Re: [meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market (Rebuttal)
Hi List, I tried several times to post a rebuttal to this article, but it wouldn't let me. So I will post it here. Hi All, I am afraid I came across as hostile in my first post. That was not my intent. I would like to answer some points raised in the article : Article - Martian meteorites are known to sell for around $1,000 per gram. As a result, Harvey added, “The prices go up and up.” Not true. Many Martian meteorites sell for much less than $1000/gram. Pieces of the new Tissint fall were selling for less than $400/gram at the onset of the event. And one only has to look at Mr. Twelker's Meteorite Market website to see several different Mars meteorites selling for well under $1000/gram. Meteorites that are sold in micromount form typically sell for high prices per gram, but this does not translate to larger specimens. What a 10mg specimen sells for is no indication of what a 10g specimen will sell for. Article - The market value of meteorites began to rise in the late 1990s WRONG. Meteorite prices began to DROP in the early 1990's due to the increased availability of specimens coming out of Northwest Africa. Prices have dropped dramatically since that time. Many old-school collectors who built their collections prior to this period paid $10,000/gram or more for lunar meteorites. Now, lunar meteorites can be found for well under $1000/g. In fact, I just bought some lunar material this week for under $500/g. The same can be said for rare types like howardites and other achondrites. HED meteorites can now be purchased for less than $10/g, prior to the 1990's, these same meteorites sold for 10-times as much (if you could find them). The author of this article would have seen this if she had bothered to do any research beyond reading some sensational articles published in other media outlets. Article - At a New York City auction in 1998, the American Museum of Natural History spent a record-breaking $137,000 on a slice of a pallasite meteorite, whose luminous amber-toned crystals gleamed against a silvery nickel-iron matrix. Weeks later, an 18-pound iron meteorite was sold for $97,000 at an auction in San Francisco. These were flukes and those prices have never been attained since then. Auction prices are no indicator of the larger market. Two anxious bidders can drive up the price of any item well beyond it's true market value. Just take a look at eBay to see numerous examples of collectibles selling for prices that are downright silly. Article - “The skill level that some collectors have to get stones out of Africa rivals that of drug dealers,” says Dr. Harvey. “It’s clear that meteorites are so valuable to these collectors that they’re more than happy to get them and worry about the cost in terms of legality later on.” This is wrong and slanderous. Sure, there are a few bad apples in every group, including amongst scientists. For every unethical meteorite hunter, there are dozens who uphold the law and adhere to ethical standards. Article - But the quantity of meteorites being sent back from Antarctica isn’t enough, according to Harvey. “There’s lots and lots of demand,” he says. “If we magically started bringing back ten times as many meteorites as we do now, they’d still all get studied.” This is a half-truth at best. The ANSMET program brings back plenty of material for research. Some analytical techniques only require a few milligrams for research. A 10-gram chunk of meteorite will provide enough material for several dozen graduate students. JSC has vaults filled with hundreds of kilograms of material, and most of that will never be used for research. Article - “We are competing within a commercial market, although we have extremely limited finances,” said Dr. Smith. “There’s a danger in the price hiking of the market. Institutions without much money to purchase things may be priced out.” Not true. Institutions rarely (if ever) pay the same price that collectors do on the open market. Institutions benefit from partnerships with private hunters and often receive significant amounts of free donated material. Museum curators are not bidding on eBay auctions. Article - “We are competing within a commercial market, although we have extremely limited finances,” said Dr. Smith. “There’s a danger in the price hiking of the market. Institutions without much money to purchase things may be priced out.” Again, not true. How many institutions are out there bidding on eBay or purchasing from commercial dealers? Open market prices do not reflect what institutions and museums pay. In fact, many scientists and curators benefit from generous donations of material from the private sector. Speaking for myself, I have donated material free of charge numerous times to institutions for research. Article - Nevertheless, the sum well exceeded the museum’s annual acquisition budget (neither Dr. Smith nor Pitt would disclose the
Re: [meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market Article
