Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2
Martin, McCartney, List, I suggest that The lines on mt's Allende and Martin's Tazas are not radiating but converging. I believe that the rim does not contain the flow lines but, in a sense, produces them. I see the lines as melt that has come around the edge of the meteorite and frozen in paths toward lower pressure. Oops! Did a bit of metal slosh out of Martin's fine bowl at the five o'clock position? Of course conditions have to be just right to produce this phenomenon. Other possibilities are nothing, just a lip, spatter, a mass of froth and maybe spikes. This Chergach is not as nice but it might help make my case. http://johnkashuba.com/Pages/Meteorite%20Pages/Pictures/ChergachH5.htm Kind regards, - John John Kashuba Ontario, California -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dark Matter Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 4:02 PM To: mccart...@blackbearddata.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2 Hi MT, Back in July of 2003, I posted a collection of pics of oriented irons known then as Taza in my Accretion Desk article: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2003/July/Accretion_Desk.htm I highlighted a couple of fully lipped individuals also wondering how such a feature could form. I believe it was Jim Tobin who suggested that the iron was spinning like a wheel parallel to the direction of travel and the lipping produced a tire effect around the surface interior which, as is especially viewable in the specimen I nicknamed a bowl full of flowlines seemed to have no directional orientation in the usual way, and in fact, has much in common with the Allende pic you posted. Best, Martin On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:00 PM, McCartney Taylormccart...@blackbearddata.com wrote: http://outofabluesky.com/images/stories/stoneymeteorites/allende12-7.jpg This is an Allende. I'm not sure I understand the orientation signs I see. I see a star flow line pattern which indicates this side is windward. But the lipping on the NW side hints the side is leeward. So I'm a bit confused. Any ideas on alternate interpretations? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2
Hello McCartney, All, I would agree with John Kashuba's suggest that what you are seeing is an effect of airflow on the trailing edge of an oriented stone. I have seen examples of similar features on several stony meteorites, including NWA 869, Chergach, Amgala, and most clearly on an unnamed NWA in our collection (a good 3-400 miles away from me at the moment, so I can't manage photos). While I did at first toy with the idea that such lines were the result of an oriented stone that flipped while in flight, the markings simply don't look like flow lines on the leading edge of a stone; they are more pronounced, and thinner. While I would agree that the formation of such features seems unlikely, I would like to point out that the flipping over of a stone in ablative flight - occurring without ablation taking place during the flip - seems even less likely - at least to me. Regards, Jason On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Frank Cressyfcre...@prodigy.net wrote: Hi McCartney, Michael and all, I agree with Michael that this is the back side of an oriented meteorite. The lipping shows that. I also agree with him that it flipped during flight and that this side was once the leading side, but but neccessarily because of the flow lines. Generally the front side of an oriented meteorite has thinner crust than the rear side. Since we can see many chondrules through the crust, I think that the thin crust supports that it was once the leading edge. Cheers, Frank --- On Sun, 7/26/09, Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net wrote: From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2 To: mccart...@blackbearddata.com, Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, July 26, 2009, 7:41 PM Hi McCartney, In the photo, first of all, if it is an oriented meteorite (and it seams to be) one is looking at the flat back side. One can see SOME Lipping on the left - especially, the upper left, but this specimen certainly does not display much in the way of lipping. In addition, some of the flow lines (very slight) on the back indicate that during part of the fall, the flat back side of the stone Flipped around and was the face (or one might say it spent some Time tumbling as it moved through the atmosphere). All of these and many more phenomena will be explained with LOTS of photos in my book which is nearly ready to go to print and Should be available shortly. I have narrowed down the name and it will be, ASPECTS OF ORIENTED METEORITES or METEORITES SHOWING ASPECTS OF ORIENTATION. Best wishes, Michael On 7/26/09 4:00 PM, McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com wrote: http://outofabluesky.com/images/stories/stoneymeteorites/allende12-7.jpg This is an Allende. I'm not sure I understand the orientation signs I see. I see a star flow line pattern which indicates this side is windward. But the lipping on the NW side hints the side is leeward. So I'm a bit confused. Any ideas on alternate interpretations? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2
Michael, Or you could call it: Aspects Of Meteorite Orientation, Just a thought, Phil Whitmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2
