[meteorite-list] Stop
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Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! and go test it yourself!
If you are going to bury an iron then be sure to bury it in two sealed ziplock plastic bags, that way it won't harm it at all. I did this when I was testing a new magnetometer system, I designed earlier in the year, the Iron I buried is still rust free. Mark F CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email i...@ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Hi Chris, List I for one, certainly appreciate your opinions. I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and abilities. I'm glad you're willing to share the things you do with the List. I would miss it if you didn't. If I haven't thanked you before for the things you share, I will now. Thank you. And I mean that sincerely. List, hopefully we have reviewed at least my original post about the use of the rods all we need to. I have had someone contact me who did not elaborate but their wish was for me to stop please. I presume they are wanting fewer emails. I intend to respect that wish at least on this topic. I don't know exactly where the thread is off to now. Because I don't think some of what I see now being brought up actually pertains to my first post exactly. I believe I will have to relinquish responsibility for the thread at this juncture. I will apologize now for any headaches the number of emails to this point has caused anyone. However I must admit, I have enjoyed the discussion immensely. Thanks all, Mike in CO On Oct 14, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over alarge iron)
Hi Mike, No need top apologise, I don't think discussing ways of finding meteorites is off topic (on a meteorite forum), even if that means discussing some of the more controversial methods. Even though I don't personally think it works (yes I have tried it) I certainly think it was still well worth a discuss. I guess we go back to bickering and advertising giveaways now.. M. -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Murray Sent: 14 October 2010 21:14 To: Chris Peterson Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over alarge iron) Hi Chris, List I for one, certainly appreciate your opinions. I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and abilities. I'm glad you're willing to share the things you do with the List. I would miss it if you didn't. If I haven't thanked you before for the things you share, I will now. Thank you. And I mean that sincerely. List, hopefully we have reviewed at least my original post about the use of the rods all we need to. I have had someone contact me who did not elaborate but their wish was for me to stop please. I presume they are wanting fewer emails. I intend to respect that wish at least on this topic. I don't know exactly where the thread is off to now. Because I don't think some of what I see now being brought up actually pertains to my first post exactly. I believe I will have to relinquish responsibility for the thread at this juncture. I will apologize now for any headaches the number of emails to this point has caused anyone. However I must admit, I have enjoyed the discussion immensely. Thanks all, Mike in CO On Oct 14, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter - for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Here we go again with bitching about OT everything is always off topic when I comment on it. The topic was diving rods to find meteorites ...correct??? So my input on an experience with them is considered off topic??? How about this I drop this bitch fest lame list out of my email and then I wont have to read threads full of people complaining about OT all the time. Some folks on here should really go out more and live a little, then they wouldn't be so grumpy. Since this email is technically OFF TOPIC, I'll end it now. It's been nice talking to SOME of you. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO From: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:43:27 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) OK, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take Michael Murray up on his original proposition that started this crazy thread. I'm going to make some divining rods like Warren's dad made. Then I'll bury a 10 kilo Odessa meteorite a foot underground. I will then see if it shorts out the Earth's magnetic field enough to affect the electro-chemical reactions in my brain producing a muscular twitching resulting in the crossing of the magical rods. I will have 3 other people try it that don't know where the meteorite is buried for a sort of triple blind experiment. I will disguise the hole so they can't see it. I'll report back the results. This groundbreaking experiment will settle this silly argument once and for all. (Notice how I brought the thread back to the subject of meteorites!) Phil Whitmer --- Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Warren, Are you aware that your name (sans souci) means no worries or carefree, cheerful and unbothered by the trivia of life, one who lives in a buoyant and untroubled manner? Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Warren Sansoucie warren3...@hotmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Here we go again with bitching about OT everything is always off topic when I comment on it. The topic was diving rods to find meteorites ...correct??? So my input on an experience with them is considered off topic??? How about this I drop this bitch fest lame list out of my email and then I wont have to read threads full of people complaining about OT all the time. Some folks on here should really go out more and live a little, then they wouldn't be so grumpy. Since this email is technically OFF TOPIC, I'll end it now. It's been nice talking to SOME of you. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO From: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:43:27 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) OK, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take Michael Murray up on his original proposition that started this crazy thread. I'm going to make some divining rods like Warren's dad made. Then I'll bury a 10 kilo Odessa meteorite a foot underground. I will then see if it shorts out the Earth's magnetic field enough to affect the electro-chemical reactions in my brain producing a muscular twitching resulting in the crossing of the magical rods. I will have 3 other people try it that don't know where the meteorite is buried for a sort of triple blind experiment. I will disguise the hole so they can't see it. I'll report back the results. This groundbreaking experiment will settle this silly argument once and for all. (Notice how I brought the thread back to the subject of meteorites!) Phil Whitmer --- Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:06:53 -0500, you wrote: Are you aware that your name (sans souci) means no worries or carefree, cheerful and unbothered by the trivia of life, one who lives in a buoyant and untroubled manner? So-- his name is essentially Warren Peace? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over alarge iron)
OUCH! mlan...@execpc.com - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over alarge iron) So-- his name is essentially Warren Peace? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric On 10/14/2010 12:04 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: No, I'm sure he believed it. People read horoscopes all the time, as well. That doesn't mean they work. People fool themselves into believing all sorts of crazy stuff. The fact that our brain finds patterns where none exist is the source of superstition! Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Years ago, an employee of the local utility company told me his foreman always kept a pair of dowsing rods in his tool truck. He said he didn't know how or why they worked, and didn't care, they were just practical to use. At the time I thought he was b'sing me. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO From: c...@alumni.caltech.edu To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:44:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over alarge iron)