I agree with what Adam (and Mike) are saying. Dr. Harvey's over the top analogy comparing collectors to drug dealers is unprofessional, totally unnecessary, and certainly not helpful to meaningful cooperation between scientists and collectors. '“There is a market out there that treats these [meteorites] as collectibles and curios, almost as though they were fine art or ancient artifacts,” Dr. Harvey explains.' Curio means: an unusual object; ancient means: really old. Well, if 500 million year-old magma ejected from the Martian surface that then took a million years to find its way to the Earth's surface isn't an ancient, collectible curio, what the heck is! Regards, Daniel Noyes Original Message Subject: Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 108, Issue 6 From: meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, June 06, 2012 9:00 am To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Send Meteorite-list mailing list submissions to meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com You can reach the person managing the list at meteorite-list-ow...@meteoritecentral.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Meteorite-list digest... Today's Topics: 1. We are Stardust! (valpar...@aol.com) 2. Re: International Meteorite Market (Michael Gilmer) 3. Transit of Venus to take place in less then an hour! (Don Merchant) 4. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then an hour! (Graham Ensor) 5. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then anhour! (Richard Montgomery) 6. 54 Auctions Ending In A Few Hours! (Adam Hupe) 7. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then anhour! (karmaka) 8. Venus Live NOW happening witness it! (drtanuki) 9. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then an hour! (chris handler) 10. help with Identifying (Wade) 11. Venus transit in HI (tracy latimer) 12. Transit of Venus Pictures I took for all to see!! (Don Merchant) 13. Re: Venus transit in HI (Mike Tettenborn) 14. Bolide Meteor Fireball Over TX KS OK AR MO 5JUN2012 (drtanuki) 15. Breaking News- MBIQ Detects Meteor Fireball PA OH ONT WI 05JUN2012 (drtanuki) 16. Re: Glatton meteorite returns home for the Jubilee weekend (Martin Goff) 17. Queens diamond jubilee celebration at Glatton with the return of the Glatton meteorite (Martin Goff) 18. Meteorite Picture of the Day (valpar...@aol.com) 19. Re: Queens diamond jubilee celebration at Glatton with the return of the Glatton meteorite (Count Deiro) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:25:56 -0700 From: valpar...@aol.com Subject: [meteorite-list] We are Stardust! To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: 84430E4DDCFE48D1BD80CE00428CDD05@vpoffsiteweb.local Content-Type: text/plain Outstanding. Paul Swartz Cosmologist Neal de Grasse Tyson and others on the origins of man...musically. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=61e_1338836306 -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:17:07 -0400 From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: cakbpjw8h-dekj78uzcxlmctv2g5jqtvip9f9tpgmhfpn_ga...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I agree with Adam 100%, and my comment to the article says as much. I really wish writers would stick to subjects they actually know something about. This article is nothing more than slander. -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/5/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Spoken by somebody who is obviously out of touch: ?The skill level that some collectors have to get stones out of Africa rivals that of drug dealers,? says Dr. Harvey. ?It?s clear that meteorites are so valuable to these collectors that they?re more than happy to get them and worry about the cost in terms of legality later on.? More of this drug dealer crap. Some people will never learn. Cutting down other markets will not build up the case for more Antarctic funding. Collaboration is where it is at. This latest falls have demonstrated this handily! It appears a balance was struck and now we have out-of-touch, old-school thinking creeping out of nowhere when it is totally unnecessary. The meteorite market would be considered near pristine if compared to other markets. One just needs to look at the gemstone, fossil and artifact
Re: [meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market Article
We will just have to include Dr. Harvey to the do not donate to list when a new fall hits. We do not need uniformed people representing our avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam - Original Message - From: i...@moonmarsrocks.com i...@moonmarsrocks.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market Article I agree with what Adam (and Mike) are saying. Dr. Harvey's over the top analogy comparing collectors to drug dealers is unprofessional, totally unnecessary, and certainly not helpful to meaningful cooperation between scientists and collectors. '“There is a market out there that treats these [meteorites] as collectibles and curios, almost as though they were fine art or ancient artifacts,” Dr. Harvey explains.' Curio means: an unusual object; ancient means: really old. Well, if 500 million year-old magma ejected from the Martian surface that then took a million years to find its way to the Earth's surface isn't an ancient, collectible curio, what the heck is! Regards, Daniel Noyes Original Message Subject: Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 108, Issue 6 From: meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, June 06, 2012 9:00 am To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Send Meteorite-list mailing list submissions to meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com You can reach the person managing the list at meteorite-list-ow...