Re: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice
Hi John, Peter and list You could also try a sports trophy shop. They engrave on plaques for the trophies. Some jewelers also have the machines. This is commonly done with a diamond tipped scribe in a machine and a set of letters where the scribe would copy the letters. Now there are laser engravers that both jewelers and trophy shops use. A gunsmith would be more likely to "hand engrave", a somewhat lost art but still taught and practiced today. Hand engraving is beautiful and more costly. Machine and laser engraving can also look good and it will be precise. As long as the meteorite (slice) will fit in the machine, it can be done. John On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:43 PM, Peter Scherff via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote: > Hi John, > > Sorry, I misunderstood you. For engraving I would try a local gunsmith. If > they can't do, they will know someone who can. I have seen a lot of old time > slices that have their info etched on them and only a few that have been > engraved. I think either way would be great to and some "classic" gravitas to > an iron. > > Thanks, > > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Bigjohn Shea [mailto:bigjohns...@mail.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 9:37 PM > To: Peter Scherff > Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice > > Peter, All, > Sorry if I'm not being clear. > > Really what my buddy is looking for is someone who can engrave neatly onto an > iron slice. Preferrably with a machine of sorts designed for the purpose of > engraving. > > Thanks though for the knowledge. > I appreciate your time responding. :-) > John > > > > > > Sent using the mail.com mail app > > On 1/5/17 at 8:31 PM, Peter Scherff wrote: > >> Hi John, >> >> I am sure that anyone who etches irons can do this for you. All you >> need is a resist. The simplest would be writing on the iron with a crayon. >> Traditionally asphalt was used. If I were to do it I would purchase >> some stickers since my hand writing is so bad. I am sure that there >> are many other resists that people could use. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Peter >> >> -Original Message----- >> From: Meteorite-list >> [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of >> Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list >> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 9:08 PM >> To: metlist >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice >> >> Asking on behalf of a friend, >> If there is anyone out there who provides a service of etching names >> onto a slice of an iron meteorite (as if etching a name/phrase on a >> wristwatch) please email me at bigjohns...@mail.com. >> Thank you! >> John A. Shea, MD >> IMCA 3295 >> >> >> Sent using the mail.com mail app >> __ >> >> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and >> the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > __ > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the > Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice
Thank you Peter! Sent using the mail.com mail app On 1/5/17 at 8:43 PM, Peter Scherff via Meteorite-list wrote: > Hi John, > > Sorry, I misunderstood you. For engraving I would try a local gunsmith. If > they can't do, they will know someone who can. I have seen a lot of old time > slices that have their info etched on them and only a few that have been > engraved. I think either way would be great to and some "classic" gravitas to > an iron. > > Thanks, > > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Bigjohn Shea [mailto:bigjohns...@mail.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 9:37 PM > To: Peter Scherff > Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice > > Peter, All, > Sorry if I'm not being clear. > > Really what my buddy is looking for is someone who can engrave neatly onto an > iron slice. Preferrably with a machine of sorts designed for the purpose of > engraving. > > Thanks though for the knowledge. > I appreciate your time responding. :-) > John > > > > > > Sent using the mail.com mail app > > On 1/5/17 at 8:31 PM, Peter Scherff wrote: > > > Hi John, > > > > I am sure that anyone who etches irons can do this for you. All you > > need is a resist. The simplest would be writing on the iron with a crayon. > > Traditionally asphalt was used. If I were to do it I would purchase > > some stickers since my hand writing is so bad. I am sure that there > > are many other resists that people could use. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Meteorite-list > > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of > > Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list > > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 9:08 PM > > To: metlist > > Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice > > > > Asking on behalf of a friend, > > If there is anyone out there who provides a service of etching names > > onto a slice of an iron meteorite (as if etching a name/phrase on a > > wristwatch) please email me at bigjohns...@mail.com. > > Thank you! > > John A. Shea, MD > > IMCA 3295 > > > > > > Sent using the mail.com mail app > > __ > > > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and > > the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > __ > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the > Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice
Hi John, Sorry, I misunderstood you. For engraving I would try a local gunsmith. If they can't do, they will know someone who can. I have seen a lot of old time slices that have their info etched on them and only a few that have been engraved. I think either way would be great to and some "classic" gravitas to an iron. Thanks, Peter -Original Message- From: Bigjohn Shea [mailto:bigjohns...@mail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 9:37 PM To: Peter Scherff Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice Peter, All, Sorry if I'm not being clear. Really what my buddy is looking for is someone who can engrave neatly onto an iron slice. Preferrably with a machine of sorts designed for the purpose of engraving. Thanks though for the knowledge. I appreciate your time responding. :-) John Sent using the mail.com mail app On 1/5/17 at 8:31 PM, Peter Scherff wrote: > Hi John, > > I am sure that anyone who etches irons can do this for you. All you > need is a resist. The simplest would be writing on the iron with a crayon. > Traditionally asphalt was used. If I were to do it I would purchase > some stickers since my hand writing is so bad. I am sure that there > are many other resists that people could use. > > Thanks, > > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Meteorite-list > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of > Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 9:08 PM > To: metlist > Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice > > Asking on behalf of a friend, > If there is anyone out there who provides a service of etching names > onto a slice of an iron meteorite (as if etching a name/phrase on a > wristwatch) please email me at bigjohns...@mail.com. > Thank you! > John A. Shea, MD > IMCA 3295 > > > Sent using the mail.com mail app > __ > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and > the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice
Peter, All, Sorry if I'm not being clear. Really what my buddy is looking for is someone who can engrave neatly onto an iron slice. Preferrably with a machine of sorts designed for the purpose of engraving. Thanks though for the knowledge. I appreciate your time responding. :-) John Sent using the mail.com mail app On 1/5/17 at 8:31 PM, Peter Scherff wrote: > Hi John, > > I am sure that anyone who etches irons can do this for you. All you need is > a resist. The simplest would be writing on the iron with a crayon. > Traditionally asphalt was used. If I were to do it I would purchase some > stickers since my hand writing is so bad. I am sure that there are many > other resists that people could use. > > Thanks, > > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Meteorite-list [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On > Behalf Of Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 9:08 PM > To: metlist > Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice > > Asking on behalf of a friend, > If there is anyone out there who provides a service of etching names onto a > slice of an iron meteorite (as if etching a name/phrase on a wristwatch) > please email me at bigjohns...@mail.com. > Thank you! > John A. Shea, MD > IMCA 3295 > > > Sent using the mail.com mail app > __ > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the > Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice
Hi John, I am sure that anyone who etches irons can do this for you. All you need is a resist. The simplest would be writing on the iron with a crayon. Traditionally asphalt was used. If I were to do it I would purchase some stickers since my hand writing is so bad. I am sure that there are many other resists that people could use. Thanks, Peter -Original Message- From: Meteorite-list [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2017 9:08 PM To: metlist Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice Asking on behalf of a friend, If there is anyone out there who provides a service of etching names onto a slice of an iron meteorite (as if etching a name/phrase on a wristwatch) please email me at bigjohns...@mail.com. Thank you! John A. Shea, MD IMCA 3295 Sent using the mail.com mail app __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching a name on an iron meteorite slice
Asking on behalf of a friend, If there is anyone out there who provides a service of etching names onto a slice of an iron meteorite (as if etching a name/phrase on a wristwatch) please email me at bigjohns...@mail.com. Thank you! John A. Shea, MD IMCA 3295 Sent using the mail.com mail app __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] etching canyon diablo
Hello! Could someone give me some tips about etching a slice of Canyon Diablo, in the past years it rusted so I want to bring it back to its old beauty. I have use sand paper till mirror polish and use Nital 10% with a paint brush. I achieve a good contrast from the matrix and the inclusions but the Widmanstätten pattern is not so sharp neither visible. I have put it for about one day in NaOH solution for neutralizing the acid, but the inclusion turn to a gold-yellowish color :( Please help me :) Thanks a lot! x Francesco __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching advice
Hello all, I realize many people ask basic etching advice on the list, but this request is of a more advanced type. I also realize that etching is an art form with many different styles and techniques that some may not be willing to share publicly. So, feel free to respond to all, just to me or not at all. :-) If you wish to correspond with me alone but want the information to remain confidential, please tell me so and I will not share it if that is your wish. I am using Nital and ferric chloride (FC) for my etching depending on the effect I want. However, one thing I am having trouble achieving is the bright etch that some of our European artisans are able to achieve. I am polishing my surfaces to a very high gloss using a buffing wheel before I etch. After, I wash them with dishwashing soap to remove any oils and dry them thoroughly. FC does not provide a bright etch, but Nital (10% solution) should and that is where I am having trouble. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated! Mendy Ouzillou __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching advice
Hi Mendy and all, Asking how some of the other dealers prep and etch meteorites is like asking them to assist you in having a competitive edge over them. I know your a sincere person and I would trust you with information but it's hard to offer up advise while still in the business. One item that all preppers should avoid is using tap water to process meteorites as many city water supplies have chlorine in the water and this can and will effect meteorites and even cause them to rust. I think most everyone knows this but still will volinteer this info. Use distill water instead. Best! --AL Mitterling Mitterling Meteorites Quoting Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com: Hello all, I realize many people ask basic etching advice on the list, but this request is of a more advanced type. I also realize that etching is an art form with many different styles and techniques that some may not be willing to share publicly. So, feel free to respond to all, just to me or not at all. :-) If you wish to correspond with me alone but want the information to remain confidential, please tell me so and I will not share it if that is your wish. I am using Nital and ferric chloride (FC) for my etching depending on the effect I want. However, one thing I am having trouble achieving is the bright etch that some of our European artisans are able to achieve. I am polishing my surfaces to a very high gloss using a buffing wheel before I etch. After, I wash them with dishwashing soap to remove any oils and dry them thoroughly. FC does not provide a bright etch, but Nital (10% solution) should and that is where I am having trouble. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated! Mendy Ouzillou __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Hello Richard, You can probably Google a specific polishing compound or powder and come up with safety information on that specific product without me going into the same detail here. Think about this. Typically, what do we normally use to sand with? We start out with ~180 grit sand paper and work up to maybe 1200 grit. I am guessing many stop at 400 or 600 grit. This is pretty fine stuff, right? Now think about the fine work needed to put samples under a microscope. How about compounds made up of very hard (Mohs 9+) metal particles or diamond compound or mixtures with 100,000 grit or even 150,000 grit! The particle size is so small, it can go into your body through your skin or lungs, etc just by handling it. Jim - Original Message - From: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net To: Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com; Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Jim...nice post. Can you elaborate on the compound? - Original Message - From: Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com To: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark and Doug and all! Another good topic...that goes along with etching meteorites is the polishing compounds used prior to etching. For example, a 1 micron polishing compound or mixture has it's own set of safety issues. The concern is absorption through the skin, etc! Most probably do not polish to that level But some do! Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr.us - Original Message - From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Doug, Thanks for the comments. I'm a Certified Industrial Hygienist and a Certified Safety Professional and have been in the chemical health and safety field for more years than I care to admit. Before that, I used to work as an analytical chemist. There is a lot of information you have passed on to the list with good intent, but there are several assumptions that you are making that are not substantiated. However, I agree that the purpose of the list is not to get into a deep discussion of health and safety issues. Anyone who would like to do so can contact me off-list. But I do have a concern that many of the comments in the threads have been a bit too casual - that may be my interpretation or reading only - and if so I apologize. But we have identified three unfortunate experiences with nitric acid/ethanol since the discussion started - and I want to do my best to warn those of the potential hazards that are involved before someone gets hurt or has another unfortunate tale to post on the internet. I think we all have the same objective as far as that goes. One last item - you may want to calculate the percent composition of the 3 molar (normal) solution you are recommending and compare the figure to Bretherick's data for instability. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
If someone is aspiring for fourth place, and needs sacrificial material to practice on, I happen to have a very nice looking wrong:) Willing to trade a small chunk for a photograph or two of the results. Out of 'palm' sized slices until I get the main mass cut or knock another corner off. But have three smaller chunks in the 50 to 100 gram range that each have enough metal to try for false Neumann lines. Unless they were caused by his ultra precision sanding (mine ain't) last picture here suggests false Neumann lines may appear with a proper etch. http://alt-config.net/brandon-pics.html William On Saturday 28 January 2012, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: Hi List, Two of the three best etchers are on this List - Mike Miller and Mirko Graul. If you want super results, copy their technique - if they will share it. Best regards, MikeG __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
