Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone
Hello Dave, All, If indeed the Adamana meteorite is the front piece of the Holbrook, and I'm NOT saying it is The idea of a 'front piece' of the Holbrook mass is something that I find completely ridiculous. Stress mechanics alone state that anything at the front of the object would be subjected to much greater stress than the remainder of the stone and would therefore be the first part of the stone to fragment. There's simply no reason whatsoever for the trailing remainder of the meteorite to so violently explode, seeing as it must have been subjected to much lesser forces. If, however, it were simply a small portion of a larger 'main mass' of Holbrook that one hypothesizes must have traveled an additional number of miles past the known termination of the strewnfield, you might have the basis for some sort of multiple-fragmentation, the likes of which has *never* been seen before, with at least two distribution ellipses separated my miles of 'barren' land. I, however, find this about equally unlikely as the previously mentioned possibility, if not more so. then it would have the thickest primary crust out of any other portion of the fall. Why? There's no reason for such a 'front piece,' even supposing it could exist, to not fragment later into multiple pieces just as the remainder of the fall had. In all probability, if such a 'front piece' existed, this would most likely be a portion that broke off of it, and as such, its crust would most likely be the same as the rest of the fall. That said, you do seem to acknowledge the fact that it's crust does, in general, appear to be much more thick/different in appearance than that of Holbrook, to say nothing of the interior... There are pictures of original finds that have chondrules as much as 5-7 mm in diameter. I know. Holbrook has much larger chondrules than that of Adamana, at least as well as can be seen on the broken surfaces. Also, one has to keep in mind that it was found in a horse corral. I'm sure acidic horse urine and different soil conditions could have some kind of effect on it as well...IF it was. Versus sitting in a watershed plain next to an annually torrential wash? Different soil conditions might create a difference in weathering (though if it is, as you say, a mere four miles away, I doubt there would be any difference at all), but horse urine effects would be negligible at best...corrals are used sporadically at best anyways, to say nothing of the fact that annual rainfall. In fact, while the horse urine would be acidic, it would take rain/moisture to disassociate the ions in order to actually create any acidic effects - and as we all know, when it rains in Az, it pours...and would wash all of the acid downriver and out of the soil anyways. I'm just saying that I for one, am not quite ready to throw the half-baked theory in the trashyet. Eh, I grant you that there's a small chance Adamana's a part of Holbrook...in my opinion, very, very small. Actually, the Adamana Meteorite was found 11 miles from Arntz (aka Aztec). Not quite all the way to Adamana which is 13 miles as the meteor flies. (I did some remeasuring). And, if the Goodwater theory is correct, then you are only talking about 4 miles. According to the July 26, 1912 article on the Holbrook Argus: There was a heavy explosion similar to that of a heavy blast followed by a fuscillade of smaller explosions which terminated in a thunder-like rumble of approximately two minutes in duration. In Warren Foote's Preliminary Notes of the July 19, 1912 Meteoric Fall at Aztec, Arizona, he writes: It was heard in Concho, St. Joseph, Woodruff, and Pinedale, some 40 miles away. One large explosion was quickly followed by several small ones in rapid succession. Firstly, the strewnfield has varying descriptions in almost every paper that I've seen. I just read a paper in which Kring stated that the strewnfield was ~1.5 sq. miles, a writeup by the DeLanges that states that it was ~1 by ~1/2 miles. I'm looking into Farrington - a little hard for me while I'm at school ;) Now it's more like 3 miles long by 1 mile wide and growing. Even Warren Foote mentions this dimension in 1912. Again, conflicting reports...though by now, erosion could have made the field that large even if it hadn't been as big to start out with...that would explain the 'growing' aspect of it I guess. In any case, I cannot consider myself a judge, seeing as I was not there at the time of the fall, as were several well regarded scientific figures, who gave conflicting reports. HmmmI've never heard that before. I'd like to know where you read/heard that information as that is interesting to me. According to Foote: The large and small stones, according to all answers received, were said to be indiscriminately spread over the ground, without regard to size. The violent disruptions near Holbrook might account for the lack of such a separation If, as you say, there truly was
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone
Jason Utas wrote: Hello All, There are a few things that separate Adamana from Holbrook in my mind... The texture of the crust alone of Adamana versus that of Holbrook leaves me little doubt that the two could possibly be paired. Hi Jason, I think you meant to say that the two could NOT possibly be paired? Not trying to argue, just think a few points need to be said. The fusion crust of Adamana is a matte black, which contrasts sharply with the crust of recently found Holbrooks, which exhibit a typically blue/black almost shiny crust in most cases, often liberally spread with rust spots. The interior tells the same story - Adamana is a uniform brown, with chondrules poking out here and there. Recently found Holbrooks tend to be less weathered internally, if not more externally, and their dark chondrules contrast starkly with the lighter matrix, creating a much more heterogeneous appearance than that of Adamana. If indeed the Adamana meteorite is the front piece of the Holbrook, and I'm NOT saying it is, then it would have the thickest primary crust out of any other portion of the fall. There are pictures of original finds that have chondrules as much as 5-7 mm in diameter. Also, one has to keep in mind that it was found in a horse corral. I'm sure acidic horse urine and different soil conditions could have some kind of effect on it as well...IF it was. I'm just saying that I for one, am not quite ready to throw the half-baked theory in the trashyet. The location of the find Fifteen miles is simply impossible, unless it was artificially transported. Actually, the Adamana Meteorite was found 11 miles from Arntz (aka Aztec). Not quite all the way to Adamana which is 13 miles as the meteor flies. (I did some remeasuring). And, if the Goodwater theory is correct, then you are only talking about 4 miles. According to the July 26, 1912 article on the Holbrook Argus: There was a heavy explosion similar to that of a heavy blast followed by a fuscillade of smaller explosions which terminated in a thunder-like rumble of approximately two minutes in duration. In Warren Foote's Preliminary Notes of the July 19, 1912 Meteoric Fall at Aztec, Arizona, he writes: It was heard in Concho, St. Joseph, Woodruff, and Pinedale, some 40 miles away. One large explosion was quickly followed by several small ones in rapid succession. The mapped strewnfield was roughly one mile long by a half mile wide. Now it's more like 3 miles long by 1 mile wide and growing. Even Warren Foote mentions this dimension in 1912. The largest stone recovered, weighing in at ~14.5 lbs, was found at the end of this ellipse. HmmmI've never heard that before. I'd like to know where you read/heard that information as that is interesting to me. According to Foote: The large and small stones, according to all answers received, were said to be indiscriminately spread over the ground, without regard to size. The violent disruptions near Holbrook might account for the lack of such a separation The possibility that anything made it farther than this stone is great - In recent years, say the last 40, the larger finds that I know of have been about in the center of the known field and on both sides of the tracks. I and others have found many smaller ones further north and east of these larger stones. I would like to know where the main mass was found, but I've never been able to dig that up yet. However, I've never read or heard anywhere that it was found at the furthest point of the field. it wouldn't surprise me too greatly if a 20lber was found another quarter of a mile on (it could've buried itself on impact, etc), but to say that a smaller stone continued another fifteen miles beyond the known end of the strewnfield is simply ridiculous, With all the numerous explosions, why not another 11 miles? Some parts must have still been ablating after the main explosion to have more explosions. At say, 7 miles per second (just as an aribitrary figure), it wouldn't take long to cover that distance. There is still quite a bit of material still missing off of Haag's aerodynamic piece too. But, certainly not enough to make it come close to being the main mass. to say nothing of the fact that it is much too far north to even be near the same path as the body that created the Holbrook strewnfield. Huh? In the Holbrook Argus article, it states: The sky was lightly overcast with patches of high floating clouds, but immediately after the explosion a smoky trail similar to the smoke of an automobile's exhaust was visible. The trail disappeared in a LITTLE NORTH of east in direction. Well, Arntz is ENE of Holbrook and Adamana is ENE of Arntz. The strewn field and the railroad tracks are in a ENE orientation. Drawing a line from Holbrook through Arntz takes you right to Adamanain fact, this line can possibly go a little bit
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone
