Re: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ
I guess my question is: what's wrong with the way it works now? :DG On 6/22/06, Sam Sethi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Remi My take on it is this - Tantek and others started this idea but as it grows up (its 1 years old) it should be handed over to some standards body. Tantek due to his commercial connection with Technorati - IMHO - should divest ownership of Microformats.org to the W3C or some other body. My only concern is that this may kill the speed and agility of MF's just as they gain traction. Sam -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rémi Prévost Sent: 22 June 2006 00:33 To: Microformats Discuss Subject: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ Hi guys, Yesterday, I posted a post on my blog explaining the basics of microformats but I got a question from a reader that is not answered in the wiki FAQ, although I think it is a very good one. The question is: Are microformats approved by anyone else that their creators and the ones who user them? Who is in charge of them? I mean, I know they're all open formats, but I was still wondering if there's an organization that is in charge of the microformats. For example, the W3C is in charge of the development of several standards, but who is in charge of the development of microformats. Is microformats community the only one that is in charge of them? Thank you, P.S. - Sorry for my bad english. -- Rémi Prévost [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://remiprevost.com | http://exomel.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] More Microformats Browser UI
On Jun 21, 2006, at 8:29 PM, Chris Messina wrote: So, here's a challenge: what kind of solutions can we come up with that are single click only? I just made this Greasemonkey script yesterday: http://greasemonkey.makedatamakesense.com/callto_tel/ It wraps TEL numbers in hcards with callto: links, which can be used to open phone calls in VOIP applications like Skype or Vonage (I've only tested with Skype on OSX). It has several known bugs, including merging multiple VALs within the same TEL, being totally ignorant of non-American phone number formats (because I don't know much about non-US phone number formats, nor how VOIP applications handle them), and not checking to see what tag the TEL is in and potentially wrapping a link around something it can't go around in valid XHTML. But it is, nonetheless, a one-click interface for hcards, as requested above. And as far as my searching found, VOIP is a previously unexplored interface for hcards. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ
Rémi, The short answer to your question is, yes, the microformats community, and please read the process: http://microformats.org/wiki/process As far as Sam's point, Dimitri is right. From a *process* perspective, what we have built (and are continuing to build) with microformats.org has numerous improvements over more established standards bodies and thus I might make even the *opposite* statement as Sam, that is, perhaps other standards bodies would do well to watch, learn, and copy the techniques, infrastructure, process, openness etc. of microformats.org. As far as the microformats standards themselves, I recognized very early on that everything we specify here at microformats.org should be forward compatible with the policies of other standards organizations, and thus established royalty-free patent and sharable (e.g. Creative Commons) copyright policies and statements accordingly on all microformat specifications which allow them to be submitted in the future to either W3C or IETF, without having to decide specifically upfront. If you work on a microformat proposal/spec etc. you agree to these by participating in the process. Sam points out that I am employed by Technorati and implies that poses some sort of conflict or corporate bias. I'll challenge you on that Sam, because the (by design deliberate) policies of having open email/IRC/wiki with archives actually serve to make microformats.org *more* transparent and accountable than *any* other standards effort (I challenge you to find one with more open policies) no matter *who* is involved or what connections they may have, and second, enable *anyone* with email/IRC/web access to participate without having to pay *thousands* of dollars per year to join a consortium or committee. In that latter sense, microformats.org is actually *less* corporate (despite your implication) than other standards bodies which require paid membership to take part in (very often secret) discussions which actually write the standards, and in some cases, even just the *test suites*. The point here is that microformats.org, as a community was designed to be open and accessible to independent designers and developers, and puts them on equal footing with small and large companies alike. And to correct Sam's implications further, Technorati does not own microformats.org and this was by design from the beginning just over a year ago. At that time Technorati handed over all its preexisting work on microformats from the Technorati Developer's Wiki (where many of the early ideas/proposals were born), to the microformats.org wiki and community specifically to put the work into the hands of the community. Rémi wrote and asked: who is in charge of the development of microformats. Is microformats community the only one that is in charge of them? Yes. Tantek On 6/22/06 5:17 AM, Dimitri Glazkov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess my question is: what's wrong with the way it works now? :DG On 6/22/06, Sam Sethi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Remi My take on it is this - Tantek and others started this idea but as it grows up (its 1 years old) it should be handed over to some standards body. Tantek due to his commercial connection with Technorati - IMHO - should divest ownership of Microformats.org to the W3C or