Re: [meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil question
Good morning all: In reference to all the posts and interests regarding Gebel Kamio, it is my understanding that only 20 kilo of Gebel Kamil was approved for removal from the crater for scientific purposes by the research team that explored the crater, and that a quantity was later removed by an unauthorized person who illegally removed meteorites without the Egyptian government's permission, and that no export documents were ever approved for any others by the government. If this is true, then I would like to think no reputable dealer who was aware of this would ethically want to buy and sell this material, (I should like to believe so!). Are these facts indeed true or has something changed that I have not heard about?? I see Gebel Kamil saturating Ebay and I'm wondering whether the Egyptian government is now permitting collecting or whether additional material is now being allowed out, and what about export papers? Having spent some time in Egypt I know that because of the countries rich abundance of historical artifacts of all kinds including things that can sometimes be found just by kicking the sand, the government has a blanket policy regarding anything that one may want to remove from the country, and the policy is NO, whether specifics are stated or not. Maybe some dealer has traded some of his exotic meteorites or a camel or two for a bucket full of GK. I don't know. May we have a discussion here? I think some clarification and update would be of interest. Someone know something?? Thank You, Ron Hartman __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil question
Hi Ron, May we have a discussion here? I don't know, whether that would make sense. Such discussions and the laws debate in general, including the media reports suffer always from the lack of substance. Because possible legal restrictions, or whether there are some or not, are given mostly by sole hearsay, rumors and assumptions. I mean, you see it best with the Schmitt, McEwen, Schmitt Co. Barristers-Paper about meteorite laws, where they seriously claimed that all meteorites would be covered as movable heritage by the 1970 UNESCO convention! And who are parroted since even by meteorite people in prominent positions with utter conviction, cause they are obviously either to lazy or intellectually not able to read the very simple text of the convention by themselves, which tells unmistakably, when an object is covered by the convention. (Ratification -- Compiling of a n a t i o n a l list of categories of objects of national heritage --- meteorites listed in that national list. Amen.) See, even that guy from UNESCO, who was quoted in the Newscientists article about Gebel Kamil, what was his name, Planche? - made there that statement, which is verifiably wrong, cause he doesn't seems to know the wordings of the convention. That only as most blatant example. As long as the wordings, the very text of the laws are unknown, such discussions are vain in my opinion. who was aware of this would ethically want to buy And, Ron, I think we always have to discern. Between laws and ethics. Because laws can be immoral and unethical. Just take the topic dispossession and/or compulsory sale, like some of the meteorite laws dictate. Like for instance, let's say in parts auf Australia, where, if a meteorite from space, an ownerless object therefore, if it falls on your very head, when you're standing on your own land and property, you are forced to give it to the state. That is certainly no ethical law. We here in Germany learned it the very hard way, that if a group of a few people decides, that they want to have a category of objects and that the citizens have to deliver these objects to them, losing their ownership, that such laws are highly unethical. We had such occurrences under the fascism and then in the East under the communism. And till today after 70 years the state is occupied with restoring the ownership of property, which then was dispossessed based on such laws. (Btw. that was also the reason why Germany tried to chicken out for almost 40 years to set up its national list of heritage, like the 1970er convention stipulates). And in fact such laws can be even illegal by themselves. In constitutional states, rule of law, such laws can be challenged. To be proven whether they are conform with the constitution and whether they are valid at all. In several countries I'd have my doubts, that they are. That meteorite laws aren't challenged is probably, because meteorites in general are such a whack and rare stuff, that nearly nobody is interested in, neither in possible laws about them. Now with Egypt, I've no idea, what for laws do exist or not, I know only, that Egypt is the only desert country, which didn't profit from the Sahara-Boom, as it has even less published meteorites than small and humid Germany(), neither had I personally ever heard, that there is any form of meteorite research or any institutional meteorite collection, but I think, as it's not about only a meteorite, but a pretty crater, maybe it should be protected as a natural monument or smth like that.. I stay out from that Egypt thing...don't know enough about it, to discuss. Wanted only to say, for a meaningful discussion about laws, the existing laws with their texts must be on the table and secondly that ethics and laws can be sometimes two very different animals. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von R N Hartman Gesendet: Dienstag, 31. August 2010 09:09 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil question Good morning all: In reference to all the posts and interests regarding Gebel Kamio, it is my understanding that only 20 kilo of Gebel Kamil was approved for removal from the crater for scientific purposes by the research team that explored the crater, and that a quantity was later removed by an unauthorized person who illegally removed meteorites without the Egyptian government's permission, and that no export documents were ever approved for any others by the government. If this is true, then I would like to think no reputable dealer who was aware of this would ethically want to buy and sell this material, (I should like to believe so!). Are these facts indeed true or has something changed that I have not heard about?? I see Gebel Kamil saturating Ebay and I'm wondering whether the Egyptian government is now permitting collecting or whether
Re: [meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil question
Hello Ron, I am sorry, I don't have much of an answer either. Looking in the MetList archives, I did find an email from a member of the Italian team dated Aug. 1, and Mike's translation. (see below) That email does state that the pieces were stolen. Sorry, this is all I found, since I didn't buy any, I didn't particularly pay attention. Also, having been in Egypt, I am well aware of the strictly enforced Egyptian laws regarding any ancient artifacts, but I don't know if they apply to meteorites. Does anybody know more about it? Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Galactic Stone Ironworks Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:45 AM To: py...@libero.it Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] I: Re: Writing on Gebel Kamil iron Hi Giancarlo and List, What an interesting and unfortunate development. Most meteorite collectors and dealers were unaware of the situation at Kamil crater. For those on the List who cannot read Italian, here is a Google translated version of the forum discussion - http://tinyurl.com/29qqopq Does this mean that specimens of Kamil in private hands are illegal? (i.e. Berduc) Best regards, MikeG PS - If these are illegal, then for once, I am glad I didn't receive any of this iron and don't have any. Messaggio originale Da: py...@libero.it Data: 01/08/2010 9.24 A: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.commeteorite-l...@meteoritecentral. com Ogg: Re: [meteorite-list] Writing on Gebel Kamil iron Sorry, but I cannot help you. All the meteorites now on the market are illegally collected and sold because evidently some persons a little time after our expedition give the position of the crater and of the meteorites. In fact after our February 2010 mission all the area was declared from the military autorities off limits and no permission are released to anybody. But clearly some persons went illegally in the area without any permission and they collected many meteorite samples to put its in the market, and evidently numbered some samples. The true history about what happened is online in the forum of my website: http://www.zerzuraclub.org/index.php? option=com_fireboardfunc=viewid=923catid=4Itemid=74#923 Giancarlo Negro In a message dated 8/31/2010 1:08:59 AM Mountain Daylight Time, rhartma...@earthlink.net writes: Good morning all: In reference to all the posts and interests regarding Gebel Kamio, it is my understanding that only 20 kilo of Gebel Kamil was approved for removal from the crater for scientific purposes by the research team that explored the crater, and that a quantity was later removed by an unauthorized person who illegally removed meteorites without the Egyptian government's permission, and that no export documents were ever approved for any others by the government. If this is true, then I would like to think no reputable dealer who was aware of this would ethically want to buy and sell this material, (I should like to believe so!). Are these facts indeed true or has something changed that I have not heard about?? I see Gebel Kamil saturating Ebay and I'm wondering whether the Egyptian government is now permitting collecting or whether additional material is now being allowed out, and what about export papers? Having spent some time in Egypt I know that because of the countries rich abundance of historical artifacts of all kinds including things that can sometimes be found just by kicking the sand, the government has a blanket policy regarding anything that one may want to remove from the country, and the policy is NO, whether specifics are stated or not. Maybe some dealer has traded some of his exotic meteorites or a camel or two for a bucket full of GK. I don't know. May we have a discussion here? I think some clarification and update would be of interest. Someone know something?? Thank You, Ron Hartman __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