Hi MT, Back in July of 2003, I posted a collection of pics of oriented irons known then as Taza in my Accretion Desk article: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2003/July/Accretion_Desk.htm I highlighted a couple of fully lipped individuals also wondering how such a feature could form. I believe it was Jim Tobin who suggested that the iron was spinning like a wheel parallel to the direction of travel and the lipping produced a tire effect around the surface interior which, as is especially viewable in the specimen I nicknamed a bowl full of flowlines seemed to have no directional orientation in the usual way, and in fact, has much in common with the Allende pic you posted. Best, Martin On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:00 PM, McCartney Taylormccart...@blackbearddata.com wrote: http://outofabluesky.com/images/stories/stoneymeteorites/allende12-7.jpg This is an Allende. I'm not sure I understand the orientation signs I see. I see a star flow line pattern which indicates this side is windward. But the lipping on the NW side hints the side is leeward. So I'm a bit confused. Any ideas on alternate interpretations? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2
http://outofabluesky.com/images/stories/stoneymeteorites/allende12-7.jpg This is an Allende. I'm not sure I understand the orientation signs I see. I see a star flow line pattern which indicates this side is windward. But the lipping on the NW side hints the side is leeward. So I'm a bit confused. Any ideas on alternate interpretations? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2
Hi McCartney, I'm betting on lee side. I've seen quite a few oriented stones with radial flow lines on both sides with the lee side showing, in all the cases I've seen, the fainter lines. Here's a quick few photos of the first one I could put my hands on, a little Chergach I got from Geoff Notkin: lee side: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v614/CaneySprings/?action=viewcurrent=Chergach10-6gramleeside2.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v614/CaneySprings/?action=viewcurrent=Chergach10-6gramleeside1.jpg windward side: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v614/CaneySprings/?action=viewcurrent=Chergach10-6gramfrontside.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v614/CaneySprings/?action=viewcurrent=Chergach10-36gmNotkin08100853-26MAL.jpg With my quick and dirty photos the lines look a lot fainter than they really are(compare Geoff's photo of the front to my more humble effort). Cheers, Jim Baxter - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:00:40 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2 http://outofabluesky.com/images/stories/stoneymeteorites/allende12-7.jpg This is an Allende. I'm not sure I understand the orientation signs I see. I see a star flow line pattern which indicates this side is windward. But the lipping on the NW side hints the side is leeward. So I'm a bit confused. Any ideas on alternate interpretations? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2
Hi McCartney, In the photo, first of all, if it is an oriented meteorite (and it seams to be) one is looking at the flat back side. One can see SOME Lipping on the left - especially, the upper left, but this specimen certainly does not display much in the way of lipping. In addition, some of the flow lines (very slight) on the back indicate that during part of the fall, the flat back side of the stone Flipped around and was the face (or one might say it spent some Time tumbling as it moved through the atmosphere). All of these and many more phenomena will be explained with LOTS of photos in my book which is nearly ready to go to print and Should be available shortly. I have narrowed down the name and it will be, ASPECTS OF ORIENTED METEORITES or METEORITES SHOWING ASPECTS OF ORIENTATION. Best wishes, Michael On 7/26/09 4:00 PM, McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com wrote: http://outofabluesky.com/images/stories/stoneymeteorites/allende12-7.jpg This is an Allende. I'm not sure I understand the orientation signs I see. I see a star flow line pattern which indicates this side is windward. But the lipping on the NW side hints the side is leeward. So I'm a bit confused. Any ideas on alternate interpretations? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2
Hi McCartney, Michael and all, I agree with Michael that this is the back side of an oriented meteorite. The lipping shows that. I also agree with him that it flipped during flight and that this side was once the leading side, but but neccessarily because of the flow lines. Generally the front side of an oriented meteorite has thinner crust than the rear side. Since we can see many chondrules through the crust, I think that the thin crust supports that it was once the leading edge. Cheers, Frank --- On Sun, 7/26/09, Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net wrote: From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Example of Lipping and direction stumper. TAKE 2 To: mccart...@blackbearddata.com, Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Sunday, July 26, 2009, 7:41 PM Hi McCartney, In the photo, first of all, if it is an oriented meteorite (and it seams to be) one is looking at the flat back side. One can see SOME Lipping on the left - especially, the upper left, but this specimen certainly does not display much in the way of lipping. In addition, some of the flow lines (very slight) on the back indicate that during part of the fall, the flat back side of the stone Flipped around and was the face (or one might say it spent some Time tumbling as it moved through the atmosphere). All of these and many more phenomena will be explained with LOTS of photos in my book which is nearly ready to go to print and Should be available shortly. I have narrowed down the name and it will be, ASPECTS OF ORIENTED METEORITES or METEORITES SHOWING ASPECTS OF ORIENTATION. Best wishes, Michael On 7/26/09 4:00 PM, McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com wrote: http://outofabluesky.com/images/stories/stoneymeteorites/allende12-7.jpg This is an Allende. I'm not sure I understand the orientation signs I see. I see a star flow line pattern which indicates this side is windward. But the lipping on the NW side hints the side is leeward. So I'm a bit confused. Any ideas on alternate interpretations? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
