Re: [uf-discuss] hCard and vCard
On 8/3/06, John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example (and I've done this myself on numerous occasions) come and hear span class=vcardspan class=fnBen Barren/span/span speak about... is really not contact information, but this is a very commonly cited example of how one might use hCard (for example, for conference speakers). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this example actually one for using cite, as in come and hear citeBen Barren/cite speak about…?* I can't see why you would want to use your span construct over this; it looks a lot messier and, from a pure HTML perspective, isn't as semantic. *) Serious question. I could be completely off on this. :-) Regards, -- Sören ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard and vCard
Ben Buchanan wrote: For example (and I've done this myself on numerous occasions) come and hear span class=vcardspan class=fnBen Barren/span/span speak about... is really not contact information, but this is a very commonly cited example of how one might use hCard (for example, for conference speakers). Hmm, well the resulting vCard wouldn't actually be especially useful :) If it at least associated the person with a URL it would create a useful chunk of information. But I guess it does change it from bit of text to someone's name so yeah. But it is awfully borderline :) This is what I use in my WordPress site for the comments: cite class=vcardComment by a href=http://redmonk.net; rel=external class=url span class=fnSteve Ivy/span/a on a href=#comment-2321Jul 30, 2006 9:46 pm/a/cite Which is probably just a step up from the above example, as it has a URL. :) I'd be nice to see this supported in WP out of the box, eh? Pete ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard and vCard
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sören Nils 'chucker' Kuklau wrote: On 8/3/06, John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example (and I've done this myself on numerous occasions) come and hear span class=vcardspan class=fnBen Barren/span/span speak about... is really not contact information, but this is a very commonly cited example of how one might use hCard (for example, for conference speakers). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this example actually one for using cite, as in come and hear citeBen Barren/cite speak about…?* I can't see why you would want to use your span construct over this; it looks a lot messier and, from a pure HTML perspective, isn't as semantic. Could one use cite class=vcard fnBen Barren/cite instead? That would fit HTML semantics more closely. Andrew Sidwell -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3rc2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE0iN2nTTdvBpPNwsRAthrAJ9HvcgLI8r/7/1f1SXDhLE9CqkrYwCfWnEw RJripfKVFVAKmzDEP0FHtgM= =ioL2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Re: hCard and vCard
No reason that can't be put into WP core. In fact, I'd recommend anyone in or near the Bay Area (or remote via IRC) to participate in this weekend's WordCamp (wordcamp.org). All the lead devs will be in one place as well as a large contingent of the community and if there were ever a group of folks to present a unified message about the usefulness of the further adoption of microformats, it'd be these kats. For my part, I'll be in Boston doing my best to convince the Wikimaniacs of the power and importance of microformats. ;) Chris On 8/3/06, Pete Prodoehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben Buchanan wrote: For example (and I've done this myself on numerous occasions) come and hear span class=vcardspan class=fnBen Barren/span/span speak about... is really not contact information, but this is a very commonly cited example of how one might use hCard (for example, for conference speakers). Hmm, well the resulting vCard wouldn't actually be especially useful :) If it at least associated the person with a URL it would create a useful chunk of information. But I guess it does change it from bit of text to someone's name so yeah. But it is awfully borderline :) This is what I use in my WordPress site for the comments: cite class=vcardComment by a href=http://redmonk.net; rel=external class=url span class=fnSteve Ivy/span/a on a href=#comment-2321Jul 30, 2006 9:46 pm/a/cite Which is probably just a step up from the above example, as it has a URL. :) I'd be nice to see this supported in WP out of the box, eh? Pete ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Chris Messina Agent Provocateur, Citizen Agency Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard and vCard
On 8/3/06, Andrew Sidwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could one use cite class=vcard fnBen Barren/cite instead? That would fit HTML semantics more closely. The fn has to be inside the vcard, but cite class=vcardspan class=fnBen Barren/span/cite would be ok. -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Live Clipboard Screen Cast
