrading the fabrication facilities, these things are always on our agenda for some future date. Shipping charges of one 5000 cu. inch. carton from Europe by FedEx to us average around $330.00, with savings with quantity. (This could add $2 to $4 to the final retail cost of one box, depending on the size). This is why we ususally purchase factory components at a ton-rate or more. Even so, rates have gone up as much as 30% in the past year due to fuel surcharges and FedEx normal yearly rate increases. Shipping is charged by volume and not weight, and you can see that the boxes are mostly air. By applying the membrane ourselves, we can get more shells into a shipping carton, thus saving shipping costs and keeping costs down. Without this advantage, prices could be 20-40% higher. The polyurethane membrane is in fact a specially made formulation for the membrane boxes. Not that polyurethane is exotic, but the specific formulation for the boxes have a factory defined specific stretch, tear resistance and bounce ability to absorbe shock utiling damped vibration technology. One can go to: http://www.efunda.com/formulae/vibrations/sdof_free_damped.cfm if one wishes to look more into that (but I wouldn't want to!). You are very right, that there are a number of extra steps after removal from the mold. For example, that little dimple in the middle of the box was much more before the box was finished! What you see is after drilling and polishing to even it out. I can understand any concern for prices and appreciate what seem to be simple solutions. However, in the real world, many solutions are not as simple as they may appear to be initially. There are many costs beyond those for raw materials. And, don't forget: customs fees, foreign exchange money transfer fees, processing fees, tariff charges, and for us, Paypal charges, taxes, and on and on. Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: R. N. Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:10:37 -0800, you wrote: REPLY: In fact, it is. There is a great deal of hand assembly in this process. The membrane is attached by a process almost identical to putting a new screen on a screen door and trimming it to size. The stretch has to be just right for the box to have its shock proof characteristics and for the membrane to return to a flat plane when the piece is removed. It requires special tooling and semi-automated machinery, and a skilled person to do the job. We do this ourselves, and it required sending Jim to the factory in Europe for a week of special training plus the purchase and importing of the equipment. If we did not do part of the manufacturing, we could not keep our prices lower than everyone elses. I didn't know that this step wasn't done at the plastics plant, but still, the point is that it could be-- especially if the machinery is semi-autimated. My point was never about being able to make them from scratch at home. Just what kiind of compexity and production costs they would have for a professional, fully equiped plastics molding plant. I can understand added costs if you are basicly putting them together yourself at home. At the plastics plant where I used to work, many of the parts there also involved extra steps after removal from the mold, including using sorts of ultrasonic drills to insert metal fittings into pieces. What I'm getting at is that the shape of the parts are very simple, not requiring any fancy multi-part molds or pins for holes or overhangs, just the two steel plates that are pressed together. The plastic used doesn't look to be anything exoctic. The problem that you seemed
Re: Re: [meteorite-list] Comments re: membrane boxes from Ron Hartman
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:49:29 -0800, you wrote: You are very right, that there are a number of extra steps after removal from the mold. For example, that little dimple in the middle of the box was much more before the box was finished! What you see is after drilling and polishing to even it out. The one that I have here doesn't have a dimple in the middle-- it has a peg sticking out roughly the same distance (not far, but it is there) I wasn't sure if it was designed to be there for cushioning or was just a sprue mark: http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/mb.jpg I can understand any concern for prices and appreciate what seem to be simple solutions. However, in the real world, many solutions are not as simple as they may appear to be initially. There are many costs beyond those for raw materials. And, don't forget: customs fees, foreign exchange money transfer fees, processing fees, tariff charges, and for us, Paypal charges, taxes, and on and on. Okay, I'll relent on the point of the expenses/hassles YOU have to go through to produce them, and how that effects the prices you have to charge to make them, and that you aren't likely getting filthy steenking rich off of the sales. And I wasn't really thinking about the price that a given dealer was charging, since I assumed that all dealers were buying the same pre-finished commodity item from the manufacturer in bulk and then just reselling them in smaller quantities but at a higher price per unit instead of doing extensive post work on it. So I wasn't attempting to say that YOU, Ron Hartman could make them much cheaper-- just that SOMEONE could make them much cheaper. If China can make and sell 29 dollar DVD players, I think that they could make and sell 29 cent membrane boxes. Maybe not quite as high a quality, but close enough to be worth buying at the lower price. There probably will never be enough of a market for something like membrane boxes for some Chineese company to decide to make knockoffs, but a guy can dream. :-) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
