[meteorite-list] Friable meteorites surviving in big pieces
Perhaps not as friable as a Tagish Lake or some others, but it seems miraculous that the 1-ton Norton County aubrite remained more or less intact! This is largest achondrite mass in the world. Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
Pete wrote: My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? Pete you're in the good company of David Rittenhouse who asked the same question in 1780. It's related to the other conundrum - How do they stay relatively cool inside while the surface becomes fused? That seemingly goes against common sense. And with Irons it is even better because at much lower temperatures, the Widmanstatten pattern would become annealled and lost. Yet there is a fusion region on irons that can be measured in fractions of a millimeter in some cases, and never much more. Somehow, and I'm winging it though I should know, the process of ablation is so darn efficient at removing the heat generated, much like we sweat, that the ablating surface provides a natural air conditioner for what's inside, just like a swamp cooler but absorbing even by an electric excitation mechanism which discharges the energy by transforming from electrical into light energy, hece the brightness observed/ But that still doesn't explain why going into a headwind of 10 miles per second everything doesn't rip apart. That must, and please correct me if I am wrong, be due to two or three factors working in concert on the forward face of the mass: 1. heat is wicked off immediately by the sublimation described above 2,3. the ablated material leaving the surface creates a plasma which either has a much lower frictional coefficient or creates a static layer of plasma travelling with the object which essential operates as a battering ram forming its own sacrificial layer, or both. Thus, the rock from space is like an insulated kernal traveling in its own form in place shields. When it finishes its high energy velocities it goes into free fall which reaches a maximum speed of under 400 mph in most cases much less which upon hitting a soft surface can survive. But if it hits a rock, you probably will be out of luck Carancas was different because it never reached free fall, and the impact was like whipping a piece of cement to belly flop against a hard wall of something. Even then, a portion of material in the aft section can survive. Try whipping pieces of chalk against a wall and you'll demonstrate a similar effect and perhaps get some cone of material stuck to the wall and a few crumbs falling back, along with a lot of dust. If it is large enough, and traveling in a herd of rocks which is also likely since they can become insultaed in their form in place sublimation shield, the first stones will be sacrificial but some in the back may survive. A possible explanation for Carancas. Or, just that their were some laggers that fell behind the main bolus and their higher surface area slowed them much more to better withsatand an impact. Kindest wishes Douig PS nice domain, Pete PPS another way to produce some friable meteorites is let them fall in water and see what happens and recover them later. After they dry out enough material may be leached (since they are porous) that they become much more friable. Care to give an example? -Original Message- From: Greg Hupe gmh...@centurylink.net To: Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com Cc: The List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 12:57 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Hey All, I would have to suggest Nakhlites are one of the most friable meteorites. Best Regards, Greg Hupe On Oct 23, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: Pete, If you want to talk friable meteorites, take a look at Tagish Lake. It is one of my most favorite meteorites, it is the least dense meteorite known to man. Fascinating! -Michael in so. Cal. On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:06 PM, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: In a conversation with someone today, it was mentioned that Kilabo was extremely friable. Another really friable meteorite was Caracas, Peru. My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? How did they make a crator? Have the scientists figured out how the Caracas meteorite made such a large crator? Many questions and so little time to figure out what happened. Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net
[meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
Or I would have to say Orgueil if very friable, if you look at it wrong it will turn to dust. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Michael Mulgrew mikestang at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 00:50:52 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Next message: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Pete, If you want to talk friable meteorites, take a look at Tagish Lake. It is one of my most favorite meteorites, it is the least dense meteorite known to man. Fascinating! -Michael in so. Cal. On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:06 PM, pshugar at messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: In a conversation with someone today, it was mentioned that Kilabo was extremely friable. Another really friable meteorite was Caracas, Peru. My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? How did they make a crator? Have the scientists figured out how the Caracas meteorite made such a large crator? Many questions and so little time to figure out what happened. Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Previous message: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Next message: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
Or dare I say Nantan! Ok... so kind of a different thread but at least you don't even need to touch that one! ;-) On a silent night you can hear the Nantans rust! Cheers, Jeff -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mulgrew Sent: Monday, 24 October 2011 3:51 PM To: pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com Cc: The List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Pete, If you want to talk friable meteorites, take a look at Tagish Lake. It is one of my most favorite meteorites, it is the least dense meteorite known to man. Fascinating! -Michael in so. Cal. On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:06 PM, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: In a conversation with someone today, it was mentioned that Kilabo was extremely friable. Another really friable meteorite was Caracas, Peru. My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? How did they make a crator? Have the scientists figured out how the Caracas meteorite made such a large crator? Many questions and so little time to figure out what happened. Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