explosive Definitely caution when playing around with corrosives is of the first order...that said, sure, ethanol is a racing car engine fuel and under the right conditions can combust; But people drink it even straight... Many things we do have risks associated with them some very serious and definitely we must respect all reagents especially corrosives like nitric acid. For example, many people enjoy fireworks. Yet, fireworks are explosive and dangerous if you put them near sparks or heat,or try to light them with a charcoal grill. And obviously gasoline combusts too yet mechanics and Dads everywhere use it to clean hands and metal parts and also have arc welders nearby. Or sulfuric acid inside a car battery - don't get it on your bikini when working on the car! If you are going to use anything, it needs to be done with respect and a quick read of the MSDS of whatever chemicals you are using... (and don't trust everything you read on a discussion l;ist posted at 3 AM) It is not a good idea to have concentrated nitric acid and ignore the label, for example and my heart goes out to Anita on that. Depends the kind of person you are. When I make my smoothie in the morning I use fresh cherries as one of 18-20 ingredients and a preparation that takes an hour. It's life threatening if I accidentally put a pit in my blender (which can easily liquify meteorites, it's so powerful) due to the specialized needs of a family member who cannot eat. So I double count the cherries first, count the pits as I punch them out, and then count them once again when I dispose of them. No shortcuts, All common sense! Bart Simpson's pet python once made nital in an episode of The Simpsons, which is amusing if you haven't had a bad experience you can't laugh about I think the writers were Caltech rejects that had to go to MIT and have to do this to humor themselves, this wasn't the only snarky chemistry episode. (episode: Stop or my Dog will Shoot!) Here's the link: http://video.i.ua/user/810302/8185/35583/ it take a little time to stream, but once ready the scene is at the 17:49 minute:seconds mark. ... and that' why in my summary which I did much too quickly to be complete, I suggest that you use water, that is to say, NitH20,. or as it's commonly known just dilute Nitric Acid, rather tha alcohols to develop your method. Nothing wrong with water, it is really getting a bum wrap and it is GRAS ;-) It is what everyone that is using FeCl3 is using as a diluent, too. For the HNO3 the 3.0 N concentration works best for me. Absolutely no need to buy concentrated acid and you can avoid all the issues of what to add to what and no need for Hazmet backup. You can buy it already diluted, get the same benefit of a nitric acid etch (alcohol doesn't etch, it's only a carrier and diluent). Just crank up the oven to the higher end of a safe drying temperature. That's the only real benefit of alcohol in my opinion - it allows a cooler drying which can povide a nicer (lower oxdation residue on the virgin etched surface, but now we are staerting rally to split hairs...IMO. Speaking of diluents, there's no reason nital (alcohol) is special as a diluent. Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone (Nitkeytone ?) and any number of other solvents would work fine if not be hiding a secret for even a better etching solution. Sure acetone is flammable and can give you the willies too, you can't win but that doesn't stop women who understand the chemical they use from putting it on their fingernails ;-) granted not with acid, though I bet some do inadvertantly mix it with salycilic acid solution when disolving excess skin ;-), which if not used properly could chemically remove a lot of flesh ... Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com; meteoritesnorth meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 12:32 am Subject: Fw: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Did a quick search on the internet. Read this tale from the Meteorite Association of Georgia regarding the hazards of mixing nitric acid and ethanol: http://www.meteoriteassociationofgeorgia.org/article-052007.htm. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: mexicod...@aim.com; meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution I don't know all of the details of the etching process, but a word of caution - mixing concentrated nitric acid with ethanol can result in an explosion and a fire. I've witnessed the results of the reaction when someone inadvertently mixed the two in a lab years ago. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone (Nitkeytone ?) and any number of other solvents would work OK, don'rt bother with this one! I just did; It actually etches, but leaves a yucky finish. The fumes are no worse than other nitals, though I wouldn't want to breath much of them until I knew more; but there didn't seem to be any decomposition. I used reagent grade acetone to avoid possibly nasty impurities, and the nitric acid concentration only 3.9% just in case I hit a flash point, full face shield and a fan venting right out the door. Nice to have had an 81 F day today and still its warm enough to open the door ;-) nice etch, terrible residue. Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: markig mar...@westnet.com; meteoritesnorth meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:11 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution explosive Definitely caution when playing around with corrosives is of the first order...that said, sure, ethanol is a racing car engine fuel and under the right conditions can combust; But people drink it even straight... Many things we do have risks associated with them some very serious and definitely we must respect all reagents especially corrosives like nitric acid. For example, many people enjoy fireworks. Yet, fireworks are explosive and dangerous if you put them near sparks or heat,or try to light them with a charcoal grill. And obviously gasoline combusts too yet mechanics and Dads everywhere use it to clean hands and metal parts and also have arc welders nearby. Or sulfuric acid inside a car battery - don't get it on your bikini when working on the car! If you are going to use anything, it needs to be done with respect and a quick read of the MSDS of whatever chemicals you are using... (and don't trust everything you read on a discussion l;ist posted at 3 AM) It is not a good idea to have concentrated nitric acid and ignore the label, for example and my heart goes out to Anita on that. Depends the kind of person you are. When I make my smoothie in the morning I use fresh cherries as one of 18-20 ingredients and a preparation that takes an hour. It's life threatening if I accidentally put a pit in my blender (which can easily liquify meteorites, it's so powerful) due to the specialized needs of a family member who cannot eat. So I double count the cherries first, count the pits as I punch them out, and then count them once again when I dispose of them. No shortcuts, All common sense! Bart Simpson's pet python once made nital in an episode of The Simpsons, which is amusing if you haven't had a bad experience you can't laugh about I think the writers were Caltech rejects that had to go to MIT and have to do this to humor themselves, this wasn't the only snarky chemistry episode. (episode: Stop or my Dog will Shoot!) Here's the link: http://video.i.ua/user/810302/8185/35583/ it take a little time to stream, but once ready the scene is at the 17:49 minute:seconds mark. ... and that' why in my summary which I did much too quickly to be complete, I suggest that you use water, that is to say, NitH20,. or as it's commonly known just dilute Nitric Acid, rather tha alcohols to develop your method. Nothing wrong with water, it is really getting a bum wrap and it is GRAS ;-) It is what everyone that is using FeCl3 is using as a diluent, too. For the HNO3 the 3.0 N concentration works best for me. Absolutely no need to buy concentrated acid and you can avoid all the issues of what to add to what and no need for Hazmet backup. You can buy it already diluted, get the same benefit of a nitric acid etch (alcohol doesn't etch, it's only a carrier and diluent). Just crank up the oven to the higher end of a safe drying temperature. That's the only real benefit of alcohol in my opinion - it allows a cooler drying which can povide a nicer (lower oxdation residue on the virgin etched surface, but now we are staerting rally to split hairs...IMO. Speaking of diluents, there's no reason nital (alcohol) is special as a diluent. Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone (Nitkeytone ?) and any number of other solvents would work fine if not be hiding a secret for even a better etching solution. Sure acetone is flammable and can give you the willies too, you can't win but that doesn't stop women who understand the chemical they use from putting it on their fingernails ;-) granted not with acid, though I bet some do inadvertantly mix it with salycilic acid solution when disolving excess skin ;-), which if not used properly could chemically remove a lot of flesh ... Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com; meteoritesnorth meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 12:32 am Subject: Fw
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
I believe there was an article by Hartman a few years back about the use of ferric chloride. The conclusion was that it gave a better etch??? I think it was in Meteorite-Times. Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mexicod...@aim.com; mar...@westnet.com; meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone (Nitkeytone ?) and any number of other solvents would work OK, don'rt bother with this one! I just did; It actually etches, but leaves a yucky finish. The fumes are no worse than other nitals, though I wouldn't want to breath much of them until I knew more; but there didn't seem to be any decomposition. I used reagent grade acetone to avoid possibly nasty impurities, and the nitric acid concentration only 3.9% just in case I hit a flash point, full face shield and a fan venting right out the door. Nice to have had an 81 F day today and still its warm enough to open the door ;-) nice etch, terrible residue. Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: markig mar...@westnet.com; meteoritesnorth meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:11 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution explosive Definitely caution when playing around with corrosives is of the first order...that said, sure, ethanol is a racing car engine fuel and under the right conditions can combust; But people drink it even straight... Many things we do have risks associated with them some very serious and definitely we must respect all reagents especially corrosives like nitric acid. For example, many people enjoy fireworks. Yet, fireworks are explosive and dangerous if you put them near sparks or heat,or try to light them with a charcoal grill. And obviously gasoline combusts too yet mechanics and Dads everywhere use it to clean hands and metal parts and also have arc welders nearby. Or sulfuric acid inside a car battery - don't get it on your bikini when working on the car! If you are going to use anything, it needs to be done with respect and a quick read of the MSDS of whatever chemicals you are using... (and don't trust everything you read on a discussion l;ist posted at 3 AM) It is not a good idea to have concentrated nitric acid and ignore the label, for example and my heart goes out to Anita on that. Depends the kind of person you are. When I make my smoothie in the morning I use fresh cherries as one of 18-20 ingredients and a preparation that takes an hour. It's life threatening if I accidentally put a pit in my blender (which can easily liquify meteorites, it's so powerful) due to the specialized needs of a family member who cannot eat. So I double count the cherries first, count the pits as I punch them out, and then count them once again when I dispose of them. No shortcuts, All common sense! Bart Simpson's pet python once made nital in an episode of The Simpsons, which is amusing if you haven't had a bad experience you can't laugh about I think the writers were Caltech rejects that had to go to MIT and have to do this to humor themselves, this wasn't the only snarky chemistry episode. (episode: Stop or my Dog will Shoot!) Here's the link: http://video.i.ua/user/810302/8185/35583/ it take a little time to stream, but once ready the scene is at the 17:49 minute:seconds mark. ... and that' why in my summary which I did much too quickly to be complete, I suggest that you use water, that is to say, NitH20,. or as it's commonly known just dilute Nitric Acid, rather tha alcohols to develop your method. Nothing wrong with water, it is really getting a bum wrap and it is GRAS ;-) It is what everyone that is using FeCl3 is using as a diluent, too. For the HNO3 the 3.0 N concentration works best for me. Absolutely no need to buy concentrated acid and you can avoid all the issues of what to add to what and no need for Hazmet backup. You can buy it already diluted, get the same benefit of a nitric acid etch (alcohol doesn't etch, it's only a carrier and diluent). Just crank up the oven to the higher end of a safe drying temperature. That's the only real benefit of alcohol in my opinion - it allows a cooler drying which can povide a nicer (lower oxdation residue on the virgin etched surface, but now we are staerting rally to split hairs...IMO. Speaking of diluents, there's no reason nital (alcohol) is special as a diluent. Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone (Nitkeytone ?) and any number of other solvents would work fine if not be hiding a secret for even a better etching solution. Sure acetone is flammable and can give you the willies too, you can't win but that doesn't stop women who understand the chemical they use from putting
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Hi Jim, My respects to all the ferric chloride lovers out there and especially Ron Hartman, bless him. A blanket statement of a better etch is pretty meaningless. I recall asking Arcady who had all the Seymchan several years back why all of his specimens were etched so deeply that they looked like someone chiseled the etch into them and then put on a matte clearcoat. He said, the customers prefer a deep etch. I thought it was butt ugly (not to mention a more discrete etching such as by mild nitric acid's slow action introduces far less nucleation sites for oxidation). There are so many factors. If the iron chloride etch were better it wouldn't hurt to send those conclusions to the Smithsonian, British Museum, Weiner Naturhistorisches Museum, Max-Planck-Institut für Chemie (or whatever its called now) Collection, Paris Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle, etc. for comment. ;-) BTW, there are many variables not realated to the etch to consider. Though ferric chloride is 'easier', when it comes to mixing up, it doesn't mean it is less toxic in other ways. Ever wonder if it was legal or smart to pour spent solution down the drain or into the soils? Nickel chloride and nickel nitrate (produced in etching) are both mutagenic. Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. But with all the other heavy metal ions in iron meteorites, again, respect for the chemical is important regardless of what risks are perceived - it's never the full story and like smoking, everyone doesn't even have equal sensitivity. Kindest wishes Douh -Original Message- From: Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com To: Meteorite-List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:48 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution I believe there was an article by Hartman a few years back about the use of ferric chloride. The conclusion was that it gave a better etch??? I think it was in Meteorite-Times. Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mexicod...@aim.com; mar...@westnet.com; meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone (Nitkeytone ?) and any number of other solvents would work OK, don'rt bother with this one! I just did; It actually etches, but leaves a yucky finish. The fumes are no worse than other nitals, though I wouldn't want to breath much of them until I knew more; but there didn't seem to be any decomposition. I used reagent grade acetone to avoid possibly nasty impurities, and the nitric acid concentration only 3.9% just in case I hit a flash point, full face shield and a fan venting right out the door. Nice to have had an 81 F day today and still its warm enough to open the door ;-) nice etch, terrible residue. Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: markig mar...@westnet.com; meteoritesnorth meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:11 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution explosive Definitely caution when playing around with corrosives is of the first order...that said, sure, ethanol is a racing car engine fuel and under the right conditions can combust; But people drink it even straight... Many things we do have risks associated with them some very serious and definitely we must respect all reagents especially corrosives like nitric acid. For example, many people enjoy fireworks. Yet, fireworks are explosive and dangerous if you put them near sparks or heat,or try to light them with a charcoal grill. And obviously gasoline combusts too yet mechanics and Dads everywhere use it to clean hands and metal parts and also have arc welders nearby. Or sulfuric acid inside a car battery - don't get it on your bikini when working on the car! If you are going to use anything, it needs to be done with respect and a quick read of the MSDS of whatever chemicals you are using... (and don't trust everything you read on a discussion l;ist posted at 3 AM) It is not a good idea to have concentrated nitric acid and ignore the label, for example and my heart goes out to Anita on that. Depends the kind of person you are. When I make my smoothie in the morning I use fresh cherries as one of 18-20 ingredients and a preparation that takes an hour. It's life threatening if I accidentally put a pit in my blender (which can easily liquify meteorites, it's so powerful) due to the specialized needs of a family member who cannot eat. So I double count the cherries first, count the pits as I punch them out, and then count them once again when I dispose of them. No shortcuts, All common sense! Bart
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Hi Doug, No argument there! Safety is key as you pointed out. My suggestion, over time, is to try them all in a safe environment. Maaayyybe is specific applications, one my produce the desired result better over the other. Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr.us - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: nf11...@npgcable.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Jim, My respects to all the ferric chloride lovers out there and especially Ron Hartman, bless him. A blanket statement of a better etch is pretty meaningless. I recall asking Arcady who had all the Seymchan several years back why all of his specimens were etched so deeply that they looked like someone chiseled the etch into them and then put on a matte clearcoat. He said, the customers prefer a deep etch. I thought it was butt ugly (not to mention a more discrete etching such as by mild nitric acid's slow action introduces far less nucleation sites for oxidation). There are so many factors. If the iron chloride etch were better it wouldn't hurt to send those conclusions to the Smithsonian, British Museum, Weiner Naturhistorisches Museum, Max-Planck-Institut für Chemie (or whatever its called now) Collection, Paris Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle, etc. for comment. ;-) BTW, there are many variables not realated to the etch to consider. Though ferric chloride is 'easier', when it comes to mixing up, it doesn't mean it is less toxic in other ways. Ever wonder if it was legal or smart to pour spent solution down the drain or into the soils? Nickel chloride and nickel nitrate (produced in etching) are both mutagenic. Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. But with all the other heavy metal ions in iron meteorites, again, respect for the chemical is important regardless of what risks are perceived - it's never the full story and like smoking, everyone doesn't even have equal sensitivity. Kindest wishes Douh -Original Message- From: Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com To: Meteorite-List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:48 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution I believe there was an article by Hartman a few years back about the use of ferric chloride. The conclusion was that it gave a better etch??? I think it was in Meteorite-Times. Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mexicod...@aim.com; mar...@westnet.com; meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone (Nitkeytone ?) and any number of other solvents would work OK, don'rt bother with this one! I just did; It actually etches, but leaves a yucky finish. The fumes are no worse than other nitals, though I wouldn't want to breath much of them until I knew more; but there didn't seem to be any decomposition. I used reagent grade acetone to avoid possibly nasty impurities, and the nitric acid concentration only 3.9% just in case I hit a flash point, full face shield and a fan venting right out the door. Nice to have had an 81 F day today and still its warm enough to open the door ;-) nice etch, terrible residue. Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: markig mar...@westnet.com; meteoritesnorth meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:11 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution explosive Definitely caution when playing around with corrosives is of the first order...that said, sure, ethanol is a racing car engine fuel and under the right conditions can combust; But people drink it even straight... Many things we do have risks associated with them some very serious and definitely we must respect all reagents especially corrosives like nitric acid. For example, many people enjoy fireworks. Yet, fireworks are explosive and dangerous if you put them near sparks or heat,or try to light them with a charcoal grill. And obviously gasoline combusts too yet mechanics and Dads everywhere use it to clean hands and metal parts and also have arc welders nearby. Or sulfuric acid inside a car battery - don't get it on your bikini when working on the car! If you are going to use anything, it needs to be done with respect and a quick read of the MSDS of whatever chemicals you are using... (and don't trust everything you read on a discussion l;ist posted at 3 AM) It is not a good idea to have concentrated nitric acid and ignore the label, for example and my heart goes out to Anita on that. Depends the kind of person you are. When I make my smoothie
