Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
It seem dat way ta' me, too, Adum. Michael On 5/5/10 8:36 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It seem un-American to me. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
I'm enjoying the information you fine collectors are putting on here as I learn something new everyday. I thought I'd toss my two cents in there as an f.y.i. An acquaintance who has a mining claim on BLM is not able to mine the claim now that the entire area in California has been practically sealed off and the local sheriffs and BLM personnel won't allow anyone onto it. There were first concerns of people dumping their old rehabbing projects from homes being rehabbed (Imagine that, someone dumping on BLM land) and the dangers of asbestos. Then, environmental groups, which I generally always support were questioning the safety of the water table and the native salamanders and various native plant species. The bottom line is that the BLM decided with all this going on that the easiest way was to close it down entirely, no more dumping of possible asbestos materials and no danger to the native flora and fauna. My guess is that similar situations will be occurring throughout the West, if they have not already been put into place or are in the works. Have a great day! Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
hi folks, Just a follow up on the hunting on BLM and National and State, County, City Parks, etc. Beware of hunting on military areas also. I'm sure all of us have common sense to not be walking around on Military Property and hunting for rocks, Native American artifacts or meteorites. Remember Area 51 and gunmen on the ridge, etc. Twenty-Nine Palms Marine Corps Base, Edwards Air Force Base, Vandenberg Air Force Base and Chocolate Mountain Gunnery Range in California. Oh, and China Lake Naval Weapons Center also, but I can't tell you about that one since it involves Aliens and things I still don't remember, nor care to remember or relive. ;-) Nellis Air Force Base Bombing and Gunnery Range in Nevada and Test Site and you know where the others are in your states. It would be unwise to go into any type of restricted or military area to hunt for anything without receiving special permission and most preferably have it documented on paper for your own hassle free safety. Just some wise words to protect yourselves while out hunting in the deserts and wild open spaces. All the best, Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
Hi Yinan, Thanks for refreshing my memory on the mining claim that the prospectors filed on the land. I was in high school and remember reading that they were not allowed to take the Old Woman meteorite as she sat in between the boulders on that rocky area because it was not a locatable mineral. That brings back memories and clarifies the reason that it went to the Smithsonian. Thanks again, Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
Apparently the BLM is taking the stance that meteorites fall under the federal antiquities act. A link to the BLM Oregon site. This is allegedly going to be on every BLM site soon. http://www.blm.gov/or/programs/minerals/noncollectables.php __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
How nice! It's about time the US government started returning property to the Indians. I found several major US cities on Indian Land, will those be returned to their rightful owner? What a crock of conqueror-BS. On 5/5/10, David Norton renov8hot...@earthlink.net wrote: Apparently the BLM is taking the stance that meteorites fall under the federal antiquities act. A link to the BLM Oregon site. This is allegedly going to be on every BLM site soon. http://www.blm.gov/or/programs/minerals/noncollectables.php __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites http://www.galactic-stone.com http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
I like this part! Leave no human remains! Or foot prints! Do they mean dead people? Please remember not to leave any modern day artifacts or human remains of your own (haul out your trash from remote areas), take only photographs and leave only footprints on designated paths. - Original Message From: David Norton renov8hot...@earthlink.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 7:40:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands Apparently the BLM is taking the stance that meteorites fall under the federal antiquities act. A link to the BLM Oregon site. This is allegedly going to be on every BLM site soon. http://www.blm.gov/or/programs/minerals/noncollectables.php __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list href=mailto:Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com;Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
Hello David, All, I spent the weekend camping with some friends and somehow managed to get type-A strep. by the day we returned, so I'm just getting back into the swing of things. I have a few other emails to get back to, which I'll do in short order. This is nothing new, and has been the policy of the government/BLM with regards to meteorites for time indeterminate. It's why the Smithsonian was able to claim the Old Woman meteorite, but, to date, they haven't bothered to confiscate (m)any others, to my knowledge. The current wording of that BLM site is a little unsettling, though, because it states, To report illegal collecting or vandalism call... Even if meteorites found on BLM land belong to the Smithsonian, that shouldn't necessarily mean that collecting them is illegal. As has been noted in the past, the vast majority of meteorites found in the US are classified and named, and in most, if not all cases, it is no question as to who found or owns them. If the only thing keeping these meteorites from the Smithsonian is the fact that the Smithsonian isn't asking for the meteorites (assuming that people would hand them over if asked), it shouldn't be illegal to collect meteorites on public land. But there are a few problems with the BLM's interpretation of the 1906 Antiquities Act. See here: http://www.nps.gov/history/local-law/anti1906.htm Are meteorites really objects of antiquity? In a literal sense, I can see what they mean - yes, they're old, but the act seems to be referring to antiques of a particularly man-made nature - namely artifacts and archaeological sites. In fact, the act refers exclusively to archaeological sites and artifacts throughout its entire body of text, so I'm really not sure where rocks and minerals fall under it. They don't seem to. As such, I believe that the justification of this law with regards to meteorites could well be successfully challenged in court -- but I doubt that it will come to that...but I suppose we'll find out when the BLM starts prosecuting people for finding new meteoritesif it ever happens. Of course, it should still be noted that any meteorites found on BLM land, if they don't fall under the 1906 Antiquities Act, would fall under the guidelines that the BLM has set for rocks and minerals, thus restricting the mass that can be collected in any given year to a set amount (250 lbs if I'm not mistaken) -- and prohibiting the commercial sale of any materials recovered. Regards, Jason On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:05 PM, James Balister balisterja...@att.net wrote: I like this part! Leave no human remains! Or foot prints! Do they mean dead people? Please remember not to leave any modern day artifacts or human remains of your own (haul out your trash from remote areas), take only photographs and leave only footprints on designated paths. - Original Message From: David Norton renov8hot...@earthlink.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 7:40:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands Apparently the BLM is taking the stance that meteorites fall under the federal antiquities act. A link to the BLM Oregon site. This is allegedly going to be on every BLM site soon. http://www.blm.gov/or/programs/minerals/noncollectables.php __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list href=mailto:Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com;Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
This is a new position. The previous / current (AZ BLM website) allowed for non commercial collecting of 25 lbs per day and a 250 LB annual maximum. This new posture very clearly states that National Parks and Public lands generally prohibit removal of rocks from them followed by Report illegal collecting or vandalism. National Parks have always been off limits, but not public lands in general. The website clearly characterizes all collecting on public lands as illegal. -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jason Utas Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:55 PM To: Meteorite-list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands Hello David, All, I spent the weekend camping with some friends and somehow managed to get type-A strep. by the day we returned, so I'm just getting back into the swing of things. I have a few other emails to get back to, which I'll do in short order. This is nothing new, and has been the policy of the government/BLM with regards to meteorites for time indeterminate. It's why the Smithsonian was able to claim the Old Woman meteorite, but, to date, they haven't bothered to confiscate (m)any others, to my knowledge. The current wording of that BLM site is a little unsettling, though, because it states, To report illegal collecting or vandalism call... Even if meteorites found on BLM land belong to the Smithsonian, that shouldn't necessarily mean that collecting them is illegal. As has been noted in the past, the vast majority of meteorites found in the US are classified and named, and in most, if not all cases, it is no question as to who found or owns them. If the only thing keeping these meteorites from the Smithsonian is the fact that the Smithsonian isn't asking for the meteorites (assuming that people would hand them over if asked), it shouldn't be illegal to collect meteorites on public land. But there are a few problems with the BLM's interpretation of the 1906 Antiquities Act. See here: http://www.nps.gov/history/local-law/anti1906.htm Are meteorites really objects of antiquity? In a literal sense, I can see what they mean - yes, they're old, but the act seems to be referring to antiques of a particularly man-made nature - namely artifacts and archaeological sites. In fact, the act refers exclusively to archaeological sites and artifacts throughout its entire body of text, so I'm really not sure where rocks and minerals fall under it. They don't seem to. As such, I believe that the justification of this law with regards to meteorites could well be successfully challenged in court -- but I doubt that it will come to that...but I suppose we'll find out when the BLM starts prosecuting people for finding new meteoritesif it ever happens. Of course, it should still be noted that any meteorites found on BLM land, if they don't fall under the 1906 Antiquities Act, would fall under the guidelines that the BLM has set for rocks and minerals, thus restricting the mass that can be collected in any given year to a set amount (250 lbs if I'm not mistaken) -- and prohibiting the commercial sale of any materials recovered. Regards, Jason On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:05 PM, James Balister balisterja...@att.net wrote: I like this part! Leave no human remains! Or foot prints! Do they mean dead people? Please remember not to leave any modern day artifacts or human remains of your own (haul out your trash from remote areas), take only photographs and leave only footprints on designated paths. - Original Message From: David Norton renov8hot...@earthlink.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 7:40:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands Apparently the BLM is taking the stance that meteorites fall under the federal antiquities act. A link to the BLM Oregon site. This is allegedly going to be on every BLM site soon. http://www.blm.gov/or/programs/minerals/noncollectables.php __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list href=mailto:Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com;meteorite-l...@meteoritece ntral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