some other body. My only concern is that this may kill the speed and agility of MF's just as they gain traction. Sam -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rémi Prévost Sent: 22 June 2006 00:33 To: Microformats Discuss Subject: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ Hi guys, Yesterday, I posted a post on my blog explaining the basics of microformats but I got a question from a reader that is not answered in the wiki FAQ, although I think it is a very good one. The question is: Are microformats approved by anyone else that their creators and the ones who user them? Who is in charge of them? I mean, I know they're all open formats, but I was still wondering if there's an organization that is in charge of the microformats. For example, the W3C is in charge of the development of several standards, but who is in charge of the development of microformats. Is microformats community the only one that is in charge of them? Thank you, P.S. - Sorry for my bad english. -- Rémi Prévost [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://remiprevost.com | http://exomel.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ
On Jun 22, 2006, at 8:32 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote: Sam points out that I am employed by Technorati and implies that poses some sort of conflict or corporate bias. I'll challenge you on that Sam, because the (by design deliberate) policies of having open email/IRC/wiki with archives actually serve to make microformats.org *more* transparent and accountable than *any* other standards effort (I challenge you to find one with more open policies) no matter *who* is involved or what connections they may have, and second, enable *anyone* with email/IRC/web access to participate without having to pay *thousands* of dollars per year to join a consortium or committee. In that latter sense, microformats.org is actually *less* corporate (despite your implication) than other standards bodies which require paid membership to take part in (very often secret) discussions which actually write the standards, and in some cases, even just the *test suites*. Nonetheless, people maintain a mistrust of large corporations, and Technorati's ties to microformats.org are more obvious than the various corporate connections to the W3C. It may not be a valid concern, but it is definitely a real concern that continues to hamper microformat adoption. I'd suggest that challenging such people to validate their concern is not the best way to address this issue. Sure, Technorati should be presumed benign until there is evidence to the contrary, but unfortunately that's not how such perceptions work in the real world. The point here is that microformats.org, as a community was designed to be open and accessible to independent designers and developers, and puts them on equal footing with small and large companies alike. And it has largely succeeded in being all of those things, but that doesn't have much effect on how people unfamiliar with the history perceive the relationship between Technorati, the microformats community, and also the GMPG. I think it would be helpful to unambiguously clarify these relationships up front as people begin to learn about microformats. And to correct Sam's implications further, Technorati does not own microformats.org Who does? Can we get that information on the about page and address these concerns before they develop? As a side note, does anyone know anything about wwwmicroformats.org? Is that just typo domain squatting? Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Book Contents Format
Alex, Bruce, Please document your knowledge of existing book formats on the book-formats page. We could certainly use your help with that. http://microformats.org/wiki/book-formats Thanks! Tantek On 6/22/06 7:25 AM, Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/21/06, Alex Ezell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Tantek mentioned, there aren't many real-world examples. Perhaps, my project could be one such example and I would like for this group to have as much input into the final format I use as makes sense. I think it's a good idea. DocBook, TEI, LaTeX are all good existing models (I think the constant focus on real world = what's already on the web is counter-productive; we're still early in the web revolution). Indeed, I author my academic articles and books in DocBook, and then convert them to a home-grown XHTML micro-format. It actually is pretty good on its own, but also imports nicely into Word (which is what publishers typically want). Note also that Alf Eaton did some work in this area. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Book Contents Format
On 6/22/06 7:43 AM, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 21, 2006, at 9:41 PM, Alex Ezell wrote: Honestly, I didn't think this mailing list would question the need for a microformat. Question its structure and its uses, of course, but question its necessity? It seems fundamental that a standard for presenting book-format texts should be written. I didn't mean to imply an answer to the question I asked. It was really just a question. The about page [1] says microformats are adapted to current behaviors and usage patterns, are not defining the whole world, or even just boiling the ocean, and solve a specific problem. I think is this needed? is a question that should be asked of all potential microformats, to keep these statements true. Agreed. If the answer is yes, then great. But it's not always yes. Not everything needs a microformat. This is a good summary. In addition, if it turns out there is insufficient real world behaviors to merit a microformat, people are still encourage to publish semantic XHTML with semantic class names and gain experience by doing so. To some extent, that's what boom is, Håkon is experimenting with his own set of semantic class names to gain experience with marking up book semantics in XHTML. Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Book Contents Format
