Re: [meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids in Sudan meteorites
Did I miss the answers to these questions? Sorry if it's already been answered. ;) On 12/30/2010 1:59 PM, Meteorites USA wrote: This raises some very interesting question. If the interior (core) of the smaller stones from smaller meteorite falls such as Murchison, Tagish Lake, Allende, Ash Creek, Mifflin, or any meteorite fall for that matter, are still frozen during entry and upon impact, then would it be a stretch of logic to assume a larger iron mass, such as Canyon Diablo, which was estimated to be 50 meters wide, would also still have a frozen core upon impact? After all it did hold probably most of it's cosmic velocity, meaning it was incandescent for just a few seconds at most, right? Even when you consider iron conducts heat much faster and more efficiently than stone, could such a large mass heat all the way to the core in just a couple few seconds? Regards, Eric On 12/30/2010 1:41 PM, Matson, Robert D. wrote: Hi Mike and List, Have been meaning to post a reply about the article link Mike posted: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/301636 I assume they are talking about Almahata Sitta. I had not heard this before. Yes, Almahata Sitta is right. As we all know, ET amino acids have been found in plenty of carbonaceous meteorites, perhaps most famously within Murchison. So I was curious to find out what was so special about finding them in carbon-rich 2008 TC3 (Almahata Sitta). A quote from the article: "Amino-acids have been found in carbon-rich meteorites before but this is the first time the acid substances have been found in a meteorite as hot as 2,000 Fahrenheit (1,100c). This naturally heated hot rock should have obliterated any form of organic material, reports National Geographic. Daniel Glavin, an astro-biologist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre in Maryland said, "Previously, we thought the simplest way to make amino acids in an asteroid was at cooler temperatures in the presence of liquid water, this meteorite suggests there's another way involving reactions in gases as a very hot asteroid cools down." So the obvious question to ask is why anyone thinks that the interior of 2008 TC3 was ever heated up to 1100 C? Sure, the *surface* of the asteroid got very hot when it entered earth's atmosphere, but how is that different from Murchison or any other meteorite-generating fall? The interior of 2008 TC3 should never have been above freezing. So something must be missing from the article to explain why they believe Almahata Sitta's interior got so hot. About all I can come up with is that they assumed 2008 TC3 was a rubble pile (almost certainly true given the range of petrology), and that it fragmented into tiny pieces very high in the atmosphere while still moving at cosmic velocity. Instead of heat from ablation only affecting the outer centimeter or so of the surface of a 4-meter monolithic rock, all the individual fragments got the blast treatment. I still don't buy it, though. Small fragments decelerate so rapidly that there wouldn't be time to heat up the interior of even a 1" diameter rock. So the question is, am I missing something? --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids in Sudan meteorites
Thanks, Mark -- yes, that's a key bit of missing info! :-) The question remains, which particular petrology(ies) of Almahata Sitta contained the amino acids? Perhaps it wasn't in a ureilitic sample, but one of the main other breccia constituents, in which case the amino acids wouldn't necessarily have had the ureilite temperature history. Thanks also to Martin, Anne and others who provided links to more scientific papers -- perhaps the answer to my question will be found among them. Happy New Year, All! --Rob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com]on Behalf Of Mark Hammergren Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 1:59 PM To: Mike Hankey; meteoritelist; Robert D.Matson Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids inSudan meteorites The article is missing a description of the genesis of the asteroidal material. Almahata Sitta is a ureilite (among other things), which cooled from very high temperatures (in excess of 1100C) during its formation. -- Mark __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids in Sudan meteorites