Hello All, There are a few things that separate Adamana from Holbrook in my mind... The texture of the crust alone of Adamana versus that of Holbrook leaves me little doubt that the two could possibly be paired. The fusion crust of Adamana is a matte black, which contrasts sharply with the crust of recently found Holbrooks, which exhibit a typically blue/black almost shiny crust in most cases, often liberally spread with rust spots. The interior tells the same story - Adamana is a uniform brown, with chondrules poking out here and there. Recently found Holbrooks tend to be less weathered internally, if not more externally, and their dark chondrules contrast starkly with the lighter matrix, creating a much more heterogeneous appearance than that of Adamana. Adamana appears to have been weathered for a prolonged period of time in much drier conditions than all newly found Holbrooks that I've seen; its interior is uniformly weathered and yet the exterior remains virtually untouched, whereas, as can be seen by Larry's recent Holbrook find, the meteorite appears to have weathered more outside than in, to the point of decomposition, even though the matrix appears to have been less stained by rust. This, however, is at least partly due to the friability of Holbrook (Adamana does not appear to share this trait with the Holbrook fall). Whereas, when holding Adamana, I noticed that the broken edges appeared to have been somewhat polished by weathering (a very slight amount), all weathered Holbrooks that I've seen of any great size have simply fragmented given the same amount of weathering. The location of the find Fifteen miles is simply impossible, unless it was artificially transported. The mapped strewnfield was roughly one mile long by a half mile wide. The largest stone recovered, weighing in at ~14.5 lbs, was found at the end of this ellipse. The possibility that anything made it farther than this stone is great - it wouldn't surprise me too greatly if a 20lber was found another quarter of a mile on (it could've buried itself on impact, etc), but to say that a smaller stone continued another fifteen miles beyond the known end of the strewnfield is simply ridiculous, to say nothing of the fact that it is much too far north to even be near the same path as the body that created the Holbrook strewnfield. My $.02, Jason On 2/22/07, Mike Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Here is an image of the cast of the Venus Stone from Bob's site. http://www.meteoriteman.com/graphics/venus.jpg He sells them for $100 each. My brother and I both picked up one at the Tucson show this year. If I remember correctly he said those were the last ones he had for sale. But you might email him to see if he has any more for sale. http://www.meteoriteman.com/misc.htm Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 2/22/07, R. N. Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex wrote NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake of getting some classification data! Then cut the cast instead. :=) (He!He!) Ron - Original Message - From: Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone I am also the lucky owner of one of those Venus stone casts from Bob Haag. Beautiful! And you know why he called this one the Venus stone..?? :-) This is one very special nice example of a flight-oriented meteorite, where the rule applies: NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake of getting some classification data! Why? Because a cut would destroy the character of the piece! And so we don´t know what´s inside this beautiful meteorite, we can only make some assumptions from non-destructive observation. Alex Berlin/Germany Original-Nachricht Datum: 22 Feb 2007 18:11:00 UT Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com CC: Betreff: [meteorite-list] Larry\'s Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag\'s Venus Stone Hello Moni and List, Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Dave Andrews wrote to the List: Hi List, The Adamana or Venus Stone was found in the Adamana landfill. Near the Petrified Forest/Painted Desert boundary. (about 15 miles NE of Holbrook on I-40). Evidently someone just didn't want it anymore or didn't know what they had. It was found by a rancher target practicing with his 0.22 rifle. With the selling of the piece to Bob, I heard he purchased a new mobile home to live in. I have one of the casts, and it looks very real. It looks so real, that I think I'll put it up on eBay with a $15,000 reserve. (just kidding :o) Regards, Dave I got one of these casts too many years ago and they do look real! Best wishes, Bernd
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone
I heard that Robert Haag sold the Venus stone. So, I guess he can't get it classified even if he wanted to now. Howard Steffic From: Robert Verish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list Meteoritecentral meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com CC: Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:37:43 -0800 (PST) -- Original Message - [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone Alexander Seidel gsac at gmx.net Fri Feb 23 13:11:02 EST 2007 ... [Classification] could be done on the quite unspectacular backside of the stone. Do you know why Bob Haag doesn´t want this to be done? Perhaps this may have to do with the ongoing Holbrook discussion in a way... Best wishes, Alex Berlin/Germany - End of Original Message -- Good question, Alex! I don't see a down side for Bob Haag should he get his Venus Stone classified. The odds that the results would show his stone is not paired to Holbrook look quite good, and then Bob would find himself again the sole owner of a unique Arizona meteorite. Wouldn't that be a plus? But, maybe there is a down side. Maybe if it is shown to be not paired to Holbrook, then its provenance may become unsettled. That's why I hope that another piece can be independently found. Then we could get the name Adamana (or Goodwater Ranch) approved and finally get this in the books as an official Arizona meteorite. Bob V. P.S. - I'm still looking for better images of the back side of the Venus Stone in order to compare it to images of large Holbrook stones with exposed, weathered interior surfaces, but this is all that I could find: http://www.meteorman.org/Adamana.JPG http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2003/October/holbrook.