Re: [meteorite-list] Destruction of the Hopewell civilization

2023-09-29 Thread E.P. Grondine via Meteorite-list 
Hi Anne, everyone - 
When I did my survey of native memories for "Man and Impact in the Americas" 
(now $50 used, thank you. I wrote a collectable. Best wishes to all of you who 
invested in a copy.) I hit no mention of Tankersley et al.'s event. 
None.
It looks to me like they are finding out of sequence deposits, and/or materials 
from the 534 CE Encke fly-by.
No question but the Shawnee had access via their trade network to Brenham as 
well as anything else that came down. 
What is "funny" to me is that so far very few people have stumbled into the 
relatively recent smaller impacts. The way I look at that is "any decade now".
For about $30,000 or so I could go to Chicago and take another look to see if 
Tankersley et al.'s impact event shows up.  I doubt if it will.
In other news, I have recovered a Yazoo sculpture from near my house in 
Vicksburg. I may have to sell it to buy a car. Anyone here work with an auction 
house? Mississippian sculptures are so rare that there is no standard market 
price range.
good hunting everyoneEd E.P. Grondine__
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Re: [meteorite-list] Destruction of the Hopewell civilization

2023-09-28 Thread Anne Black via Meteorite-list 
Thank you  Dolores, Robert H. Thank you everybody.Yes it was an idea, but a 
half-baked one, at most. 
And thank you Robert W. but you should have sent your article to 
Meteorite-Times.com

Anne blackimpactika.comimpact...@aol.com
 

On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 10:42:02 AM MDT, Yahoo 
 wrote:  
 
 Anne, and all,
Thank you for your post. I had not previously read the article for which you 
provided a link, but I was pleased to see it. I found it very interesting. 
In regard to the specific sentence you quoted from the article concerning the 
use of meteoritic iron by the Hopewell people, I have copied below several 
paragraphs from two articles that I wrote. The first was published in the 
Central States Archaeological Journal in Jan, 2007, and was entitled “ 
Meteorites on Indian Sites “.  I later expanded the article in Sep, 2013, and 
it was to be published in the unfortunately-all-too-short-lived “ Meteorite 
Hunting and Collecting Magazine. The article was accepted, but the magazine 
ceased operation just before my article would have appeared. 
I hope you and other members of The List might find this interesting, but I do 
apologize for the length of the email, especially for those who might not.

                  Article from Jan, 2007:
Meteoritic iron has even been used by Native Americans to manufacture both 
ornaments and tools.  Copper earspools with an overlay of iron foil derived 
from meteorites have been found on sites in Georgia and Ohio, along with 
similarly produced buttons and beads.  Woodworking tools, such as celts, axes, 
chisels, and adzes made of iron from meteorites have been found in various 
Hopewell sites.  In fact, the Hope-wellian culture appears to have been 
actively engaged in meteorite collecting, since at least 20 of their sites have 
produced artifacts of iron that came from 3 different meteorites, as identified 
by chemical analysis.

Article from Sep, 2013 :
The prehistoric Hopewell people were one of the most highly-developed cultures 
of eastern North America.  It is characterized by their construction of large 
and richly furnished burial mounds and a passion for exotic materials for use 
in the production of funerary goods.  An extensive trading network provided 
them with such items as obsidian and grizzly bear canine teeth from the 
Rockies, marine shells from Florida, native copper and silver from the Upper 
Great Lakes region, and mica from Virginia.  But perhaps the most interesting 
exotic substance was their fairly prolific use of meteoritic iron, occurring in 
the form of “nuggets” of un-worked meteorite masses, as well as in the shape of 
tools or as overlay on other materials. When worked, it was always worked 
“cold”, as smelting and casting techniques were unknown to them.  The following 
is a brief list of some of the artifacts that they made utilizing meteoritic 
iron: 
Copper earspools plated with meteoric iron;  earspools made entirely of 
meteoritic iron;  beads of rolled meteoritic-iron sheeting; clay, wood, or 
sandstone buttons covered with meteoritic iron; solid cones of meteoritic iron; 
awls made of meteoritic iron; an axe, adze, and chisels made of solid 
meteoritic iron; a small meteoritic-iron drill stuck in a pearl bead which it 
was used to perforate; a ball of meteoritic iron set into a hollowed bear 
canine tooth, and a human ulna banded and partly covered with meteoritic-iron 
sheeting.
 
These meteorite-related artifacts were found on more than a dozen different 
Hopewell sites.  The extreme scarcity of meteoritic iron and the considerable 
amount of knowledge required to identify it, coupled with their abundant use of 
the material with well over 100 individual meteorite containing artifacts found 
to date, appears to be evidence for deliberate meteorite collecting among the 
Hopewellians. At least 2 and possibly 3 to 4, different iron (or pallasite) 
meteorites have been identified as the source for the iron used with the 
artifacts.  It has been proven that metal found in 2 of the mounds were 
identical in composition to the Brenham, Kansas pallasite.  It is noteworthy 
that no evidence for their use of stone meteorites has ever been found.   
 
