Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
Well Gordon, let's not make the mistake of calling reptiles; dinosuars. They really aren't the same thing, not really even related. When the classification system is modified they will be shown to have more in common with the cow, (reptiles that is). The smaller dinosaurs obviously evolved into birds, as Archaeopteryx lithographica is a clear example of. Life always finds a way. Life on Earth was changed by cataclysmic events more than a few times. It's too bad that really old theories about the evolution of life are still taught to kids in school. I suggest to anyone interested to read about these newer more sensical theories at http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html, or read Dinosaurs under the Big Sky, and Digging Dinosaurs by Jack Horner. This guy was the model for Dr. Alan Grant in the Jurassic Park movies as well as the technical director. His theories about T-rex, being a total scavenger and not a predator at all are controversial in themselves. All I'm saying is stay away from the school text books and try reading something that scares you with all it's new fangled idears Could you name a few of the reptiles that were large and survived? I can't think of one. Even we evolved from a small shrew like creature that probably ate rotten who knows what to survive.Even the Bible gives us a story of Noah's Ark, and how life was utterly swept from the face of the Earth, but yet life found a way. Well anyway, who's got something to say about meteorites?- Edward R. Hodges The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround him... The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself... All progress depends on the unreasonable man.- George Bernard Shaw From: Gordon Trone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:25:46 -0500 There were and are several larger reptiles that obviously survived quite nicely. And they didn't evolve into anything different... so what really happened to the small dinosaurs??? Gordon Trone - Original Message - From: Edward Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang The theory is that after the impact there was a nuclear winter that blocked out the sun long enough to kill off the food sources that would sustain large animals. Since large animal require large quanities of food, it would make sense that they would die out pretty fast. So all that's left are small reptiles, amphibians, small dinosaurs that eventually evolved into birds, and small endothermic mammals. They might have survived on rotting organic matter, molds, fungus, lichen and each other. When the skies cleared, all that were left are the little creatures, and they were the new rulers of the Earth. That's my take on it anyway. - Edward R. Hodges From: George Winters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:03:58 -0600 I always love to debate this issue of impact caused extinction. There is no doubt that an asteroid or some large body struck the earth about 65 million years ago (and many times prior to that event). But the fact that the event happened, does not prove that it was the sole cause for the mass extinction. There are to many holes in the theory. My favorite example, is that the creatures that should have been severely affected such as birds, frogs, turtles and many forms of microscopic life, in fact survived the event. These animals and plants are very sensitive to their environment. Today we are loosing many species because of much less severe changes to habitats Then a large impact would cause. I feel that it is more likely that the impact contributed to the extinction of already weakened groups such as the dinosaurs and other marine and flying reptiles. At 12:56 PM 5/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns2290 Giant dinosaurs arrived with a bang New Scientist May 16, 2002 Dinosaurs may have arrived with a bang, as well as gone out with one. Scientists have found the hallmarks of a meteorite impact and mass extinction in rocks just below strata containing the earliest footprints of large meat-eating dinosaurs. The finding of high levels of iridium metal and fossilised fern spores suggests that a sudden extinction cleared the ecological stage, leaving room for meat-eating dinosaurs to grow suddenly larger. A subsequent, massive meteorite impact about 65 million years ago resulted in the extinction of the creatures. Dinosaurs evolved about 230 million years ago and competed with many other reptiles until the Triassic period ended about 202 million
Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
Fred- The Komodo Dragon wasn't around 65 million years ago, and either were crocodiles like the ones you see now. They have evolved to become a more effeciant and smaller predator. So, can you think over any large Reptiles, that have survived for at least the last 65 million years that are still the same size? The point is that all large creatures were wiped out 65 million years ago. It's not clear if the impact killed them, if the nuclear winter killed them, if they starved, or were wiped out by viruses. The fact remains that ALL large creatures were wiped from the face of the earth, with the possible exception of some sea creatures, 65 million years ago by or from the effects of a large impact. By the way, 10ft., and 25 ft. are hardly large animals when compared to the large animals that existed pre-impact. Let's get this