Rob, Marc sent me this response after I posted the article: "Yeah, apparently de novo synthesis. Hot, carbon-rich gases in the ureilite formed a small amount of amino acids in the meteorite as it cooled. My bet is that it happened on metal surfaces which acted as a catalyst, and it's not all that surprising. All you need is an appreciable amount of nitrogen in the source gas and you should get a little bit of everything as it cools." I got the impression from the article / marc that the heat happened a long time ago during the meteorites original formation or metamorphose and not during its atmospheric entry. Mike On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Matson, Robert D. wrote: > Hi Mike and List, > > Have been meaning to post a reply about the article link Mike posted: > >> http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/301636 > >> I assume they are talking about Almahata Sitta. I had not heard this >> before. > > Yes, Almahata Sitta is right. As we all know, ET amino acids have been > found in plenty of carbonaceous meteorites, perhaps most famously > within Murchison. So I was curious to find out what was so special > about finding them in carbon-rich 2008 TC3 (Almahata Sitta). A quote > from the article: > > "Amino-acids have been found in carbon-rich meteorites before but this > is the first time the acid substances have been found in a meteorite > as hot as 2,000 Fahrenheit (1,100c). This naturally heated hot rock > should have obliterated any form of organic material, reports National > Geographic. > > Daniel Glavin, an astro-biologist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight > Centre in Maryland said, "Previously, we thought the simplest way to > make amino acids in an asteroid was at cooler temperatures in the > presence of liquid water, this meteorite suggests there's another way > involving reactions in gases as a very hot asteroid cools down." > > So the obvious question to ask is why anyone thinks that the interior > of 2008 TC3 was ever heated up to 1100 C? Sure, the *surface* of the > asteroid got very hot when it entered earth's atmosphere, but how is > that different from Murchison or any other meteorite-generating fall? > The interior of 2008 TC3 should never have been above freezing. > > So something must be missing from the article to explain why they > believe Almahata Sitta's interior got so hot. About all I can come > up with is that they assumed 2008 TC3 was a rubble pile (almost > certainly true given the range of petrology), and that it fragmented > into tiny pieces very high in the atmosphere while still moving at > cosmic velocity. Instead of heat from ablation only affecting the > outer centimeter or so of the surface of a 4-meter monolithic rock, > all the individual fragments got the blast treatment. I still don't > buy it, though. Small fragments decelerate so rapidly that there > wouldn't be time to heat up the interior of even a 1" diameter rock. > > So the question is, am I missing something? --Rob > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids in Sudan meteorites
This raises some very interesting question. If the interior (core) of the smaller stones from smaller meteorite falls such as Murchison, Tagish Lake, Allende, Ash Creek, Mifflin, or any meteorite fall for that matter, are still frozen during entry and upon impact, then would it be a stretch of logic to assume a larger iron mass, such as Canyon Diablo, which was estimated to be 50 meters wide, would also still have a frozen core upon impact? After all it did hold probably most of it's cosmic velocity, meaning it was incandescent for just a few seconds at most, right? Even when you consider iron conducts heat much faster and more efficiently than stone, could such a large mass heat all the way to the core in just a couple few seconds? Regards, Eric On 12/30/2010 1:41 PM, Matson, Robert D. wrote: Hi Mike and List, Have been meaning to post a reply about the article link Mike posted: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/301636 I assume they are talking about Almahata Sitta. I had not heard this before. Yes, Almahata Sitta is right. As we all know, ET amino acids have been found in plenty of carbonaceous meteorites, perhaps most famously within Murchison. So I was curious to find out what was so special about finding them in carbon-rich 2008 TC3 (Almahata Sitta). A quote from the article: "Amino-acids have been found in carbon-rich meteorites before but this is the first time the acid substances have been found in a meteorite as hot as 2,000 Fahrenheit (1,100c). This naturally heated hot rock should have obliterated any form of organic material, reports National Geographic. Daniel Glavin, an astro-biologist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre in Maryland said, "Previously, we thought the simplest way to make amino acids in an asteroid was at cooler temperatures in the presence of liquid water, this meteorite suggests there's another way involving reactions in gases as a very hot asteroid cools down." So the obvious question to ask is why anyone thinks that the interior of 2008 TC3 was ever heated up to 1100 C? Sure, the *surface* of the asteroid got very hot when it entered earth's atmosphere, but how is that different from Murchison or any other meteorite-generating fall? The interior of 2008 TC3 should never have been above freezing. So something must be missing from the article to explain why they believe Almahata Sitta's interior got so hot. About all I can come up with is that they assumed 2008 TC3 was a rubble pile (almost certainly true given the range of petrology), and that it fragmented into tiny pieces very high in the atmosphere while still moving at cosmic velocity. Instead of heat from ablation only affecting the outer centimeter or so of the surface of a 4-meter monolithic rock, all the individual fragments got the blast treatment. I still don't buy it, though. Small fragments decelerate so rapidly that there wouldn't be time to heat up the interior of even a 1" diameter rock. So the question is, am I missing something? --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids in Sudan meteorites