Dear Chris... And how do you explain scientifically proven... that you are living, breathing... and interacting on this forum ? Come on... read the late article on Newton by New York Times. I am sure alchemy is on your list with astrology and so on. Try to stay humble, especially if you are on an observatory ! There are too many charlatans unfortunately... that's also why someone like Newton was doing his alchemical researches in a kind of secrecy, to avoid comments like yours. Darren recently put a link to one of my previous post on the list, I invite you to read it again. Btw, I am a certified Engineer in Agronomy, with 5 years studies on chemicals, biology etc... and many, many years of practicing. It just happened... that my scholarly certitudes... were brutally confronted with the empiric knowledge in so called underdeveloped countries when I was in my late 20s, in Africa, Asia, South America... You would be surprised to ear, that the major and world known Agronomical Research Center in France (INRA) called a healer to fix telluric forces which made their horses get nuts on their way to their pasture, about 20 years ago. It did work, to the pleasure of the researching team and the horses... :) But this is just old grandma recipes... no ? BTW, the magical... lets say, unknown to the scientists, power of the chicken, actually hen soup has been proven. Doesn't that make you/us humble, we scientists... ??? There is a main stream science... and another one... And I definitely like the recent quote from Einstein, that I discovered with infinite pleasure... Enjoy ! Cheers ! Michael B. -- From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:44 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over alarge iron) Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Ouija boards work the same way. But hey... if your dad can really do this, I don't know why he isn't out claiming Randi's prize money. It should be easy pickings. My own conclusion is that the method works great for finding water pipes when you already know where they are. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Warren Sansoucie warren3...@hotmail.com To: c...@alumni.caltech.edu; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:53 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
OK, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take Michael Murray up on his original proposition that started this crazy thread. I'm going to make some divining rods like Warren's dad made. Then I'll bury a 10 kilo Odessa meteorite a foot underground. I will then see if it shorts out the Earth's magnetic field enough to affect the electro-chemical reactions in my brain producing a muscular twitching resulting in the crossing of the magical rods. I will have 3 other people try it that don't know where the meteorite is buried for a sort of triple blind experiment. I will disguise the hole so they can't see it. I'll report back the results. This groundbreaking experiment will settle this silly argument once and for all. (Notice how I brought the thread back to the subject of meteorites!) Phil Whitmer --- Hi Chris list, While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all our conclusion was that you can call it bunk, but if you were thirsty, you could find water pipes easily. I have not found much REAL data on the subject. My own theories about why the wire worked wouldn't jive with sticks or plastics While I didn't believe in it scientifically I can honestly say, if I were dying of thirst and had to find water underground in a pipe(lol) you'd find me with some coat hangers and a glass. Warren Sansoucie IMCA #3174 St. Louis MO __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Now see Chris, Your own issue is your reliance on the accepted for it's sake. ;) Instead of reading the words and taking them at face value, you ignore the meaning and content of the quotes, and focus on and question the origin. (dubious origin?) Typical political BS... Deflection of meaning and attention by discrediting the source. That's elementary political strategy 101, nothing more than a weak attempt to shift the focus of the debate. What's more foolish? My quoting quotes of great inventors, or your ignoring of the meaning by attacking the source of the quote? Hmmm. Frankly it doesn't matter where the quote comes from, nor does it matter who said it. What matters is the meaning behind the words. Yet you totally ignore that to try weakly at proving your own point by deflecting attention. Shame on you... Instead of understanding, you ignore it and call me a fool... ;) lol If the institutionally correct method means we rely only on the empirically evidenced and accepted, without looking at everything with an open mind, maybe we should all give up now and burn all books and shut down the internet. Dark ages anyone...? Your philosophy (on this) is the fallacy of appeal to authority you complained about last night. You are guilty of your own accusation of dependence on that accepted authority, which is the same thing. You're forgetting the most basic tenet of science, even though you try to lean on it by saying It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted but what you fail to realize is just because it's NOT accepted (yet) doesn't mean it's not possible. Of course doubt and skepticism is part of it, but people should not ignore the forest for the trees. It's not cliche because it's silly, it's cliche because it's true. Free the mind of the individual and scientific advancement is natural. People tend to stop trying if they listen to people who tell them it's unaccepted. If people didn't try, we'd have nothing. Regards, Eric P.S. I'm not referring to divining or dowsing. I'm referring to the philosophy of science, learning and knowledge in general. On 10/14/2010 12:44 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: Actually, new ideas that are RIGHT have generally been accepted fairly quickly. It is a myth of the pseudoscientist that so many great minds have been considered wrong or crazy, and that the establishment has usually been wrong. It is entirely appropriate that new ideas be viewed with some skepticism before they are accepted, however. In fact, it is science that tells us very clearly that divining rods do not work. This is something that has been put to the test, and failed that test. Nobody can actually demonstrate that they work any better than random chance. Only a fool would ignore that reality in favor of quotes (some of dubious origin). Divining rods, homeopathy, astrology... all these things are firmly in the same category. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Hi All, Nuts! I can't believe all this talk about divining rods lately. So, I made myself a pair from wire clothes hanger, following Warren's instructions and went out to my side yard. My front and back yard are compeltely cemented over. I made it out about 3 feet and the rods crossed over. WTH!! I doubled back and they crossed over at the same spot! I walked over the entire yard and came back at the same spot. Yep, they crossed over! I can't wait till my sons come home so they repeat this experiment. Carl2 Warren wrote: While I agree with you , I must do so with a small grain of salt. I nearly quoted your previous email statement to my father regarding divining rods . He smiled at me, went inside and brought out 2 coat hangers. He cut them and produced two straightened pieces of wire. He then bent them both the same way, nearly at a 90 degree angle with one end longer than the other. He then held the short ends, one in each and hand, loosely out in front of him. He walked across the lawn over a buried water pipe and the two wires went from pointing forward to crossing each other. They crossed exactly when he walked over the pipe and then uncrossed when he was past it. I didn't believe any of it, so he handed them to me. Like a fool ( I felt like one, holding two pieces of wire walking around), I took them and repeated what he had done. Damned if they didn't cross exactly the same way. I could back up slowly and they would move slowly at the same time, crossing when over the pipe. I took this situation to school. A professor listened and proposed we try some tests. All in all __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:14:05 -0700, you wrote: So, I made myself a pair from wire clothes hanger, following Warren's instructions and went out to my side yard. My front and back yard are compeltely cemented over. I made it out about 3 feet and the rods crossed over. WTH!! I doubled back and they crossed over at the same spot! I walked over the entire yard and came back at the same spot. Yep, they crossed over! I can't wait till my sons come home so they repeat this experiment. To have a truly objective test, I'd propose the construction of some sort of rig that holds rods (which are precisely straight and bent to exactly 90 degrees) exactactly perpendicular to the surface, then moved at a slow, steady, speed in a precisely level track. Some sort of powered, rolling device with good shock absorbers, or something machine-guided across level, tight wires. In other words, a setup that precludes any twitches, movements out of level, changes in accelration, or any other subconcious factors that would cause a low-friction system to move and can't be eliminated by a human holding it. A real experiment attempts to eliminate all variables execpt for the one variable being tested for-- in this case, testing for movement caused by buried objects and NOT by movement on the part of the person (or machine) holding the rods. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Einstein was talking about the missing variable in all of our equations, even ones that he devised and later confounded him. It is the bread of our queries. Imagine not questioning our assupmtions. I'm not even commenting on dousing here. This is worthy of a new topic, but here I am commenting within this thread. How many of us here are willing to acknowledge that everything we know now isn't finite? If we reject concepts as unquestionable, the world is still flat, stones don't fall from the sky, and we know everything already. Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron) Chris, I fully support the eviction of superstition from the human mind. BUT... Non believers and naysayers of radical ideas are typically, historically, and statistically, often wrong! People said the Wright brothers couldn't fly. But they did. People said you would die if you went faster than a few tens of MPH. They were wrong. People disbelieved DaVinci's inventions. But modern science proved many to be possible. People said it wasn't possible to fly to the Moon. Be we did. People slammed Tesla, and persecuted him and his free wireless electricity. Yet today we know induction charging and energy transmission over distance is real. I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford Don't take counsel of your fears or naysayers. - General Colin Powell ...The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes Nikola Tesla Thomas Jefferson, with such a great mind on politics and human advancement still had problems and could be considered a naysayer when he said. I would more easily believe that a Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven. - Thomas Jefferson Closedmindedness is the enemy of progress. Regards, Eric On 10/14/2010 12:04 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: No, I'm sure he believed it. People read horoscopes all the time, as well. That doesn't mean they work. People fool themselves into believing all sorts of crazy stuff. The fact that our brain finds patterns where none exist is the source of superstition! Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Try divining rods over a large iron Years ago, an employee of the local utility company told me his foreman always kept a pair of dowsing rods in his tool truck. He said he didn't know how or why they worked, and didn't care, they were just practical to use. At the time I thought he was b'sing me. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! (Was: Try divining rods over a large iron)
Hi Darren, I'd like to say first off that I don't subscribe to dowsing. I do like your logic. But, what IF one of the variables you eliminate has a direct negative effect on the conclusion? Also, I like your testing method. Though maybe a plastic rail might work better than metal wire, and there is some flex over a span of distance in the wire which could cause unwanted movement. Also, aren't wires metal? Wouldn't that variable effect the results of finding metal with the dowsing rods? I know this is kind of silly, but, if we're to find an iron meteorite with dowsing rods, I would think the entire experiment area needs to be metal-sterile. Or am I wrong? Eric On 10/14/2010 3:32 PM, Darren Garrison wrote: On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:14:05 -0700, you wrote: So, I made myself a pair from wire clothes hanger, following Warren's instructions and went out to my side yard. My front and back yard are compeltely cemented over. I made it out about 3 feet and the rods crossed over. WTH!! I doubled back and they crossed over at the same spot! I walked over the entire yard and came back at the same spot. Yep, they crossed over! I can't wait till my sons come home so they repeat this experiment. To have a truly objective test, I'd propose the construction of some sort of rig that holds rods (which are precisely straight and bent to exactly 90 degrees) exactactly perpendicular to the surface, then moved at a slow, steady, speed in a precisely level track. Some sort of powered, rolling device with good shock absorbers, or something machine-guided across level, tight wires. In other words, a setup that precludes any twitches, movements out of level, changes in accelration, or any other subconcious factors that would cause a low-friction system to move and can't be eliminated by a human holding it. A real experiment attempts to eliminate all variables execpt for the one variable being tested for-- in this case, testing for movement caused by buried objects and NOT by movement on the part of the person (or machine) holding the rods. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! and go test it yourself!
Kudos for bringing this back to meteorites, Phil - I wanted to do so by pointing out that Mike Murray's original challenge does represent a scientific question, with an implicit hypothesis. He later made it explicit. The question: do dowsing rods act differently near a meteorite than they do near man-made metal objects? He asked the question without (at least initially) revealing why - therefore setting up a blind test. Note that it doesn't have to work to propose the question or test it in scientific fashion. The hypothesis: meteorites will affect dowsing rods differently than anthropogenic metal will. In statistical jargon (I'm one of those reviewers that reject papers for improperly applied stats),we would present it thus: The null hypothesis is that dowsing rods perform the same way in the presence either meteorites or anthropogenic metal. The alternative hypothesis is that the rods will behave differently. Kudos for Phil for his proposal - he gets it about right. He presents the chain of logic that provides a mechanistic explanation. [please do keep in mind that science does not and cannot purport to examine the supernatural -it may find that seemingly supernatural events are natural in cause, but the true supernatural is not science] Disturbances in the Earth's electromagnetic field that can be (if only subconsciously) detected by a person, who translates this perception through the ideomotor effect into a visible response. This is a hypothetical mechanistic explanation. (this may be wrong - there may be a supernatural or alternate natural explanation-it may be complete hokum, but it doesn't have to work to conduct the test) If he buries the meteorite and tests someone else who has no knowledge of its location, this is a 'blind' test. If his neighbor buries it somewhere, but Phil doesn't know where, and he then has a third person seek it, this is a 'double-blind' test. In the latter case, neither the subject nor the experimentor knows the answer. As proposed, this test can be criticized, of course. First is the problem of sample size, one of the most common issues with experiments. If four people seek the meteorite and all four find it, it can be shown that it is very unlikely to be merely coincidence (but *not* impossible). A sample size of twenty people, wherein at least 80% find the meteorite, would be very convincing. Second, it is suggested by some dowsers that this is a special skill. Consequently, using randomly selected people would bias the result against a positive finding. So, only people who claim they can use dowsing tools to locate objects should be tested. As the group most likely to succeed, any failure to attain a high rate of success is a demonstration that they can't (at least) find meteorites. Finally, the meteorite should be buried in an undetectable way - such as in a plowed field where all the dirt is already disturbed. If you are really good at removing and replacing divots, maybe a nice, even lawn would be a good test platform. Conceivably, dowsing works because the person is highly attuned to small environmental cues - slight dips in the surface over buried pipes, changes in vegetation, whatever. They then, possibly without even understanding what they are doing, 'read' the site and deduce where a good spot is located. The rods merely serve to focus their attention and display the ideomotor effect as driven by dowser's reading of environmental cues. So, we want to remove or obfuscate any cues of this nature (from burying the test sample). Technically, the entire chain from rods to person, etc. should be tested separately, but that may be implausible. I don't agree with Darren's suggestion of a mechanical dowser - I'll go (an actually very short way) out a limb and predict that, if you do this, the motion of the rods will be completely random - a hard-to-predict response to vibrations from the motion of the robot. The dowsing effect is allegedly a human 'skill', 'sense', whatever, so I don't think removing that variable actually tests the question. Here is an additional, even easier, test. Have dowsers walk over your yard, telling them that there is something out there, please find it. But don't actually bury anything. See if they all indicate the same spot, or random spots. If there is a consistent pattern, maybe something is going on. In any case, dig up all the spots and see if you find anything - maybe they'll locate that hidden pirate treasure But, you know what? None of this tests Mr. Murray's original question. Try this: get a big box. Place, at random, different metal objects; meteorites, pipes, tea kettles - whatever. Each time you change the object (or better, someone changes the object behind your back), you then challenge a dowser to see if they get anything when passing over the box. They should get nothing when the box is empty, and either nothing or something as you change metals. If they correctly determine whether there is anything in the
[meteorite-list] Stop Naysaying! and go test it yourself!