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Hi, Couple of thoughts. Mark's Law: If you're standing in the exact same spot as someone else when a mixture of nitric acid and ethanol explodes, the sensitivities of the two individuals to harm are always the same. :-) Both nickel chloride and nickel nitrate are soluble nickel compounds, and as far as carcinogenicity goes, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists and the International Agency for Research on Cancer group the two compounds together. As far as I am aware, there was no singling out of nickel chloride as being 15 times more carcinogenic than nickel nitrate - you indicated both are products of etching - one from ferric chloride and the other from nitric acid. The insoluble oxides of nickel are more carcinogenic, but that's not the compounds you are referring to. Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. Similarly, would appreciate a reference to isopropyl alcohol being more dangerous to use for etching with nitric acid than ethanol, under the same set of conditions. Why is isopropyl alcohol more prone to a freak explosion or blow up than ethanol? Explosions with concentrated nitric acid and ethanol are well-documented. Now I am not relying on Wikipedia as an academic reference, but I think the information contained on the webpage is worthy of discussion and/or criticism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nital and the mention of the hazards associated with 5 and 10 percent solutions. This information appears to come from Bretherick, which is a pretty good chemical reference that I have used in the past (see http://www.ab.ust.hk/hseo/tips/ls/ls005.htm). Reading Material Safety Data Sheets should always be required - but realize that many are inadequate and often do not list or spell out the safety precautions which should be employed. A lot of technical information was contained in the last few emails, and if we all agree that respect for chemicals is critical, then it would be useful to confirm the facts. Thanks! Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: nf11...@npgcable.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Jim, My respects to all the ferric chloride lovers out there and especially Ron Hartman, bless him. A blanket statement of a better etch is pretty meaningless. I recall asking Arcady who had all the Seymchan several years back why all of his specimens were etched so deeply that they looked like someone chiseled the etch into them and then put on a matte clearcoat. He said, the customers prefer a deep etch. I thought it was butt ugly (not to mention a more discrete etching such as by mild nitric acid's slow action introduces far less nucleation sites for oxidation). There are so many factors. If the iron chloride etch were better it wouldn't hurt to send those conclusions to the Smithsonian, British Museum, Weiner Naturhistorisches Museum, Max-Planck-Institut für Chemie (or whatever its called now) Collection, Paris Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle, etc. for comment. ;-) BTW, there are many variables not realated to the etch to consider. Though ferric chloride is 'easier', when it comes to mixing up, it doesn't mean it is less toxic in other ways. Ever wonder if it was legal or smart to pour spent solution down the drain or into the soils? Nickel chloride and nickel nitrate (produced in etching) are both mutagenic. Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. But with all the other heavy metal ions in iron meteorites, again, respect for the chemical is important regardless of what risks are perceived - it's never the full story and like smoking, everyone doesn't even have equal sensitivity. Kindest wishes Douh -Original Message- From: Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com To: Meteorite-List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:48 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution I believe there was an article by Hartman a few years back about the use of ferric chloride. The conclusion was that it gave a better etch??? I think it was in Meteorite-Times. Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mexicod...@aim.com; mar...@westnet.com; meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone (Nitkeytone ?) and any number of other solvents would work OK, don'rt bother with this one! I just did; It actually etches, but leaves a yucky finish. The fumes are no worse than other nitals, though I wouldn't want
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
. Otherwise buy the diluted acid= problem significantly minimized. You want to make etchant? Don't make such a large amount in a bottle/beaker at once. Don't use such an excess when etching, experiment by painting it on with a brush instead - problem significantly minimuzed ... and so on. Hope this gives better insight. Having THE answer to these things is too tall an order, yet experience and common sense are why other individuals can etch more easily than making scrambled eggs. Our appreciation of risk is terribly distorted. Once I was in a discussion with Sterling sopmewhere discussing this and he even referenced someplace, proabbly wiki the bias I described had a name. You know, the same one that evaluates whether to be frightened from falling asteroids vs. driving to work in the morning. I'm still waiting for the thriller movie, Highway jaunt where no rogue asteroids or murderous psychopats pass by, but Strawberry Shortcake girl just takes her car for a spin and suddenly every individual in the traffic stream has a compulsion to run over her on her sweet bicycle. Point of the dumb example being the high risk we have experience has much lower fear factor than the almost non-existent risk which ends in carnage and mahem, even if a decision tree analysis shows that the friendly risk is a million times more likely. Kindest wsihes Doug PS I have stretched too much to participate in this give some other difficult responsibilities I ahve at the m,oment so I did my best and will likely retire for a while to catch up on things. PPS, After all this, I think my new etchant of choice will be Coca Cola. No doubt it works or can be tweaked to, too. -Original Message- From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: nf114ec nf11...@npgcable.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:20 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi, Couple of thoughts. Mark's Law: If you're standing in the exact same spot as someone else when a mixture of nitric acid and ethanol explodes, the sensitivities of the two individuals to harm are always the same. :-) Both nickel chloride and nickel nitrate are soluble nickel compounds, and as far as carcinogenicity goes, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists and the International Agency for Research on Cancer group the two compounds together. As far as I am aware, there was no singling out of nickel chloride as being 15 times more carcinogenic than nickel nitrate - you indicated both are products of etching - one from ferric chloride and the other from nitric acid. The insoluble oxides of nickel are more carcinogenic, but that's not the compounds you are referring to. Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. Similarly, would appreciate a reference to isopropyl alcohol being more dangerous to use for etching with nitric acid than ethanol, under the same set of conditions. Why is isopropyl alcohol more prone to a freak explosion or blow up than ethanol? Explosions with concentrated nitric acid and ethanol are well-documented. Now I am not relying on Wikipedia as an academic reference, but I think the information contained on the webpage is worthy of discussion and/or criticism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nital and the mention of the hazards associated with 5 and 10 percent solutions. This information appears to come from Bretherick, which is a pretty good chemical reference that I have used in the past (see http://www.ab.ust.hk/hseo/tips/ls/ls005.htm). Reading Material Safety Data Sheets should always be required - but realize that many are inadequate and often do not list or spell out the safety precautions which should be employed. A lot of technical information was contained in the last few emails, and if we all agree that respect for chemicals is critical, then it would be useful to confirm the facts. Thanks! Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: nf11...@npgcable.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Jim, My respects to all the ferric chloride lovers out there and especially Ron Hartman, bless him. A blanket statement of a better etch is pretty meaningless. I recall asking Arcady who had all the Seymchan several years back why all of his specimens were etched so deeply that they looked like someone chiseled the etch into them and then put on a matte clearcoat. He said, the customers prefer a deep etch. I thought it was butt ugly (not to mention a more discrete etching such as by mild nitric acid's slow action introduces far less nucleation sites for oxidation). There are so many factors. If the iron chloride etch were better
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Hi Doug, Thanks for the comments. I'm a Certified Industrial Hygienist and a Certified Safety Professional and have been in the chemical health and safety field for more years than I care to admit. Before that, I used to work as an analytical chemist. There is a lot of information you have passed on to the list with good intent, but there are several assumptions that you are making that are not substantiated. However, I agree that the purpose of the list is not to get into a deep discussion of health and safety issues. Anyone who would like to do so can contact me off-list. But I do have a concern that many of the comments in the threads have been a bit too casual - that may be my interpretation or reading only - and if so I apologize. But we have identified three unfortunate experiences with nitric acid/ethanol since the discussion started - and I want to do my best to warn those of the potential hazards that are involved before someone gets hurt or has another unfortunate tale to post on the internet. I think we all have the same objective as far as that goes. One last item - you may want to calculate the percent composition of the 3 molar (normal) solution you are recommending and compare the figure to Bretherick's data for instability. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete with the other ones I've got floundering. Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the first time, maybe not. and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there are solubility issues, but these both look like they are well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's the significance of getting these things into ones local envoironment and the general environment (waters, soils, air, etc.). We don't think about this but doing it out on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and tossing the waste into the immediate area, it will dry and become particulate contaminants which over time the wind will distribute in the lungs of little boys playing there, through the kitchen window, etc. Probably no big deal in most cases, but there is always that one case that something goes terribly wrong. And getting back to the maximum 'permissible' exposure limit (sheesh, now to add residence time, cumulative properties in the body, it's head spinning). Which is why, in this case for a rat which is assumed to react as a human (but may not), at least we can point a finger at the threshold of toxicity, which itself is a a single point determined after half of the subjects have croaked, illustrating that half are just fine whereas it is toxic to half of them at even lower levels, or something along tose lines. As for your other reference of isopropyl vs. ethyl alcohols and explosion
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Hi Mark and Doug and all! Another good topic...that goes along with etching meteorites is the polishing compounds used prior to etching. For example, a 1 micron polishing compound or mixture has it's own set of safety issues. The concern is absorption through the skin, etc! Most probably do not polish to that level But some do! Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr.us - Original Message - From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Doug, Thanks for the comments. I'm a Certified Industrial Hygienist and a Certified Safety Professional and have been in the chemical health and safety field for more years than I care to admit. Before that, I used to work as an analytical chemist. There is a lot of information you have passed on to the list with good intent, but there are several assumptions that you are making that are not substantiated. However, I agree that the purpose of the list is not to get into a deep discussion of health and safety issues. Anyone who would like to do so can contact me off-list. But I do have a concern that many of the comments in the threads have been a bit too casual - that may be my interpretation or reading only - and if so I apologize. But we have identified three unfortunate experiences with nitric acid/ethanol since the discussion started - and I want to do my best to warn those of the potential hazards that are involved before someone gets hurt or has another unfortunate tale to post on the internet. I think we all have the same objective as far as that goes. One last item - you may want to calculate the percent composition of the 3 molar (normal) solution you are recommending and compare the figure to Bretherick's data for instability. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete with the other ones I've got floundering. Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the first time, maybe not. and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there are solubility issues, but these both look like they are well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's the significance of getting these things into ones local envoironment and the general environment (waters, soils, air, etc.). We don't think about this but doing it out on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and tossing the waste into the immediate area, it will dry and become particulate contaminants which over time the wind will distribute in the lungs of little boys playing there, through the kitchen window, etc. Probably no big deal in most cases, but there is always that one case that something goes
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Jim...nice post. Can you elaborate on the compound? - Original Message - From: Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com To: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark and Doug and all! Another good topic...that goes along with etching meteorites is the polishing compounds used prior to etching. For example, a 1 micron polishing compound or mixture has it's own set of safety issues. The concern is absorption through the skin, etc! Most probably do not polish to that level But some do! Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr.us - Original Message - From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Doug, Thanks for the comments. I'm a Certified Industrial Hygienist and a Certified Safety Professional and have been in the chemical health and safety field for more years than I care to admit. Before that, I used to work as an analytical chemist. There is a lot of information you have passed on to the list with good intent, but there are several assumptions that you are making that are not substantiated. However, I agree that the purpose of the list is not to get into a deep discussion of health and safety issues. Anyone who would like to do so can contact me off-list. But I do have a concern that many of the comments in the threads have been a bit too casual - that may be my interpretation or reading only - and if so I apologize. But we have identified three unfortunate experiences with nitric acid/ethanol since the discussion started - and I want to do my best to warn those of the potential hazards that are involved before someone gets hurt or has another unfortunate tale to post on the internet. I think we all have the same objective as far as that goes. One last item - you may want to calculate the percent composition of the 3 molar (normal) solution you are recommending and compare the figure to Bretherick's data for instability. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete with the other ones I've got floundering. Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the first time, maybe not. and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there are solubility issues, but these both look like they are well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's the significance of getting these things into ones local envoironment and the general environment (waters, soils, air, etc.). We don't think about this but doing it out on the concrete patio outside
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
hi! cheers! Steve Dunklee http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886 --- On Sat, 1/28/12, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:46 AM Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete with the other ones I've got floundering. Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the first time, maybe not. and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there are solubility issues, but these both look like they are well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's the significance of getting these things into ones local envoironment and the general environment (waters, soils, air, etc.). We don't think about this but doing it out on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and tossing the waste into the immediate area, it will dry and become particulate contaminants which over time the wind will distribute in the lungs of little boys playing there, through the kitchen window, etc. Probably no big deal in most cases, but there is always that one case that something goes terribly wrong. And getting back to the maximum 'permissible' exposure limit (sheesh, now to add residence time, cumulative properties in the body, it's head spinning). Which is why, in this case for a rat which is assumed to react as a human (but may not), at least we can point a finger at the threshold of toxicity, which itself is a a single point determined after half of the subjects have croaked, illustrating that half are just fine whereas it is toxic to half of them at even lower levels, or something along tose lines. As for your other reference of isopropyl vs. ethyl alcohols and explosion hazards, I'm sorry but perhaps someone else has more time to develop this properly vs. this informal discussion forum. If I had time and a full lab, I would start by maing a ternary diagram of the two alcohols and nitric acid, and plot the flash point of the mixture for starters. The information I saw was anecdotal and not rigorous nor very quantitative. However I don't hacve time to spend on this subject any more due to personal circumstances and recommend that you try googling. This is not a case of a proving beyond a reasonable doubt that it is more explosive. However there are enough warnings out there thaty would seem to suggest more violent and higher incidence of isopropanol-HNO3 mixtures than the EtOH analog, since we are talking about personal safety. Clearly Isopropyl alcohol is similar inproperties relating to etching that given the more widespread use in general metallurgy of EtOH, it's the devil we know better I'm convinced of the Isopropanol/ethanol issue all I need to be more vigilant. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't use it if there was some reason to do that. Rather than
