[meteorite-list] In medias res: Morocco Meteorite Meeting
Hi list, well, rumours, gossip, hearsay...I read the abstracts of the topics there and, after the IMHO incompetent statements, we all have to face sporadically by a very few scientists, mainly in media, who have no experiences in hunting and the NWA and Oman situation, but are blaming commerce to plunder irretrievably the scientific information and the monetary value of the patrimony of the desert - I'm content, that there is one unagitated and factual abstract concerning the NWA situation by Devouard, Denise, Messaoudi et al., which maybe could mitigate the second abstract by Mostefaoui, Bounatiro, Bourout-Denise, which in a vehement way accuses dealers and scientists likewise to loot the meteoritical treasure of Algeria. All other abstracts about desert meteorites aren't tangent to the topic of the commercialism in the NWA-field and don't mention a possible opposition between science and private trade, nor do they contain any recommendations to create a legal status, no matter of which kind, for the desert stones. The abstracts are found here: http://www.fsac.ac.ma/meteorite/Casablanca_abstracts[2].pdf Abstract # 9024 - What shall we do with all those meteorites from Sahara And Abstract # 9019 - The most recent El-Idrissa fall, and since then more and more unlocalized finds. Here the text bodies. And folks, as we, private collectors, suppliers, hunters, dealers - who are said to be solely responsible for that desert mess and, I fear, convictable and causative, that such a huge variety and mass of meteorites were recovered in a frequency and a volume, which in regard of the short time is absolutely unique in the 200 years lasting history of meteoritics, but, if one hears some assertations, seems to be for some scientists no reason for elation, but rather a sad and enormous calamity and as we of course are laymen and as collectors, dealers and hunters and as accused ones of course not worthy to move a foot in the holy halls of science and thus never any representative of us, even not those directly from those fields, which are so eagerly discussed also by such experts, who rather unwillingly like to leave their snug bureaus, will be heard, let's discuss the abstracts here on the list, cause we haven't any other place, sniff. (and then we have to collect some money to sent an IMCA director there to produce our point of view there... Huhuhu I imagine Norbert and Christian singing in front of the closed fortresslike hotel doors: We shall overcohoohohhme... and throwing achondrites after the police cavalry) Yayaya, of course the latter paragraph is polemic and provocative, don't take it to serious ;-) but necessarily so, cause I want to generate more postings about this topic than about e.g. the epistemological aspects of ebay feedbacks. Here now for the additional dramatisation first the incendiary speech about the Algerian stones, followed by the more composed abstract, which contains some direct answers on the questions posed in the first one. Buckleboo! Martin 9019 Introduction: Algerian desert meteorites (ADMs) are one of the important contributors to the world meteorite collection that improves our knowledge of the origin of the solar system and evolution of stars and their environments. While managing other meteorite collections is well controlled, Saharan meteorites and especially the Algeria ones, are out of control and most of them are handled by dealers. Here, we present an overview of the scientific and commercial interests of ADMs. Overview: According to MetBase [1], Algerian desert count 613 documented meteorites, representing more than 15% of the worlds total registered meteorites from hot Sahara. The ADMs (excluding NWA) count 2 SNCs and one lunar. Only two meteorites are known to be preserved in Algeria, El-Idrissia (L6) is in the Centre de Recherche dAstrophysique et Astronomie et Geophysique (CRAAG) Algiers, and Fortflatters (non-class.) is in the Saharan Museum in Ouargla, southwest of Algeria. Meteorite Falls and the El-Idrissia Story: Among the ADMs, seven are observed falls. The first observed fall is the Aumale (L6) meteorite (fallen the same day as Shergotty in India, in August 25, 1865). The most recent one is El-Idrissia. It is also an L6 and it fell on March 10, 1998 [2]. While the oldest fall Aumale is composed of two stones of 25 kg each, the total number of stones and weight of El-Idrissia is still controversial. According to our records, which are contradictory to what has been registered [1], 4 pieces of the meteorite were collected by the habitants of the region, one of which is a single piece of 12 kg and it disappeared after it was brought by the Algerian local authority to the CRAAG. We still do not know where this stone is. Algeria, a Closed/Open Meteorites Market: El-Idrissia is probably one of the many meteorites that crossed the borders to land in one of the overseas meteorite collections. Despite an Algerian law explicitly preventing exportation of