Thanks Ross. Could you add that to the book-formats page? http://microformats.org/wiki/book-formats Thanks! Tantek On 6/21/06 5:47 PM, Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There might be something gleaned from TEI: http://www.tei-c.org/ Maybe not. -Ross. On 6/21/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/21/06 2:33 PM, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 21, 2006, at 4:24 PM, Alex Ezell wrote: That is, this is not to describe something like the Table of Contents, but actually structure each chapter or section or what have you. It seems that Project Gutenberg and the Distributed Proofreaders may be the leading edge on this front, but I thought that the microformatters would be a good place to start as well. I checked the wiki and the info was sparse, so I thought the mailing list readers might have more info tucked away on blogs somewhere. I assume you've seen these pages: http://microformats.org/wiki/book-brainstorming http://microformats.org/wiki/book-examples http://microformats.org/wiki/book-formats I suspect the wiki is sparse because there aren't many real world examples from which to draw semantics. There are two examples on the examples page and one points to bibliography markup for a plain-text book (as I believe all Project Gutenberg books are). So that leaves us with only one example from which to draw semantics That's not quite accurate. You can't dismiss the Project Gutenberg books because although they don't use angle brackets, their use of standardized whitespace and punctuation to represent various book semantics is a markup format of sorts and thus still quite useful from a implied schema research perspective. prompting the question: is there really a need for such a microformat? It's an interesting question, especially since a particular proposed book microformat (boom!) has been used to actually markup and *publish* a real physical book. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/boom Back when Håkon started working on boom, I gave him a bit of leeway, for various reasons: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-January/0028 70.html Suffice it to say that much of the microformats principles and process I have derived and designed from what I learned from Håkon. His instincts tend to be quite good. That said, I am still asking Håkon to go through the process with research of pre-existing formats, and naming of class names to reuse and take advantage of existing formats. Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] More Microformats Browser UI
Scott, that's very cool. Please add it to the Implementations section of the hCard spec: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implementations Thanks! Tantek On 6/21/06 9:42 PM, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 21, 2006, at 8:29 PM, Chris Messina wrote: So, here's a challenge: what kind of solutions can we come up with that are single click only? I just made this Greasemonkey script yesterday: http://greasemonkey.makedatamakesense.com/callto_tel/ It wraps TEL numbers in hcards with callto: links, which can be used to open phone calls in VOIP applications like Skype or Vonage (I've only tested with Skype on OSX). It has several known bugs, including merging multiple VALs within the same TEL, being totally ignorant of non-American phone number formats (because I don't know much about non-US phone number formats, nor how VOIP applications handle them), and not checking to see what tag the TEL is in and potentially wrapping a link around something it can't go around in valid XHTML. But it is, nonetheless, a one-click interface for hcards, as requested above. And as far as my searching found, VOIP is a previously unexplored interface for hcards. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ
At 1:13 PM +0100 6/22/06, Sam Sethi wrote: My take on it is this - Tantek and others started this idea but as it grows up (its 1 years old) it should be handed over to some standards body. Tantek due to his commercial connection with Technorati - IMHO - should divest ownership of Microformats.org to the W3C or some other body. My only concern is that this may kill the speed and agility of MF's just as they gain traction. I have to disagree with the idea of turning this over to a standards body, because I agree with your concern over strangulation. The fastest way to kill microformats is to yoke it with a formalized process like those of the W3C, IETF, etc. The original poster asked who controls microformats and the answer is the microformats community does. Tantek made a number of excellent points during his talk at @media, the audio for which I hope will be available soon. If I may be permitted to attempt a poor summary: * The community collectively determines whether a given microformat is accepted or not, simply by whether a given microformat is accepted into wide use or not. * This works because the goal of a 'standard' (in the de facto sense) is to interoprate with others. If your proposal isn't accepted by others, then it won't interoperate; ergo, an active community acts as its own review process and therefore its own standards body. This is decentralized standardization, which some would argue is the only kind that has any prayer of working over the long haul anyway. It's certainly lead to a great deal more movement and innovation than I've seen in any formalized standards body in the last decade or so. Of course, if a given microformat becomes so widely adopted that it's become a de facto standard, then that is a time when it might be submitted to an external body (W3C, IETF, etc.) for de jure standardization. But that would be done on an individual basis, not for microformats as a whole-- if such a thing were even possible. -- Eric A. Meyer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Principal, Complex Spiral Consulting http://complexspiral.com/ CSS: The Definitive Guide, CSS2.0 Programmer's Reference, Eric Meyer on CSS, and morehttp://meyerweb.com/eric/books/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ
On Jun 22, 2006, at 9:46 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote: Hamper compared to what? When I'm telling someone about microformats and they express concern that Technorati might try to control microformats as Microsoft or Google has been feared trying to control the web, or Apple trying to control podcasting, or UserLand trying to control RSS, I believe the answer influences people's interest in microformats. I try to point to the CC license. I avoid a curt that's just FUD (even if it is) because I find that insulting. I find clarifying ownership works well in one-on-one discussion and I think it would work well on the website too. If you disagree, fine. I don't think it's going to make a big difference in the long run, and I didn't mean to suggest it would. But I continue to believe clarifying ownership in advance would be an improvement. With all due respect Scott, if you consider the current adoption rate of microformats to be hampered, I would be curious to know what your expectations are. Frankly, I don't think that's all due respect. This appears to be a rhetorical question implying that my expectations are wildly unrealistic. I made concrete suggestions about what I think would improve adoption of microformats. I think I made it clear that I don't think corporate ownership is a valid concern, but I think it should be addressed nonetheless because it exists in the real world. And your response appears to me a defensive dismissal that does little to address my suggestion to clarify ownership before it becomes a concern. Maybe people don't express this concern to you, but they express it to me, so I'm passing that along. Don't shoot the messenger. Here's an alternative suggestion: if the sponsorship isn't something that needs to be disclaimed, perhaps it shouldn't be on the disclaimers page: http://microformats.org/wiki/Microformats:General_disclaimer Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ
On Jun 22, 2006, at 8:35 AM, Scott Reynen wrote: On Jun 22, 2006, at 9:46 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote: Hamper compared to what? When I'm telling someone about microformats and they express concern that Technorati might try to control microformats as Microsoft or Google has been feared trying to control the web, or Apple trying to control podcasting, or UserLand trying to control RSS, I believe the answer influences people's interest in microformats. The point of microformats is to give up control. Technorati genuinely believes that distributed open formats are more valuable than centralised closed ones, and that is a big reason why Tantek and I work here. I appreciate that this can be a difficult idea to get across, but the difficulty is with the idea of this kind of what Benkler calls 'Comunity-based peer production' rather than with Technorati's involvement. I try to point to the CC license. I avoid a curt that's just FUD (even if it is) because I find that insulting. I find clarifying ownership works well in one-on-one discussion and I think it would work well on the website too. If you disagree, fine. I don't think it's going to make a big difference in the long run, and I didn't mean to suggest it would. But I continue to believe clarifying ownership in advance would be an improvement. The problem may be that 'clarifying ownership' involves a digression into Open Source theory rather than a simple disclaimer. If you have a good way of explaining this do please share it. As Eric said, the real test is the empirical one of adoption, and the goal of the microformats process and community is to converge practice and specification to amplify this. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] permalinks for microformat chunks of pages: use the 'id' attribute on root microformat elements
I've been suggesting this for awhile. There are numerous benefits, besides addressing. For one thing, I'd like to see an AJAX library that pulls out one or more discontinuous DIVs from a remote webpage into the local page -- doing something like an iframe does, but using the remote page essentially as a database. This also is useful for the notion of including remote data by reference (http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern). Chris On 6/22/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my experience with both searching for microformats and revealing them and linking to them, I have found an interesting pattern that I would like to share with folks. The microformat chunks (e.g. hCards, hCalendar events, hReviews etc.) that have an id attribute are much easier to automatically reference (and thus link to and browser/scroll to from search results) than those without. I've done this with my hCard on my home page: http://tantek.com/ E.g. span class=vcard id=myhcard a class=url fn href=http://andy.example.com;Andy Smith/a /span When you mark up people/companies as hCards or hCalendar events or hReviews, along with other things on a single page, try using an id attribute on the root element (the element with class=vcard etc.) and report back how ti works with you. If this works for folks, I'll add it to hcard-authoring as a recommended good practice. Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Chris Messina Agent Provocateur, Citizen Agency Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work / citizenagency.com Blog / factoryjoe.com/blog Cell / 412 225-1051 Skype / factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: new wiki page: user-interface (was Re: [uf-discuss] More Microformats Browser UI)