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2004/December/holbrook.jpg http://www.meteorite.com/gallery/mh_holbrook.jpg http://www.nyrockman.com/gallery-pics/holbrook-1950.jpg http://www.nyrockman.com/gallery-pics/holbrook-546.jpg http://www.meteoriteimpact.com/images/holb.jpg http://www.turnstone.ca/holbroo2.jpg http://miac.uqac.ca/MIAC/26.jpg http://www.planetarium.montreal.qc.ca/Information/Expo_Meteorites/Images/fiches/image_holbrook1.jpg http://www.carionmineraux.com/meteorite/meteorite_musee/holbrook_musee_1.jpg http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/icons/main/14.jpg __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Find what you need at prices youll love. Compare products and save at MSN® Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102tcode=T001MSN20A0701 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone
Alex wrote NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake of getting some classification data! Then cut the cast instead. :=) (He!He!) Ron - Original Message - From: Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone I am also the lucky owner of one of those Venus stone casts from Bob Haag. Beautiful! And you know why he called this one the Venus stone..?? :-) This is one very special nice example of a flight-oriented meteorite, where the rule applies: NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake of getting some classification data! Why? Because a cut would destroy the character of the piece! And so we don´t know what´s inside this beautiful meteorite, we can only make some assumptions from non-destructive observation. Alex Berlin/Germany Original-Nachricht Datum: 22 Feb 2007 18:11:00 UT Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com CC: Betreff: [meteorite-list] Larry\'s Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag\'s Venus Stone Hello Moni and List, Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Dave Andrews wrote to the List: Hi List, The Adamana or Venus Stone was found in the Adamana landfill. Near the Petrified Forest/Painted Desert boundary. (about 15 miles NE of Holbrook on I-40). Evidently someone just didn't want it anymore or didn't know what they had. It was found by a rancher target practicing with his 0.22 rifle. With the selling of the piece to Bob, I heard he purchased a new mobile home to live in. I have one of the casts, and it looks very real. It looks so real, that I think I'll put it up on eBay with a $15,000 reserve. (just kidding :o) Regards, Dave I got one of these casts too many years ago and they do look real! Best wishes, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone
Hi Here is an image of the cast of the Venus Stone from Bob's site. http://www.meteoriteman.com/graphics/venus.jpg He sells them for $100 each. My brother and I both picked up one at the Tucson show this year. If I remember correctly he said those were the last ones he had for sale. But you might email him to see if he has any more for sale. http://www.meteoriteman.com/misc.htm Mike -- Mike Jensen Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 303-337-4361 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com On 2/22/07, R. N. Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex wrote NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake of getting some classification data! Then cut the cast instead. :=) (He!He!) Ron - Original Message - From: Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone I am also the lucky owner of one of those Venus stone casts from Bob Haag. Beautiful! And you know why he called this one the Venus stone..?? :-) This is one very special nice example of a flight-oriented meteorite, where the rule applies: NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake of getting some classification data! Why? Because a cut would destroy the character of the piece! And so we don´t know what´s inside this beautiful meteorite, we can only make some assumptions from non-destructive observation. Alex Berlin/Germany Original-Nachricht Datum: 22 Feb 2007 18:11:00 UT Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com CC: Betreff: [meteorite-list] Larry\'s Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag\'s Venus Stone Hello Moni and List, Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Dave Andrews wrote to the List: Hi List, The Adamana or Venus Stone was found in the Adamana landfill. Near the Petrified Forest/Painted Desert boundary. (about 15 miles NE of Holbrook on I-40). Evidently someone just didn't want it anymore or didn't know what they had. It was found by a rancher target practicing with his 0.22 rifle. With the selling of the piece to Bob, I heard he purchased a new mobile home to live in. I have one of the casts, and it looks very real. It looks so real, that I think I'll put it up on eBay with a $15,000 reserve. (just kidding :o) Regards, Dave I got one of these casts too many years ago and they do look real! Best wishes, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