The previous / current (AZ BLM website) allowed for non commercial collecting of 25 lbs per day and a 250 LB annual maximum. Well, the problem is that you have a statement like this: National parks and public lands generally prohibit removal of rocks from them -- and it's just not true. Well, people aren't allowed to rockhound in national parks, I'll grant them that, but they have other pages that state that rockhounding is clearly allowed on BLM land: http://www.blm.gov/or/programs/minerals/rockhounding.php So...the 25 lb per day/250 lb per year regulations are probably still in effect, since that page refers to older regulations in its references. This new posture very clearly states that National Parks and Public lands generally prohibit removal of rocks from them followed by Report illegal collecting or vandalism. Right, but take a look at what I said about those statements in my last message. It's debatable as to whether or not the 1906 antiquities act *could* apply to meteorites, since every reference it contains pertains to archaeological artifacts and sites. If you read the text of it, that much is clear. And note that every meteorite found on public land has been the property of the Smithsonian, again, since...well, since at least 1976 (Old Woman). If you're saying this policy is new, how did the Smithsonian manage to claim the Old Woman meteorite? What different law were they evoking, and if it was a different one (i.e. 'things have changed'), does it really matter, because even if there has been some sort of a policy change, if the end result is that the Smithsonian can claim finds...I see no difference. If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that their approach to regulating the collecting of meteorites from public lands has changed in that they are now stating that it is illegal, whereas before the meteorites found simply belonged to the Smithsonian...and somehow keeping and selling them for a commercial gain was considered legal...well, again -- I'll consider this a problem when I hear about someone getting arrested for collecting meteorites on public land. It's one thing to say something on a website, and it's another matter to make it active policy. National Parks have always been off limits, but not public lands in general. The website clearly characterizes all collecting on public lands as illegal. Again, take a look at the page for which I just included a link. Rock collecting in general is clearly allowed. Jason -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jason Utas Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:55 PM To: Meteorite-list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands Hello David, All, I spent the weekend camping with some friends and somehow managed to get type-A strep. by the day we returned, so I'm just getting back into the swing of things. I have a few other emails to get back to, which I'll do in short order. This is nothing new, and has been the policy of the government/BLM with regards to meteorites for time indeterminate. It's why the Smithsonian was able to claim the Old Woman meteorite, but, to date, they haven't bothered to confiscate (m)any others, to my knowledge. The current wording of that BLM site is a little unsettling, though, because it states, To report illegal collecting or vandalism call... Even if meteorites found on BLM land belong to the Smithsonian, that shouldn't necessarily mean that collecting them is illegal. As has been noted in the past, the vast majority of meteorites found in the US are classified and named, and in most, if not all cases, it is no question as to who found or owns them. If the only thing keeping these meteorites from the Smithsonian is the fact that the Smithsonian isn't asking for the meteorites (assuming that people would hand them over if asked), it shouldn't be illegal to collect meteorites on public land. But there are a few problems with the BLM's interpretation of the 1906 Antiquities Act. See here: http://www.nps.gov/history/local-law/anti1906.htm Are meteorites really objects of antiquity? In a literal sense, I can see what they mean - yes, they're old, but the act seems to be referring to antiques of a particularly man-made nature - namely artifacts and archaeological sites. In fact, the act refers exclusively to archaeological sites and artifacts throughout its entire body of text, so I'm really not sure where rocks and minerals fall under it. They don't seem to. As such, I believe that the justification of this law with regards to meteorites could well be successfully challenged in court -- but I doubt that it will come to that...but I suppose we'll find out when the BLM starts prosecuting people for finding new meteoritesif it ever happens. Of course, it should still be noted that any meteorites found on BLM land
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
Respectfully (and not to be taken as legal advice): I don't see how this is really new either, although different states occasionally have different readings of the various rules/antiquity laws. Some BLM state websites choose to make people more aware of certain laws than others. The Old Woman meteorite case occured in 1975, on California BLM, and referred to the Antiquities Act : Since the meteorite was on public land administered by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), the prospectors filed a mining claim on the site. To their disappointment they learned that meteorites were not a locatable mineral as defined by the mining law. Instead, under the provisions of the Antiquities Act, meteorites found on public land were considered objects of scientific interest and therefore should go to the Smithsonian Institution. Regarding the 25 lbs per day or 250 lbs : that has always been the BLM rule regarding petrified wood in all states: BLM regulations allow the collection of 25 pounds per day of petrified wood plus one piece, provided that the total removed by one person does not exceed 250 pounds in one callendar year. Pooling of quotas to obtain pieces larger than 250 pounds is not allowed. (43CFR3622.4) So I guess Arizona for a while decided to follow the petrified wood rules regarding meteorities rather than the Antiquities rules. As far as I can tell, there are no specific rules regarding meteorities: http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200343 http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/43cfrv2_03.html It depends on each state's BLM's interpretation of the rules and what they decide to update their website with. - YvW On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:25 PM, David Norton renov8hot...