Dr. Vann: Those are some excellent suggestions for conducting an experiment. I don't know any dowsers, so I would have to use regular people. My kids are looking forward to doing this. I was thinking of carefully replacing the turf and using a leaf covered area. You read my mind (!), I was going to put the Odessa in a plastic bag. I didn't think the bag would effect any electromagnetic charge disturbance or whatever it is the magnetite or the unknown brain molecules would be detecting and translating into a motor response causing the rods to cross. The soil around here is pretty damp this time of year, I would hesitate to bury any iron meteorite for very long. I wouldn't have to go far to find drier sandy soil though. I have access to Campos and Muonionalustas, (both known rusters), Gibeons, Canyon Diablos, a mostly iron Seymchan and a few other large irons. Probably the Gibeon would be best. I like your idea of using anthropogenic metals as an independent variable. Not that I believe in dowsing, this will be a fun experiment and video for the kids. I do however believe there are real phenomena that no one can explain, e.g. hypnotism and it's all to easy to naysay with a closed mind. Thanks for the ideas. Phil Whitmer -- Kudos for bringing this back to meteorites, Phil - I wanted to do so by pointing out that Mike Murray's original challenge does represent a scientific question, with an implicit hypothesis. He later made it explicit. The question: do dowsing rods act differently near a meteorite than they do near man-made metal objects? He asked the question without (at least initially) revealing why - therefore setting up a blind test. Note that it doesn't have to work to propose the question or test it in scientific fashion. The hypothesis: meteorites will affect dowsing rods differently than anthropogenic metal will. In statistical jargon (I'm one of those reviewers that reject papers for improperly applied stats),we would present it thus: The null hypothesis is that dowsing rods perform the same way in the presence either meteorites or anthropogenic metal. The alternative hypothesis is that the rods will behave differently. Kudos for Phil for his proposal - he gets it about right. He presents the chain of logic that provides a mechanistic explanation. [please do keep in mind that science does not and cannot purport to examine the supernatural -it may find that seemingly supernatural events are natural in cause, but the true supernatural is not science] Disturbances in the Earth's electromagnetic field that can be (if only subconsciously) detected by a person, who translates this perception through the ideomotor effect into a visible response. This is a hypothetical mechanistic explanation. (this may be wrong - there may be a supernatural or alternate natural explanation-it may be complete hokum, but it doesn't have to work to conduct the test) If he buries the meteorite and tests someone else who has no knowledge of its location, this is a 'blind' test. If his neighbor buries it somewhere, but Phil doesn't know where, and he then has a third person seek it, this is a 'double-blind' test. In the latter case, neither the subject nor the experimentor knows the answer. As proposed, this test can be criticized, of course. First is the problem of sample size, one of the most common issues with experiments. If four people seek the meteorite and all four find it, it can be shown that it is very unlikely to be merely coincidence (but *not* impossible). A sample size of twenty people, wherein at least 80% find the meteorite, would be very convincing. Second, it is suggested by some dowsers that this is a special skill. Consequently, using randomly selected people would bias the result against a positive finding. So, only people who claim they can use dowsing tools to locate objects should be tested. As the group most likely to succeed, any failure to attain a high rate of success is a demonstration that they can't (at least) find meteorites. Finally, the meteorite should be buried in an undetectable way - such as in a plowed field where all the dirt is already disturbed. If you are really good at removing and replacing divots, maybe a nice, even lawn would be a good test platform. Conceivably, dowsing works because the person is highly attuned to small environmental cues - slight dips in the surface over buried pipes, changes in vegetation, whatever. They then, possibly without even understanding what they are doing, 'read' the site and deduce where a good spot is located. The rods merely serve to focus their attention and display the ideomotor effect as driven by dowser's reading of environmental cues. So, we want to remove or obfuscate any cues of this nature (from burying the test sample). Technically, the entire chain from rods to person, etc. should be tested separately, but that may be implausible. I don't
[meteorite-list] STOP, please just stop
Steve, ACTUALLY it did have to do with an ad. You clearly stated that the material would be on your website and pieces available. Please take a break, read your own emails, and don't assume that we are all idiots. I think these people who jump all over you are overreacting, but you poke them in the eye with a sharp stick daily, so this has finally come to a head. A crappy old H chondrite from Morocco is hardly newsworthy. I have thousands of them in storage. Give it a break already. Michael Farmer --- steve arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello to all the list.What tom phillips said,about the ugly chondrite was correct.All I was trying to do was to start a forum (discussion) about this very interesting meteorite soon to be classified.W ell now you know the truth.It had nothing to do about an add.It had nothing about givaways.It had nothing to do about sales.It had nothing to but about the TRUTH.A discussion on meteorites.Well with more vacations,more family time,and with work starting to go into the busy season,I have decided to put all posts to the list on hold for the rest of the year.I want to give all the naysayers time to relax,reflect and just plain get a life.I have had it with all this crap for the last 3 years. Steve R.Arnold,chicago,Ill,Usa!! Collecting Meteorites since 06/19/1999!! chicagometeorites.net.Specializing in Gao Meteorites! Ebay I.D. Illinoismeteorites Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Stop thieves! The meteorite marauders of Norway.
