[meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
This went out to the IMCA list a day or so ago; since then, a little more information has come to light -- please see below. - Hello All, As you may or may not know, a former IMCA member named John Bryan Scarborough was found to be selling misrepresented material from at least four different falls/finds (Mifflin, Ash Creek, Zunhua, and Deport). He recently changed his ebay username to lonestar*meteorites, and is selling the following specimen of Tissint. http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-49g-100-CRUSTED-WITNESSED-7-18-2011-/280822837261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416258700d#ht_500wt_1085 I've seen a significant portion of the stones from this fall, and know for a fact that stones covered entirely in primary fusion crust are extraordinarily rare, if not completely absent, from recovered finds. Even pieces that have some primary fusion crust typically do not resemble this above stone: http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/tata_0-81-1.jpg http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=360869963936731set=o.162786720415331type=1theater As you can see, the crust is thin enough to discern visible olivine phenocrysts on the fragment showing primary crust, and all of the other stones pictured are covered in glossy secondary crust that looks rather different from the specimen on ebay. The ebay auction linked to above *may* be of a real piece of Tissint, but I am highly suspicious of it based on its appearance. The stone pictured on ebay does not look like any of those stones, and instead looks like a small complete Camel Donga. http://www.rocksonfire.com/new_itempage-camel%20donga57.htm Scarborough is offering another piece of Tissint on ebay, accompanied by photographs that make it appear to be a specimen purchased from Darryl Pitt: http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-662-GRAMS-WITNESSED-FALL-7-18-2011-/280822579982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416254830e#ht_500wt_1085 Which I point out only so that you all know that Scarborough is also offering Tissint that is apparently real. However, since the small individual I regard as highly suspect is not accompanied by such photos, I would assume that it was not purchased from the same source, and is thus less likely to be Tissint, given the seller's history. Since John Bryan's labels have been wrong in the past, if you insist on purchasing specimens from him, I would suggest buying based only on the appearance of what he sells. I can offer no other evidence to suggest that the above stone is real or fake, but would add that I've seen some 2.5 kilograms of Tissint in person, to say nothing of photographs. Regards, Jason -- Darryl has since confirmed that the individual of Tissint being offered did not come from him, though the fragment did; it doesn't prove anything, but it makes me doubt the individual's authenticity all the more. The 27.2 gram slice of Oum Dreyga Brandon mentioned is also most definitely an L-chondrite (L3/4-6 breccia, to include likely possibilities). http://www.ebay.com/itm/OUM-DREYGA-H3-5-METEORITE-27-2-g-BEAUTIFUL-THICK-FUSION-CRUSTED-SLICE-/280805041109?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416148e3d5#ht_692wt_1070 The crust is too smooth and sand-blasted, the broken edges of the slice are covered in caliche, and it's an L-chondrite. It's a nice slice, but it's not Oum Dreyga. In light of Brandon's recent post and the previous stuff...I really don't have much else to say. Brandon's noted that the slice he purchased from Scarborough was sold as unclassified while this new slice is being offered as Oum Dreyga. This rather points towards Scarborough's being responsible for the errors, though it's still not proof of fraud. All one could do is analyze the slice, confirm it is (not) Oum Dreyga, and...prove what we already know, which is that he has sold (and is selling) material that is mislabeled. Does anyone have a solid contact at ebay? I've called them before about things like this, but it doesn't seem to do much. Regards, Jason __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
List, Like I posted before. I am sick of this self appointed judge and jury BS. I, and Dr. Ted Bunch, were victims of this type of witch hunt last year and when all allegations of misconduct were thoroughly proven to be falseno apology from anyone was forthcoming. Scarborough, as I posted before, has dozens of experienced collectors and dealers worldwide, many far more knowledgeable than our self appointed inquisitioner, bidding and buying his offerings apparently without complaint... including the rock in question. He has a 100% feedback rating and offers a full money back guarantee. I don't know the validity of the charges made against this dealer in the past, but if they are as bogus as the ones that slandered me, I don't believe they belong on this site in the manner they are being presented...which is guilty before proven innocent, and they don't belong on this List. Now, I have done the obvious and contacted Scarborough, whom I have never met, and informed him of these allegations and asked if he would be interested in contesting them by providing provenance of the piece in question. If, he responds, I will share what he represents to all. Which is what should have ben done before these actionable slanders continue. I will make an admission here in an attempt to prove my point. I once was sued for slander per se and successfully defended my simple remark. It cost me thousands to defend myself and in the end I found that my, I thought innocent remark, had come within one vote of an eight person jury of finding me guilty. I learned then to keep my mouth shut unless willing to back it up with incontrovertible evidence and a deep pocket book. Finally, If members continue to make allegations and take the risk of suit against us all, that's right...ask your attorney about IMCA's liability in promoting slanderous statements, at least when allegations are proven bogus and/or driven by personal vindictiveness, see that an abject apology is issued. I'm still waiting for mine. Regards, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 Original Message- From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com Sent: Feb 14, 2012 2:29 AM To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough This went out to the IMCA list a day or so ago; since then, a little more information has come to light -- please see below. - Hello All, As you may or may not know, a former IMCA member named John Bryan Scarborough was found to be selling misrepresented material from at least four different falls/finds (Mifflin, Ash Creek, Zunhua, and Deport). He recently changed his ebay username to lonestar*meteorites, and is selling the following specimen of Tissint. http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-49g-100-CRUSTED-WITNESSED-7-18-2011-/280822837261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416258700d#ht_500wt_1085 I've seen a significant portion of the stones from this fall, and know for a fact that stones covered entirely in primary fusion crust are extraordinarily rare, if not completely absent, from recovered finds. Even pieces that have some primary fusion crust typically do not resemble this above stone: http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/tata_0-81-1.jpg http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=360869963936731set=o.162786720415331type=1theater As you can see, the crust is thin enough to discern visible olivine phenocrysts on the fragment showing primary crust, and all of the other stones pictured are covered in glossy secondary crust that looks rather different from the specimen on ebay. The ebay auction linked to above *may* be of a real piece of Tissint, but I am highly suspicious of it based on its appearance. The stone pictured on ebay does not look like any of those stones, and instead looks like a small complete Camel Donga. http://www.rocksonfire.com/new_itempage-camel%20donga57.htm Scarborough is offering another piece of Tissint on ebay, accompanied by photographs that make it appear to be a specimen purchased from Darryl Pitt: http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-662-GRAMS-WITNESSED-FALL-7-18-2011-/280822579982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416254830e#ht_500wt_1085 Which I point out only so that you all know that Scarborough is also offering Tissint that is apparently real. However, since the small individual I regard as highly suspect is not accompanied by such photos, I would assume that it was not purchased from the same source, and is thus less likely to be Tissint, given the seller's history. Since John Bryan's labels have been wrong in the past, if you insist on purchasing specimens from him, I would suggest buying based only on the appearance of what he sells. I can offer no other evidence to suggest that the above stone is real or fake, but would add that I've seen some 2.5 kilograms of Tissint in person, to say nothing of photographs. Regards, Jason -- Darryl has since confirmed
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Hi Count and Kudos' to you! You bring up some very real and serious points. I hope I don't upset anyone with this post. I have this huge pet peeve of those that sell meteorites without listing, mentioning and or providing a Provenance on meteorites whether it be on eBay or their Websites.You don't go out and purchase a used car without asking for a car fax or asking questions before purchasing it, and so the same should also be done when interested in purchasing a meteorite from anyone, be it eBay or Dealer Website or any other form of Auctions. I refuse to purchase any meteorite from anyone without this provenance or at the lease asking the Seller on a meteorites history. As I have said before, meteorites don't grow on trees! They arrived in the Sellers possession from somewhere and or from someone other then those meteorites that have been found. Those meteorites found would most likely and better have been sent to a lab for testing and verification so as to start some form of provenance. I highly recommend to ALL Sellers/Collectors and Dealers to inquire the validity of meteorites they intend to purchase. SAVE this provenance label or paper of history so the next future buyer can have a copy of it for his or her records. I find it sloppy professionalism to those who can not provide provenance time and time again on meteorites they sell. Though an ID card helps...the truth is anyone can make up an ID card. A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Consider it a blood line so to speak or family tree! Hope I did not offend anyone with my views. I am just trying to protect all of you and your collections including mine by enacting professional organized record keeping practices. - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com; Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough List, Like I posted before. I am sick of this self appointed judge and jury BS. I, and Dr. Ted Bunch, were victims of this type of witch hunt last year and when all allegations of misconduct were thoroughly proven to be falseno apology from anyone was forthcoming. Scarborough, as I posted before, has dozens of experienced collectors and dealers worldwide, many far more knowledgeable than our self appointed inquisitioner, bidding and buying his offerings apparently without complaint... including the rock in question. He has a 100% feedback rating and offers a full money back guarantee. I don't know the validity of the charges made against this dealer in the past, but if they are as bogus as the ones that slandered me, I don't believe they belong on this site in the manner they are being presented...which is guilty before proven innocent, and they don't belong on this List. Now, I have done the obvious and contacted Scarborough, whom I have never met, and informed him of these allegations and asked if he would be interested in contesting them by providing provenance of the piece in question. If, he responds, I will share what he represents to all. Which is what should have ben done before these actionable slanders continue. I will make an admission here in an attempt to prove my point. I once was sued for slander per se and successfully defended my simple remark. It cost me thousands to defend myself and in the end I found that my, I thought innocent remark, had come within one vote of an eight person jury of finding me guilty. I learned then to keep my mouth shut unless willing to back it up with incontrovertible evidence and a deep pocket book. Finally, If members continue to make allegations and take the risk of suit against us all, that's right...ask your attorney about IMCA's liability in promoting slanderous statements, at least when allegations are proven bogus and/or driven by personal vindictiveness, see that an abject apology is issued. I'm still waiting for mine. Regards, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 Original Message- From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com Sent: Feb 14, 2012 2:29 AM To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough This went out to the IMCA list a day or so ago; since then, a little more information has come to light -- please see below. - Hello All, As you may or may not know, a former IMCA member named John Bryan Scarborough was found to be selling misrepresented material from at least four different falls/finds (Mifflin, Ash Creek, Zunhua, and Deport). He recently changed his ebay username to lonestar*meteorites, and is selling the following specimen of Tissint. http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-49g-100-CRUSTED-WITNESSED-7-18-2011-/280822837261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416258700d
