Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Martin A. wrote: >To decide, how to call it, is more a question of history, guess >Doug will write us a nice homework about. Hola Martin, Sterling, Al, Chris, Alex, Darren, Xena, List, Thanks, Martin, I'll mostly pass on this planetary round - been there, done that when Tom was helping his kid debate Pluto last time on the metlist - except (!!), to generally agree with Sterling about having an open mind for different classes of planets, why not? The more we learn about our Solar System in this nearly unprecedented age of discovery, the more we need to extend our vocabulary to cover and accomodate. I am still having problems figuring out why Vesta isn't called a planet but I don't want to takes sides in a senslessly manufactured debate! Vesta is cool, differentiated and fits my tastes. Ceres, the first asteroid identified from earth was called a planet for a while, but then was weaseled down to a planetoid whatever that is supposed to mean, and from what I can tell the rationale was because it was not the main mass in its orbit (however that is defined - someone from Caltech had recently formalized this definition for a planet and probably has nicely fit the random history, nomenclature and structure to agree with his opinion). The new discovery's planetary _status_ is just a _status_ symbol like calling a particular astronomical brew a good beer. The obvious ones are hard to dispute, and then there are all the others, which resemble other liquids more than the original type specimens - to each her own. So whether being less filling in its orbit, or tasting great for someone else, the discoverer's comment on kid's textbooks is the only real issue I see here. Fairy tale explanations of Snow White (Earth) and the seven dwarfs and their now sometimes informally downgraded Dog, Pluto, are no longer as easy to explain as a Disney cartoon. Great! As education migrates from senselessly memorizing mnemonics like "My Very Earnest Mother Just Served Us Nine Pickles" to having kids fire up the mind for the complexities of life, I'll be happy to watch the cheerleaders in the great planetary contest from the sidelines. Maybe the Gods are just laughing and the new discovery is just a gift of a golden apple from Venus to set the astronomical community straight that she is the most beautiful planet of all (and perhaps jealous of her status as the only woman planet in the heavens?)... Saludos, Doug __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:20:42 +0200, "Martin Altmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Hi Al&All, > >> The naming of a planet is left to the astronomical community and they >> tend to name after the Greek gods. Suggesting and speculating names on >> this list is simply a waste of time although fun. > >Not at all, it helps to understand, how garish the decision was to name that >object after a TV-Show: "Xena". >Guess the next KBOs will be called: Hulk, Buck, Blob, (Larry, Moe and >Curly), Fuzzy & Lassie. > Actually, they DIDN'T name it after a TV show. As usual in science stories, the news media are wrong. Xena is just an informal nickname they have been using for it and NOT a serious proposal as to what to name the KBO. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Martin wrote: > Not at all, it helps to understand, how garish the decision was to name > that object after a TV-Show: "Xena". > Guess the next KBOs will be called: Hulk, Buck, Blob, (Larry, Moe and > Curly), Fuzzy & Lassie. Scotty! :-) OK, sorry, back to meteorites... Alex __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Hi Al&All, > The naming of a planet is left to the astronomical community and they > tend to name after the Greek gods. Suggesting and speculating names on > this list is simply a waste of time although fun. Not at all, it helps to understand, how garish the decision was to name that object after a TV-Show: "Xena". Guess the next KBOs will be called: Hulk, Buck, Blob, (Larry, Moe and Curly), Fuzzy & Lassie. >(what happened > to the Pluto express??) Cancelled. First you must back to the Moon, before the Chinese are there http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=PLUTOKE For those, who want to learn about the life and works of Clyde Tombaugh: http://www.klx.com/clyde/ Martin - Original Message - From: "AL Mitterling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Meteorite List" Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET? > Hi Sterling, Martin and all, > > Although some might considered off topic (what is a planet) it is on > topic as we don't know where some of the unique meteorites in our > collections come from or any new type that may be discovered. It also > fits the description in the Meteoritical Society's front page. > > I had the privilege of talking to Clyde Tombaugh (discover of Pluto) at > an astronomical league national convention. He joined us one of the > clear observing nights. Although I did a bit of observing it seem more > important to me to talk to Clyde. Many of the other amateurs seem more > enthusiastic about observing rather than tapping the knowledge from Clyde. > > I had a nice half an hour talk with him. One of the questions that have > come up in this thread is how we could have missed such an object. Clyde > mentioned searching from -50 degrees south to +50 degrees north, however > there were spots missing from this search due the W.W.II. The search had > to be discontinued for more important reasons. Some areas were missing > down to 20 degree north. No doubt objects could have been in the missed > areas but Clyde seem to think we had covered our bases pretty good. Not > to say it wouldn't be impossible for another discovery. Also those doing > the work on the blink comparitors, could have always missed a spot when > doing the search for other objects. Clyde mentioned