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
http://multietch.com/ cheers --- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:52 AM hi! cheers! Steve Dunklee http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886 --- On Sat, 1/28/12, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:46 AM Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete with the other ones I've got floundering. Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the first time, maybe not. and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there are solubility issues, but these both look like they are well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's the significance of getting these things into ones local envoironment and the general environment (waters, soils, air, etc.). We don't think about this but doing it out on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and tossing the waste into the immediate area, it will dry and become particulate contaminants which over time the wind will distribute in the lungs of little boys playing there, through the kitchen window, etc. Probably no big deal in most cases, but there is always that one case that something goes terribly wrong. And getting back to the maximum 'permissible' exposure limit (sheesh, now to add residence time, cumulative properties in the body, it's head spinning). Which is why, in this case for a rat which is assumed to react as a human (but may not), at least we can point a finger at the threshold of toxicity, which itself is a a single point determined after half of the subjects have croaked, illustrating that half are just fine whereas it is toxic to half of them at even lower levels, or something along tose lines. As for your other reference of isopropyl vs. ethyl alcohols and explosion hazards, I'm sorry but perhaps someone else has more time to develop this properly vs. this informal discussion forum. If I had time and a full lab, I would start by maing a ternary diagram of the two alcohols and nitric acid, and plot the flash point of the mixture for starters. The information I saw was anecdotal and not rigorous nor very quantitative. However I don't hacve time to spend on this subject any more due to personal circumstances and recommend that you try googling. This is not a case of a proving beyond a reasonable doubt that it is more explosive. However there are enough warnings out there thaty would seem
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
drying is for, or better yet, get a dessicator or combo oven. Finally I do recognize that Mark is more concerned with preventing someone from taking information from these posts and running off half-cocked to blow their head off. That's reasonable! That is a very good caution to make and I applaud it. The only difference I may have is that I like to have a place to get this sort of information, so why not consider this exactly as presented, a start for someone to learn more and for all to discuss and improve. My thought, by the time anyone goes through all of this, if they were thinking of exoperimenting, they will be infinitely better off than the guy who just pours stuff haphhazardly together without rhyme or reason hoping to strike it lucky. Kindest wishes Doug In the spirit of demystifying all this terrible cloak and dagger stuff surrounding the etching process! -Original Message- From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: Meteorite-list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 8:17 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Doug, Thanks for the comments. I'm a Certified Industrial Hygienist and a Certified Safety Professional and have been in the chemical health and safety field for more years than I care to admit. Before that, I used to work as an analytical chemist. There is a lot of information you have passed on to the list with good intent, but there are several assumptions that you are making that are not substantiated. However, I agree that the purpose of the list is not to get into a deep discussion of health and safety issues. Anyone who would like to do so can contact me off-list. But I do have a concern that many of the comments in the threads have been a bit too casual - that may be my interpretation or reading only - and if so I apologize. But we have identified three unfortunate experiences with nitric acid/ethanol since the discussion started - and I want to do my best to warn those of the potential hazards that are involved before someone gets hurt or has another unfortunate tale to post on the internet. I think we all have the same objective as far as that goes. One last item - you may want to calculate the percent composition of the 3 molar (normal) solution you are recommending and compare the figure to Bretherick's data for instability. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete with the other ones I've got floundering. Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the first time, maybe not. and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there are solubility issues, but these both look like they are well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Hi Doug, I didn't confuse anything - I'll leave that job up to you - and I'll stand by what I stated before. Best, Mark - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark Wow, with the due respect, all that experience under your belt, I really am surprised you confused the difference between threshold toxicity level and toxic activity! But it illustrates the dangers of misinterpretion that are part of life in these sorts of postins when nobody gets exactly right what the other guy says. OK, I'll work on this I feel a response is required (and I reall didn't want to, please excuse my tone but other things happening around me have me very stressed and I am sure the tone is suffering), as you described 'good intent' to clear up what you interpret as too casual. I don't like that label at all, innocent or even if true. Let's fix your easy objections right here and now: I suspect the mechanism of explosive reaction with isopropyl alcohol is unique vs. the others is becasue it reacts with the nitric acid to form the unstable explosive trinitromethane (TNM), the methane analog of trinitrotoluene (TNT). This is a favored reaction when mixing these two compounds, not some pie in the sky idea. Some fireworks are commercially made by mixing isopropanol with nitric and it probably was in the Anarchist's Cookbook, which unfortunately I dropped acid on many years ago and destroyed by mistake. There - likely mechanism hypothesis. Explains violence in explosion. I don't think you'll find that on the MSDS ;-) but it ouigh to be. please don't make me work anymore ;-( Also, so as not to be accused of being casual here is a reference for Isopropyl alcohol being too explosive for using in nital. As I mentioned it is anecdotal even if the world expert of the time said it and it is mindlessly repeated today, but if you combine that with the mechanism we have a workingtheory that makes sense: ANDERSON, Roy L.: A brief discussion of safety in the metallography laboratory, The Microscope, 14, 180 (1964) That author was the guy in charge of saftely I believe at Westinghouse, which was the American pride and joy and gold standard for lab safety. It discusses spontaneous explosion and a death or two when preparing nital with isopropanol and that is good enough for me. Please don't read this as making ethanol any safer; obviosuly it's not but that's a horse of another color. Just becasue something is preferred doesn't mean it is completely safe and that is what I meant by the devil you know or at least that the industry knows. Now, I've provided you not only with the two references you've asked for, but a proposed mechanism as well. As for my 3 N use of nitric acid, your implication is on the wrong path in my case if you suggesting, that it is in the danger zone? Nontheless good to clarify it. This concentration may scrape the lower danger limits of flammability when preparing nital but really it is quite infinitesimal amounts during dilution and mixing with insufficient mass to present any problem, I am quite comfortanle with it. In a well vented open system it presents no problem whatsoever; however if some freak incident happens as is always a real possibility, for the risk averse, they should not do this. Nor anything that involves any risk, not even breath in the extreme. What I think you missed, is that straight 3 N HNO3 is perfect for a reasonably fast etch, though certainly half that concentration can be used. But I hope I suggested to use it WITHOUT the alcohol specifically to avoid any alcohol related problems - it just can't getany simplier to etch in relative safety and get the benefit of a nitric acid etch. Furthermore, if preparing nital with alcohol, unless I've made a gross typo somewhere, let me remind you that when you mix the aqueous 3 N HNO3 with the alcohol to make Nital, the concentration of the acid is proportionally reduced by the greater volume of the resulting mixture. Thus a 50:50 mixture for example of 3 N nitric acid with the alcohol will lower the concentration into safe ranges. The whole slant of my posts were to NOT use concentrated nitric acid for anything since it is completely unnecessary for beginners. I think that wraps that up. Other than to say if someone is not confident based on understanding what they are doing, better not to do it at all. Accidents happen, but that's what hoods, goggles and face masks, and small amounts are for... this is not something to store in bottles making big batches, but rather to minimize reagent use. What is not written in the 'safety manual', is that the vast majority of accidents happen when ethanol is used with concentrated nitric acid, not the rather dilute form. The drawback of my method is it contains water from the dilute acid, but I'll just repeat
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution msds ferric chloride
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886 also may cause laurancite disease in irons or uncontrolled rusting cheers steve --- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:59 AM http://multietch.com/ cheers --- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:52 AM hi! cheers! Steve Dunklee http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886 --- On Sat, 1/28/12, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:46 AM Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete with the other ones I've got floundering. Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the first time, maybe not. and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there are solubility issues, but these both look like they are well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's the significance of getting these things into ones local envoironment and the general environment (waters, soils, air, etc.). We don't think about this but doing it out on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and tossing the waste into the immediate area, it will dry and become particulate contaminants which over time the wind will distribute in the lungs of little boys playing there, through the kitchen window, etc. Probably no big deal in most cases, but there is always that one case that something goes terribly wrong. And getting back to the maximum 'permissible' exposure limit (sheesh, now to add residence time, cumulative properties in the body, it's head spinning). Which is why, in this case for a rat which is assumed to react as a human (but may not), at least we can point a finger at the threshold of toxicity, which itself is a a single point determined after half of the subjects have croaked, illustrating that half are just fine whereas it is toxic to half of them at even lower levels, or something along tose lines. As for your other reference of isopropyl vs. ethyl alcohols and explosion hazards, I'm sorry
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Sure Mark, now that you dropped the respectful line completely, I don't appreciate being baited. One last item - you may want to calculate the percent composition of the 3 molar (normal) solution you are recommending and compare the figure to Bretherick's data for instability. What a complete fool you've made of me taking you seriously and looking by looking up great references + doing a bit of original research into alcohol selection for nital all becasue you decided to be a nitpick. You can say you aren't confused but that doesn't make it it true. You actually offered little more than the above quoted comment in dispute, called yourself a certified expert, provided an admitted dubious link to wikipedia, made me work to provide you references which I did, and then said to be careful with chemicals which had been repeated by all before you joined the thread (well that is worthwhile repeating). So whatever it is you stand by, good job. Doug -Original Message- From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: Meteorite-list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Doug, I didn't confuse anything - I'll leave that job up to you - and I'll stand by what I stated before. Best, Mark - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark Wow, with the due respect, all that experience under your belt, I really am surprised you confused the difference between threshold toxicity level and toxic activity! But it illustrates the dangers of misinterpretion that are part of life in these sorts of postins when nobody gets exactly right what the other guy says. OK, I'll work on this I feel a response is required (and I reall didn't want to, please excuse my tone but other things happening around me have me very stressed and I am sure the tone is suffering), as you described 'good intent' to clear up what you interpret as too casual. I don't like that label at all, innocent or even if true. Let's fix your easy objections right here and now: I suspect the mechanism of explosive reaction with isopropyl alcohol is unique vs. the others is becasue it reacts with the nitric acid to form the unstable explosive trinitromethane (TNM), the methane analog of trinitrotoluene (TNT). This is a favored reaction when mixing these two compounds, not some pie in the sky idea. Some fireworks are commercially made by mixing isopropanol with nitric and it probably was in the Anarchist's Cookbook, which unfortunately I dropped acid on many years ago and destroyed by mistake. There - likely mechanism hypothesis. Explains violence in explosion. I don't think you'll find that on the MSDS ;-) but it ouigh to be. please don't make me work anymore ;-( Also, so as not to be accused of being casual here is a reference for Isopropyl alcohol being too explosive for using in nital. As I mentioned it is anecdotal even if the world expert of the time said it and it is mindlessly repeated today, but if you combine that with the mechanism we have a workingtheory that makes sense: ANDERSON, Roy L.: A brief discussion of safety in the metallography laboratory, The Microscope, 14, 180 (1964) That author was the guy in charge of saftely I believe at Westinghouse, which was the American pride and joy and gold standard for lab safety. It discusses spontaneous explosion and a death or two when preparing nital with isopropanol and that is good enough for me. Please don't read this as making ethanol any safer; obviosuly it's not but that's a horse of another color. Just becasue something is preferred doesn't mean it is completely safe and that is what I meant by the devil you know or at least that the industry knows. Now, I've provided you not only with the two references you've asked for, but a proposed mechanism as well. As for my 3 N use of nitric acid, your implication is on the wrong path in my case if you suggesting, that it is in the danger zone? Nontheless good to clarify it. This concentration may scrape the lower danger limits of flammability when preparing nital but really it is quite infinitesimal amounts during dilution and mixing with insufficient mass to present any problem, I am quite comfortanle with it. In a well vented open system it presents no problem whatsoever; however if some freak incident happens as is always a real possibility, for the risk averse, they should not do this. Nor anything that involves any risk, not even breath in the extreme. What I think you missed, is that straight 3 N HNO3 is perfect for a reasonably fast etch, though certainly half that concentration can be used. But I hope I suggested to use it WITHOUT the alcohol specifically to avoid any alcohol related problems - it just can't getany
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
and then said to be careful with chemicals which had been repeated by all before you joined the thread (well that is worthwhile repeating). And that is the moral of the story. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Sure Mark, now that you dropped the respectful line completely, I don't appreciate being baited. One last item - you may want to calculate the percent composition of the 3 molar (normal) solution you are recommending and compare the figure to Bretherick's data for instability. What a complete fool you've made of me taking you seriously and looking by looking up great references + doing a bit of original research into alcohol selection for nital all becasue you decided to be a nitpick. You can say you aren't confused but that doesn't make it it true. You actually offered little more than the above quoted comment in dispute, called yourself a certified expert, provided an admitted dubious link to wikipedia, made me work to provide you references which I did, and then said to be careful with chemicals which had been repeated by all before you joined the thread (well that is worthwhile repeating). So whatever it is you stand by, good job. Doug -Original Message- From: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com To: Meteorite-list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Doug, I didn't confuse anything - I'll leave that job up to you - and I'll stand by what I stated before. Best, Mark - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hi Mark Wow, with the due respect, all that experience under your belt, I really am surprised you confused the difference between threshold toxicity level and toxic activity! But it illustrates the dangers of misinterpretion that are part of life in these sorts of postins when nobody gets exactly right what the other guy says. OK, I'll work on this I feel a response is required (and I reall didn't want to, please excuse my tone but other things happening around me have me very stressed and I am sure the tone is suffering), as you described 'good intent' to clear up what you interpret as too casual. I don't like that label at all, innocent or even if true. Let's fix your easy objections right here and now: I suspect the mechanism of explosive reaction with isopropyl alcohol is unique vs. the others is becasue it reacts with the nitric acid to form the unstable explosive trinitromethane (TNM), the methane analog of trinitrotoluene (TNT). This is a favored reaction when mixing these two compounds, not some pie in the sky idea. Some fireworks are commercially made by mixing isopropanol with nitric and it probably was in the Anarchist's Cookbook, which unfortunately I dropped acid on many years ago and destroyed by mistake. There - likely mechanism hypothesis. Explains violence in explosion. I don't think you'll find that on the MSDS ;-) but it ouigh to be. please don't make me work anymore ;-( Also, so as not to be accused of being casual here is a reference for Isopropyl alcohol being too explosive for using in nital. As I mentioned it is anecdotal even if the world expert of the time said it and it is mindlessly repeated today, but if you combine that with the mechanism we have a workingtheory that makes sense: ANDERSON, Roy L.: A brief discussion of safety in the metallography laboratory, The Microscope, 14, 180 (1964) That author was the guy in charge of saftely I believe at Westinghouse, which was the American pride and joy and gold standard for lab safety. It discusses spontaneous explosion and a death or two when preparing nital with isopropanol and that is good enough for me. Please don't read this as making ethanol any safer; obviosuly it's not but that's a horse of another color. Just becasue something is preferred doesn't mean it is completely safe and that is what I meant by the devil you know or at least that the industry knows. Now, I've provided you not only with the two references you've asked for, but a proposed mechanism as well. As for my 3 N use of nitric acid, your implication is on the wrong path in my case if you suggesting, that it is in the danger zone? Nontheless good to clarify it. This concentration may scrape the lower danger limits of flammability when preparing nital but really it is quite infinitesimal amounts during dilution and mixing with insufficient mass to present any problem, I am quite comfortanle with it. In a well vented open system it presents no problem whatsoever; however if some freak incident happens