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Sorry again list. I was so rattled I forgot to sign off with my name! Sincerely Don Merchant Hi Count and Kudos' to you! You bring up some very real and serious points. I hope I don't upset anyone with this post. I have this huge pet peeve of those that sell meteorites without listing, mentioning and or providing a Provenance on meteorites whether it be on eBay or their Websites.You don't go out and purchase a used car without asking for a car fax or asking questions before purchasing it, and so the same should also be done when interested in purchasing a meteorite from anyone, be it eBay or Dealer Website or any other form of Auctions. I refuse to purchase any meteorite from anyone without this provenance or at the least asking the Seller on a meteorites history. As I have said before, meteorites don't grow on trees! They arrived in the Sellers possession from somewhere and or from someone other then those meteorites that have been found. Those meteorites found would most likely and better have been sent to a lab for testing and verification so as to start some form of provenance. I highly recommend to ALL Sellers/Collectors and Dealers to inquire the validity of meteorites they intend to purchase. SAVE this provenance label or paper of history so the next future buyer can have a copy of it for his or her records. I find it sloppy professionalism to those who can not provide provenance time and time again on meteorites they sell. Though an ID card helps...the truth is anyone can make up an ID card. A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Consider it a blood line so to speak or family tree! Hope I did not offend anyone with my views. I am just trying to protect all of you and your collections including mine by enacting professional organized record keeping practices. Sincerely Don Merchant __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Hi Don and List, I don't think you have offended anyone because you do raise a valid point about provenance that has been discussed at length previously on this List. I think the majority of people on the List consider you one of the good guys, so your input is always valued. I would just like to add a few things to the discussion that are not always readily apparent when talking about provenance. Yes, provenance is extremely important in meteorites and many other rare collectibles. Any time money is an issue, there will be scammers and unethical sellers. That is an unfortunate fact and meteorites are no different. Provenance is more important for certain types and falls. For example, very few collectors are concerned about the provenance of a Campo del Cielo iron. For one thing, they are extremely common. Secondly, they have a distinctive look that is hard to confuse. The same thing can be said for Sikhote Alin individuals - very common and very distinctive. Tatahouine diogenite is another good example - quite common and hard to mistake for something else. The list of meteorites that fall into this category of common and distinctive numbers into the hundreds. In cases such as these, provenance is less important as a tool to prove authenticity. Instead, provenance for these meteorites is a matter of family tree importance for those who like to know every step their common specimen has taken on it's road to it's final collection buyer. Where provenance is of the utmost importance is with very rare types that can closely resemble a more-common type. Or, if a specimen is a rare fall that happens to be a common petrologic type. Is that dark-crusted chondrite a Chergach, or is it a Pultusk? It's very hard for the majority of people to tell just by looking at the outside of the stone. Is a given micromount really a piece of Weston, or is it a piece of something more common (and far less valuable) like NWA 4526? In cases such as these, provenance is very important. I would hope that any dealer worth their salt, IMCA or not, would keep extensive records on where they acquire their specimens. I do, and I know many dealers who have files packed with information on where they bought every specimen, how much they paid for it, etc. However, some of this information should not be freely shared in a public forum for all eyes to see. Does a customer buying a Weston have a right to know where it came from? Yes, they do. Do rival dealers and curious onlookers with no intention of buying have that same right? In my opinion, no they do not. Many dealers take great pains to cultivate long-standing relationships with other dealers, wholesalers, and hunters. And for many dealers, selling meteorites is how they put food on the table, buy their medicine, pay their bills, and make a living. And as we all know, unfortunately, there is some petty back-stabbing behavior in the meteorite world. Some dealers, who shall remain unnamed, are chicken$hit and like nothing better than to stir up drama and talk smack behind others' backs - in an effort to defame another dealer, hurt their business, and lure away their customers. It happens. I can think of a very well-known and respected meteorite person who talks smack about me behind my back, but is too chicken to say those things to my face. Why does he say such things? (besides being mentally ill?) Because he doesn't like how I sell my micromounts and considers me a bottom feeder - not because I have ever engaged in any unethical practices, which I have not. If I exposed to the public all of my sources for material, this person would waste no time badmouthing me to all of my sources - possibly hurting my trading and possibly hurting my trading partners because those partners dare to do business with me. It is because of people like that, that I do not freely advertise on my website where I get all of my material. I wouldn't want my sources to become targets of this nutjob's ire simply because they sell to me. Having said that, if any customer of mine asks where I acquired a given specimen, I will freely tell that person and provide ID cards from my source and other provenance information. My track record in that regard speaks for itself. Anyone with photoshop and a printer can produce an official-looking COA or ID card. A man (or woman's) word is everything in this business and that means much more than a COA or ID card that is not worth the paper it is printed on. My word has always been solid and truthful, and I have scores of loyal customers who know that. I don't have an IMCA number and I don't have major institutions on my speed-dial list. But I do purchase from some sources who do have these things. And I will reveal those sources to any paying customer. I will NOT reveal those sources to Google, the non-buying public at large, or petty ex-rental car agents who feel it necessary to bad-mouth auction lots during a public auction because