Today the University of Oslo published the following article on their website.http://wo.uio.no/as/WebObjects/avis.woa/wa/visArtikkel?id=30585del=uniforum Nice pictures of the rock but I felt that the commentary was a bit over the top so I've translated it for your reading pleasure. It looks like there is a steep road to climb for meteorite hunters and collectors in Norway. There aren't many of us but I'd like to think that we're not thieves who don't care about science as is implied by the article. If you disagree with Elen's proposal, maybe a gentle note explaining how you think meteorite collectors and dealers can and do help science would be a good idea. Not that I suggested it of course. Enjoy.Be aware that I may have missed a few norwegian words but I think that I got it right for the most part.___ Private meteorite hunters have come to Norway to find and sell pieces of the meteorite that fell down over Østfold on July 14th to international collectors. Director of the Natural History Museum (University of Oslo) seeks a precise law in order to stop 'meteorite theives'. By Yngve Vogt International meteorite hunters have been tempted by the summer's rare meteorite fall in Østfold. They hunt after pieces of the meteorite and can earn 10,000's of Kroner (1,500USD) by selling to the highest bidder. Today, there are no legal regulations that can prevent this.To this day, three pieces of the Østfold meteorite have been found. International buyers stand in queue. This afternoon, the highest offer was 150,000 Kroner (~25,000USD) for a piece that came down in a yard while the family was on vacation.- This a very high amount for the Natural History, says director of the Natural History Museum, Elen Roaldset. She seeks, therefore, a precise law that will make it so that pieces of meteorites will not be sold to private collectors, but will be owned by the state and will be useful to research.- There is big commercial interest in meteorites. In the Moss area there are rumours that meteorite hunters have come from near and far. Several meteorite hunters have already come from America and Germany. As long as there are no laws, it is very tempting for them to sell meteorite material to the highest bidders and to international collectors. Then the meteorites disappear out of the country. This means that one can not do groundbreaking scientific research. It is via meteorites that we have the possibility to gather knowledge about the formation of the earth and the solar system, points out Elen Roaldset. The meteorite that fell over Østfold on the 14th of July of this year is the 14th meteorite that has fallen in Norway since the Natural History Museum started registering (falls). The meteorite in Østfold, according to Knut Jørgen Røed Ødegaard, very rare and the fifth meteorite of its type. The last time that a comparable meteorite fell, was in Russia in 1937. Each time a new meteorite is found, the meteorite must be registered and approved by an international commission. Wishes clear rulesThe problem with private meteorite hunters happened already when the 78.67kg Finnmarken meteorite fell over Alta in 1902. Then many collectors appeared and sold pieces of the meteorite to other lands. Then geology professor W.C. Brøgger, who later became the university's rector, wrote already about the need for a meteorite law in 1903.Elen Roaldset seeks now norwegian regulations that will be just as strict as those around the finds of old cultural treasures. - A law is needed that takes care of fossils and the type of object that fell over Moss, and that can (protect) the scientific interests of mankind. This law ought to be comparable to the cultural properties law that takes care of viking treasures, says Elen Roaldset.She points out that todays laws are imprecise. The problem is the commercial value that causes problems between finders, property owners, and the state.- What happens if a valuable object falls down on private property? Does the mountain (presumably mining) law or the property law apply? Danish meteorite lawDenmark has solved the legal problem by introducing a law that meteorite finds are property of the state. Also Canada has introduced a comparable law (not strictly true of course).The danish bill secures the most important natural history finds for the danish public.The danish museum law says that objects shall be turned over to the state when they are found in Denmark after January 1990. If the state wishes to keep one of these objects, the finder or owner of the object will get a reward. The size of the reward is dependent on the scientific or display value and how good care the collector has taken care of the object. Hearing statementThe Natural History Museum sent in August of last year a 'hearing statement' to the environment department about the draft of the new law about nature, landscape, and biological diversity, also called
[meteorite-list] Stop thieves! Meteorite marauders of Norway!
I tried sending this a couple of days ago but it never made it to the list. Here goes again, Aug. 11th the University of Oslo published the following article on their website. http://wo.uio.no/as/WebObjects/avis.woa/wa/visArtikkel?id=30585del=uniforum http://wo.uio.no/as/WebObjects/avis.woa/wa/visArtikkel?id=30585del=uniforum Nice pictures of the rock but I felt that the commentary was a bit over the top so I've translated it for your reading pleasure. It looks like there is a steep road to climb for meteorite hunters and collectors in Norway. There aren't many of us but I'd like to think that we're not thieves who don't care about science as is implied by the article. If you disagree with Elen's proposal, maybe a gentle note explaining how you think meteorite collectors and dealers can and do help science would be a good idea. Not that I suggested it of course. Enjoy. Be aware that I may have missed a few norwegian words but I think that I got it right for the most part. ___ Private meteorite hunters have come to Norway to find and sell pieces of the meteorite that fell down over Østfold on July 14^th to international collectors. Director of the Natural History Museum (University of Oslo) seeks a precise law in order to stop 'meteorite theives'. By Yngve Vogt International meteorite hunters have been tempted by the summer's rare meteorite fall in Østfold. They hunt after pieces of the meteorite and can earn 10,000's of Kroner (1,500USD) by selling to the highest bidder. Today, there are no legal regulations that can prevent this. To this day, three pieces of the Østfold meteorite have been found. International buyers stand in queue. This afternoon, the highest offer was 150,000 Kroner (~25,000USD) for a piece that came down in a yard while the family was on vacation. - This a very high amount for the Natural History, says director of the Natural History Museum, Elen Roaldset. She seeks, therefore, a precise law that will make it so that pieces of meteorites will not be sold to private collectors, but will be owned by the state and will be useful to research. - There is big commercial interest in meteorites. In the Moss area there are rumours that meteorite hunters have come from near and far. Several meteorite hunters have already come from America and Germany. As long as there are no laws, it is very tempting for them to sell meteorite material to the highest bidders and to international collectors. Then the meteorites disappear out of the country. This means that one can not do groundbreaking scientific research. It is via meteorites that we have the possibility to gather knowledge about the formation of the earth and the solar system, points out Elen Roaldset. The meteorite that fell over Østfold on the 14^th of July of this year is the 14^th meteorite that has fallen in Norway since the Natural History Museum started registering (falls). The meteorite in Østfold, according to Knut Jørgen Røed Ødegaard, very rare and the fifth meteorite of its type. The last time that a comparable meteorite fell, was in Russia in 1937. Each time a new meteorite is found, the meteorite must be registered and approved by an international commission. Wishes clear rules The problem with private meteorite hunters happened already when the 78.67kg Finnmarken meteorite fell over Alta in 1902. Then many collectors appeared and sold pieces of the meteorite to other lands. Then geology professor W.C. Brøgger, who later became the university's rector, wrote already about the need for a meteorite law in 1903. Elen Roaldset seeks now norwegian regulations that will be just as strict as those around the finds of old cultural treasures. - A law is needed that takes care of fossils and the type of object that fell over Moss, and that can (protect) the scientific interests of mankind. This law ought to be comparable to the cultural properties law that takes care of viking treasures, says Elen Roaldset. She points out that todays laws are imprecise. The problem is the commercial value that causes problems between finders, property owners, and the state. - What happens if a valuable object falls down on private property? Does the mountain (presumably mining) law or the property law apply? Danish meteorite law Denmark has solved the legal problem by introducing a law that meteorite finds are property of the state. Also Canada has introduced a comparable law (not strictly true of course). The danish bill secures the most important natural history finds for the danish public. The danish museum law says that objects shall be turned over to the state when they are found in Denmark after January 1990. If the state wishes to keep one of these objects, the finder or owner of the object will get a reward. The size of the reward is dependent on the scientific or display value and how good
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop thieves! Meteorite marauders of Norway!