Awesome, thanks. Chris On 6/22/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben, Chris, This heightened interest in user interfaces for microformats is very much deserving of at least a page to document the various ideas, screenshots, tools etc. that everyone is coming up with. I've added both those URLs to this new page on the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/user-interface I encourage you and everyone else to add more such examples. Thanks, Tantek On 6/21/06 3:05 PM, Ben Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Messina wrote: Beautiful: http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/a-proposal-for-a-safari-microformats-plug in Well, I saw Jon's post it this morning let out an involuntary cry/laugh/choke kind of reaction. I demo'd a terrifyingly similar concept to Tantek on Saturday [EMAIL PROTECTED] (whilst stealing his nachos, naturally). It's my bad for not posting weeks ago of course, butŠ wow. Similarity is proof of a good idea I hope. With thanks to Jon for the unintended kick up the arse to finish my write-up, I've finally published my interpretation of what is really a very similar idea: http://ben-ward.co.uk/journal/microformats-ui/ It's under a Creative Commons Attr+SA license, but as it says in the post if you want to implement it and can't meet the SA part for commercial reasons I'll happily relicense. The intention is just to encourage public evolution of the ideas. Regards, Ben ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Chris Messina Agent Provocateur, Citizen Agency Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work / citizenagency.com Blog / factoryjoe.com/blog Cell / 412 225-1051 Skype / factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ
On Jun 22, 2006, at 1:20 PM, Kevin Marks wrote: The point of microformats is to give up control. Technorati genuinely believes that distributed open formats are more valuable than centralised closed ones, and that is a big reason why Tantek and I work here. I know all this. My point is that someone reading microformats.org for the first time does not, and they should. The problem may be that 'clarifying ownership' involves a digression into Open Source theory rather than a simple disclaimer. If you have a good way of explaining this do please share it. On http://microformats.org/about I'd suggest something like: microformats are: ... open data format standards that a diverse community of individual and organizations are actively developing ... microformats are not: Controlled by any individual or organization On http://microformats.org/wiki/faq I'd suggest something like: Q: Who controls microformats? A: An open community. Microformats are open standards licensed under Creative Commons Attribution. Work on microformats began at Technorati, who later divested control of microformats to an open community The microformats.org domain is registered to CommerceNet, but CommerceNet claims no control over microformat standards... I'd like to be able to point people to words like these. I can say these things myself, but my words don't carry as much weight as microformats.org. In my experience, fearful, uncertain, and distracted people prefer weighty words. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Very basic question that is not in the FAQ
On Jun 22, 2006, at 2:08 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: On Jun 22, 2006, at 1:20 PM, Kevin Marks wrote: The point of microformats is to give up control. Technorati genuinely believes that distributed open formats are more valuable than centralised closed ones, and that is a big reason why Tantek and I work here. I know all this. My point is that someone reading microformats.org for the first time does not, and they should. The problem may be that 'clarifying ownership' involves a digression into Open Source theory rather than a simple disclaimer. If you have a good way of explaining this do please share it. On http://microformats.org/about I'd suggest something like: microformats are: ... open data format standards that a diverse community of individual and organizations are actively developing ... microformats are not: Controlled by any individual or organization This seems reasonable. Work on microformats began at Technorati, Well, that's not quite true. Work on microformats began with Tantek, Eric and Matt working on XFN. At the time, Tantek was still at Microsoft (and Eric and Matt have never worked at Technorati). -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Microformats wallpaper
Hello all, I made a (very simple) wallpaper[1] for promoting microformats. I didn't make it available on my website yet because I wanted to know if using the microformats logo is ok because I didn't find the license which it released under. Thank you, [1]: As seen on http://www.flickr.com/photos/remiprev/171676336 -- Rémi Prévost [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://remiprevost.com | http://exomel.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] hCard and encoded e-mail addresses
Hi all, I have a question/concern (and one that Tantek flagged up during his presentation at @media last week) with regards to e-mail addresses, and the fact that publishing them on the web can open them up to abuse. Currently, I display my e-mail address on my personal site (http:// www.lloydyweb.com/) by means of using name(at)domain.com notation, and then having a little piece of javascript that finds all spans with a class 'email' and converts them into the correct link. So: span class=emailpaul.lloyd(at)fourtwo.net/span becomes: a class=email href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/a I understand that for hCard, the e-mail actually needs to be an unaltered e-mail address, so this would not be possible. Or is it okay given that the browser *renders* it correctly? Looking at other methods of encoding an e-mail address, I have seen some sites where they encode the characters (including the mailto:): #46;#99;#111;#46;#117;#107; etc Would this method also not be allowed in the hCard spec? So my question is has anyone thought of ways to get around this problem? One solution would be to perhaps define a standard notation (such as name(at)example.com) and then parsers such as feeds.technorati.com/contacts/ could convert this into the correct format before saving out as a vCard? But then again, maybe not! I'd love to get some thoughts (even better answers!) on this issue. It seems a shame that I can display my e-mail on my site, but not have it included within my hCard markup. Or have I missed something? Regards, Paul Lloyd http://www.lloydyweb.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats wallpaper