Hello List, Friable meteorites in my collection: DaG 430 (C3-ung) - friable NWA 096 (H3.8) - slightly friable NWA 998 (SNC) - friable NWA 2484 (AEUC) - friable NWA 4398 (AEUC) - friable NWA 4590 (ANG) - very friable (aka: Tamassint) NWA 4801 (ANG) - friable NWA 4890 (AEUC) - extremely friable (aka: Digoult) NWA 5618 (AEUC) - friable NWA 6412 (H5/6) - very friable NWA 6575 (ADIO) - friable Ornans (CO3.4) - friable Saratov (L4) - friable Sulagiri (LL6) - friable Best wishes, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
G'Day Master Doug Very interesting. Maybe you've stumbled upon force field. Could I be referring to shields up?? Plasma is fascinating, not as fascinating as Carancas, friable, fast and low and behold a crater. Will we ever solve this dilemma? Fraid knot. Sorry, that was a personal joke. ;-) Cheers John Cabassi IMCA 2125 -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of MexicoDoug Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 11:03 PM To: gmh...@centurylink.net; mikest...@gmail.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Pete wrote: My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? Pete you're in the good company of David Rittenhouse who asked the same question in 1780. It's related to the other conundrum - How do they stay relatively cool inside while the surface becomes fused? That seemingly goes against common sense. And with Irons it is even better because at much lower temperatures, the Widmanstatten pattern would become annealled and lost. Yet there is a fusion region on irons that can be measured in fractions of a millimeter in some cases, and never much more. Somehow, and I'm winging it though I should know, the process of ablation is so darn efficient at removing the heat generated, much like we sweat, that the ablating surface provides a natural air conditioner for what's inside, just like a swamp cooler but absorbing even by an electric excitation mechanism which discharges the energy by transforming from electrical into light energy, hece the brightness observed/ But that still doesn't explain why going into a headwind of 10 miles per second everything doesn't rip apart. That must, and please correct me if I am wrong, be due to two or three factors working in concert on the forward face of the mass: 1. heat is wicked off immediately by the sublimation described above 2,3. the ablated material leaving the surface creates a plasma which either has a much lower frictional coefficient or creates a static layer of plasma travelling with the object which essential operates as a battering ram forming its own sacrificial layer, or both. Thus, the rock from space is like an insulated kernal traveling in its own form in place shields. When it finishes its high energy velocities it goes into free fall which reaches a maximum speed of under 400 mph in most cases much less which upon hitting a soft surface can survive. But if it hits a rock, you probably will be out of luck Carancas was different because it never reached free fall, and the impact was like whipping a piece of cement to belly flop against a hard wall of something. Even then, a portion of material in the aft section can survive. Try whipping pieces of chalk against a wall and you'll demonstrate a similar effect and perhaps get some cone of material stuck to the wall and a few crumbs falling back, along with a lot of dust. If it is large enough, and traveling in a herd of rocks which is also likely since they can become insultaed in their form in place sublimation shield, the first stones will be sacrificial but some in the back may survive. A possible explanation for Carancas. Or, just that their were some laggers that fell behind the main bolus and their higher surface area slowed them much more to better withsatand an impact. Kindest wishes Douig PS nice domain, Pete PPS another way to produce some friable meteorites is let them fall in water and see what happens and recover them later. After they dry out enough material may be leached (since they are porous) that they become much more friable. Care to give an example? -Original Message- From: Greg Hupe gmh...@centurylink.net To: Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com Cc: The List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 12:57 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Hey All, I would have to suggest Nakhlites are one of the most friable meteorites. Best Regards, Greg Hupe On Oct 23, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: Pete, If you want to talk friable meteorites, take a look at Tagish Lake. It is one of my most favorite meteorites, it is the least dense meteorite known to man. Fascinating! -Michael in so. Cal. On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:06 PM, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: In a conversation with someone today, it was mentioned that Kilabo was extremely friable. Another really friable meteorite was Caracas, Peru. My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? How did they make a crator? Have the scientists figured out how the Caracas meteorite made such a large crator? Many questions and so little time to figure out what happened. Pete __ Visit
Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