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Don M wrote: A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Hi Don, Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list? Every time I get excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but delicious anyway. I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in your last advertised auctions on the list. Now, whenever someone buys a 3 gram specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get included a free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to someone who then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as the piece's grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone by the hand, intelligent and not so much, to explain how the material was originally acquired from the BM? In my opinion, certainly not! The prime sources for this material can't be responsible for every atomic sized piece that falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer gets the idea he is going to be a meteorite speck dealer. I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you did, regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal way to deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on your auctions sometimes when they are larger. There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make an informed purchase. From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect keeping provenance sacred is of prime importance. However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully close as of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely excludes me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all the while kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement account. [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to Doug: put this statement in the opinion section, you have no right to imply this is bad form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private Esquel]) I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate situations which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from hand to hand in a neat little chain, since this is a very complicated can of sardines that doesn't lend itself to blanket statements. As we all know a chain is as strong as its weakest link, and if someone is dishonest it really becomes an issue for independent scientific verification - because then and only then - the stone must speak. No pile of papers unless photo documented in a Dewey decimal system is beyond a con artist's talent in this day and you must come to grips that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt foundations of an old houseboat isn't going to happen, even while falling in love with the updated cabinetry in the kitchen! The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a speculative excitement. A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in most cases it doesn't. That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated. Now let me give my opinion: Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro specimens. While I always wince when hearing how I must do something to guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do this, l would say the same thing. Maybe that's one of the non-scientific reasons I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite. When you break it - it's worth less, and it is refreshing to know that except for a few talented slicer folk out there experimenting with sections, most of the large pieces will be conserved for posterity, always convincingly recognizable, and this, because the market determined value the way *I said*. Ok, now I apologize, I understand I am lucky to be participating in the meteorite world and I have a debt of gratitude so great to all of my peers and giants before me, that I am not entitled to preach this thought to other good people doing an honest day's work. Kindest wishes Doug PS flame away ;-) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Hi Don and list, Don I fully agree with you regarding the fact that All collectors and dealers should keep every single piece of provenance from the past history of who owned and sold the meteorite and I'm sure any Meteorite Dealer in good conscious would agree with you that provenance is very important and that we should all keep the paperwork, card or just a slip of paper or receipt from the previous seller for historical reasons and a good paper trail. I've bought many meteorites over the past 12 or so years that I've been collecting that I wish they had the original paperwork and bought many that had a copy of a card or label from a museum in Europe or America that was 30 or 40 years old or a new copy of the old card when I wished they had given me that old original card. Many I've purchased from a previous dealer had their card and the previous piece of paper, but many have only had a new card from the person that sold it to me with their card or laminated card. My best story to go along with your thoughts and mine too was a rare meteorite I purchased, small, but expensive that I purchased many years ago, then sold to a well known person, then they sold it to another well known dealer who sold it to another well known dealer and then I bought this same exact meteorite back and only got the card from the previous dealer. I thought it would have been wonderful and very nice if I had gotten back even my card and some of the old paperwork, but I assume that in our fast paced time and this age that most are trying to get their names out there and only want us to buy from them so that is why they are selling it with their new card so that we remember them and buy from them again and then if we pass it along then that next person will see their card and contact them for other meteorites instead of the previous sellers. I appreciate you bringing this up Don because now and in the future down the line I am going to try and concentrate more and more on asking any dealer for the previous paperwork for provenance of the sellers before them. I hope your post allows all collectors and dealers to hold onto all of the old