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution msds ferric chloride
errors be kind to correct them as it is late ;-) Kindest wisdhes Doug -Original Message- From: Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com To: markig mar...@westnet.com; Meteorite-list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution msds ferric chloride http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886 also may cause laurancite disease in irons or uncontrolled rusting cheers steve --- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:59 AM http://multietch.com/ cheers --- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Steve Dunklee steve.dunk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:52 AM hi! cheers! Steve Dunklee http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886 --- On Sat, 1/28/12, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:46 AM Hi Mark, Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being 15 times more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no such reference to support the above. What I did write was: Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is carcinogenic at levels 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid etching. There is a huge difference between what you understood and what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't necessarily equate to activity factors. This is because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig up first. Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening yet another research project to compete with the other ones I've got floundering. Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the first time, maybe not. and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there are solubility issues, but these both look like they are well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's the significance of getting these things into ones local envoironment and the general environment (waters, soils, air, etc.). We don't think about this but doing it out on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and tossing the waste into the immediate area, it will dry and become particulate contaminants which over time the wind will distribute in the lungs of little boys playing there, through the kitchen window, etc. Probably no big deal in most cases, but there is always that one case that something goes terribly wrong. And getting back to the maximum 'permissible' exposure limit (sheesh, now to add residence time, cumulative properties in the body, it's head spinning). Which is why, in this case for a rat which is assumed to react as a human (but may not), at least we can point a finger at the threshold of toxicity, which itself is a a single point determined after half of the subjects have croaked, illustrating that half are just fine whereas it is toxic to half of them at even lower levels
[meteorite-list] Etching solution
Hello all. I am going to perform my first etch, of a Sikhote-Alin slice with Nitol, but I was wondering if Isopropyl can be substituted for the Ethanol? Any advise would be apreciated. Thanks Craig __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Sure, just keep in mind when you make your nital that and look for the 99.99% pure alcohol that even concentrated nitric acid is 30% water (same as the low grade isopropanol from the supermarket). -Original Message- From: Craig Moody meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca To: MetList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 7:34 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Hello all. I am going to perform my first etch, of a Sikhote-Alin slice with Nitol, but I was wondering if Isopropyl can be substituted for the Ethanol? Any advise would be apreciated. Thanks Craig __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
Craig, Let me add (the message actually got away before being finished as I write piecemeal and then send) that as far as etching it works fine, but if you look at the series of alcohols, methyl (bp = 65 C), ethyl (bp = 78 C) and isoproply alcohol (bp = 83 C), methyl alcohol (methanol) is by far the safest until you get a lot of experience working with these under a hood. Ethyl nital is mildly flammable in and Isopropyl nital is pretty dangerous since if can blow up in certain conditions that aren't difficult to arrange. Nothing to do with the etching results which are left to trial and error, but rather the safety which I should have mentioned. While all the alcohols work fine, keep in mind two of the factors you are working with are miscibility/penetrant ability and vapor pressure. Vapor pressure you can estimate by boiling point - lower bp is a higher vp. The higher vp the quicker it will evaporate out, so methanol would seem to have the advantage, thought it might form some azeotropes and stay in longer, as could the rest without looking this up (no time at the moment). To the series of three common alcohols you could just add water bp = 100 and consider it almost as a continuim and play with the you like which will influence drying time among other important parameters. I use methanol and later rinse with ethanol (cheaper for me), which is the reverse of good drying practice I would think, but half of the time I just use the diluted acid at 2 - 3 N. Hope that was a better answer, sorry for not finishing the first kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Craig Moody meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca To: mexicodoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 9:42 pm Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Much appreciated Doug, Thank you! I have lots of 99% around. Craig __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
PS - if you don't have a hood or other exhaust, the methyl alcohol could also be dangerous becasue the liver breaks it down into toxins and you will inhale some of it. That's another reason why I use ethanol in the oven, and frankly much more important a reason than saving a few pennies ;-) You can consider the residence time of the toxins in your system to be as long as a week, so if your are doing etxching all day long,and are using methanol nital you definitely need a very well ventilated place, and methanol is sneaky worthy of a CSI episode of an innocent who done it since the syptoms and critical second hit can be stealth and barely naseaous for the first. I know you didn't ask about methyl alcohol, but its good to see the 4 common solcvent benefits/liabilities side by side, at least my take on it. Anyway, you can see why ethyl alcohol iis usually preferred. I just checkethe azeotrophes andisopropyl is only 2.3 C above ethanol mixtures so its ability to remove water would be very similar in the oven, the last thing to look up to decide theoretically approximating the penetrating ability as related to the surface tension of the alcohol (just a guess) what is the bestest alcohol would be to check the surface tension. I just did and all three alcohols are nearly 4 times that of water and within 5% o each other, so I would think that on penetrating ability they are probably all tied and would argue all factors considered ethanol is best since the worst you get is a standard hangover in standard use conditions, and to get a freak explosion from EtOH mixtures with acid is minimal compared to isopropyl. Ferric chloride of course doesn't have the toxicity not flammability, but it stains like heck and with proper respect for the reagents plus a little experience, like everything else the risks are minimized. That's another reason to start with dilute nitric which I highly recommend until you have the bugs worked out of the etching assembly line, ie, method you find best for your work. Good luck, Kindest wshes Doug. -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: meteoritesnorth meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; Meteorite-list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Craig, Let me add (the message actually got away before being finished as I write piecemeal and then send) that as far as etching it works fine, but if you look at the series of alcohols, methyl (bp = 65 C), ethyl (bp = 78 C) and isoproply alcohol (bp = 83 C), methyl alcohol (methanol) is by far the safest until you get a lot of experience working with these under a hood. Ethyl nital is mildly flammable in and Isopropyl nital is pretty dangerous since if can blow up in certain conditions that aren't difficult to arrange. Nothing to do with the etching results which are left to trial and error, but rather the safety which I should have mentioned. While all the alcohols work fine, keep in mind two of the factors you are working with are miscibility/penetrant ability and vapor pressure. Vapor pressure you can estimate by boiling point - lower bp is a higher vp. The higher vp the quicker it will evaporate out, so methanol would seem to have the advantage, thought it might form some azeotropes and stay in longer, as could the rest without looking this up (no time at the moment). To the series of three common alcohols you could just add water bp = 100 and consider it almost as a continuim and play with the you like which will influence drying time among other important parameters. I use methanol and later rinse with ethanol (cheaper for me), which is the reverse of good drying practice I would think, but half of the time I just use the diluted acid at 2 - 3 N. Hope that was a better answer, sorry for not finishing the first kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Craig Moody meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca To: mexicodoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 9:42 pm Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Much appreciated Doug, Thank you! I have lots of 99% around. Craig __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
I don't know all of the details of the etching process, but a word of caution - mixing concentrated nitric acid with ethanol can result in an explosion and a fire. I've witnessed the results of the reaction when someone inadvertently mixed the two in a lab years ago. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: mexicod...@aim.com; meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution PS - if you don't have a hood or other exhaust, the methyl alcohol could also be dangerous becasue the liver breaks it down into toxins and you will inhale some of it. That's another reason why I use ethanol in the oven, and frankly much more important a reason than saving a few pennies ;-) You can consider the residence time of the toxins in your system to be as long as a week, so if your are doing etxching all day long,and are using methanol nital you definitely need a very well ventilated place, and methanol is sneaky worthy of a CSI episode of an innocent who done it since the syptoms and critical second hit can be stealth and barely naseaous for the first. I know you didn't ask about methyl alcohol, but its good to see the 4 common solcvent benefits/liabilities side by side, at least my take on it. Anyway, you can see why ethyl alcohol iis usually preferred. I just checkethe azeotrophes andisopropyl is only 2.3 C above ethanol mixtures so its ability to remove water would be very similar in the oven, the last thing to look up to decide theoretically approximating the penetrating ability as related to the surface tension of the alcohol (just a guess) what is the bestest alcohol would be to check the surface tension. I just did and all three alcohols are nearly 4 times that of water and within 5% o each other, so I would think that on penetrating ability they are probably all tied and would argue all factors considered ethanol is best since the worst you get is a standard hangover in standard use conditions, and to get a freak explosion from EtOH mixtures with acid is minimal compared to isopropyl. Ferric chloride of course doesn't have the toxicity not flammability, but it stains like heck and with proper respect for the reagents plus a little experience, like everything else the risks are minimized. That's another reason to start with dilute nitric which I highly recommend until you have the bugs worked out of the etching assembly line, ie, method you find best for your work. Good luck, Kindest wshes Doug. -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: meteoritesnorth meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca; Meteorite-list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Craig, Let me add (the message actually got away before being finished as I write piecemeal and then send) that as far as etching it works fine, but if you look at the series of alcohols, methyl (bp = 65 C), ethyl (bp = 78 C) and isoproply alcohol (bp = 83 C), methyl alcohol (methanol) is by far the safest until you get a lot of experience working with these under a hood. Ethyl nital is mildly flammable in and Isopropyl nital is pretty dangerous since if can blow up in certain conditions that aren't difficult to arrange. Nothing to do with the etching results which are left to trial and error, but rather the safety which I should have mentioned. While all the alcohols work fine, keep in mind two of the factors you are working with are miscibility/penetrant ability and vapor pressure. Vapor pressure you can estimate by boiling point - lower bp is a higher vp. The higher vp the quicker it will evaporate out, so methanol would seem to have the advantage, thought it might form some azeotropes and stay in longer, as could the rest without looking this up (no time at the moment). To the series of three common alcohols you could just add water bp = 100 and consider it almost as a continuim and play with the you like which will influence drying time among other important parameters. I use methanol and later rinse with ethanol (cheaper for me), which is the reverse of good drying practice I would think, but half of the time I just use the diluted acid at 2 - 3 N. Hope that was a better answer, sorry for not finishing the first kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Craig Moody meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca To: mexicodoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 9:42 pm Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching solution Much appreciated Doug, Thank you! I have lots of 99% around. Craig __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
Hi Bernd and all, Nitric acid is bad stuff. It will stain your skin and should only be used with protective gloves and googles. It is a cancer causing material and extream caution should be used at all times with this acid.It also tends to explode when mixed with different items. Other than that, it is great for etching meteorites. I have never any problems with nitric acid. For me it work excelent instead of other methods. -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) 567667 [ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ] --AL Mitterling Quoting Bernd V. Pauli bernd.pa...@paulinet.de: Michael kindly wrote: Very nice video! Hello Michael and List, Although it has been said many times before, we should put potential newbies, who would like to etch an iron meteorite with nitol, on the alert: Please, be careful and do wear protective gloves and goggles, because, and let me now quote from our late R. Norton's Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites, p. 255: When mixing ethanol/nitric acid solution great care should be taken to see that the nitric acid is always poured *into the alcohol beaker, never the reverse! This prevents splattering of the acid as it is applied to the working solution. (Working with concentrated nitric acid is dangerous and requires handling with extreme care.)* Wishing you a good night from late night Germany, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlEEfzH64w Please enjoy my new movie. Its large 28kg endpiece of Morasko etched in real time. Specimen from Tomasz Jakubowski collection. -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) 567667 [ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ] __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
Hello Marcin, Thank you very much for that experience! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlEEfzH64w I've never seen the etching of an iron in real time ... only the descriptions and pictures in books and treatises on the subject. Very, very instructive!!! I even understood a few words like Morasko, crystals, minimal, and Tomasz Jakubowski ... I think ;-) Thank you once again, Very much appreciated, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
I agree with Bernd, must have been a phantastic experience, Marcin. Thanks for sharing it with us. Somehow alchemistic, eh? I also understood: Morasko - new classification :-) Best, Matthias - Original Message - From: Bernd V. Pauli bernd.pa...@paulinet.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 5:56 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO Hello Marcin, Thank you very much for that experience! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlEEfzH64w I've never seen the etching of an iron in real time ... only the descriptions and pictures in books and treatises on the subject. Very, very instructive!!! I even understood a few words like Morasko, crystals, minimal, and Tomasz Jakubowski ... I think ;-) Thank you once again, Very much appreciated, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6304 (20110718) __ E-Mail wurde geprüft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
Hi, Marcin. Thanks for sharing the video. If you think that etch was fast you should try some ferric chloride; this 7 minute etch would have probably taken less than 60 seconds! Regards, Michael in so. Cal On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Marcin Cimala mar...@meteoryt.net wrote: Thanks all. This is good to show how the whole etching go in real time to someone who never tryed this. And this size of specimen. I use normall 20% solution, and efect was very nice and fast. Outside in sun etched surface was beautifull. We had a lot of fun joking in the background. Too bad You cant understand : -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) 567667 [ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ] Hi Marcin and List, Thanks for sharing the video! The time-lapse part at the end was very cool. :) Best regards, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 7/18/11, Bernd V. Pauli bernd.pa...@paulinet.de wrote: Hello Marcin, Thank you very much for that experience! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlEEfzH64w I've never seen the etching of an iron in real time ... only the descriptions and pictures in books and treatises on the subject. Very, very instructive!!! I even understood a few words like Morasko, crystals, minimal, and Tomasz Jakubowski ... I think ;-) Thank you once again, Very much appreciated, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
