AW: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet?
Hi Ed, not to dissapoint you, but since decades the Chiemgau-impact is brought up again and again, though until now not a sinlge scientific relevant proof was found or delivered, neither for the presumed impact pits and craters, nor for the recovered samples, which turned out to be terrestrial. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von E.P. Grondine Gesendet: Montag, 21. August 2006 15:53 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet? Hi Larry, List - It appears we have at least one other comet sample: Cheimgau. good hunting, Ed --- Larry Lebofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all: Defending Tim Swindle and Humberto Campins. I have known them for years and they are very conservative scientists. Their work is good and they are well- respected scientists. They do not go off (too often) to make wild, unsubstantiated, claims., hence, the conclusions in their article. They based their Meteorite paper (and their original scientific paper) on what we know. We have observations of many comets (Campins has done a lot of this), but we have samples from only one comet (Halley), are just now studying Stardust material (so too early to say much), and IDPs which are thought to be, at least in part, cometary in origin. Clearly, we need multiple samples from multiple comets --- good luck in our lifetime. Therefore you base your theories on the existing information, not onwhat you hope to have in the future. That is why people propose new missions to comets and asteroids! We know that not all comets are the same based on our observations and where we think they came from. Some of this may be because of how many times they have been close to the Sun, some may have to be related to where they came from (Kuiper Belt or Oort cloud), and some may have to do with where they were formed (which may not have been where we see them coming from). Clearly, a chunk of a fresh comet would look very different from a dead comet. Or, as been on this listserv recently, could we tell the difference between a chunk of a comet or a piece of Ceres? I am not sure I would be willing to say anything in print even though I have studied Ceres for years. What, from either, would we expect to make it through the atmosphere? Even if we were to bring back samples from two or three comets, I doubt if anyone I know would be willing to say (with respect to the composition of comets) that that was their final answer. That is the nature of science. I really have to stop writing these a 5:00 in the morning, no breakfast and no soffee, but this is the quiet time of the day. Larry Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Comets ... being 'primitive material' ... we would need to have known multiple samples of multiple comets before we could say for sure. Hi Mark and List, I couldn't agree more and that's why I felt a bit uneasy when I read Campins' and Swindle's article in this issue of our METEORITE magazine: CAMPINS H. and SWINDLE T.D.(2006) Where are the cometary meteorites? (Meteorite, May 2006, Vol. 12, No.2, pp. 17-19). They solely refer repeatedly to Comet Halley and to Halley dust (plus to cometary IDPs). Many more comets need to be sampled before we can draw definite conclusions! Best, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: AW: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet?
Hi Martin, That's news to me. I don't have the URL at hand to give you for the initial study, but the isotopic evidence the U Wurzburg team presented then was pretty good. I have not seen any refutations yet - I may have missed them. Do you have a URL handy for them? good hunting, Ed --- Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ed, not to dissapoint you, but since decades the Chiemgau-impact is brought up again and again, though until now not a sinlge scientific relevant proof was found or delivered, neither for the presumed impact pits and craters, nor for the recovered samples, which turned out to be terrestrial. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von E.P. Grondine Gesendet: Montag, 21. August 2006 15:53 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet? Hi Larry, List - It appears we have at least one other comet sample: Cheimgau. good hunting, Ed --- Larry Lebofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all: Defending Tim Swindle and Humberto Campins. I have known them for years and they are very conservative scientists. Their work is good and they are well- respected scientists. They do not go off (too often) to make wild, unsubstantiated, claims., hence, the conclusions in their article. They based their Meteorite paper (and their original scientific paper) on what we know. We have observations of many comets (Campins has done a lot of this), but we have samples from only one comet (Halley), are just now studying Stardust material (so too early to say much), and IDPs which are thought to be, at least in part, cometary in origin. Clearly, we need multiple samples from multiple comets --- good luck in our lifetime. Therefore you base your theories on the existing information, not onwhat you hope to have in the future. That is why people propose new missions to comets and asteroids! We know that not all comets are the same based on our observations and where we think they came from. Some of this may be because of how many times they have been close to the Sun, some may have to be related to where they came from (Kuiper Belt or Oort cloud), and some may have to do with where they were formed (which may not have been where we see them coming from). Clearly, a chunk of a fresh comet would look very different from a dead comet. Or, as been on this listserv recently, could we tell the difference between a chunk of a comet or a piece of Ceres? I am not sure I would be willing to say anything in print even though I have studied Ceres for years. What, from either, would we expect to make it through the atmosphere? Even if we were to bring back samples from two or three comets, I doubt if anyone I know would be willing to say (with respect to the composition of comets) that that was their final answer. That is the nature of science. I really have to stop writing these a 5:00 in the morning, no breakfast and no soffee, but this is the quiet time of the day. Larry Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Comets ... being 'primitive material' ... we would need to have known multiple samples of multiple comets before we could say for sure. Hi Mark and List, I couldn't agree more and that's why I felt a bit uneasy when I read Campins' and Swindle's article in this issue of our METEORITE magazine: CAMPINS H. and SWINDLE T.D.(2006) Where are the cometary meteorites? (Meteorite, May 2006, Vol. 12, No.2, pp. 17-19). They solely refer repeatedly to Comet Halley and to Halley dust (plus to cometary IDPs). Many more comets need to be sampled before we can draw definite conclusions! Best, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet?