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:53:24 +0200, you wrote: And the first time such a meteorite has fallen since 1937. And, it is the first time that more than two meteorite pieces have been found from a meteorite fall in norwegian history. This means that there are hundreds of pieces that will not be found. The meteorite is a holy This part jumped out at me-- he aknowledges that hundreds of pieces will not be found. So which would be better-- to have lots of people with incentives for doing so out searching for those meteorites, giving SOME chance that they will someday find their way to the hands of researchers, or leave them to remain unfound-- but at least they are staying in Norway? At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I REALLY start to get creeped out when someone starts to talk about someone being required to turn over something from their private property for the good of the state (as the writer in the Norweigan blog seems to be doing). As much as I care about the science, I'd rather see the loss to science than see the loss of personal liberties and property rights. If a meteorite falls on my land, I expect to be able to keep it, donate it to science, sell it to shifty foreigners, or grind it up and make finger paint for chimpanzees with it. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] stop harrasing me about posts
Hi Steve and all, Very unfortunate. Did the seller of the 70 gram slice refund your money?? I've sent out thousands of packages (US Postal System) and only had two items with minor damage. --AL Mitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I traded away the 122 gram piece to bob c.As far as the crystals go,they were part of a 70 gram slice that had gotten broken into a thousand pieces by the us mail service.So there mr.know-it-all.Quit judging before you know the facts. all my best,steve!!NOT! --- AL Mitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have NEVER,NEVER cut or broken any of my meteorites, to givaway as freebies.These pieces were either broken,or I just gave away the whole piece.NO CUT OR BROKEN PIECES.I treasure these other worldly pieces from space just as much as the next collecter.I have nothing to apoligize for to anyone. Steve, you have about 10 auctions that are or were running offering Springwater pallasite crystals and part slice (28 gm). I picked up on the fact you had traded for a 122 gram slice of Springwater. A few days later you then have the crystals. Seem odd to me you would have both at the same time but of course possible. Answer me where the 122 gram slice went to The reason I ask is I firmly believe you broke up the larger slice to produce the smaller specimens. Sorry but I don't buy what you are saying. --AL Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 Illinois Meteorites,Ltd! website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] stop harrasing me about posts
Anyone know where I can refer a buyer who wants some Gibeon beads? RSVP off list, please. Thanks, Michael -- You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. -Herb Cohen -- If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] stop harrasing me about posts
Hello list.It is time to blow off some steam tonight toward some list members.People are betting with each other when I blow my promises about psoting with another means.Now I think that is down right moronic.People still bug me about my givaways.Why I just do not know.It really pains me to have to block email address because all some list members want to do is harras me for posting to much.Now when I post this, there will probably be 50 more emails condemning me for this.Well you can see where the immaturaty lies.In 2 days I will be going to mexico for a nice 10 days.Away from computers,cell phones, tv everything that is electronic.It will be a nicely deserverd vacation.I also know some of you will be estatic.Well despite the indifferences that some list members have with me,I will not be detered from speaking my mind.As far as I am concerned I have done nothing wrong,and I still have never done anything to anyone to warrant continue harrasment from certain list members.People call me DUMB F***,A**HOLE,DUMBA**,MENTAL MIDGET,STUPID MORON,etc.This is coming from people with whom I have met and talked and drank meteorites.I just do not know where the attitude has come from in just a short time towards me.It is amazing!Well I also know that I have my fan base out there.I really want to thank them for thier support.I know if the posting becomes a small roar, and not a huge roar, I might win back some of those people whom continue to boycott me.Well I have enjoyed doing the givaways,I have enjoyed selling on ebay,and I have enjoyed selling to people as well.Also I just want to put to rest one thing.I have NEVER,NEVER cut or broken any of my meteorites, to givaway as freebies.These pieces were either broken,or I just gave away the whole piece.NO CUT OR BROKEN PIECES.I treasure these other worldly pieces from space just as much as the next collecter.I have nothing to apoligize for to anyone,unless I have done something wrong.Well that is my steam vent venting and it has cooled down.I hope everyone has a great weekend and week ahead,and I look forward to posting again when I get back.I will also have pictures to post on my website of my vacation.Also while I am down there,I will do some meteorite hunting.Good night all form chicago at 8:32pm. steve arnold, chicago,usa!! Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 Illinois Meteorites,Ltd! website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com __ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] stop harrasing me about posts
On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:33:27 -0700 (PDT), Steve Arnold, Chicago!!! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: F***,A**HOLE,DUMBA**,MENTAL MIDGET,STUPID MORON,etc.This is coming from people with whom I have met and talked and drank meteorites.I just do not Maybe it comes from the drinking of meteorites. Those heavy metals can't be good for you. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] stop harrasing me about posts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have NEVER,NEVER cut or broken any of my meteorites, to givaway as freebies.These pieces were either broken,or I just gave away the whole piece.NO CUT OR BROKEN PIECES.I treasure these other worldly pieces from space just as much as the next collecter.I have nothing to apoligize for to anyone. Steve, you have about 10 auctions that are or were running offering Springwater pallasite crystals and part slice (28 gm). I picked up on the fact you had traded for a 122 gram slice of Springwater. A few days later you then have the crystals. Seem odd to me you would have both at the same time but of course possible. Answer me where the 122 gram slice went to The reason I ask is I firmly believe you broke up the larger slice to produce the smaller specimens. Sorry but I don't buy what you are saying. --AL __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] STOP THIS CRAP sorry bad news