problems with Pluto, > size, makeup and other interesting items. So they were more than aware. > > The discovery of Pluto created a big stir back then and there was a big > media frenzy. The Lowell staff kept things quiet as long as they could > because they were needing to prepare. Also they wanted to pick out a > name before others in the astronomical community had a chance to ruin > this for them. Back then (and probably still today) others were eager to > try to steal the spot light of such an important event and take over. > Try to take away from those who had done the work and much work had been > done. > > Those wanting to demote Pluto to a lesser object would probably be cast > out of society by those folks. I personally don't like changing such > significant historical discoveries, rewriting history. Let Pluto stay > even if it is a lesser object. I know that Clyde later on expressed this > and was somewhat hurt by others trying to demote the planet while he was > still living. > > I agree until we explore further out in our solar system (and we need > to) examine what lies out in the great beyond, we will continue to > debate issues that can only be answered by exploration. (what happened > to the Pluto express??) I agree with Francis Graham it would be nice to > find a meteorite from out in those regions even though the probability > is not good. One thing for sure is until we know more about the make up > of those objects, it will be hard to know one way or the other if we do > indeed have one. > > The naming of a planet is left to the astronomical community and they > tend to name after the Greek gods. Suggesting and speculating names on > this list is simply a waste of time although fun. > > --AL Mitterling > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Hi List, One other thing I might mention, is that Clyde wrote a book on the discovery of Pluto. The title is "Out Of The Darkness, The Planet Pluto" by Clyde W. Tombaugh. Worth a read for those wanting to know more about the details and politics of this significant discovery. --AL __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Hi Sterling, Martin and all, Although some might considered off topic (what is a planet) it is on topic as we don't know where some of the unique meteorites in our collections come from or any new type that may be discovered. It also fits the description in the Meteoritical Society's front page. I had the privilege of talking to Clyde Tombaugh (discover of Pluto) at an astronomical league national convention. He joined us one of the clear observing nights. Although I did a bit of observing it seem more important to me to talk to Clyde. Many of the other amateurs seem more enthusiastic about observing rather than tapping the knowledge from Clyde. I had a nice half an hour talk with him. One of the questions that have come up in this thread is how we could have missed such an object. Clyde mentioned searching from -50 degrees south to +50 degrees north, however there were spots missing from this search due the W.W.II. The search had to be discontinued for more important reasons. Some areas were missing down to 20 degree north. No doubt objects could have been in the missed areas but Clyde seem to think we had covered our bases pretty good. Not to say it wouldn't be impossible for another discovery. Also those doing the work on the blink comparitors, could have always missed a spot when doing the search for other objects. Clyde mentioned problems with Pluto, size, makeup and other interesting items. So they were more than aware. The discovery of Pluto created a big stir back then and there was a big media frenzy. The Lowell staff kept things quiet as long as they could because they were needing to prepare. Also they wanted to pick out a name before others in the astronomical community had a chance to ruin this for them. Back then (and probably still today) others were eager to try to steal the spot light of such an important event and take over. Try to take away from those who had done the work and much work had been done. Those wanting to demote Pluto to a lesser object would probably be cast out of society by those folks. I personally don't like changing such significant historical discoveries, rewriting history. Let Pluto stay even if it is a lesser object. I know that Clyde later on expressed this and was somewhat hurt by others trying to demote the planet while he was still living. I agree until we explore further out in our solar system (and we need to) examine what lies out in the great beyond, we will continue to debate issues that can only be answered by exploration. (what happened to the Pluto express??) I agree with Francis Graham it would be nice to find a meteorite from out in those regions even though the probability is not good. One thing for sure is until we know more about the make up of those objects, it will be hard to know one way or the other if we do indeed have one. The naming of a planet is left to the astronomical community and they tend to name after the Greek gods. Suggesting and speculating names on this list is simply a waste of time although fun. --AL Mitterling __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:22:23 -0700 (PDT), Thomas Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Darren and list, >While we are in the spelling correction/definition >mode, rime IS ice! I know that "rime" is a word for a type of ice-- specificly it is "A coating of ice, as on grass and trees, formed when extremely cold water droplets freeze almost instantly on a cold surface" Now, the ancient Norse MAY have been telling great epic stories of Gods of Thin Skins of Ice on Blades of Grass, but I somehow think that it is more likely that they were speaking of something thicker and more substantial. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Darren and list, While we are in the spelling correction/definition mode, rime IS ice! TW --- Darren Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:34:50 +0200, "Martin Altmann" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >In Norse mythology we have the three giants of > rime. > > I think that you are looking for the word "ice", not > "rime". > > >Those names are not acceptable. Poor Snorri, poor > Icelanders - the Sagas and > >the Edda still have a Wagner&Nazi smell > >and are allowed only as poor copies in miserable > fantasy literature & > >computer role-playing games. > >Bad luck. > > And that's WAY out of left feild! Some of our days > of the week are named after Norse gods. Anyway, > you forgot "Ymir", which would be a good name for > the largest KBO > > http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/ymir.html > > Personally, I'm of the opinion that NO KBOs should > be called planets, including Pluto. > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Hi, Just a minor correction: the quote below should read: "In 1,534,000 years, we will have a major star less than a light year (0.78) away." The star is Gliese 710. I can't wait... "Sterling K. Webb" wrote: > In 534,000 years (1/8000ths of the life of the solar system), we will > have a > major star less than a light year (0.78) away. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
lse could outline a little bit the development of trends in naming: > classical mythology, groups of names from epics, names of towns, wives, > pets, dead persons with scientific merits, living persons with scientific > merits (the asteroid "Ssssteve", I heard, was found to be only a tiny > satellite orbiting "Rob Haag"), dead persons with no scientific merits, > first > brand names... > Cool would be a diagram, where the distribution of brightness of the minor > planets in opposition would be plotted against those thematic name groups. > > If it's true, that Pluto was baptized also to give the initials of Percival > Lowell and as it's not en vogue anymore to continue with classical greek and > latin names, we have to find a name starting with "Mb.." to honour the > discoverer. Guess we have to study some African myths...would be perfect > super-PC, like Quaoar from Tongva, Sedna from the Inuit > > Hey, would have been a great fun and test, how far the PC really reaches, to > give the new object a christian name, hehe. May you imagine what an immense > outcry this would cause in the media? > But would be quite suitable, think to the old woodcuts and medieval drawings > with the > heliocentric system, where adjacent to the sphere of fixed stars are > following the spheres of the angels according their hierarchy. > As we we don't know, how many more KBO will be found more far away, we > should choose a name from the lowest rank, > thus I choose an archangel > and to honour the discoverer, I propose the name: > > Michael > > Hummm, Sedna - Goddess of sea, Eskimo, sounds cold - Pluto, death...perhaps > it's better to plunder the mythologies for personnel with cold, dark & icy > attributes, to reflect the physical nature of the KBOs? > > In Norse mythology we have the three giants of rime. > > Hymir > Daddy of the god of war Tyr. Lives at the edge of heaven. > He has a huge cauldron, wherein he brews all the beer for the gods. Skol! > Once he was on a fishing trip with the boss, Thor. Who was so stupid to > catch the Midgard Snake, which entwines around the whole world. > But Hymir cut the fishing line. > > Thjazi > Had some family struggles, always hungry. > Was slain by Odin, who pulled of Thjazi's eyes, throw them to heaven, where > they formed a pair of stars. > Thjazi I felled, | the giant fierce, > And I hurled the eyes | of Alvaldi's son > To the heavens hot above; > Of my deeds the mightiest | marks are these, > That all men since can see. > What, Harbarth, didst thou the while?" > (Who the heck is Harbath?) > > Gymir > Dad of beauty queen Gerda. She symbolises also the seasons, in > wintertime.. > > Ooops, I forgot! > Those names are not acceptable. Poor Snorri, poor Icelanders - the Sagas and > the Edda still have a Wagner&Nazi smell > and are allowed only as poor copies in miserable fantasy literature & > computer role-playing games. > Bad luck. > > So other suggestions? > Buckleboo! > Martin > > - Original Message - > From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Meteorite List" > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:16 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET? > > > Hi, > > > > > > These recent discoveries of new "planets" is going to heat up the > > on-going quarrel about what is and isn't a planet, with its increasingly > > long definitions and conditions statements designed to trim reality in > > the mold of the arguer's mind. > . __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:34:50 +0200, "Martin Altmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >In Norse mythology we have the three giants of rime. I think that you are looking for the word "ice", not "rime". >Those names are not acceptable. Poor Snorri, poor Icelanders - the Sagas and >the Edda still have a Wagner&Nazi smell >and are allowed only as poor copies in miserable fantasy literature & >computer role-playing games. >Bad luck. And that's WAY out of left feild! Some of our days of the week are named after Norse gods. Anyway, you forgot "Ymir", which would be a good name for the largest KBO http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/ymir.html Personally, I'm of the opinion that NO KBOs should be called planets, including Pluto. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