Very nice video! Regards, Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org - Original Message - From: Marcin Cimala mar...@meteoryt.net Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 08:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlEEfzH64w Please enjoy my new movie. Its large 28kg endpiece of Morasko etched in real time. Specimen from Tomasz Jakubowski collection. -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) 567667 [ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ] __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
Michael kindly wrote: Very nice video! Hello Michael and List, Although it has been said many times before, we should put potential newbies, who would like to etch an iron meteorite with nitol, on the alert: Please, be careful and do wear protective gloves and goggles, because, and let me now quote from our late R. Norton's Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites, p. 255: When mixing ethanol/nitric acid solution great care should be taken to see that the nitric acid is always poured *into the alcohol beaker, never the reverse! This prevents splattering of the acid as it is applied to the working solution. (Working with concentrated nitric acid is dangerous and requires handling with extreme care.)* Wishing you a good night from late night Germany, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
Bernd: You would have made an excellent chemist. Retired Chemist Dave --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Bernd V. Pauli bernd.pa...@paulinet.de wrote: From: Bernd V. Pauli bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 6:48 PM Michael kindly wrote: Very nice video! Hello Michael and List, Although it has been said many times before, we should put potential newbies, who would like to etch an iron meteorite with nitol, on the alert: Please, be careful and do wear protective gloves and goggles, because, and let me now quote from our late R. Norton's Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites, p. 255: When mixing ethanol/nitric acid solution great care should be taken to see that the nitric acid is always poured *into the alcohol beaker, never the reverse! This prevents splattering of the acid as it is applied to the working solution. (Working with concentrated nitric acid is dangerous and requires handling with extreme care.)* Wishing you a good night from late night Germany, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching of large MORASKO
Hi Bernd and all, Nitric acid is bad stuff. It will stain your skin and should only be used with protective gloves and googles. It is a cancer causing material and extream caution should be used at all times with this acid.It also tends to explode when mixed with different items. Other than that, it is great for etching meteorites. --AL Mitterling Quoting Bernd V. Pauli bernd.pa...@paulinet.de: Michael kindly wrote: Very nice video! Hello Michael and List, Although it has been said many times before, we should put potential newbies, who would like to etch an iron meteorite with nitol, on the alert: Please, be careful and do wear protective gloves and goggles, because, and let me now quote from our late R. Norton's Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites, p. 255: When mixing ethanol/nitric acid solution great care should be taken to see that the nitric acid is always poured *into the alcohol beaker, never the reverse! This prevents splattering of the acid as it is applied to the working solution. (Working with concentrated nitric acid is dangerous and requires handling with extreme care.)* Wishing you a good night from late night Germany, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching with Ferric Chloride
Hi All, Following on from a recent discussion I am wondering if anyone has had experience of etching pallasites with Ferric Chloride? Apparently there is a risk of leaving dark staining on irons if not washed promptly, but was wondering if there was any danger of staining the olivines in a pallasite. Has anyone on the list tried it out? I would be grateful for any advice. Graham, UK. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching an Iron Meteorite (Meteorite Mag)
Ooops! I've already received several emails and forgot to add a link to subscribe.. Here's the link to meteorite magazine Here's the link http://meteoritemag.uark.edu/ Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona http://www.mr-meteorite.com Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching an Iron Meteorite (Meteorite Mag)
Hi all, I posted a youtube video on etching a few months ago. Since then I've received so many emails regarding etching. Many of you want to know all of the specifics that I left out of the video. I received my Meteorite Mag. today and was surprised to see that my article on etching is included. If you subscribe to meteorite magazine and want to know all about etching, you're all set. For everyone that would like to know the In's and outs on etching that has not subscribed, now is a good time to do so as it is pretty in depth.. In fact it is the written version of the video - with all the details. Thanks, Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona http://www.mr-meteorite.com Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching an Iron Meteorite (Meteorite Mag)
REMEMBER -ALWAYS AD ACID TO WATER- NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. ask anita- she can tell what happens- you all kinds a firetrux and stuff w/ guys in DEVO suits and what not. --- Ruben Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I posted a youtube video on etching a few months ago. Since then I've received so many emails regarding etching. Many of you want to know all of the specifics that I left out of the video. I received my Meteorite Mag. today and was surprised to see that my article on etching is included. If you subscribe to meteorite magazine and want to know all about etching, you're all set. For everyone that would like to know the In's and outs on etching that has not subscribed, now is a good time to do so as it is pretty in depth.. In fact it is the written version of the video - with all the details. Thanks, Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona http://www.mr-meteorite.com Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Video made top 20 on youtube!
Hi all, Just wanted to thank you all for putting my Etching an Iron Meteorite Video in the top 100 in three catagories, and top 20 in one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmi5qZgIFQ Honors for This Video: #82 - Most Viewed (Today) - Howto DIY #83 - Top Rated (Today) - Howto DIY #20 - Top Favorites (Today) - Howto DIY Feel free to rate, and save to favorite's after viewing! Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona http://www.mr-meteorite.com Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Video!
Hi all, I just uploaded a cool Meteorite Etching video on youtube. If you've never seen how it is done take a look! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmi5qZgIFQ Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona http://www.mr-meteorite.com Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Video!
Ruben, I really like your kitchen chemistry approach to etching iron slices - short, sweet and very informative. Your meteorite hunting videos are great too. Give me a call if you'd like to borrow a wireless microphone for your projects. Best, John Gwilliam At 06:37 PM 8/22/2007, Ruben Garcia wrote: Hi all, I just uploaded a cool Meteorite Etching video on youtube. If you've never seen how it is done take a look! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmi5qZgIFQ Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona http://www.mr-meteorite.com Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Estherville - Addendum
Pinnaroo is another mesosiderite whose metal shows Widmanstätten structure as it also has a relatively high nickel content of 9.66% Cheers, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Estherville
Hello Mike and List! I just obtained a nice slice with a bleb about 20mm in diameter and we etched this and a faint pattern is seen. Is it possible that this is a Widmanstätten pattern? See NORTON O.R. (2002) The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Meteorites (Cambridge University Press, p. 158): Remarkably some of the larger metal nodules when polished and etched show Widmanstätten structure typical of octahedrites. O.R. Norton also mentions a nickel content of between 7 and 10%, [which] is the nickel content of octahedrite meteorites. So no need to be surprised as Estherville has a nickel content of 9.0%. I am not sure if the metal melted and cooled properly to allow the kamacite and taenite to separate McSWEEN H.Y. (1999) Meteorites and Their Parent Planets (Cambridge University Press, Glossary, p. 212): The resulting mixture was buried deeply, so that slow cooling produced a Widmanstätten pattern in the metal. The cooling rates for mesosiderites .. are exceptionally slow, less than half a degree per million years. Best Estherville wishes, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Estherville
Hello List! Anyone ever etch Estherville blebs? I just obtained a nice slice with a bleb about 20mm in diameter and we etched this and a faint pattern is seen. Is it possible that this is a Widmanstätten pattern? I am not sure if the metal melted and cooled properly to allow the kamacite and taenite to separtate. Cheers, Mike Tettenborn Owen Sound, Ontario __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Estherville
i have a 70 slice i bought form j. sinclair- it etched just like anything elseand never rusted, etc.,- very basic. just rinse well. etch definitely adds to the effect. i will be gradually switching over to yahoo mail (it has 100 FREE megs of storage). please cc to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "tett" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.comSubject: [meteorite-list] Etching EsthervilleDate: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:59:22 -0400Hello List!Anyone ever etch Estherville blebs?I just obtained a nice slice with a bleb about 20mm in diameter and we etched this and a faint pattern is seen. Is it possible that this is a Widmanstätten pattern? I am not sure if the metal melted and cooled properly to allow the kamacite and taenite to separtate.Cheers,Mike TettenbornOwen Sound, Ontario__Meteorite-list mailing listMeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.comhttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now. Its free. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching in Ferric Chloride?
Can anyone point me to a site with how to do this? Thanks, Matt Morgan __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
From an earlier post, [Widmanstatten patterns] can happen in wrought iron alloys used for heat treating fixtures, aluminum alloys, copper alloys and very commonly in titanium alloys. It can also happen in HSLA alloys when improperly heat treated. While I personally dont have any pictures, I Googled it and came up with these: In iron alloys http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2002/widmanstatten.html http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodtms.nsf/ProductLookupItemID/MMTA-0001- 15/$FILE/MMTA-0001-15F.pdf?OpenElement http://metals.about.com/library/bldef-Widmanstatten-Structure.htm In Titanium http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai? http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecordmetadataPrefix=htmliden tifier=ADA070745 verb=getRecordmetadataPrefix=htmlidentifier=ADA070745 http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2000/C9/lecture3.pdf http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL_udi=B6TXD-4K719V7- 1_user=10_coverDate=07%2F25%2F2006_rdoc=1_fmt=_orig=search_sort=d view=c_acct=C50221_version=1_urlVersion=0_userid=10md5=8f512a19 205c0c408e41e0acd72c51b1 _udi=B6TXD-4K719V7-1_user=10_coverDate=07%2F25%2F2006_rdoc=1_fmt=_ orig=search_sort=dview=c_acct=C50221_version=1_urlVersion=0_us erid=10md5=8f512a19205c0c408e41e0acd72c51b1 http://www.springerlink.com/content/hm8447m741171048/ In copper http://www.copper.org/applications/cuni/corrosion_resistance_ni_alum_bro nze.html Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 http://www.nepra.com www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://www.rocketmaterials.org/ http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Kitt Deyarmin Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:31 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites You said it was incorrect to state that only meteorites exhibited a Widmanstatten pattern. What other materials exhibit a Widmanstatten pattern? Do you have pictures? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
You must have misread my post. I did not say high carbon steels had Widmanstatten structures. To the contrary, the alloys I listed do not have any carbon at all. The only steel I listed was HSLA and I mentioned that it is difficult to get Widmanstatten patterns in them. Pearlite is not the same as Widmanstatten, nor is martensite or bainite. Pearlite is a structure made of iron and iron carbide and only found in heat treated steels with carbon contents over 0.20% by weight. To confirm this, all you need to do is ask a professional metallurgist, but then thats what I am. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mr EMan Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:09 PM To: Gerald Flaherty; Sterling K. Webb; Drake; meteorite- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Dear Jerry, Why do you say WOW!? just WOW? I enjoy a good discussion like everyone else so imagine my disappointment in opening posts that just say Wow or Cool or Gosh... It is better to interact like this is a message board and not a chat room, in my opinion. If we all do so it will knock my mailbox down to under 200 messages a day. Thank you. Now to the discussion at hand. So while some were moved to awe at this alleged revelation, the fact remains to be proven that the pearlite/ferrite/cementite patterns in high carbon steel are correctly identified as Widmanstatten patterns proper. They are micro structures and not visible ASAIK to the naked eye. Plus they are artifacts of human industry. We have yet to have Drake confirm that these are other occurrences of Widmanstatten patterns found in other than meteorites. Elton --- Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WOW! Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
You said it was incorrect to state that only meteorites exhibited a Widmanstatten pattern. What other materials exhibit a Widmanstatten pattern? Do you have pictures? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
WOW! Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Zero. You have to fake at least pallasites for the fraud becoming profitable q.e.d. Would be nice to have a photo of the described products, if they show any similarity to Widmathompsopatures. (Cast irons display dendritic patterns). Martin, Frozen in Tucson. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 00:43 An: Drake; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
While it's true that the Widmanstatten pattern was first seen in meteorites, it is fairly commonly seen in terrestrial metal alloys. Metals are crystals when in solid form, and undergo allotropic phase changes when heated and cooled. Adding different metals together form alloys and these solutions form new phases. Even these new phases undergo phase changes when heated and cooled. So just having two metals in solution can create several different phases. Each of these phases have different melting points, solidification points, and temperatures at which these phase changes take place. All this is like water and salt... Water has a boiling point and a freezing point. Ice, liquid water, and steam are all phases. If you add salt, the boiling point is lowered and the freezing point is lowered. This is just a quick example of how one thing can change the phases of another. In metals its exactly the same thing, except there are actually several phases that exist when the metal alloy is in solid form. The Widmanstatten pattern is a geometrical pattern resulting from the formation of a new phase along certain crystallographic planes of the parent solid solution. The orientation of the lattice in the new phase are crystalographically related to the lattice in the parent phase. This can happen in wrought iron alloys used for heat treating fixtures, aluminum alloys, copper alloys and very commonly in titanium alloys. It can also happen in HSLA alloys when improperly heat treated. Sorry for rambling. I am in no way a meteorite expert, but I'm very passionate about metallurgy. I have looked at the Nantan and the Campo I have in my metallurgical laboratory. There is no way that some of the things I've seen could be made on earth in less than 4 billion years. If you want a quick lesson in metallurgy, I wrote a paper explaining some of the cool metallurgical stuff. http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/metallurgy_faq_v11.htm Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sterling K. Webb Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 6:43 PM To: Drake; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