Just say no - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aziz habibi [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sorry bad news Aziz, do me a favor, and do not call me or my wife again. Any problems that I or the Hupes have in Morocco are your doing. do not call me drunk again, you just left 3 messages on my answering machine, babbling like an idiot, drunk. Is not it not illegal for Muslims to drink alcohol? I considered you a friend, but any problems I have in Morocco are from you. You are the only one who talks too much, spreads rumors, tells lies. Why can't you leave people alone? When you wake up, or sober up, then email me, do not call me. And do not threaten me. Michael Farmer - Original Message - From: aziz habibi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:27 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] sorry bad news hello list and alll mike farmer and the hupes could not make it to morrroco again and never again. *i m sorry but i can help it sorry again but its over allthe best aziz _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] STOP, please
Dear Mr Kieskowski, Please stop now. Everyone else, perhaps if everyone stops addressing Mr. Kieskowski on the list he will stop posting. Thanks, Michael on 4/1/04 6:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uncool? Who are you? Wavy Gravy? Bill Kieskowski -- When Jesus said Love your enemies I think he probably meant don't kill them. Anonymous -- For perspective, try THIS: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html -- cool message fro Ben Jerry: www.TrueMajority.org/oreo -- AMAZING photos of Aurora Borealis, etc. http://faculty.rmwc.edu/tmichalik/atmosphere.htm -- Hubble space telescope - AMAZING photos!: http://wires.news.com.au/special/mm/030811-hubble.htm -- http://www.costofwar.com/ -- SUPPORT OUR TROUPS: http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html -- Worth Seeing: Earth at night from satellite: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg -- - Interactive Lady Liberty: http://doody36.home.attbi.com/liberty.htm -- Earth - variety of choices: http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/vplanet.html -- Michael Blood Meteorites: http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop
Hi Fred, Are you serious? Man, there is no end to this guy. Have you contacted him about this? Your prints are copyrighted, right? Have you contacted the proper authorities? -Walter -- www.branchmeteorites.com Walter Branch, Ph.D. Branch Meteorites PO Box 60492 Savannah, GA 31420 - Original Message - From: Fred Olsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop Stop! Thief! Stop! Notorious, internationally, known meteorite thief strikes again. After capers in Egypt and Brazil Ron Farrell of the Universe Collection and Bethany Science has embarked on a new bit of chicanery. He is selling unauthorized color copies of the handmade, hand colored Ensisheim woodcut print produced by Fred Olsen of Denver Colorado. I spent hundreds of hours over two years researching the original print on which this work is based. I visited Ensisheim, Alsace, France in August 1999 and began this project soon after. I searched for a good image of the original broadsheet to start with. I then modified the image, restored missing areas, altered the size to fit the handmade paper, translated and hand wrote the caption. I then transferred the image (mirror image) to a slab of hard maple and carefully carved it out. I then found a printer with a centuries old press who is versed in hand printing. Together we used hundreds of pounds of pressure to print each image, one by one, onto the French handmade paper. Then each print is painted by a professional artist who uses handmade (as were available in 1492) mineral pigment paints that I make from pure mineral crystals. The image of the Ensisheim meteorite is painted with pigments I make from ground meteorite. Ron the Con Farrell got my print from Louis Carion in Tucson in 2001, and started selling his rip-off color copies of my print in 2002. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop
Ron Farrell is well know for this methods, it has made the same thing putting for sale a piece of DaG 489 when instead not there were pieces in circulation Matteo --- Walter Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Fred, Are you serious? Man, there is no end to this guy. Have you contacted him about this? Your prints are copyrighted, right? Have you contacted the proper authorities? -Walter -- www.branchmeteorites.com Walter Branch, Ph.D. Branch Meteorites PO Box 60492 Savannah, GA 31420 - Original Message - From: Fred Olsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop Stop! Thief! Stop! Notorious, internationally, known meteorite thief strikes again. After capers in Egypt and Brazil Ron Farrell of the Universe Collection and Bethany Science has embarked on a new bit of chicanery. He is selling unauthorized color copies of the handmade, hand colored Ensisheim woodcut print produced by Fred Olsen of Denver Colorado. I spent hundreds of hours over two years researching the original print on which this work is based. I visited Ensisheim, Alsace, France in August 1999 and began this project soon after. I searched for a good image of the original broadsheet to start with. I then modified the image, restored missing areas, altered the size to fit the handmade paper, translated and hand wrote the caption. I then transferred the image (mirror image) to a slab of hard maple and carefully carved it out. I then found a printer with a centuries old press who is versed in hand printing. Together we used hundreds of pounds of pressure to print each image, one by one, onto the French handmade paper. Then each print is painted by a professional artist who uses handmade (as were available in 1492) mineral pigment paints that I make from pure mineral crystals. The image of the Ensisheim meteorite is painted with pigments I make from ground meteorite. Ron the Con Farrell got my print from Louis Carion in Tucson in 2001, and started selling his rip-off color copies of my print in 2002. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list = M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.com Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info International Meteorite Collectors Association #2140 MSN Messanger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop
didn't this guy have some kinda scam w/ ga tektites at one time? did he rip 'em off from some collection? From: "Walter Branch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Fred Olsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,"meteorite-list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 05:18:51 -0500 Hi Fred, Are you serious? Man, there is no end to this guy. Have you contacted him about this? Your prints are copyrighted, right? Have you contacted the proper authorities? -Walter -- www.branchmeteorites.com Walter Branch, Ph.D. Branch Meteorites PO Box 60492 Savannah, GA 31420 - Original Message - From: "Fred Olsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "meteorite-list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop Stop! Thief! Stop! Notorious, internationally, known meteorite thief strikes again. After capers in Egypt and Brazil Ron Farrell of the Universe Collection and Bethany Science has embarked on a new bit of chicanery. He is selling unauthorized color copies of the handmade, hand colored Ensisheim woodcut print produced by Fred Olsen of Denver Colorado. I spent hundreds of hours over two years researching the original print on which this work is based. I visited Ensisheim, Alsace, France in August 1999 and began this project soon after. I searched for a good image of the original broadsheet to start with. I then modified the image, restored missing areas, altered the size to fit the handmade paper, translated and hand wrote the caption. I then transferred the image (mirror image) to a slab of hard maple and carefully carved it out. I then found a printer with a centuries old press who is versed in hand printing. Together we used hundreds of pounds of pressure to print each image, one by one, onto the French handmade paper. Then each print is painted by a professional artist who uses handmade (as were available in 1492) mineral pigment paints that I make from pure mineral crystals. The image of the Ensisheim meteorite is painted with pigments I make from ground meteorite. Ron "the Con" Farrell got my print from Louis Carion in Tucson in 2001, and started selling his rip-off color copies of my print in 2002. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service. Try it FREE for one month! __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop
Copyright infringement case That is what it looks like to me. Even if you do not have it specifically marked as "copyright" it still is. Send Mr. Farrell a direct and pointed letter from a lawyer that will be interested in taking this case, to "stop" the infringement immediately. If not, have at him. Steve SchonerM come Meteorite Meteorites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ron Farrell is well know for this methods, it has madethe same thing putting for sale a piece of DaG 489when instead not there were pieces in circulationMatteo--- Walter Branch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Hi Fred, Are you serious? Man, there is no end to this guy. Have you contacted him about this? Your prints are copyrighted, right? Have you contacted the proper authorities? -Walter -- www.branchmeteorites.com Walter Branch, Ph.D. Branch Meteorites PO Box 60492 Savannah, GA 31420- Original Message - From: "Fred Olsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "meteorite-list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, StopStop! Thief! Stop! Notorious, internationally, known meteorite thief strikes again. After capers in Egypt and Brazil Ron Farrell of the Universe Collection and Bethany Science has embarked on a new bit of chicanery. He is selling unauthorized color copies of the handmade, hand colored Ensisheim woodcut print produced by Fred Olsen of Denver Colorado. I spent hundreds of hours over two years researching the original print on which this work is based. I visited Ensisheim, Alsace, France in August 1999 and began this project soon after. I searched for a good image of the original broadsheet to start with. I then modified the image, restored missing areas, altered the size to fit the handmade paper, translated and hand wrote the caption. I then transferred the image (mirror image) to a slab of hard maple and carefully carved it out. I then found a printer with a centuries old press who is versed in hand printing. Together we used hundreds of pounds of pressure to print each image, one by one, onto the French handmade paper. Then each print is painted by a professional artist who uses handmade (as were available in 1492) mineral pigment paints that I make from pure mineral crystals. The image of the Ensisheim meteorite is painted with pigments I make from ground meteorite.Ron "the Con" Farrell got my print from Louis Carion in Tucson in 2001, and started selling his rip-off color copies of my print in 2002. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list__ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list=M come Meteorite - Matteo ChinellatoVia Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALYEmail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.com Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.infoInternational Meteorite Collectors Association #2140MSN Messanger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/__Do you Yahoo!?Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spearshttp://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/__Meteorite-list mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
Re: [meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop
In a message dated 10/30/2003 9:53:12 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Notorious, internationally, known meteorite thief strikes again. After capers in Egypt and Brazil Ron Farrell of the Universe Collection and Bethany Science has embarked on a new bit of chicanery. He is selling unauthorized color copies of the handmade, hand colored Ensisheim woodcut print produced by Fred Olsen of Denver Colorado. SNIP I would like to make one thing absolutely crystal clear: The Ensisheim prints for sale on my site (www.IMPACTIKA.com/Ensisheim.htm), are the Authentic Handmade and Hand-Colored Woodcut Prints from Fred Olsen. Only a limited number was made, they are numbered. And I am the only one selling them on the Internet and at a few Shows. And I get them directly from Fred. Living in the same city probably has something to do with that. If you have any questions, please contact Fred or me. Anne M. Black www. IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] IMCA #2356
[meteorite-list] Stop Thief!, Stop
Stop! Thief! Stop! Notorious, internationally, known meteorite thief strikes again. After capers in Egypt and Brazil Ron Farrell of the Universe Collection and Bethany Science has embarked on a new bit of chicanery. He is selling unauthorized color copies of the handmade, hand colored Ensisheim woodcut print produced by Fred Olsen of Denver Colorado. I spent hundreds of hours over two years researching the original print on which this work is based. I visited Ensisheim, Alsace, France in August 1999 and began this project soon after. I searched for a good image of the original broadsheet to start with. I then modified the image, restored missing areas, altered the size to fit the handmade paper, translated and hand wrote the caption. I then transferred the image (mirror image) to a slab of hard maple and carefully carved it out. I then found a printer with a centuries old press who is versed in hand printing. Together we used hundreds of pounds of pressure to print each image, one by one, onto the French handmade paper. Then each print is painted by a professional artist who uses handmade (as were available in 1492) mineral pigment paints that I make from pure mineral crystals. The image of the Ensisheim meteorite is painted with pigments I make from ground meteorite. Ron the Con Farrell got my print from Louis Carion in Tucson in 2001, and started selling his rip-off color copies of my print in 2002. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Stop
Well, I have seen of who to trust to me and who not to trust to me, with much surprises. I have already put in the Spam box the email of these persons inasmuch as I do not want nuller to that making with these individuals, that they have the double face. To they I only say of ashamed inasmuch as they are only able to take in turn people - you see Marmet issue that it sale to me for $10/gr. Mbale and after sale to others it for $3/gr. - after you come to say me that I make games with the prices. However I am still waiting for the names of the persons who have put in turn the voices on the meteorites recovered here in Italy and all the others historys invented from who. But these personages do not have courage to say it in public, are better than if they are some silent and these false information are kept for they. I have written Stop,hour I see if also the other individuals know this word, a lot I do not see them if they write. Matteo = M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.com Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info International Meteorite Collectors Association #2140 MSN Messanger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/ __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