Hi Folks! We have to be very careful about the Chiemgau Comet Impact. To my knowledge it's not clear, what we have there! Most scientist think, that this is not an impact field, only a hand full do. Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von E.P. Grondine Gesendet: Montag, 21. August 2006 15:53 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet? Hi Larry, List - It appears we have at least one other comet sample: Cheimgau. good hunting, Ed --- Larry Lebofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all: Defending Tim Swindle and Humberto Campins. I have known them for years and they are very conservative scientists. Their work is good and they are well- respected scientists. They do not go off (too often) to make wild, unsubstantiated, claims., hence, the conclusions in their article. They based their Meteorite paper (and their original scientific paper) on what we know. We have observations of many comets (Campins has done a lot of this), but we have samples from only one comet (Halley), are just now studying Stardust material (so too early to say much), and IDPs which are thought to be, at least in part, cometary in origin. Clearly, we need multiple samples from multiple comets --- good luck in our lifetime. Therefore you base your theories on the existing information, not onwhat you hope to have in the future. That is why people propose new missions to comets and asteroids! We know that not all comets are the same based on our observations and where we think they came from. Some of this may be because of how many times they have been close to the Sun, some may have to be related to where they came from (Kuiper Belt or Oort cloud), and some may have to do with where they were formed (which may not have been where we see them coming from). Clearly, a chunk of a fresh comet would look very different from a dead comet. Or, as been on this listserv recently, could we tell the difference between a chunk of a comet or a piece of Ceres? I am not sure I would be willing to say anything in print even though I have studied Ceres for years. What, from either, would we expect to make it through the atmosphere? Even if we were to bring back samples from two or three comets, I doubt if anyone I know would be willing to say (with respect to the composition of comets) that that was their final answer. That is the nature of science. I really have to stop writing these a 5:00 in the morning, no breakfast and no soffee, but this is the quiet time of the day. Larry Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Comets ... being 'primitive material' ... we would need to have known multiple samples of multiple comets before we could say for sure. Hi Mark and List, I couldn't agree more and that's why I felt a bit uneasy when I read Campins' and Swindle's article in this issue of our METEORITE magazine: CAMPINS H. and SWINDLE T.D.(2006) Where are the cometary meteorites? (Meteorite, May 2006, Vol. 12, No.2, pp. 17-19). They solely refer repeatedly to Comet Halley and to Halley dust (plus to cometary IDPs). Many more comets need to be sampled before we can draw definite conclusions! Best, Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: AW: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet?
Hi Ed, the problem with the Chiemgau-debate is, that it is so old, that the discussion seems to be driven predominantly by the human factor and not by science anymore. Personal attacks of the different involved groups seem to make a rational analysis of this issue impossible. Some say they have clear evidence, but don't want to show the samples, other seem to care more about the personal reputation of the adversary group members than about research, others choose as place for publication rather TV and media and not the usual journals... - a mess (partially paid by the German tax-payer). The so called craters were identified by the Geologischen Landesamt as glacial - sorry I don't find the terminus technicus in English now, I think kettle is the right word? - and some as antique bloomeries. There is also a small, quite circulate lake and one scientist claims to have thin sections from shocked quartz from there, but never published it. The metal finds around there contain no nickel (and as no meteoritic material could be found, the fans of the impact scenario seems to have switched to a theory of a comet fragment exploded at high altitudes, which dynamically seems not to work (there I'm not an expert)). And finally the ominous presolar FeSi-pellets contain no cosmogene noble gases, nor do the O-isotopes show an extraterrestrial origin. They are found also elsewhere, not only in Chiemgau and are most probably industrial pollution. That's what I heard so far, but I'm sure that Dieter Heinlein, who was somewhat involved in that issue, can give you better details. A funny thing I have to tell more. Obviously some of the impact-camps played with the online impact effect calculator and from the results they made a dramatic pseudo-documentary. There you could see the Celts of Chiemgau in 465 b.C. (some of the experts achieved to calculate the exact date of the fall - here I see the motivation in the before discussed crater in Northern Italy, which was connected with the vision of emperor Constantine, the cross in the sky...). And the sky was falling on their heads. Fortunately the falling fire brought also some iron with it, so that the Celts of Chiemgau profited in a sudden step forward in civilization and technology. The metal was attributed as The Black Gold of the Celts.. ...ähem and so on. That documentary was shown in one of the main TV-channels at Sunday primetime. Effect, several people believed each brown stone in their gardens to be a meteorite and the Black Gold of the Celts. One very enthusiastic finder you will still find trying to sell his meteorites on German ebay. (He learned, meanwhile he's selling also Mars-chondrites, CIs, and fossils of animals killed by impacts (not Ries-Belemnites)). http://kuerzer.de/gosh1 http://kuerzer.de/gosh2 Enjoy! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von E.P. Grondine Gesendet: Montag, 21. August 2006 16:22 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: AW: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet? Hi Martin, That's news to me. I don't have the URL at hand to give you for the initial study, but the isotopic evidence the U Wurzburg team presented then was pretty good. I have not seen any refutations yet - I may have missed them. Do you have a URL handy for them? good hunting, Ed --- Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ed, not to dissapoint you, but since decades the Chiemgau-impact is brought up again and again, though until now not a sinlge scientific relevant proof was found or delivered, neither for the presumed impact pits and craters, nor for the recovered samples, which turned out to be terrestrial. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von E.P. Grondine Gesendet: Montag, 21. August 2006 15:53 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet? Hi Larry, List - It appears we have at least one other comet sample: Cheimgau. good hunting, Ed --- Larry Lebofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all: Defending Tim Swindle and Humberto Campins. I have known them for years and they are very conservative scientists. Their work is good and they are well- respected scientists. They do not go off (too often) to make wild, unsubstantiated, claims., hence, the conclusions in their article. They based their Meteorite paper (and their original scientific paper) on what we know. We have observations of many comets (Campins has done a lot of this), but we have samples from only one comet (Halley), are just now studying Stardust material (so too early to say much), and IDPs which are thought to be, at least in part, cometary in origin. Clearly, we need multiple samples from multiple comets --- good luck in our lifetime. Therefore you base your theories