@earthlink.net wrote: This is a new position. The previous / current (AZ BLM website) allowed for non commercial collecting of 25 lbs per day and a 250 LB annual maximum. This new posture very clearly states that National Parks and Public lands generally prohibit removal of rocks from them followed by Report illegal collecting or vandalism. National Parks have always been off limits, but not public lands in general. The website clearly characterizes all collecting on public lands as illegal. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands
The Smithsonian doesn't own all meteorites found on BLM land. The Antiquities law doesn't cover meteorites. The only reason the Old Woman was taken by the Smithsonian is because it exceeded the annual weight limit of 250 pounds for any mineral. The finders should have kept it secret, hacked off 25 pound pieces each for 8 days in a year to reach their combined 500 pound limit and then returned in subsequent years. The twisting of the old 1906 law to cover meteorites is grasping and would never stand up in federal court. Several politicians are avid rock hounds and would not stand for it. I am glad to live in Nevada instead of a state like Washington where I used to live who seem to have no problem violating personal rights by making such statements on their uniformed website. It seem un-American to me. Best Regards, Adam - Original Message From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com To: David Norton renov8hot...@earthlink.net; Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 6:47:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands The previous / current (AZ BLM website) allowed for non commercial collecting of 25 lbs per day and a 250 LB annual maximum. Well, the problem is that you have a statement like this: National parks and public lands generally prohibit removal of rocks from them -- and it's just not true. Well, people aren't allowed to rockhound in national parks, I'll grant them that, but they have other pages that state that rockhounding is clearly allowed on BLM land: http://www.blm.gov/or/programs/minerals/rockhounding.php So...the 25 lb per day/250 lb per year regulations are probably still in effect, since that page refers to older regulations in its references. This new posture very clearly states that National Parks and Public lands generally prohibit removal of rocks from them followed by Report illegal collecting or vandalism. Right, but take a look at what I said about those statements in my last message. It's debatable as to whether or not the 1906 antiquities act *could* apply to meteorites, since every reference it contains pertains to archaeological artifacts and sites. If you read the text of it, that much is clear. And note that every meteorite found on public land has been the property of the Smithsonian, again, since...well, since at least 1976 (Old Woman). If you're saying this policy is new, how did the Smithsonian manage to claim the Old Woman meteorite? What different law were they evoking, and if it was a different one (i.e. 'things have changed'), does it really matter, because even if there has been some sort of a policy change, if the end result is that the Smithsonian can claim finds...I see no difference. If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that their approach to regulating the collecting of meteorites from public lands has changed in that they are now stating that it is illegal, whereas before the meteorites found simply belonged to the Smithsonian...and somehow keeping and selling them for a commercial gain was considered legal...well, again -- I'll consider this a problem when I hear about someone getting arrested for collecting meteorites on public land. It's one thing to say something on a website, and it's another matter to make it active policy. National Parks have always been off limits, but not public lands in general. The website clearly characterizes all collecting on public lands as illegal. Again, take a look at the page for which I just included a link. Rock collecting in general is clearly allowed. Jason -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jason Utas Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:55 PM To: Meteorite-list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New position on hunting BLM lands Hello David, All, I spent the weekend camping with some friends and somehow managed to get type-A strep. by the day we returned, so I'm just getting back into the swing of things. I have a few other emails to get back to, which I'll do in short order. This is nothing new, and has been the policy of the government/BLM with regards to meteorites for time indeterminate. It's why the Smithsonian was able to claim the Old Woman meteorite, but, to date, they haven't bothered to confiscate (m)any others, to my knowledge. The current wording of that BLM site is a little unsettling, though, because it states, To report illegal collecting or vandalism call... Even if meteorites found on BLM land belong to the Smithsonian, that shouldn't necessarily mean that collecting them is illegal. As has been noted in the past, the vast majority of meteorites found in the US are classified and named, and in most, if not all cases, it is no question as to who found or owns them. If the only thing keeping these meteorites from the Smithsonian is the fact that the Smithsonian