Without doubt the Hopewell people were the most dedicated hunters and 
collectors of meteorites by prehistoric Native Americans. Outside of the 
Hopewell area and context, archaeological finds of meteorites in North America 
are rare, with no consistent pattern of distribution.  Authenticated, scattered 
associations seem to be more a matter of casual meteorite collecting, perhaps 
because the fall was witnessed or because the meteorites looked out of place 
where they were found. Also, it is significant that the over whelming majority 
of non-Hopewell prehistoric meteorite collectors never attempted to work the 
iron into tools or ornaments, and simply left the masses intact.  The following 
are a few selected examples of meteorites that have been found on 
non-Hopewellian Indi

Re: [meteorite-list] Destruction of the Hopewell civilization

2023-09-28 Thread Yahoo via Meteorite-list 
Anne, and all,

Thank you for your post. I had not previously read the article for which you 
provided a link, but I was pleased to see it. I found it very interesting. 

In regard to the specific sentence you quoted from the article concerning the 
use of meteoritic iron by the Hopewell people, I have copied below several 
paragraphs from two articles that I wrote. The first was published in the 
Central States Archaeological Journal in Jan, 2007, and was entitled “ 
Meteorites on Indian Sites “.  I later expanded the article in Sep, 2013, and 
it was to be published in the unfortunately-all-too-short-lived “ Meteorite 
Hunting and Collecting Magazine. The article was accepted, but the magazine 
ceased operation just before my article would have appeared. 

I hope you and other members of The List might find this interesting, but I do 
apologize for the length of the email, especially for those who might not.


  Article from Jan, 2007:

Meteoritic iron has even been used by Native Americans to manufacture both 
ornaments and tools.  Copper earspools with an overlay of iron foil derived 
from meteorites have been found on sites in Georgia and Ohio, along with 
similarly produced buttons and beads.  Woodworking tools, such as celts, axes, 
chisels, and adzes made of iron from meteorites have been found in various 
Hopewell sites.  In fact, the Hope-wellian culture appears to have been 
actively engaged in meteorite collecting, since at least 20 of their sites have 
produced artifacts of iron that came from 3 different meteorites, as identified 
by chemical analysis.


Article from Sep, 2013 :

The prehistoric Hopewell people were one of the most highly-developed cultures 
of eastern North America.  It is characterized by their construction of large 
and richly furnished burial mounds and a passion for exotic materials for use 
in the production of funerary goods.  An extensive trading network provided 
them with such items as obsidian and grizzly bear canine teeth from the 
Rockies, marine shells from Florida, native copper and silver from the Upper 
Great Lakes region, and mica from Virginia.  But perhaps the most interesting 
exotic substance was their fairly prolific use of meteoritic iron, occurring in 
the form of “nuggets” of un-worked meteorite masses, as well as in the shape of 
tools or as overlay on other materials. When worked, it was always worked 
“cold”, as smelting and casting techniques were unknown to them.  The following 
is a brief list of some of the artifacts that they made utilizing meteoritic 
iron: 

Copper earspools plated with meteoric iron;  earspools made entirely of 
meteoritic iron;  beads of rolled meteoritic-iron sheeting; clay, wood, or 
sandstone buttons covered with meteoritic iron; solid cones of meteoritic iron; 
awls made of meteoritic iron; an axe, adze, and chisels made of solid 
meteoritic iron; a small meteoritic-iron drill stuck in a pearl bead which it 
was used to perforate; a ball of meteoritic iron set into a hollowed bear 
canine tooth, and a human ulna banded and partly covered with meteoritic-iron 
sheeting.
 
These meteorite-related artifacts were found on more than a dozen different 
Hopewell sites.  The extreme scarcity of meteoritic iron and the considerable 
amount of knowledge required to identify it, coupled with their abundant use of 
the material with well over 100 individual meteorite containing artifacts found 
to date, appears to be evidence for deliberate meteorite collecting among the 
Hopewellians. At least 2 and possibly 3 to 4, different iron (or pallasite) 
meteorites have been identified as the source for the iron used with the 
artifacts.  It has been proven that metal found in 2 of the mounds were 
identical in composition to the Brenham, Kansas pallasite.  It is noteworthy 
that no evidence for their use of stone meteorites has ever been found.   
 
Without doubt the Hopewell people were the most dedicated hunters and 
collectors of meteorites by prehistoric Native Americans. Outside of the 
Hopewell area and context, archaeological finds of meteorites in North America 
are rare, with no consistent pattern of distribution.  Authenticated, scattered 
associations seem to be more a matter of casual meteorite collecting, perhaps 
because the fall was witnessed or because the meteorites looked out of place 
where they were found. Also, it is significant that the over whelming majority 
of non-Hopewell prehistoric meteorite collectors never attempted to work the 
iron into tools or ornaments, and simply left the masses intact.  The following 
are a few selected examples of meteorites that have been found on 
non-Hopewellian Indian sites.
 