On 6/22/06 5:13 PM, Rémi Prévost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, I made a (very simple) wallpaper[1] for promoting microformats. I didn't make it available on my website yet because I wanted to know if using the microformats logo is ok because I didn't find the license which it released under. Thank you, [1]: As seen on http://www.flickr.com/photos/remiprev/171676336 Hi Rémi, Nice wallpaper. The current proposal is to make the microformats logo a CommunityMark(cm) just like BarCamp(cm). http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/14/the-case-for-community-marks/ Thus ask the community if your use is proper or not, and see what people say. I for one like your wallpaper, and suggest that you share it under a creative commons license. ;) Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] permalinks for microformat chunks of pages: use the 'id' attribute on root microformat elements
On Jun 22, 2006, at 1:54 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote: The microformat chunks (e.g. hCards, hCalendar events, hReviews etc.) that have an id attribute are much easier to automatically reference (and thus link to and browser/scroll to from search results) than those without. In the past, I've added ID attributes to pages with multiple hCards thinking this would be useful for taking actions on specific contacts, but then discovered that most tools didn't recognize fragment URLs. Last I checked, I believe X2V wasn't recognizing fragment URLs, so it wasn't possible to export a single vcard from a document containing multiple hCards. To work around this, I made a proxy service to strip documents down to single fragments: http://makedatamakesense.com/fraggle/ For example, Tantek has 26 hCards on his home page, but you can pull out just his own by running the page through this proxy: http://makedatamakesense.com/fraggle/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F% 23hcard And then I went back and looked at X2V again, and now it seems to be recognizing fragment URLs. Technorati's vcard export still ignored the fragment in URLs, so I thought this might still be useful there. But it seems to be doing some odd conversion of URLs that makes this impossible. This: http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/http://makedatamakesense.com/ fraggle/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F%23hcard Becomes this: http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/http://tantek.com/#hcard And it converts all 26 hCards. So it looks like I wasted a little time on that proxy. But if there is some service out there that doesn't recognize fragment URLs, and anyone wants to take advantage of ID attributes on microformats, you can use it. On a side note: as I was going through the hCard examples looking for pages with multiple hCards to see if any of them had ID attributes already, I noticed a lot of pages in that list don't actually have hCards at all. For example, I remember Neil Dunn once had a nicely styled hCard on this page, but now it's gone: http://www.ndunn.com/2005/10/7/hCard So what's the protocol here? Should such links be removed from the wiki? Moved to a formerly had hCards section? Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] permalinks for microformat chunks of pages: use the 'id' attribute on root microformat elements
On 6/22/06 5:44 PM, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 22, 2006, at 1:54 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote: The microformat chunks (e.g. hCards, hCalendar events, hReviews etc.) that have an id attribute are much easier to automatically reference (and thus link to and browser/scroll to from search results) than those without. In the past, I've added ID attributes to pages with multiple hCards thinking this would be useful for taking actions on specific contacts, but then discovered that most tools didn't recognize fragment URLs. Last I checked, I believe X2V wasn't recognizing fragment URLs It's been recognizing them for a while. The key is, in order for X2V to process it, you must escape the # as %23. For example, Tantek has 26 hCards on his home page, but you can pull out just his own by running the page through this proxy: http://makedatamakesense.com/fraggle/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F% 23hcard No need. The get vCard link at the bottom my home page already does this using the support in the X2V code which the Technorati Contacts Feed Service is using. And then I went back and looked at X2V again, and now it seems to be recognizing fragment URLs. Technorati's vcard export still ignored the fragment in URLs, That is incorrect. Just go try clicking on the aforementioned link and you'll get a single vCard in the resultant .vcf. On a side note: as I was going through the hCard examples looking for pages with multiple hCards to see if any of them had ID attributes already, I noticed a lot of pages in that list don't actually have hCards at all. For example, I remember Neil Dunn once had a nicely styled hCard on this page, but now it's gone: http://www.ndunn.com/2005/10/7/hCard So what's the protocol here? Should such links be removed from the wiki? Moved to a formerly had hCards section? No established protocol. Certainly lack of an hCard would be a problem so at a minimum, it would be deserving of a move to the Examples with some problems section. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Examples_with_some_problems Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