I'm happy enough for now keeping the definition loose. We have nine objects that we call planets for historical reasons; I'd be cautious adding more until we have a better understanding of their formation. I would lean away from calling anything significantly off the ecliptic a planet, unless we know that they it formed in the same process that produced the other planets. The reason this whole question comes up is because "planet" has a powerful colloquial meaning quite independent of any possible scientific definition. Perhaps the best solution is simply to remove "planet" from the table and leave it to its traditional use. All we need is a formal definition for bodies orbiting stars (possibly on a common plane), with enough mass to form near-spherical surfaces (and maybe a few other criteria). Perhaps "planetoid" could be used for that. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:16 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET? These recent discoveries of new "planets" is going to heat up the on-going quarrel about what is and isn't a planet, with its increasingly long definitions and conditions statements designed to trim reality in the mold of the arguer's mind. ... So, here goes: if it goes around the Sun and is demonstrably (the entire range of error bars above the Ceres diameter) larger than Ceres, it's a planet. Welcome to The Club! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Hi Sterling&list, The naming issue seems to me almost the more interesting problem than the definition, from when on a lump of rock should be called "planet" (greek: wandering star). Does size matter? Perhaps. (at the moment a range from tiny Mercury and Pluto up to giant objects around other stars). Inclination? No. Just bad luck, if the chunk once was kicked off from the plane. Formation and Society is the point. Has it a family of similar members, built in the same region and of similar physical properties? Is there a belt? To decide, how to call it, is more a question of history, guess Doug will write us a nice homework about. At least it is easier to ask if Pluto should be called a planet, than to discuss each time, after a new large KBO will have been detected, whether thius then should be a planet or not. The naming. Names can be changed. In a schoolbook, I have here, I find orbiting the sun beyond Saturn the planets "Herschel" and "Leverier". The dictionary of minor planets' name is to expensive for me. Maybe somone else could outline a little bit the development of trends in naming: classical mythology, groups of names from epics, names of towns, wives, pets, dead persons with scientific merits, living persons with scientific merits (the asteroid "Ssssteve", I heard, was found to be only a tiny satellite orbiting "Rob Haag"), dead persons with no scientific merits, first brand names... Cool would be a diagram, where the distribution of brightness of the minor planets in opposition would be plotted against those thematic name groups. If it's true, that Pluto was baptized also to give the initials of Percival Lowell and as it's not en vogue anymore to continue with classical greek and latin names, we have to find a name starting with "Mb.." to honour the discoverer. Guess we have to study some African myths...would be perfect super-PC, like Quaoar from Tongva, Sedna from the Inuit Hey, would have been a great fun and test, how far the PC really reaches, to give the new object a christian name, hehe. May you imagine what an immense outcry this would cause in the media? But would be quite suitable, think to the old woodcuts and medieval drawings with the heliocentric system, where adjacent to the sphere of fixed stars are following the spheres of the angels according their hierarchy. As we we don't know, how many more KBO will be found more far away, we should choose a name from the lowest rank, thus I choose an archangel and to honour the discoverer, I propose the name: Michael Hummm, Sedna - Goddess of sea, Eskimo, sounds cold - Pluto, death...perhaps it's better to plunder the mythologies for personnel with cold, dark & icy attributes, to reflect the physical nature of the KBOs? In Norse mythology we have the three giants of rime. Hymir Daddy of the god of war Tyr. Lives at the edge of heaven. He has a huge cauldron, wherein he brews all the beer for the gods. Skol! Once he was on a fishing trip with the boss, Thor. Who was so stupid to catch the Midgard Snake, which entwines around the whole world. But Hymir cut the fishing line. Thjazi Had some family struggles, always hungry. Was slain by Odin, who pulled of Thjazi's eyes, throw them to heaven, where they formed a pair of stars. Thjazi I felled, | the giant fierce, And I hurled the eyes | of Alvaldi's son To the heavens hot above; Of my deeds the mightiest | marks are these, That all men since can see. What, Harbarth, didst thou the while?" (Who the heck is Harbath?) Gymir Dad of beauty queen Gerda. She symbolises also the seasons, in wintertime.. Ooops, I forgot! Those names are not acceptable. Poor Snorri, poor Icelanders - the Sagas and the Edda still have a Wagner&Nazi smell and are allowed only as poor copies in miserable fantasy literature & computer role-playing games. Bad luck. So other suggestions? Buckleboo! Martin - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:16 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET? > Hi, > > > These recent discoveries of new "planets" is going to heat up the > on-going quarrel about what is and isn't a planet, with its increasingly > long definitions and conditions statements designed to trim reality in > the mold of the arguer's mind. . __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
In the case of both 2003 UB313 and 2003 EL61, we see that these bodies are surprisingly bright and the first question that comes to mind is "Why did nobody discover them before now?" They weren't looking in the right place,..." Hence I propose as a name for one of them:Waldo Buckleboo! Martin - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:16 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] WHAT IS A PLANET?