paperwork because I think many of us collectors will be looking for old provenance down the road, and I know that I certainly will be demanding it. Have a great day and may a wonderful rare meteorite fall in your yard and all of our fellow collector's yards. Brian Cox Message: 9 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:22:08 -0500 From: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough To: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com, Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com Message-ID: 000301cceb34$cd2ce500$6501a8c0@donaldmerchant Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Hi Count and Kudos' to you! You bring up some very real and serious points. I hope I don't upset anyone with this post. I have this huge pet peeve of those that sell meteorites without listing, mentioning and or providing a Provenance on meteorites whether it be on eBay or their Websites.You don't go out and purchase a used car without asking for a car fax or asking questions before purchasing it, and so the same should also be done when interested in purchasing a meteorite from anyone, be it eBay or Dealer Website or any other form of Auctions. I refuse to purchase any meteorite from anyone without this provenance or at the lease asking the Seller on a meteorites history. As I have said before, meteorites don't grow on trees! They arrived in the Sellers possession from somewhere and or from someone other then those meteorites that have been found. Those meteorites found would most likely and better have been sent to a lab for testing and verification so as to start some form of provenance. I highly recommend to ALL Sellers/Collectors and Dealers to inquire the validity of meteorites they intend to purchase. SAVE this provenance label or paper of history so the next future buyer can have a copy of it for his or her records. I find it sloppy professionalism to those who can not provide provenance time and time again on meteorites they sell. Though an ID card helps...the truth is anyone can make up an ID card. A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Consider it a blood line so to speak or family tree! Hope I did not offend anyone with my views. I am just trying to protect all of you and your collections including mine by enacting professional organized record keeping practices. - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com; Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
that may affect or complicate in any way the livelihood of others, that morality and honesty is suddenly given a backseat on the bus. Thank you. Sincerely Don Merchant - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: dmerc...@rochester.rr.com; countde...@earthlink.net; jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough Don M wrote: A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Hi Don, Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list? Every time I get excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but delicious anyway. I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in your last advertised auctions on the list. Now, whenever someone buys a 3 gram specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get included a free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to someone who then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as the piece's grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone by the hand, intelligent and not so much, to explain how the material was originally acquired from the BM? In my opinion, certainly not! The prime sources for this material can't be responsible for every atomic sized piece that falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer gets the idea he is going to be a meteorite speck dealer. I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you did, regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal way to deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on your auctions sometimes when they are larger. There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make an informed purchase. From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect keeping provenance sacred is of prime importance. However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully close as of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely excludes me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all the while kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement account. [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to Doug: put this statement in the opinion section, you have no right to imply this is bad form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private Esquel]) I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate situations which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from hand to hand in a neat little chain, since this is a very complicated can of sardines that doesn't lend itself to blanket statements. As we all know a chain is as strong as its weakest link, and if someone is dishonest it really becomes an issue for independent scientific verification - because then and only then - the stone must speak. No pile of papers unless photo documented in a Dewey decimal system is beyond a con artist's talent in this day and you must come to grips that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt foundations of an old houseboat isn't going to happen, even while falling in love with the updated cabinetry in the kitchen! The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a speculative excitement. A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in most cases it doesn't. That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated. Now let me give my opinion: Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro specimens. While I always wince when hearing how I must do something to guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do this, l would say the same thing. Maybe that's one of the non-scientific reasons I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite. When you break it - it's worth less, and it is refreshing to know that except for a few talented slicer folk out there experimenting with sections, most of the large pieces will be conserved for posterity, always convincingly recognizable, and this, because the market determined value the way *I said*. Ok, now I apologize, I understand I am lucky to be participating in the meteorite world and I have a debt of gratitude so great to all of my peers and giants before me, that I am not entitled to preach this thought to other good people doing an honest day's work. Kindest wishes Doug PS flame away ;-) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net