AW: [meteorite-list] In medias res: Morocco Meteorite Meeting
Ooops, so silent - although it's by far the most important topic of the last years for collectors and dealers likewise... Sume points, to get the discussion moving: In fact whether the trade and the hunt of meteorites are restricted or not is nothing else than a political decision. Politicians decide according to recommendations they obtain, as their legislating is of administrative character and in general it is impossible for them to be experts in the topics they have to decide about. Thus such an international meeting can make an impact. And here I see cause for concern, because I fear, that the argumentation there naturally is biased, as in past never the groups, which are the protagonists of that mechanism of the NWA-trade, were incorporated in the discourse, as there are the US- and European retail dealers, the Moroccan brokers, the foreign professional hunters and the nameless finders of desert countries, who deliver their stones to the market in Morocco. Aside animosities between the groups of different interests and backgrounds, I guess, not to ask them was a lapse, cause who could have a better insight into the situation of the NWA field, than those, whose daily work it is to handle that stuff. We all saw to what for distortion of the facts that lopsided view has led. On the other hand, many meteorites are marketed wholesale at low prices I'm s thankful for that sentence! Because the overestimation of the monetary value (or market prices) as well as the volume of the desert finds, was hardly bearable anymore. Thank you Michel Franco, that you remind me, that Algerian police, customs and gendarmerie was instructed about meteorites by Algerian university professors. Here from the newspaper article - which Pélé translated for us - what they were actually told then last year: ...Ouargla. This phenomenon is obviously far from being a fact various since only one gram of a meteorite costs between 10 000 and 20 000 dollars, according to precise details' of the gendarmerie. Better still, the gram of a meteorite of the type chassignite culminates with... 70 000 US dollars. It is thus permissible to imagine the amazing sums garnered by these plundering tourists on the back of the Algerians. And the foreign laboratories of research in geology, astronomy and geophysics, inter alia, are particularly fond of delicacies for these small objects which are worth gold because of their scientific value. And they are ready to put the full price to obtain them Well, last year, as still today, you can buy those Algerian meteorites in retail in the western and northern world everywhere at 0.05-0.10/g, would have to look, but that desert Chassignite (one single small stone out of thousands desert finds of the recent 20 years) is sold at 3500$/g - 4500$/g. I never heard, that ever an institute or a private person paid 70.000$/g for a meteorite (with the only exception of the first crumbs of Calcalong Creek in the 90ies) and by my best will, there exists and existed since 6 years, hence during all the time of the NWA-rush only one stone, Chassigny itself, which could be paid with 10.000-20.000$/g. So if I am mild and won't accuse those Algerian luminaries of a purposeful lie, I have to say, that they obviously have no notion at all of the complex they bemoan, nor about the Algerian stones, which they try to protect, a factor certainly highly problematic in that respect, that those professors should preserve, curate and scientifically work on that stones in Algeria in future. Another circumstance is, that to the most involved parties in that discussion the true dimensions of the volume of the desert finds might be not clear, whereas such estimations of course are an uncertain task, but if we recall Grossmann's compilation from the Bulletin database, containing all classified and filed meteorites until the end of last year, hence also ALL non-desert finds, the HUGE volume of the Antarctic finds, the falls and finally all NWAs and Omanis, (while with the latter we haven't the problem with the bad documentation and unreported cases, as their we haven't structures like in Sahara and the meteorites can't be bought there, but must be found) and when we additionally keep in mind, that predominantly the rarer and rarest types from Sahara are and will be classified, because else one can't sell them at adequate prices and in fact with OCs there is no money to make those years, and thus it's of vital interest for the dealers, to get them published and numbered, and if we show to ourselves plainly that from all meteorites 90% of the weight are contributed by the irons and stony-irons, and because there aren't almost no irons found in Sahara and Oman, than we can presume, that the dark figure of unreported or yet unreported material is not unmanageably huge. Here again the figures for ALL known meteorites: Meteorites total: 581 tons. Ordinary Chondrites: 52 tons Carbonaceous Chondrites: 3 tons (bonjour Allende with