straight for those who are still confused, the Komodo Dragon, and the Crocodile are not dinosaurs that evolved, nor are they related other than in similar appearance to what we imagine dinosaurs might have looked like. After a huge event that wipes out almost all food on the planet is it unreasonable to think that all large un-effecient creature would surely starve, and or die of related complications? Imagine you are a 30 ton animal who survives a fiery impact that destroys everything around you. Now, what do you eat, and exactly how much would you have to eat everyday just to survive? My guess is that if you were a plant-eater you'd have to come up with at least 2 tons of vegetation everyday. Let's remember that there was no grass the way we know it today then. If you were a meat eater, after a while you'd have to feed on sick starving animals which breeds disease, which would eventual be passed to the herd. Global Catastrophic Mass Extinction of all large creatures, not just reptiles. It's all there in the research data, in the ground, and on the web. -Edward R. Hodges From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:37:24 EDT Hello Edward, Two reptiles that are large and survived are the Komodo dragon, length up to 10 feet, and crocodiles, length up to 25 feet. Regards, Fred Hall _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
At 12:22 PM 5/17/2002 -0700, Edward Hodges wrote: Fred- The Komodo Dragon wasn't around 65 million years ago, and either were crocodiles like the ones you see now. They have evolved to become a more effeciant and smaller predator. So, can you think over any large Reptiles, that have survived for at least the last 65 million years that are still the same size? The point is that all large creatures were wiped out 65 million years ago. It's not clear if the impact killed them, if the nuclear winter killed them, if they starved, or were wiped out by viruses. The fact remains that ALL large creatures were wiped from the face of the earth, with the possible exception of some sea creatures, 65 million years ago by or from the effects of a large impact. By the way, 10ft., and 25 ft. are hardly large animals when compared to the large animals that existed pre-impact. What about whales? Anyone know when the first whales appear in the fossil record? I seem to remember something about a fossil find in the afghan/pakistan region that was thought to be transitional between whales as we know them and a land bound animal. Don't know the age of the find though. Pakicephalus I think was the name but I am definitely not positive about that. Steven Steven Singletary 54-1224 Dept. Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences M.I.T. Cambridge, MA 02139 Tel - 617.253.6398 Fax - 617.253.7102 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
whoops, never mind. A few minutes of research reveal that Indocetus ramani (earliest known whale form) is from the lower Eocene - long after our controversial impact. At 03:30 PM 5/17/2002 -0400, S.Singletary wrote: At 12:22 PM 5/17/2002 -0700, Edward Hodges wrote: Fred- The Komodo Dragon wasn't around 65 million years ago, and either were crocodiles like the ones you see now. They have evolved to become a more effeciant and smaller predator. So, can you think over any large Reptiles, that have survived for at least the last 65 million years that are still the same size? The point is that all large creatures were wiped out 65 million years ago. It's not clear if the impact killed them, if the nuclear winter killed them, if they starved, or were wiped out by viruses. The fact remains that ALL large creatures were wiped from the face of the earth, with the possible exception of some sea creatures, 65 million years ago by or from the effects of a large impact. By the way, 10ft., and 25 ft. are hardly large animals when compared to the large animals that existed pre-impact. What about whales? Anyone know when the first whales appear in the fossil record? I seem to remember something about a fossil find in the afghan/pakistan region that was thought to be transitional between whales as we know them and a land bound animal. Don't know the age of the find though. Pakicephalus I think was the name but I am definitely not positive about that. Steven Steven Singletary 54-1224 Dept. Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences M.I.T. Cambridge, MA 02139 Tel - 617.253.6398 Fax - 617.253.7102 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
Dear Edward: First of all, you did not specify how large the surviving reptile had to be. Second, crocodiles have been around for some 200 million years. Regards, Fred Hall
Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