I agree, Zero. You could make nice Widmanstatten patterns in some stainless steel alloys like 303, the giant crystals I've seen would be virtually impossible and very expensive. The dendrites seen in cast irons are the crystals growing along the crystallographic planes as the metal solidifies. This is basically the same property in metals that also form the Widmanstatten patterns. It's also why snowflakes, and gemstones have their unique shapes; they are all growing crystals taking on the shape of their crystallographic planes, or atomic arrangement. (ie, salt is always a cube and an amethyst is always a tetrahedron.) Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:21 PM To: 'Sterling K. Webb'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Zero. You have to fake at least pallasites for the fraud becoming profitable q.e.d. Would be nice to have a photo of the described products, if they show any similarity to Widmathompsopatures. (Cast irons display dendritic patterns). Martin, Frozen in Tucson. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 00:43 An: Drake; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Here a link with micropics of diverse etched steels ect. http://www.georgesbasement.com/Microstructures/Unknowns/Iron-Based/Specimen0 1.htm Just click on go to your analysis of Specimen n, to get more. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Drake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 01:54 An: 'Martin Altmann'; 'Sterling K. Webb'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites I agree, Zero. You could make nice Widmanstatten patterns in some stainless steel alloys like 303, the giant crystals I've seen would be virtually impossible and very expensive. The dendrites seen in cast irons are the crystals growing along the crystallographic planes as the metal solidifies. This is basically the same property in metals that also form the Widmanstatten patterns. It's also why snowflakes, and gemstones have their unique shapes; they are all growing crystals taking on the shape of their crystallographic planes, or atomic arrangement. (ie, salt is always a cube and an amethyst is always a tetrahedron.) Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:21 PM To: 'Sterling K. Webb'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Zero. You have to fake at least pallasites for the fraud becoming profitable q.e.d. Would be nice to have a photo of the described products, if they show any similarity to Widmathompsopatures. (Cast irons display dendritic patterns). Martin, Frozen in Tucson. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 00:43 An: Drake; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Dear Jerry, Why do you say WOW!? just WOW? I enjoy a good discussion like everyone else so imagine my disappointment in opening posts that just say Wow or Cool or Gosh... It is better to interact like this is a message board and not a chat room, in my opinion. If we all do so it will knock my mailbox down to under 200 messages a day. Thank you. Now to the discussion at hand. So while some were moved to awe at this alleged revelation, the fact remains to be proven that the pearlite/ferrite/cementite patterns in high carbon steel are correctly identified as Widmanstatten patterns proper. They are micro structures and not visible ASAIK to the naked eye. Plus they are artifacts of human industry. We have yet to have Drake confirm that these are other occurrences of Widmanstatten patterns found in other than meteorites. Elton --- Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WOW! Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Dear Sterling; Why don't you ask the chinese? They seem to be the most interested in faking meteorites. Dave F. a non tucsonisti Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Techniques
Hi Drake, Welcome to the list. I'm sure you will have a plethora of great information on etching. My methods? So far, buy them already etched. :) Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com On 29 Jan 2007 at 20:27, Drake wrote: As a newbie, both to this list and meteorites, I want to thank everyone. Im on several lists but this one is the most easy-going one. You people have a great community here! I feel compelled to share my recent involvement into meteorites. I have been a metallurgist for one of the largest defense contractors in the US for almost 10 years. I have two hobbies; high power rockets and astronomy. I build 100-pound rockets that go well over 2 miles high, and have built an award-winning 20 f5 telescope. (Are you seeing a theme here?) It was only recently that I realized how blatantly obvious it should have been for me to collect meteorites. (particularly iron meteorites!) So, I bought a Nantan and a Compo meteorite to play with. I have a full metallurgical laboratory at my disposal with everything a meteorite lover could ever dream of. from sectioning equipment, to grinding/polishing equipment, to digital microscopes with bright field/darkfield, polarizers and differential interference contrast prisms. Ive been surfing the web for various etchants but am not having much luck. Ive cut a few sections and etched them using my own etchants used for Fe-Ni alloys, even ones with picric acid and hydrofluoric acid. I just cant get as much contrast as I see pictured on websites. Can some of you help me with some various etching techniques? Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Techniques
As a newbie, both to this list and meteorites, I want to thank everyone. Im on several lists but this one is the most easy-going one. You people have a great community here! I feel compelled to share my recent involvement into meteorites. I have been a metallurgist for one of the largest defense contractors in the US for almost 10 years. I have two hobbies; high power rockets and astronomy. I build 100-pound rockets that go well over 2 miles high, and have built an award-winning 20 f5 telescope. (Are you seeing a theme here?) It was only recently that I realized how blatantly obvious it should have been for me to collect meteorites. (particularly iron meteorites!) So, I bought a Nantan and a Compo meteorite to play with. I have a full metallurgical laboratory at my disposal with everything a meteorite lover could ever dream of. from sectioning equipment, to grinding/polishing equipment, to digital microscopes with bright field/darkfield, polarizers and differential interference contrast prisms. Ive been surfing the web for various etchants but am not having much luck. Ive cut a few sections and etched them using my own etchants used for Fe-Ni alloys, even ones with picric acid and hydrofluoric acid. I just cant get as much contrast as I see pictured on websites. Can some of you help me with some various etching techniques? Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Nickel Iron Meteorites[and how to etch and polish]
Hi, Dave and listees I have the same question as yours, Dave. What kind of acid the advanced meteo-collctors use to etch Iron-Nickel meteorites, such as Nantans, Campo Del Cielo? Someone has these pieces presenting beautiful surfaces, it's amazing! By the way, Dave, have you had the answer off-list? Any tips would be greatly appreciated! Merry Christmas to all Regards Miss Ma Lan Beijing, China --- David Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering what kind of acid you use to etch meteorites? -Dave H. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Nickel Iron Meteorites
I was wondering what kind of acid you use to etch meteorites? -Dave H. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Neumann lines
Hi again folks, It has been a while, but, correct me if I am wrong, I remember cutting up a few Henbury Irons and polishing and etching them, a few that I left in my etchant for way to long ended up looking very much like these pics. Is an over etch the standard way to get these Neumann lines to become visible? Cheers, Kevin Forbes, VK3UKF. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Etching Neumann lines
No, over-etching doesn't help. Btw. Neumann lines are also quite common in octahedrites, I know a wizard, who brings them out in almost all irons and even in mesosiderites..at least if there are Neumann lines inherent. But his recipes and elixirs are a secret. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Kevin Forbes Gesendet: Montag, 11. September 2006 17:37 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Etching Neumann lines Hi again folks, It has been a while, but, correct me if I am wrong, I remember cutting up a few Henbury Irons and polishing and etching them, a few that I left in my etchant for way to long ended up looking very much like these pics. Is an over etch the standard way to get these Neumann lines to become visible? Cheers, Kevin Forbes, VK3UKF. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Etching Neumann lines
Hi Kevin, Martin, List, as Martin mentioned over etching does not help, this does never help, just makes the iron more getting grey in shorter time. You more have to find the optimal point. But when we think about how much possibilities how to etch, it's easy to see that there are more ways to get the right point. How much acid? 2.7% ? 5.5%? 6.8%? just examples How Long? 1 min? 5 min ? 20 min? What temperature ? 10°C ? 20°C ? 40°C please not much more, it`s getting dangerous . And not to forget the possibilities to change the parameter during the etching, starting with 3% going on with 5% etc. So if somebody start etching iron meteorites,you have to make long tests what brings you to the right result. Every Iron meteorite is different and they are not interested in how the humans can etch them right, so there is notthe way how to etch, You have to learn it and the only teacher you will have, is your own experience ,its called learning by doing. By the way I'm not the guy Martin talked about, he is Mr Pilskie from Poland, the best etcher Martin and I have ever seen. And The etchings from my Boguslavka pictures are still the one from Serge, he did such a fine job, that it just would have possible damaged the remaining fusion crust. Best Regards Andi -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Kevin Forbes Gesendet: Montag, 11. September 2006 17:37 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Etching Neumann lines Hi again folks, It has been a while, but, correct me if I am wrong, I remember cutting up a few Henbury Irons and polishing and etching them, a few that I left in my etchant for way to long ended up looking very much like these pics. Is an over etch the standard way to get these Neumann lines to become visible? Cheers, Kevin Forbes, VK3UKF. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Meteorites
I have read a lot of info about this but I still have a few unanswered questions. If there is anyone on this list that is really experienced with this process, and if you would mind ifI call you please contact me off list with your number and a good time to call. Thanks __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solutionfrom radio shack
Hi Bob, Well to be honest I just shove a few table spoonfuls into a pint of distilled water, (i.e. unchlorinated water) and stir. The best stuff to use really though, is 'Sodium Hydroxide', which is sold in hardware stores to unblock drains etc. otherwise known as caustic soda, (at least here in the UK..) this can be added to industrial alcohol, (it will dissolve but it takes hours!) or you could use sodium hydroxide with water, but you must dry the specimen well, in a warm place for a number of hours then coat the iron in plenty of gun oil, (which contains a rust inhibitor). It's not perfect, but it works, etching anything is a destructive process. Best Mark -Original Message- From: Bob King [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:01 AM To: mark ford Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solutionfrom radio shack Hi Mark, I plan on doing some etching with ferric chloride and have read your postings with interest. Tell me though, how do you prepare the sodium bicarbonate solution? Thanks! Bob Subject:RE: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solutionfromradio shack Date sent: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:32:09 - From: mark ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Ferric Chloride has been used for many years for etching meteorites. (I personally etched a small Canyon Diablo in about 1985 and it has never shown any signs of rust). Iv'e even etched campos in Ferric, and they are fine too. You must neutralize the iron after etching however, in Sodium hydroxide solution (caustic soda) or Sodium bicarbonate soln.) It is important to clean the meteorite and remove all traces of etchant. And etch as quickly as possible (I.E concentrated and warm) so that the solution doesn't have time to penetrate into the meteorite. Nitric acid is used for etching as well, this has it's own problems with stability, In either case, as long as you take care to neutralize it, then It should give no problems. Personally I have found Ferric Chloride to give a far better quality of etch, even under mag it is noticeable. Best Mark -Original Message- From: Göran Axelsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:17 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solutionfrom radio shack I thought that the general idea was chlorine and iron makes rusting meteorites. I wouldn't use it myself. I used some to etch circuit boards in my youth and if you drop some grains of iron chloride it will pull moisture from the air until it's completely dissolved. If you dip an iron into FeCl solution it will be drawn into dry fractures and surfaces and to get it out without electrolysis is probably really slow work. Am I wrong in my speculations? Anyone tested this already? I use the alcohol and nitric acid etch. Not only because I have it handy, but also to avoid chlorine contaminations. /Göran harlan trammell wrote: i thought i'd try it on a cheap iron- anybody got any pointers on swabbing, rinsing , waiting, etc.?! i will be gradually switching over to yahoo mail (it has 100 FREE megs of storage). please cc to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solutionfrom radio shack
Ferric Chloride has been used for many years for etching meteorites. (I personally etched a small Canyon Diablo in about 1985 and it has never shown any signs of rust). Iv'e even etched campos in Ferric, and they are fine too. You must neutralize the iron after etching however, in Sodium hydroxide solution (caustic soda) or Sodium bicarbonate soln.) It is important to clean the meteorite and remove all traces of etchant. And etch as quickly as possible (I.E concentrated and warm) so that the solution doesn't have time to penetrate into the meteorite. Nitric acid is used for etching as well, this has it's own problems with stability, In either case, as long as you take care to neutralize it, then It should give no problems. Personally I have found Ferric Chloride to give a far better quality of etch, even under mag it is noticeable. Best Mark -Original Message- From: Göran Axelsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:17 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solutionfrom radio shack I thought that the general idea was chlorine and iron makes rusting meteorites. I wouldn't use it myself. I used some to etch circuit boards in my youth and if you drop some grains of iron chloride it will pull moisture from the air until it's completely dissolved. If you dip an iron into FeCl solution it will be drawn into dry fractures and surfaces and to get it out without electrolysis is probably really slow work. Am I wrong in my speculations? Anyone tested this already? I use the alcohol and nitric acid etch. Not only because I have it handy, but also to avoid chlorine contaminations. /Göran harlan trammell wrote: i thought i'd try it on a cheap iron- anybody got any pointers on swabbing, rinsing , waiting, etc.?! i will be gradually switching over to yahoo mail (it has 100 FREE megs of storage). please cc to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solutionfrom radio shack
thanks for the infor on etching with ferric chloride. nitric is simply unavailable. i will be gradually switching over to yahoo mail (it has 100 FREE megs of storage). please cc to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Göran Axelsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solutionfrom radio shack Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:16:33 +0100 I thought that the general idea was chlorine and iron makes rusting meteorites. I wouldn't use it myself. I used some to etch circuit boards in my youth and if you drop some grains of iron chloride it will pull moisture from the air until it's completely dissolved. If you dip an iron into FeCl solution it will be drawn into dry fractures and surfaces and to get it out without electrolysis is probably really slow work. Am I wrong in my speculations? Anyone tested this already? I use the alcohol and nitric acid etch. Not only because I have it handy, but also to avoid chlorine contaminations. /Göran harlan trammell wrote: i thought i'd try it on a cheap iron- anybody got any pointers on swabbing, rinsing , waiting, etc.?! i will be gradually switching over to yahoo mail (it has 100 FREE megs of storage). please cc to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solution from radio shack
i thought i'd try it on a cheap iron- anybody got any pointers on swabbing, rinsing , waiting, etc.?! i will be gradually switching over to yahoo mail (it has 100 FREE megs of storage). please cc to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] etching irons with ferric chloride solution from radio shack
I thought that the general idea was chlorine and iron makes rusting meteorites. I wouldn't use it myself. I used some to etch circuit boards in my youth and if you drop some grains of iron chloride it will pull moisture from the air until it's completely dissolved. If you dip an iron into FeCl solution it will be drawn into dry fractures and surfaces and to get it out without electrolysis is probably really slow work. Am I wrong in my speculations? Anyone tested this already? I use the alcohol and nitric acid etch. Not only because I have it handy, but also to avoid chlorine contaminations. /Göran harlan trammell wrote: i thought i'd try it on a cheap iron- anybody got any pointers on swabbing, rinsing , waiting, etc.?! i will be gradually switching over to yahoo mail (it has 100 FREE megs of storage). please cc to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching processes and variants : Message from Zelimir Gabelica
Dear list, For some reason, Zelimir Gabelica is not able to transfer you the following message from his Belgian computer (his 3 attempts, since Dec 22, were unsuccessful). He is therefore asking me to forward you its copy, assuming I might have more success with my computer. I hope hat you could read it safely soon. Pierre-Marie PELE -- Hello Mark, Adam, Jörn, list, Thanks to all for your interesting comments about the etching processes and variants. Here I wish to add a couple of tips, hoping it can help. 1) Mark F wrote: At WWU we had a once nice Nantan that was showing signs of rapid corrosion and we got a acrylic container and filled it with argon for a few seconds with the top ready to put into place. It had sealing grommets so would be air-tight and we believe its secure enough to keep the argon in. Nitrogen is another gas that would work I believe but am not sure. Don't know how the mixing of gases to make new compounds will affect the Nantan over time, but at least the salty Bellingham, WA air cannot get to it any longer. Both nitrogen and argon are inert (non oxidative) gases but argon has the advantage to be heavier than air (and thus nitrogen). You can therefore pour it in a container (from the top, like an invisible liquid) and, because of its higher density, he will get at the bottom of tha flask/container and expell the air (nitrogen) upwards. At the limit, you can keep argon at the bottom even without plugging the flask (provided its stays immobile). But just don't use argon if the aperture of your container is at the bottom (for obvious reasons). On the other hand, physical mixing of nitrogen and air is tricky because of the quasi same densities of oxygen (about 20% as admixture in the air) and nitrogen (80%). 2) Adam wrote: After polishing the specimen clean it using 99.9% pure ethyl alcohol in a hypersonic cleaner. Remove it from the bath and wipe it immediately with a lint free cloth. Then slowly heat the specimen to drive off any remaining liquids. We use an infrared heat lamp with air circulating around the specimen to drive off excess moisture. We take the specimen up to 150 degrees Fahrenheit for 40 minutes and then cool it down slowly. If the alcohol is left to air dry it has a tendency to attract water so it should always be heated... Here I can add an old tip that chemists use to remove water from precipitates (powder). We use to wash the water impregnated solid (powder...) with ethanol and then wash with di-ethyl ether (light liquid easy to find at any chemist's, though its breathing should be avoided). Di-ethyl ether, as totally miscible with ethanol, will remove its last traces through dissolution (as ethanol is the major component) and ether can then be far more easier removed through evaporation, even at ambient temperature, as it is very volatile. In short, ethanol removes minor traces of water and ether then removes traces of ethanol. This avoids heating the meteoite. Or, if you heat it, you can then use a lower temperature and heat for a short time). Best wishes, Zelimir Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching perfected!