Hi,
These recent discoveries of new "planets" is going to heat up the
on-going quarrel about what is and isn't a planet, with its increasingly
long definitions and conditions statements designed to trim reality in
the mold of the arguer's mind.
Frankly, I used to belong to the no-more-planets school of opinion,
but 2003 UB313 has flipped me over like a
pancake on a griddle. It may do the same thing to others, or not. But
whatever the definition is, it shouldn't be too complex or long or
involved. It should be basic.
The original definition of planet (from the Greek word "Planetes,"
or "wanderer") was the five lights in the sky that did not move with the
stars: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Observations and
calculations of their motions goes back 4000 years, possibly 6000.
This original classification from the beginning contained two
radically different kinds of worlds: terrestrials and gas giants, a fact
that was not clear until the XVIIth century. Comets, once it was
understood that they were solar system objects and not weather, were
excluded.
Ceres, the biggest asteroid, was first proposed for planethood
("between Mars and Jupiter, I place a planet") when discovered, but
rejected. Sorry, not big enough, and none of your small relatives
either, Minor Planets is all you get to be.
Pluto got to join the Planet Club right away, It was initially
assumed to a small gas giant about 10,000 to 12,000 miles in diameter.
Then, Kuiper discovered it couldn't be more than 6500 miles in diameter.
Still bigger than Mars, but we're disappointed in you, I must say...
Now we know that Pluto is not a big dog, but a runt (well, nice
moon, anyway), and sure enough, there's a faction on the Membership
Committee that feels we should ease this embarrassment out of The Club,
discreetly to be sure, but it simply doesn't belong, you know...
2003 UB313 is going to stir all this up because that faction of the
Membership Committee unwisely chose to discriminate against newer
candidates on the grounds that they were not even as big as the
"unsuitable" Pluto, and I'm willing to bet that the same people will now
start tut-tut'ing over "unsuitable" inclinations.
In the case of both 2003 UB313 and 2003 EL61, we see that these
bodies are surprisingly bright and the first question that comes to mind
is "Why did nobody discover them before now?" They weren't looking in
the right place, and those who were confident that there were bodies out
there bigger than Pluto have been justified in spades, redoubled.
The question that starts nagging at me is why there isn't there just
as great a likelihood that there is a high inclination body four or five
times the size of Pluto (the size of our own little world) out at 140 or
150 AU? It would actually be dimmer than 2003 UB313, even at that size!
The real reason that the existence of high inclination objects were
dismissed is that "current theory" about solar system formation demanded
that the "planets" be formed pretty much in the same plane. Well,
theories are fine, as long as reality doesn't walk in and stomp all over
them, but when it does, it behooves us to open our eyes a little bit
wider.
And, in case you didn't notice, reality just did that very thing.
As soon as 2003 UB313 flipped me over like a
pancake on a griddle on the planet question, a definition popped into my
mind at the same moment. It's irrational to insist that a new planet be
bigger than Pluto (because that was just an excuse to drag Pluto down,
anyway). The proper comparison is to the most analogous excluded class,
namely the 250,000 known "minor planets."
So, here goes: if it goes around the Sun and is demonstrably (the
entire range of error bars above the Ceres diameter) larger than Ceres,
it's a planet. Welcome to The Club!
That keeps asteroidal riff-raff out of The Club, likewise really big
comets (Charon?), and other oddities. And of course, we'll need to learn
all those new names. That's a problem. For a start, I've learned to
spell QUAOAR and even pronounce it ("Kwa-Oar"). So there.