@meteoritecentral.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Meteorite-list digest... Today's Topics: 1. We are Stardust! (valpar...@aol.com) 2. Re: International Meteorite Market (Michael Gilmer) 3. Transit of Venus to take place in less then an hour! (Don Merchant) 4. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then an hour! (Graham Ensor) 5. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then anhour! (Richard Montgomery) 6. 54 Auctions Ending In A Few Hours! (Adam Hupe) 7. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then anhour! (karmaka) 8. Venus Live NOW happening witness it! (drtanuki) 9. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then an hour! (chris handler) 10. help with Identifying (Wade) 11. Venus transit in HI (tracy latimer) 12. Transit of Venus Pictures I took for all to see!! (Don Merchant) 13. Re: Venus transit in HI (Mike Tettenborn) 14. Bolide Meteor Fireball Over TX KS OK AR MO 5JUN2012 (drtanuki) 15. Breaking News- MBIQ Detects Meteor Fireball PA OH ONT WI 05JUN2012 (drtanuki) 16. Re: Glatton meteorite returns home for the Jubilee weekend (Martin Goff) 17. Queens diamond jubilee celebration at Glatton with the return of the Glatton meteorite (Martin Goff) 18. Meteorite Picture of the Day (valpar...@aol.com) 19. Re: Queens diamond jubilee celebration at Glatton with the return of the Glatton meteorite (Count Deiro) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:25:56 -0700 From: valpar...@aol.com Subject: [meteorite-list] We are Stardust! To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: 84430E4DDCFE48D1BD80CE00428CDD05@vpoffsiteweb.local Content-Type: text/plain Outstanding. Paul Swartz Cosmologist Neal de Grasse Tyson and others on the origins of man...musically. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=61e_1338836306 -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:17:07 -0400 From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: cakbpjw8h-dekj78uzcxlmctv2g5jqtvip9f9tpgmhfpn_ga...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I agree with Adam 100%, and my comment to the article says as much. I really wish writers would stick to subjects they actually know something about. This article is nothing more than slander. -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/5/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Spoken by somebody who is obviously out of touch: ?The skill level that some collectors have to get stones out of Africa rivals that of drug dealers,? says Dr. Harvey. ?It?s clear that meteorites are so valuable to these collectors that they?re more than happy to get them and worry about the cost in terms of legality later on.? More of this drug dealer crap. Some people will never learn. Cutting down other markets will not build up
[meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market
Interesting article: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/the-international-meteorite-market/ Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth and Space Museum __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market
Spoken by somebody who is obviously out of touch: “The skill level that some collectors have to get stones out of Africa rivals that of drug dealers,” says Dr. Harvey. “It’s clear that meteorites are so valuable to these collectors that they’re more than happy to get them and worry about the cost in terms of legality later on.” More of this drug dealer crap. Some people will never learn. Cutting down other markets will not build up the case for more Antarctic funding. Collaboration is where it is at. This latest falls have demonstrated this handily! It appears a balance was struck and now we have out-of-touch, old-school thinking creeping out of nowhere when it is totally unnecessary. The meteorite market would be considered near pristine if compared to other markets. One just needs to look at the gemstone, fossil and artifact markets to conclude this. Happy Hunting, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Meteorite Market
I agree with Adam 100%, and my comment to the article says as much. I really wish writers would stick to subjects they actually know something about. This article is nothing more than slander. -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 6/5/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Spoken by somebody who is obviously out of touch: “The skill level that some collectors have to get stones out of Africa rivals that of drug dealers,” says Dr. Harvey. “It’s clear that meteorites are so valuable to these collectors that they’re more than happy to get them and worry about the cost in terms of legality later on.” More of this drug dealer crap. Some people will never learn. Cutting down other markets will not build up the case for more Antarctic funding. Collaboration is where it is at. This latest falls have demonstrated this handily! It appears a balance was struck and now we have out-of-touch, old-school thinking creeping out of nowhere when it is totally unnecessary. The meteorite market would be considered near pristine if compared to other markets. One just needs to look at the gemstone, fossil and artifact markets to conclude this. Happy Hunting, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