Hello List, I am done playing around with etching art! But, this CD turned out to look like art! I learned a thing or two about etching with all my trials errors the last month and tried it on this piece. No etched pictures, just on nice Canyon Diablo! I like it anyways! : ) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=6500225936ssPageNam e=STRK:MESE:IT Thanks, Tom peregrineflier IMCA 6168 http://www.frontiernet.net/~peregrineflier/Peregrineflier.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching perfected!
Hi Tom, a fine decent etch. Good work and a remarkable piece as it has especially much cohenite! Well done! Martin - Original Message - From: Tom AKA James Knudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 10:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching perfected! Hello List, I am done playing around with etching art! But, this CD turned out to look like art! I learned a thing or two about etching with all my trials errors the last month and tried it on this piece. No etched pictures, just on nice Canyon Diablo! I like it anyways! : ) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=6500225936ssPageNam e=STRK:MESE:IT Thanks, Tom peregrineflier IMCA 6168 http://www.frontiernet.net/~peregrineflier/Peregrineflier.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
Hey All, You can also try going to your local hardware/pool supply store and pick up some pool-cleaning acid. It's used to raise the ph of swimming pools. It usually runs for under $10 a gallon. I recently used some on a small nantan (bought for the experiment) and it ate all of the shale off in less than a day. If you try this, make sure to put the acid in a well ventilated place, as it tends to make a strong sulfur-like smell as it works. It should etch slices fairly well. Anyone else try this stuff? Jason __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
Of course, the down side of using fluoridated compounds is that they can MAKE YOU DIE! ...or just get burned very badly and end up in the hospital. For those of y'all who subscribe to Discover magazine, they had one of their Vital Signs articles about a hydrofluoric acid burn a few years ago. It's enough to turn you away from using fluorinated compounds ever again: http://www.discover.com/issues/apr-96/departments/aninvisiblefire739/ Be careful with that stuff - fluorine is a small enough atom that it soaks right through your skin and attacks your arteries and heart instead of just burning your skin. Cheers, MDF in my very Very VERY limited experience a solution of ammonium biflouride in phosphoric acid makes an excellet 'cleaning potion' for iron meteroties. I was quite skeptical of it's usefullness due to the flourine content, but the small sikhote i cleaned over a year ago is in perfect shape today - and it's a 'shower' - gets passed around to friends and sits around unprotected in the wet florida weather. a nice added bonus is that if left on a metal to be cleaned it leaves a layer of black iron oxide, somewhat hiding the cleaned areas in fusion crusted irons. --- Marc D. Fries, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Research Associate Carnegie Institution of Washington Geophysical Laboratory 5251 Broad Branch Rd. NW Washington, DC 20015 PH: 202 478 7970 FAX: 202 478 8901 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
Of course, the down side of using fluoridated compounds is that they can MAKE YOU DIE! ...or just get burned very badly and end up in the hospital. not to belittle the hazards of flourine, but let's keep things in perspective - just because something can kill you doesnt mean it cant be used when handled with due caution - after all drinking too much water can kill you, yet there is no reason to fear water. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the acid solution Adam talked about contained nitric acid. IF thats the case then the brownish gas that was evolved was nitrogen dioxide - a VERY toxic gas with a lethal concentration ten times LOWER than that of hydrogen cyanide - the stuff that was used in gas chambers to execute condemned prisoner. (LC50 of 200 ppm for 1 minute vs 2000 ppm for 1 minute for HCN). When viewed in that perspective a little bit of flourine here and there doesnt seem so bad. in short - so long as you take proper safety precuations when using such materials you can use the stuff without worry - but sloppy chemical hygene can cause serious injury or, aqs you pointed out - death. _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
Okay, now I know that I can't procure concentrated nitric acid without being employed by an institution of higher learning---unless I want to lie to the suppliers and tell them I'm a Professor of Inorganic Chemistry at Anthrax University or something. I'm no good at lying. So, following somebody's sage advice, I just bopped down to Radio Shack and picked up a pint of etching solution for about five bucks. Ferric Chloride, but I'm not sure what concentration. I assume that, even at full strength, FeCl3 requires more reaction time than does Nitrol. Anybody have experience with FeCl3, or give me an idea of how long I should allow it to react? BTW, I'm plan to use it on Campo and Canyon Diablo. VeIocity __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
Okay, now I know that I can't procure concentrated nitric acid without being employed by an institution of higher learning---unless I want to lie to the suppliers and tell them I'm a Professor of Inorganic Chemistry at Anthrax University or something. I'm no good at lying. says who? just open your phone book to chemical supliers and call one up - there are plenty of places that have retasil sales for lab chemcials - you might not find one locally if you are in the sticks, but it's far from difficult to get. _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
Dear Stan; My former experience isgo to the local water lab that samples wells/tests ground water. If you ask politely, one can get a 1/4 liter of Nitric if you tip the lowly lab tech with a specimen of meteorite and spend a few moments explaining what an interesting thing it is to be a meteorite collector...and an etching person! They get nitric many times in 5 gallon containers so a cup or so isn't a big thing. Sometimes a 12 pack is the route to go but a REAL meteorite specimen will usually work. Best, Dave the acidman thread killer stan . wrote: Okay, now I know that I can't procure concentrated nitric acid without being employed by an institution of higher learning---unless I want to lie to the suppliers and tell them I'm a Professor of Inorganic Chemistry at Anthrax University or something. I'm no good at lying. says who? just open your phone book to chemical supliers and call one up - there are plenty of places that have retasil sales for lab chemcials - you might not find one locally if you are in the sticks, but it's far from difficult to get. _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
What's a good source for etching compounds, such as concentrated nitric acid? Is a 6m nitric too heavy for etching? Something lighter, maybe 1m nitric? Thanks for your replies and suggestions! VeIocity __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
Hola, Concentrated nitric acid is about 16 molar (70%). You don't want any water you can avoid. It is then diluted (by pouring acid into alcohol) down to 1 molar (16:1 vol/vol), but in quotes because that should be with anhydrous, or 95% minimum ethyl alcoholI usually consider molar as in water, hence the important clarification. Doug careful and have fun drawing figures:) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
Hello List, This topic reminds me of the Magic Cleaning Potion we purchased from a hippie at the Denver show last year. We figured it was a combination of acids after accidentally reverse etching some Tazas with it. He was right this potion was capable of cleaning things. Not only did it etch our Tazas from the outside-in giving them a 3D appearance, it disintegrated a 2' square hole in our driveway after eating through a seam in a tin bucket. We can hardly wait to give this dude a piece of our mind this year as this potion gassed us out of our shop with a noxious brown cloud and damaged a bucket, ~ 400 grams of Tazas and our driveway. Be careful when using any type of acids to etch or clean with. All the best, Adam Hupe The Hupe Collection Team LunarRock IMCA 2185 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds Hola, Concentrated nitric acid is about 16 molar (70%). You don't want any water you can avoid. It is then diluted (by pouring acid into alcohol) down to 1 molar (16:1 vol/vol), but in quotes because that should be with anhydrous, or 95% minimum ethyl alcoholI usually consider molar as in water, hence the important clarification. Doug careful and have fun drawing figures:) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds
in my very Very VERY limited experience a solution of ammonium biflouride in phosphoric acid makes an excellet 'cleaning potion' for iron meteroties. I was quite skeptical of it's usefullness due to the flourine content, but the small sikhote i cleaned over a year ago is in perfect shape today - and it's a 'shower' - gets passed around to friends and sits around unprotected in the wet florida weather. a nice added bonus is that if left on a metal to be cleaned it leaves a layer of black iron oxide, somewhat hiding the cleaned areas in fusion crusted irons. From: Adam Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:45:53 -0700 Hello List, This topic reminds me of the Magic Cleaning Potion we purchased from a hippie at the Denver show last year. We figured it was a combination of acids after accidentally reverse etching some Tazas with it. He was right this potion was capable of cleaning things. Not only did it etch our Tazas from the outside-in giving them a 3D appearance, it disintegrated a 2' square hole in our driveway after eating through a seam in a tin bucket. We can hardly wait to give this dude a piece of our mind this year as this potion gassed us out of our shop with a noxious brown cloud and damaged a bucket, ~ 400 grams of Tazas and our driveway. Be careful when using any type of acids to etch or clean with. All the best, Adam Hupe The Hupe Collection Team LunarRock IMCA 2185 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Compounds Hola, Concentrated nitric acid is about 16 molar (70%). You don't want any water you can avoid. It is then diluted (by pouring acid into alcohol) down to 1 molar (16:1 vol/vol), but in quotes because that should be with anhydrous, or 95% minimum ethyl alcoholI usually consider molar as in water, hence the important clarification. Doug careful and have fun drawing figures:) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] etching?
Are you perhaps referring to water glass - a product that was used to coat eggs to extend preservation? John At 03:23 PM 11/17/03 -0700, Tom aka James Knudson wrote: Hello everyone, Has anyone ever tried (or even heard of ) Liquid Glass on a meteorite slice? Thanks, Tom Peregrineflier Yea, that's right, The proudest member of the IMCA # 6168 - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]harlan trammell To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] ; mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] l.com Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] etching? very interesting- if you polish a skyrock with a soft lap , the pattern is often visible From: william anderson To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] al.com Subject: [meteorite-list] etching? Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:08:28 -0800 (PST) Just had a bizarre thought that I have no answer to. Has anyone ever tried bringing out the widmanstatten pattern with a chemical free etch? I was remembering a fellow who liked to frost the busts of coins using a scaled down sandblasting outfit. He would mask the unetched areas with rubber cement. However if the taenite and kamacite have different hardnesses, the etch would be differential, so the pattern would emerge, and would happen without much fuss? Who knows what it would look like, but the visual desirability of an chemical etch might just be borne of no other alternatives. At the least there would be no great need for neutralizing the chems away. Just a random thought. Nice day to you all. Bill Anderson __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2746??PS=Customize MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] etching?
Bill, On a similar note, I have often wondered if there is another electrochemical way of 'etching' perhaps using an electrical voltage and an electrolyte (the Kamicite/ taenite would have different electrochemical potentials?) So it should in theory be possible to affect them differently electrically? You could then control the etch electronically? I once accidentally used some Ferric Chloride that had previously been used to etch copper circuit boards, and it actually Copper coated the meteorite!! It looked quite strange! The dissolved Copper chloride must have replaced the surface Fe/Ni ? More Random Thoughts! Mark Ford __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] etching?
very interesting- if you polish a skyrock with a soft lap , the pattern is often visible From: william anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [meteorite-list] etching? Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:08:28 -0800 (PST) Just had a bizarre thought that I have no answer to. Has anyone ever tried bringing out the widmanstatten pattern with a chemical free etch? I was remembering a fellow who liked to "frost" the busts of coins using a scaled down sandblasting outfit. He would mask the unetched areas with rubber cement. However if the taenite and kamacite have different hardnesses, the etch would be differential, so the pattern would emerge, and would happen without much fuss? Who knows what it would look like, but the visual desirability of an chemical etch might just be borne of no other alternatives. At the least there would be no great need for neutralizing the chems away. Just a random thought. Nice day to you all. Bill Anderson __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Customize MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] etching?
Hello everyone, Has anyone ever tried (or even heard of ) Liquid Glass on a meteorite slice? Thanks, TomPeregrineflier Yea, that's right,The proudest member of the IMCA # 6168 - Original Message - From: harlan trammell To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] etching? very interesting- if you polish a skyrock with a soft lap , the pattern is often visible From: william anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [meteorite-list] etching? Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:08:28 -0800 (PST) Just had a bizarre thought that I have no answer to. Has anyone ever tried bringing out the widmanstatten pattern with a chemical free etch? I was remembering a fellow who liked to "frost" the busts of coins using a scaled down sandblasting outfit. He would mask the unetched areas with rubber cement. However if the taenite and kamacite have different hardnesses, the etch would be differential, so the pattern would emerge, and would happen without much fuss? Who knows what it would look like, but the visual desirability of an chemical etch might just be borne of no other alternatives. At the least there would be no great need for neutralizing the chems away. Just a random thought. Nice day to you all. Bill Anderson __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Customize MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] etching solution
Back in my coin collecting days I use to use a product similar to this to read the worn off dates on Buffallo nickles. A few drops were put on the blank spot in a few seconds a weak date could be read. Can't remember if it contained a nickle salt or an iron salt solution. Any coin collecting list member have any familarity with this? Howard Wumark ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: H List,My experience with Ferric Chloride as an etchant ..Ferric Chloride works much better than Nitric in my opinion, and seemsto be more stable too! - I was pretty skeptical at first, about puttinga Chloride chemical onto an 'Iron' but I have tried it many times and itworks well the detail is superb!Acouple of things to bear in mind..Make sure the Ferric solution is not too concentrated, and only ever usethe etchant once, then discard.You must be sure to wash all the ferric off afterwards though .otherwiseit will tarnish and go dull.Also remember to wash the Iron in Alcohol before you etch (to degrease)and after you etch to remove water. Then dry in a warm oven.Wear Gloves ar you will get stained yellow!!!Just my .2 Euros worth..Mark Ford__Meteorite-list mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-listWant to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
Re: [meteorite-list] etching solution
Thanks very much to everyone for the help on this . . . Mark Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
