Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
Wups! Sounds like I may have inadvertently stepped on some academic toes. I don't mean to accuse the good doctor of faking anything, and apologize if it came out like that. I'm just trying to imagine a cosmic event that would hurl near-microscopic BBs of iron through the atmosphere at meteoric speed without reducing them to incandescent vapor, yet have them keep enough inertia and heat to penetrate bone and ivory. Popular cinema representations aside (Armageddon, anyone?) meteorites that go that fast and are that small are really meteors and burn up before hitting the ground. Slightly bigger bits, a la Holbrook, went into dark/cold flight long before getting near the ground. Our atmosphere is a very efficient protection device. Given the extraordinary claim, I'd like extraordinary evidence. Is there a terrestrial phenomenon that would fill the bill, like volcanic ash? Where were the tusks and bones originally found, and in conjunction with what sediments/plant matter/snow? Were they on the surface, or did they have to be excavated, and can their location be revisited for sampling? Have deposits of the smoking iron pellets (okay from now on, I'm just going to call them Hot Hail, as in the Flash Gordon Emperor Ming device) been found elsewhere, in the same manner as the K-T iridium layer? If the Hot Hail penetrated mammoth tusks, we should find them imbedded in soil deposits, snow layers, and tree trunks from the same era. Did the Hot Hail have a strewnfield? I know, I know too many questions with no theory. Tracy Latimer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:30:26 -0600 CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments Hi, List Well, I knew we were going to get back to those mammoth teeth... How about the history of the whole crazy thing? Who is Richard B. Firestone? Firestone is a well-established scientist I think you can dismiss the shotgun theory, really: No Cardiff Giant, no Abominable Snow Man, no fake diamond mine, no Barnum tricks. _ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
I also agree. Any airburst or cratering event sufficiently energetic to create Meteor-Crater-esque iron spherules and fire them, still smoking, into mammoth tusks, should result in more definite signs of concussion and heat damage to the other bones. We should be finding, in conjunction with pitted mammoth tusks, skeletons with shattered bones, singed hair and flesh and other remnants, and other evidence of being at the meteoric equivalent of ground zero. Look at what happened at Tunguska. Where are the charred tree stumps and other plant matter? Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, is there a chance the author is fudging the findings? Could the proposed results be replicated by, say, firing a shotgun shell full of coarse iron filings at a tusk, like using paper from the appropriate era to forge a historical document? Stranger things have happened in the course of academia, especially when a scientist has strongly invested in a theory. Human beings also love a fantastic, even if erroneous, story, over a more pedestrian explanation, despite Occam's Razor. Is there another, simpler explanation for the findings? Just call me Doubting Tracy (I was dubious about the Peru crater as well, and was happy to have been proven wrong!) Tracy Latimer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:27:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:33 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Eight tusks dating to some 35,000 years ago all show signs of having being peppered with meteorite fragments. The mammoth and bison remains all display small (about 2-3mm in size) perforations. Raised, burnt surface rings trace the point of entry of high-velocity projectiles; and the punctures are on only one side, consistent with a Okay, does this make much sense to someone better with the math than I am? (I'm staring in your direction, Sterling). How far would particles of meteorititic or cometary dust (presumedly from an airburst) be able to travel in near-surface atmospheric thickness while still retaining enough velocity to penetrate bone and leave raised, burnt surface rings? I'm betting not very far at all. Tens of meters? Hundreds? I'm betting that if you are close enough to have dust (2-3mm) penetrate bone, you are close enough that you are going to be turned into a bag of splintered pulp by the shockwave. Just doesn't seem to hold water to me. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
Hello Tracy, All, I agree, but the main problem is that the spherule-type material from Canyon Diablo wasn't fired out of anything; it condensed out of a cloud of vapour that formed as a result of the meteorites vaporization upon impact. They weren't necessarily hot to any appreciable degree when they touched ground, and they weren't moving any more quickly than terminal velocity. I think this is just a case of ignorance: of physics, meteorites, etc. Regards, Jason On Dec 13, 2007 12:41 PM, tracy latimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also agree. Any airburst or cratering event sufficiently energetic to create Meteor-Crater-esque iron spherules and fire them, still smoking, into mammoth tusks, should result in more definite signs of concussion and heat damage to the other bones. We should be finding, in conjunction with pitted mammoth tusks, skeletons with shattered bones, singed hair and flesh and other remnants, and other evidence of being at the meteoric equivalent of ground zero. Look at what happened at Tunguska. Where are the charred tree stumps and other plant matter? Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, is there a chance the author is fudging the findings? Could the proposed results be replicated by, say, firing a shotgun shell full of coarse iron filings at a tusk, like using paper from the appropriate era to forge a historical document? Stranger things have happened in the course of academia, especially when a scientist has strongly invested in a theory. Human beings also love a fantastic, even if erroneous, story, over a more pedestrian explanation, despite Occam's Razor. Is there another, simpler explanation for the findings? Just call me Doubting Tracy (I was dubious about the Peru crater as well, and was happy to have been proven wrong!) Tracy Latimer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:27:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:33 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Eight tusks dating to some 35,000 years ago all show signs of having being peppered with meteorite fragments. The mammoth and bison remains all display small (about 2-3mm in size) perforations. Raised, burnt surface rings trace the point of entry of high-velocity projectiles; and the punctures are on only one side, consistent with a Okay, does this make much sense to someone better with the math than I am? (I'm staring in your direction, Sterling). How far would particles of meteorititic or cometary dust (presumedly from an airburst) be able to travel in near-surface atmospheric thickness while still retaining enough velocity to penetrate bone and leave raised, burnt surface rings? I'm betting not very far at all. Tens of meters? Hundreds? I'm betting that if you are close enough to have dust (2-3mm) penetrate bone, you are close enough that you are going to be turned into a bag of splintered pulp by the shockwave. Just doesn't seem to hold water to me. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:41:54 +, you wrote: Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, is there a chance the author is fudging the findings? Could the proposed results be replicated by, say, firing a shotgun shell full of coarse iron filings at a tusk, like using paper from the appropriate era to forge a historical document? I'm wondering if there might have been some sort of attempt to clean the fossils, such as listed under MECHANICAL PREPARATION here http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/resources/prep.htm that could have damaged the fossils and left behind bits of iron. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
I can only repeat my urging to watch the National Geographic Channel Explorer , Mammoth Extinction which addresses many of these questions. Repeated the weekend! Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: tracy latimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:41:54 +, you wrote: Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, is there a chance the author is fudging the findings? Could the proposed results be replicated by, say, firing a shotgun shell full of coarse iron filings at a tusk, like using paper from the appropriate era to forge a historical document? I'm wondering if there might have been some sort of attempt to clean the fossils, such as listed under MECHANICAL PREPARATION here http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/resources/prep.htm that could have damaged the fossils and left behind bits of iron. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
comments about tiny fast particles surviving the atmosphere that he knows pretty much nothing about it. He's been learning though. Now, he understands only the airburst of a large object can get the particles close to the elephants, er, mammoths, hence the new explanation. It probably isn't explanation enough. But if you don't like the hypothesis, then the appropriate response is to put on your hypothesizing hats and get into Deep Thought. (Yeah, you're right; I got nothing.) However, don't waste time kicking the Orphan Fact! There is independent evidence of cosmic radiation spikes in the Antarctic ice cores at the very same dates as Firestone finds elsewhere, in the isotope Beryllium-10, again this is an isotope only generated in supernovae. Something happened, but what? And, Firestone has a popular-market book out now (of course): http://www.amazon.com/Cycle-Cosmic-Catastrophes-Stone-Age-Changed/dp/1591430615 Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: tracy latimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered withMeteorite Fragments I also agree. Any airburst or cratering event sufficiently energetic to create Meteor-Crater-esque iron spherules and fire them, still smoking, into mammoth tusks, should result in more definite signs of concussion and heat damage to the other bones. We should be finding, in conjunction with pitted mammoth tusks, skeletons with shattered bones, singed hair and flesh and other remnants, and other evidence of being at the meteoric equivalent of ground zero. Look at what happened at Tunguska. Where are the charred tree stumps and other plant matter? Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, is there a chance the author is fudging the findings? Could the proposed results be replicated by, say, firing a shotgun shell full of coarse iron filings at a tusk, like using paper from the appropriate era to forge a historical document? Stranger things have happened in the course of academia, especially when a scientist has strongly invested in a theory. Human beings also love a fantastic, even if erroneous, story, over a more pedestrian explanation, despite Occam's Razor. Is there another, simpler explanation for the findings? Just call me Doubting Tracy (I was dubious about the Peru crater as well, and was happy to have been proven wrong!) Tracy Latimer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:27:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:33 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Eight tusks dating to some 35,000 years ago all show signs of having being peppered with meteorite fragments. The mammoth and bison remains all display small (about 2-3mm in size) perforations. Raised, burnt surface rings trace the point of entry of high-velocity projectiles; and the punctures are on only one side, consistent with a Okay, does this make much sense to someone better with the math than I am? (I'm staring in your direction, Sterling). How far would particles of meteorititic or cometary dust (presumedly from an airburst) be able to travel in near-surface atmospheric thickness while still retaining enough velocity to penetrate bone and leave raised, burnt surface rings? I'm betting not very far at all. Tens of meters? Hundreds? I'm betting that if you are close enough to have dust (2-3mm) penetrate bone, you are close enough that you are going to be turned into a bag of splintered pulp by the shockwave. Just doesn't seem to hold water to me. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:30:26 -0600, you wrote: Well, I knew we were going to get back to those mammoth teeth... How about the history of the whole crazy thing? Who is Richard B. Firestone? I thought this sounded like the same song, different day! Anyway, his fitting the fragged tusks data into his 13kbp event theory are blown away by one little problem: But having gone out and tested the hypothesis of tusk impacts, and having apparently uncovered such items - the team was then astonished to find the animal remains were about 20,000 years older than had been anticipated. But no problem!: Maybe, these were tusks from dead animals that were just exposed on the surface, so when this thing blew up in the atmosphere, it would have peppered them. The date could really be anywhere from 13,000 to 35-40,000 years ago. (That sound you heard was joints popping from r-e-a-c-h-i-n-g for that possibility). Yet: In the case of the bison, we know that it survived the impact because there's new bone growth around these marks. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
- - Original Message - From: tracy latimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite Mailing List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered withMeteorite Fragments I also agree. Any airburst or cratering event sufficiently energetic to create Meteor-Crater-esque iron spherules and fire them, still smoking, into mammoth tusks, should result in more definite signs of concussion and heat damage to the other bones. We should be finding, in conjunction with pitted mammoth tusks, skeletons with shattered bones, singed hair and flesh and other remnants, and other evidence of being at the meteoric equivalent of ground zero. Look at what happened at Tunguska. Where are the charred tree stumps and other plant matter? Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, is there a chance the author is fudging the findings? Could the proposed results be replicated by, say, firing a shotgun shell full of coarse iron filings at a tusk, like using paper from the appropriate era to forge a historical document? Stranger things have happened in the course of academia, especially when a scientist has strongly invested in a theory. Human beings also love a fantastic, even if erroneous, story, over a more pedestrian explanation, despite Occam's Razor. Is there another, simpler explanation for the findings? Just call me Doubting Tracy (I was dubious about the Peru crater as well, and was happy to have been proven wrong!) Tracy Latimer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:27:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:33 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Eight tusks dating to some 35,000 years ago all show signs of having being peppered with meteorite fragments. The mammoth and bison remains all display small (about 2-3mm in size) perforations. Raised, burnt surface rings trace the point of entry of high-velocity projectiles; and the punctures are on only one side, consistent with a Okay, does this make much sense to someone better with the math than I am? (I'm staring in your direction, Sterling). How far would particles of meteorititic or cometary dust (presumedly from an airburst) be able to travel in near-surface atmospheric thickness while still retaining enough velocity to penetrate bone and leave raised, burnt surface rings? I'm betting not very far at all. Tens of meters? Hundreds? I'm betting that if you are close enough to have dust (2-3mm) penetrate bone, you are close enough that you are going to be turned into a bag of splintered pulp by the shockwave. Just doesn't seem to hold water to me. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:30:26 -0600, you wrote: And, Firestone has a popular-market book out now (of course): http://www.amazon.com/Cycle-Cosmic-Catastrophes-Stone-Age-Changed/dp/1591430615 Hm. Recommended by the people that bought his book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743491904/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591430526/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mammoths Found Peppered with Meteorite Fragments
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:33 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Eight tusks dating to some 35,000 years ago all show signs of having being peppered with meteorite fragments. snip The mammoth and bison remains all display small (about 2-3mm in size) perforations. Raised, burnt surface rings trace the point of entry of high-velocity projectiles; and the punctures are on only one side, consistent with a Okay, does this make much sense to someone better with the math than I am? (I'm staring in your direction, Sterling). How far would particles of meteorititic or cometary dust (presumedly from an airburst) be able to travel in near-surface atmospheric thickness while still retaining enough velocity to penetrate bone and leave raised, burnt surface rings? I'm betting not very far at all. Tens of meters? Hundreds? I'm betting that if you are close enough to have dust (2-3mm) penetrate bone, you are close enough that you are going to be turned into a bag of splintered pulp by the shockwave. Just doesn't seem to hold water to me. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