Crocodilians, yes have been around for 100's of millions of years. Like I was telling Fred, The crocodile of today that he was using as his example didn't exist 65 million years ago. I'm not even sure how we got into this, but it's kind of silly. Anyone you ask on the street will tell you that all of the large animals that once ruled the Earth died 65 million years ago. The Supercroc died out, the crocs of today are tiny in comparison. Nit-picking will not change the facts. Everything big with the possible exception of some sea creatures went extinct. Life as it exists on Earth now is the result of 65 million years of evolution from tiny creatures that survived the famine, disease, and nuclear winter. There is no possible way that anything large could have survived, there wasn't food for it to eat. I have nothing more to say, except pick up a book, get on the net, go to a museum, ask your teacher, or better yet blow your teacher away with something that he won't find in the textbooks that are tax dollar is wasted on. Some ideas, and theories seem radical then decades go by and the nuts turn out to be visionaries .-Edward From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 20:42:56 EDT Hello, Crocs have been around for hundreds of millions of years--along with alligators. Jason _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns2290 Giant dinosaurs arrived with a bang New Scientist May 16, 2002 Dinosaurs may have arrived with a bang, as well as gone out with one. Scientists have found the hallmarks of a meteorite impact and mass extinction in rocks just below strata containing the earliest footprints of large meat-eating dinosaurs. The finding of high levels of iridium metal and fossilised fern spores suggests that a sudden extinction cleared the ecological stage, leaving room for meat-eating dinosaurs to grow suddenly larger. A subsequent, massive meteorite impact about 65 million years ago resulted in the extinction of the creatures. Dinosaurs evolved about 230 million years ago and competed with many other reptiles until the Triassic period ended about 202 million years ago. Then most of the competitors vanished and dinosaurs grew to their characteristically monstrous proportions in the Jurassic period that followed. The key to how the dinosaurs came to dominate the land in this way may now have been discovered in the sedimentary rocks laid down over the Triassic-Jurassic boundary in what is now northeastern North America. Devastated landscape The rocks contain few fossil bones, but they preserve both fossil pollen and the footprints of animals that walked beside ancient lakes. Lake levels rose and fell with periodic climate cycles, so the rocks can be finely dated, says Paul Olsen of the Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University. Surveying 80 sites, Olsen's group found that fossil footprints changed from typical Triassic to typical Jurassic groupings in a period of just 50,000 years. In between lay the boundary between the periods, defined by a change in pollen type, and including the layer rich in iridium and fern spores. The fern spores are indicative because ferns spread rapidly over devastated landscapes - sharp peaks of spores also occurred just after the final, cataclysmic impact 65 million years ago. Eat anything The faunal change was also sharp. In the late Triassic, there were lots of different footprints representing many different reptile groups, Olsen told New Scientist. Yet at the start of the Jurassic all you see are dinosaurs, lizards and very small, fully terrestrial crocodiles. And the size of the dinosaurs jumps sharply. Just 50,000 years after the start of the Jurassic, there are tracks of Eubrontes giganteus, a six-metre long predator that Olsen says was nearly twice as massive as the biggest Triassic dinosaur. The meat eaters survived the disaster probably because of their adaptable diets, says Olsen. It is typical for a decimated ecosystem to become dominated by animals that can survive on whatever they can find, he says. Instead of hunting plant-eaters, they're primarily hunting other carnivores and things in the water, such as fish. Not until about 100,000 years after the extinction did a few small plant-eaters start leaving their footprints by the lakes. Michael Benton of the University of Bristol aggress that the rapid change in seen in the dinosaurs suggests it was more of a catastrophic event than people had thought. However, he warns that Olsen's group has studied only one area, while iridium-rich deposits from the impact 65 million years ago have been found at 200 different sites. Journal reference: Science (vol 296, p 1305) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
Hello, I think that the main cause of extinction today isn't changes in climate, but people. I don't think that there is a recent animal that instantly pops into your head that was killed off just because of climate changes, or one that pops into your head after thinking about it for hours. There aren't many. Regards, Jason the 11 year old __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Giant Dinosaurs Arrived With A Bang
Jason, You are absolutely right, Humans are responsible for the extinction of many recent species. But there are local catastrophes such as drought, floods, and disease that do affect smaller populations of animals. As recently as 50 million years ago, the climate changed worldwide, and areas such as south western Wyoming, and parts of Utah and Colorado started drying. Large lakes disappeared, and whole species of fish, and plants disappeared. My point was that I don't believe we have yet found the common factor that wiped out a whole group of animals. At 08:01 PM 5/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hello, I think that the main cause of extinction today isn't changes in climate, but people. I don't think that there is a recent animal that instantly pops into your head that was killed off just because of climate changes, or one that pops into your head after thinking about it for hours. There aren't many. Regards, Jason the 11 year old __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