The article is missing a description of the genesis of the asteroidal material. Almahata Sitta is a ureilite (among other things), which cooled from very high temperatures (in excess of 1100C) during its formation. -- Mark --- On Thu, 12/30/10, Matson, Robert D. wrote: > So something must be missing from the article to explain > why they > believe Almahata Sitta's interior got so hot. [snip] > So the question is, am I missing something? --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids in Sudan meteorites
Hi Mike and List, Have been meaning to post a reply about the article link Mike posted: > http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/301636 > I assume they are talking about Almahata Sitta. I had not heard this > before. Yes, Almahata Sitta is right. As we all know, ET amino acids have been found in plenty of carbonaceous meteorites, perhaps most famously within Murchison. So I was curious to find out what was so special about finding them in carbon-rich 2008 TC3 (Almahata Sitta). A quote from the article: "Amino-acids have been found in carbon-rich meteorites before but this is the first time the acid substances have been found in a meteorite as hot as 2,000 Fahrenheit (1,100c). This naturally heated hot rock should have obliterated any form of organic material, reports National Geographic. Daniel Glavin, an astro-biologist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre in Maryland said, "Previously, we thought the simplest way to make amino acids in an asteroid was at cooler temperatures in the presence of liquid water, this meteorite suggests there's another way involving reactions in gases as a very hot asteroid cools down." So the obvious question to ask is why anyone thinks that the interior of 2008 TC3 was ever heated up to 1100 C? Sure, the *surface* of the asteroid got very hot when it entered earth's atmosphere, but how is that different from Murchison or any other meteorite-generating fall? The interior of 2008 TC3 should never have been above freezing. So something must be missing from the article to explain why they believe Almahata Sitta's interior got so hot. About all I can come up with is that they assumed 2008 TC3 was a rubble pile (almost certainly true given the range of petrology), and that it fragmented into tiny pieces very high in the atmosphere while still moving at cosmic velocity. Instead of heat from ablation only affecting the outer centimeter or so of the surface of a 4-meter monolithic rock, all the individual fragments got the blast treatment. I still don't buy it, though. Small fragments decelerate so rapidly that there wouldn't be time to heat up the interior of even a 1" diameter rock. So the question is, am I missing something? --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids in Sudan meteorites
Life Ingredients Found in Superhot Meteorites National Geographic by Andrew Fazekas, Dec. 20, 2010 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/12/101220-asteroid-meteorite-life-space-science/ NASA discovers amino acids on an 'impossible' meteorite Wired.co.uk by Mark Brown, Dec. 22, 2010 http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-12/22/amino-acids-meteorite Meteorite Holds Amino Acid Surprise Discovery News by Ron Cowen, Dec. 21, 2010 http://news.discovery.com/space/meteorite-amino-acids-101221.html The paper is: Glavin, D. P., A. D. Aubrey, M. P. Callanhan, J.P. Dworkin, J. E. Elsila, E. T. Parker, J. L. Bada, P. Jenniskens, and M. H. Shaddad, 2010, JOURNAL TOOLS Extraterrestrial amino acids in the Almahata Sitta meteorite. Article first published online: 13 DEC 2010 DOI: 10./j.1945-5100.2010.01094.x http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1945-5100.2010.01094.x/abstract The paper is in "Special Issue: 2008 TC3 and Almahata Sitta" of Meteoritics & Planetary Science. The table of contents is at: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10./%28ISSN%291945-5100/homepage/custom_copy.htm Happy Holidays, Paul H. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA finds extra-terrestrial amino-acids in Sudan meteorites
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/301636 i assume they are talking about almahata sitta. I had not heard this before. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