Hi John --- Yup something like that! But if yo9u want to be more mundane, a meteor seems to me to be just a trail of plasma, same as lightning except for the seed (the meteoroid itself). Lucky for us it is, because if it weren't, there would be nothing to see. Or, at minimum, there would be no trail. The reason for the delay and sight of the streak of light (persistent train) must be because the air-particle mixture involved in the wake has been turned into a plasma by the passing of the object. Once the energy source passes, the electrons recombine with their nuclei and the plasma is convertted into regular gas again. So, just to be clear: You are not seeing the plasma (the actual shield) when you see the meteor. What you are seeing is the energy (in the form of light) that these free roaming electrons lose as soon as they are recaptured by the nearest electron-stripped nuclei. That's an interesting concept actually, because it is simply a decay - so it has a bulk half life. What makes it interesting in this moment is that the brightest point on the trail may or may not be right around the head if the half life is sufficiently long since there is a temperature dependence in order for the nuclei to capture the electrons again, which will be different for each different mass and shape of meteormass and atmospheric densit, in addition to the composition. So it would be possibly observable if you could record an extremely fast image, to see a snapshot in time of the light energy density and how far back, or, generally speaking the energy density gradient (=brightness). That, to me brings up a whole world of possibilities of analysis. Probably someone is studying this somewhere or maybe it is old hat, but I don't have a clue. In effect what I'm saying is taking super short exposures (time interval TBD) of meteors with determined locations one could actually calculate how big the mass is. If a standard is needed, an experiment could be designed to fire particles toward earth from a low orbiting satellite. Ah, if only I were in school again, I'd be a perpetual project hopping student ;-) Kindest wishes Doug PS, I love the shields abnalogy, but I want to correct my form-in-place idea ... it was a sloppy way to say it because I also got carried away with the beam-me-up stuff. Reading the above, it's clwear the shield is not a form in place one, but rather a disposible tunnel one. Well, at least the Enterprise can use its sensors to find the residual. In order to make sense of when the Romulans sent each of the meteoroid sized invaders to hide in Earth and track them down, though, the main ship's computer will need to reference our paper on half life relationship to be studied above... -Original Message- From: John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net To: 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com; gmhupe gmh...@centurylink.net; mikestang mikest...@gmail.com Cc: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 10:55 pm Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites G'Day Master Doug Very interesting. Maybe you've stumbled upon force field. Could I be referring to shields up?? Plasma is fascinating, not as fascinating as Carancas, friable, fast and low and behold a crater. Will we ever solve this dilemma? Fraid knot. Sorry, that was a personal joke. ;-) Cheers John Cabassi IMCA 2125 -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of MexicoDoug Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 11:03 PM To: gmh...@centurylink.net; mikest...@gmail.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites Pete wrote: My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? Pete you're in the good company of David Rittenhouse who asked the same question in 1780. It's related to the other conundrum - How do they stay relatively cool inside while the surface becomes fused? That seemingly goes against common sense. And with Irons it is even better because at much lower temperatures, the Widmanstatten pattern would become annealled and lost. Yet there is a fusion region on irons that can be measured in fractions of a millimeter in some cases, and never much more. Somehow, and I'm winging it though I should know, the process of ablation is so darn efficient at removing the heat generated, much like we sweat, that the ablating surface provides a natural air conditioner for what's inside, just like a swamp cooler but absorbing even by an electric excitation mechanism which discharges the energy by transforming from electrical into light energy, hece the brightness observed/ But that still doesn't explain why going into a headwind of 10 miles per second everything doesn't rip apart. That must, and please correct me if I am wrong, be due to two or three factors working in concert
[meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
In a conversation with someone today, it was mentioned that Kilabo was extremely friable. Another really friable meteorite was Caracas, Peru. My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? How did they make a crator? Have the scientists figured out how the Caracas meteorite made such a large crator? Many questions and so little time to figure out what happened. Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
Pete, If you want to talk friable meteorites, take a look at Tagish Lake. It is one of my most favorite meteorites, it is the least dense meteorite known to man. Fascinating! -Michael in so. Cal. On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:06 PM, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: In a conversation with someone today, it was mentioned that Kilabo was extremely friable. Another really friable meteorite was Caracas, Peru. My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? How did they make a crator? Have the scientists figured out how the Caracas meteorite made such a large crator? Many questions and so little time to figure out what happened. Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Friable meteorites
Hey All, I would have to suggest Nakhlites are one of the most friable meteorites. Best Regards, Greg Hupe On Oct 23, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: Pete, If you want to talk friable meteorites, take a look at Tagish Lake. It is one of my most favorite meteorites, it is the least dense meteorite known to man. Fascinating! -Michael in so. Cal. On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:06 PM, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: In a conversation with someone today, it was mentioned that Kilabo was extremely friable. Another really friable meteorite was Caracas, Peru. My question is how do they survive to the ground, to be found not as a dust, but in large pieces? How did they make a crator? Have the scientists figured out how the Caracas meteorite made such a large crator? Many questions and so little time to figure out what happened. Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