Camp Verde, AZ. - Iron, IAB – 61.5kg, transported Canyon Diablo. Sometime 
around 1915, George E. Dawson found a stone cyst, typical in appearance to a 
child burial, in the corner of an ancient Indian dwelling.  About 18 inches 
down, he uncovered the meteorite, wrapped in a feather-cloth

Re: [meteorite-list] Destruction of the Hopewell civilization

2023-09-28 Thread Mark Hammergren via Meteorite-list 
I, too, would love to hear more about the Hopewell people's use of
meteoritic materials.
As for the sensationalist article by Tankersley et al., it was convincingly
refuted by others and finally formally retracted from the journal this year.


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On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 9:22 AM Anne Black via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> This was brought to my attention, but I had never heard of the event.
> Anyone?
>
>
> https://www.uc.edu/news/articles/2022/02/did-comets-fiery-destruction-lead-to-downfall-of-ancient-hopewell.html
>
> One interesting line:
> *The Hopewell people collected the meteorites and forged malleable metal
> from them into flat sheets used in jewelry and musical instruments called
> pan flutes.*
>
> It would be interesting to hear more.
>
> Anne Black
> IMPACTIKA.com
> impact...@aol.com
>
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Destruction of the Hopewell civilization

2023-09-28 Thread Larry Lebofsky via Meteorite-list 
Anne:

I was aware of this article, but thanks for the quote from it. So comets
have enough metal to make tools. I guess I have been wrong all these years!

Larry Lebofsky

On Thu, Sep 28, 2023, 7:22 AM Anne Black via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> This was brought to my attention, but I had never heard of the event.
> Anyone?
>
>
> https://www.uc.edu/news/articles/2022/02/did-comets-fiery-destruction-lead-to-downfall-of-ancient-hopewell.html
>
> One interesting line:
> *The Hopewell people collected the meteorites and forged malleable metal
> from them into flat sheets used in jewelry and musical instruments called
> pan flutes.*
>
> It would be interesting to hear more.
>
> Anne Black
> IMPACTIKA.com
> impact...@aol.com
>
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Destruction of the Hopewell civilization

2023-09-28 Thread Ioannis Baziotis via Meteorite-list 
Dear Anne,

There is another article by Nolan et al., published on Scientific Reports
(NPG) (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39866-0) entitled: "*Refuting
the sensational claim of a Hopewell-ending cosmic airburst*" who conclude
the following:

While not a comprehensive review of all of the issues with Tankersley et
al.’s “Hopewell airburst event,” this brief summary demonstrates the
systematic flaws in the analysis and interpretation of archaeological data,
chronological data, and cosmic geochemistry. We find that their
presentation and argument:

1. Does not support claims of a catastrophic regional burning,
2. Does not demonstrate their evidence is, in fact, synchronous,
3. Does not demonstrate that microspherules are related to meteorites,
4. Mistakenly claims that pallasite fragments could have originated in
comets, and
5. Does not provide evidence for a widespread decline in Hopewell culture.

In short, their observations fail to demonstrate any aspect of this cosmic
catastrophe.

Best Regards,

Baziotis Ioannis

Ioannis Baziotis ibazio...@aua.gr
Associate Professor of Mineralogy and Petrology
Laboratory of Mineralogy and Geology
Agricultural University of Athens
75 Iera Odos St., Athens, 11855 Greece
(+30)-210-529-4155; (+30)-6975967914
Personal site: http://ibaziotis.wix.com/ioannis-baziotis




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Στις Πέμ 28 Σεπ 2023 στις 5:21 μ.μ., ο/η Anne Black via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> έγραψε:

> Hello,
>
> This was brought to my attention, but I had never heard of the event.
> Anyone?
>
>
> https://www.uc.edu/news/articles/2022/02/did-comets-fiery-destruction-lead-to-downfall-of-ancient-hopewell.html
>
> One interesting line:
> *The Hopewell people collected the meteorites and forged malleable metal
> from them into flat sheets used in jewelry and musical instruments called
> pan flutes.*
>
> It would be interesting to hear more.
>
> Anne Black
> IMPACTIKA.com
> impact...@aol.com
>
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
__
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[meteorite-list] Destruction of the Hopewell civilization

2023-09-28 Thread Anne Black via Meteorite-list 
Hello,
This was brought to my attention, but I had never heard of the event.Anyone?
https://www.uc.edu/news/articles/2022/02/did-comets-fiery-destruction-lead-to-downfall-of-ancient-hopewell.html

One interesting line:  The Hopewell people collected the meteorites and forged 
malleable metal from them into flat sheets used in jewelry and musical 
instruments called pan flutes.

It would be interesting to hear more.   
Anne Black  IMPACTIKA.com  impact...@aol.com  

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