The people who discover these things really should be a bit more
aware about the names that they pick. Naming a planet-sized body after
an Eskimo Seal Goddess of Plenty is very PC, I'm sure, and I like SEDNA
myself, but there are lots of unused names in the traditional lexicon of
mythology, especially for figures of the nether regions. Persephone
("Per-SEF-fon-ee"), the Queen of Hades, is the most obvious example. But
save Her for that Earth-sized KBO, all right? She is The Queen, after
all...
Let the sniping begin!
Sterling K. Webb
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[meteorite-list] What Is A Planet? Group Searches For Definition
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2004/03/30/what_is_a_planet_group_searches_for_definition/ What is a planet? Group searches for definition Sedna discovery prompts a debate By Beth Daley Boston Globe March 30, 2004 After years of debate, astronomers worldwide are now planning to settle a question that seems basic to every schoolchild: What is a planet? Prompted by controversy over the status of Sedna -- a large and distant object announced this month circling the sun -- the International Astronomical Union is convening a group of top astronomers to draw up official rules for which cosmic bodies are defined as planets. Already, some speculate that there could be a popular casualty. Pluto, the ninth planet, would fail many of the proposed criteria. "There is a lot more evidence now that it really was a mistake to call Pluto a planet," said Brian Marsden at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. Though the definition of a planet -- and the status of Pluto -- have been tense topics in astronomy for years, nothing has energized the debate more than the discovery of Sedna, officially known as 2003 VB12, the largest planetlike object in the solar system since Pluto was first spotted in 1930. Some astronomers say Sedna is clearly a planet, based on a simple definition: Its own gravity has pulled it into a spherical shape. Others say it can't be considered a planet because it is too small and has an orbit very different from those of the existing planets. As new technology allows detection of larger objects in the solar system's outer reaches, some astronomers say an official rule about planet status is long overdue. Without accurate ways to classify and sort the objects circling the sun, it can be difficult to make predictions or draw general conclusions about the solar system. "There is some urgency now" to creating a definition, said astronomer Iwan P. Williams. "It may well be that somebody will find a body 1.5 times the size of Pluto." Williams, a professor at Queen Mary and Westfield College, University of London, will chair the IAU's group, made up of about 12 scientists that began e-mail discussions last week. The group could make a recommendation within several months, but no formal approval will be made until the IAU's next general assembly in 2006. "At long last we do need some definition of a planet," Williams said. "But will it be culturally acceptable?" In one sense, a new definition won't really change astronomy significantly. Some astronomers equate it to the age-old discussion as to whether Australia is an island or a continent: The distinction is mainly semantic. But for astronomers -- and everyone else -- who has grown up on the model of a nine-planet solar system, the new rules could shake what feels like a basic truth. According to one proposed definition, a planet is any large object whose own shape is rounded by gravity. By that rule, the solar system is now home to at least 50 planets, and could have far more. But other definitions would draw the line far differently. According to one proposal, a "planet" must be more massive than the total mass of all the other bodies in a similar orbit. That would disqualify Pluto, leaving an eight-planet solar system. Once it hardly seemed necessary to define a planet. They were first described in ancient times as slowly moving celestial bodies against the backdrop of stationary ones. In 1930, the last planet -- Pluto -- was discovered, and while it was much smaller than the other planets and had a strange orbit, the nine-planet solar system became a staple of school curriculums the world over. But as early as 1801, questions were percolating about new types of cosmic debris that fell into a blurry area. That year, Ceres was discovered between Mars and Jupiter. Though initially called a planet, it was later stripped of that title and classified as an asteroid -- one of many in that part of the solar system. It wasn't until 1992, however, that scientists began taking a much closer look at Pluto and the definition of planets. That year, an entirely new group of bodies was discovered orbiting the sun beyond Neptune, in a region called the Kuiper Belt. Maybe, some scientists speculated, Pluto was just the largest of these objects -- more asteroid than planet. The discussion was largely confined to academic circles until 1999, when Marsden, who runs a Cambridge group called the Minor Planet Center, suggested Pluto be given the honor of being named the 10,000th minor planet, or large asteroid. Marsden saw it an issue of dual citizenship: Pluto would be considered an asteroid by scientists, but could also maintain its public role as a planet. Controversy over this suggestion was so fierce that the International Astronomical Union had to issue a statement saying it had no intention of calling Pluto anything but a planet. Now the debate has started again. Since 1999, several large bodies have been