Re: [meteorite-list] In medias res: Morocco Meteorite Meeting
Hello Martin, Here is some discussion of your post from me. Do not feel discouraged that the response to your posts is not deafening, many probably do read them and learn from them; I received no list discussion of my Dhofar 007 post from yesterday, and yet still feel that it does find an audience in those among this list who remain here for purposes more similar to mine. Perhaps the ebay feedback issue only has a few more days to run its course. I can say about Abstract # 9019 - The most recent El-Idrissa fall, and since then more and more unlocalized finds - that it reminds me of some posts to the list from a time ago, but which also included comments about the contribution to terrorism from the NWA market. The tone of this emotional abstract sounds very similar, aside from this omission. The second abstract you provide, # 9024 - What should we do with all those meteorites from Sahara? - seems to take a much more thoughtful enlightened approach to the issue. The issue of inheritance (for scientific, educational, and aesthetic purposes) of NWA meteorites was not even a topic that could be considered and debated before the market forces enabled its accumulation. I'm glad some reasoned minds are involved in this meeting, and I hope they prevail. David Martin Altmann wrote: Hi list, well, rumours, gossip, hearsay...I read the abstracts of the topics there and, after the IMHO incompetent statements, we all have to face sporadically by a very few scientists, mainly in media, who have no experiences in hunting and the NWA and Oman situation, but are blaming commerce to plunder irretrievably the scientific information and the monetary value of the patrimony of the desert - I'm content, that there is one unagitated and factual abstract concerning the NWA situation by Devouard, Denise, Messaoudi et al., which maybe could mitigate the second abstract by Mostefaoui, Bounatiro, Bourout-Denise, which in a vehement way accuses dealers and scientists likewise to loot the meteoritical treasure of Algeria. All other abstracts about desert meteorites aren't tangent to the topic of the commercialism in the NWA-field and don't mention a possible opposition between science and private trade, nor do they contain any recommendations to create a legal status, no matter of which kind, for the desert stones. The abstracts are found here: http://www.fsac.ac.ma/meteorite/Casablanca_abstracts[2].pdf Abstract # 9024 - What shall we do with all those meteorites from Sahara And Abstract # 9019 - The most recent El-Idrissa fall, and since then more and more unlocalized finds. Here the text bodies. And folks, as we, private collectors, suppliers, hunters, dealers - who are said to be solely responsible for that desert mess and, I fear, convictable and causative, that such a huge variety and mass of meteorites were recovered in a frequency and a volume, which in regard of the short time is absolutely unique in the 200 years lasting history of meteoritics, but, if one hears some assertations, seems to be for some scientists no reason for elation, but rather a sad and enormous calamity and as we of course are laymen and as collectors, dealers and hunters and as accused ones of course not worthy to move a foot in the holy halls of science and thus never any representative of us, even not those directly from those fields, which are so eagerly discussed also by such experts, who rather unwillingly like to leave their snug bureaus, will be heard, let's discuss the abstracts here on the list, cause we haven't any other place, sniff. (and then we have to collect some money to sent an IMCA director there to produce our point of view there... Huhuhu I imagine Norbert and Christian singing in front of the closed fortresslike hotel doors: We shall overcohoohohhme... and throwing achondrites after the police cavalry) Yayaya, of course the latter paragraph is polemic and provocative, don't take it to serious ;-) but necessarily so, cause I want to generate more postings about this topic than about e.g. the epistemological aspects of ebay feedbacks. Here now for the additional dramatisation first the incendiary speech about the Algerian stones, followed by the more composed abstract, which contains some direct answers on the questions posed in the first one. Buckleboo! Martin 9019 Introduction: Algerian desert meteorites (ADMs) are one of the important contributors to the world meteorite collection that improves our knowledge of the origin of the solar system and evolution of stars and their environments. While managing other meteorite collections is well controlled, Saharan meteorites and especially the Algeria ones, are out of control and most of them are handled by dealers. Here, we present an overview of the scientific and commercial interests of ADMs. Overview: According to MetBase [1], Algerian desert count 613 documented meteorites, representing more than 15% of the worlds total registered meteorites