On 8/3/06 7:37 AM, brian suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those who haven't seen this Live ClipBoard yet, there was a screencast released yesterday. Charles Torre of Channel9 interviewed Paresh Suthar and Matt Augustine about Live Clipboard and Simple Sharing Extensions (SSE). The video and discussion are here: http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=15. Microformats are talked about throughout the 30 minute presentation. Awesome. Brian, could you add this link along with direct links to the screencast(s) to the screencasts page? http://microformats.org/wiki/screencasts Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard and vCard
On Aug 3, 2006, at 9:25 AM, Andrew Sidwell wrote: Could one use cite class=vcard fnBen Barren/cite instead? That would fit HTML semantics more closely. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq (#17) -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Live Clipboard Screen Cast
I wrote about microformats and Live Clipboard wrt microtemplates a couple of months ago here: http://microtemplates.org/2006/05/14/ray-ozzie-clipboard-example/ The issue I found was that if you were pasting an object from one website to another, the blended presentation and content of microformats probably wasn't what you wanted, because you probably wanted the object formatted and styled and presented in the way that the target site wanted. I suggested using microtemplates as a way to handle the presentation on the target site - some client-side templating would be required, for sure. Also, I had to go from microformat to json in order to bind the microtemplate (which got me very unhappy about parsing microformats), which made me wonder whether microformat as a data representation actually worked in this context. (for some reason I can't resolve spaces.msn.com, and that link to the examples is *required* for the demos on my page to work! hope you have better luck.) brian suda wrote: For those who haven't seen this Live ClipBoard yet, there was a screencast released yesterday. Charles Torre of Channel9 interviewed Paresh Suthar and Matt Augustine about Live Clipboard and Simple Sharing Extensions (SSE). The video and discussion are here: http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=15. Microformats are talked about throughout the 30 minute presentation. -brian ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Live Clipboard Screen Cast
So I agree with what you said. But it makes me wonder why use microformats for *this application*? What do they buy you over json, xml, vcard, ical, etc? Scott Reynen wrote: On Aug 3, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: The issue I found was that if you were pasting an object from one website to another, the blended presentation and content of microformats probably wasn't what you wanted, because you probably wanted the object formatted and styled and presented in the way that the target site wanted. I suggested using microtemplates as a way to handle the presentation on the target site - some client-side templating would be required, for sure. Also, I had to go from microformat to json in order to bind the microtemplate (which got me very unhappy about parsing microformats), which made me wonder whether microformat as a data representation actually worked in this context. Any use of microformats needs to strip out the irrelevant HTML semantics and present the data in a consistent interface. I think the only differences between this context and any other are: 1) we are restricted to JavaScript, which is more limited than the wide array of server-side parsing tools, and 2) the source and target interface are both HTML, so it's tempting to think we don't actually have to parse the data. But data parsing is required between copy and paste in desktop applications, so why should copy and paste on the web be any different? Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: WordCamp (was Re: [uf-discuss] Re: hCard and vCard)
I'm going. My main interest will be in strong-arming Atom 1.0 support into WP, but I'd also be interested in that as well. On Aug 3, 2006, at 9:50 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote: http://upcoming.org/event/90382/ Who else on the list will be going? Perhaps we can brainstorm about what microformats support we can to add to WordPress in a day. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard and vCard
On 8/3/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/3/06 5:07 AM, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, well the resulting vCard wouldn't actually be especially useful :) If it at least associated the person with a URL it would create a useful chunk of information. But I guess it does change it from bit of text to someone's name so yeah. But it is awfully borderline :) It is only minimally useful, in that it is still identifying that Ben Barren is semantically a *person*. Is vcard really that semantically specific? Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] hCard and vCard
It looks like the powers-that-be have already come to a conclusion on extending hCard. However, I'd like to point something out. The discussed minimal-microformat come and hear span class=vcardspan class=fnBen Barren/span/span speak about... Does not actually say that Ben Barren is a /*person*/. All it says is that Ben Barren is a /*named entity*/ or a particular type. According to vCard, Ben Barren could be a person, company or organization. And with the latest proposed addition of using hCard for places, Ben Barren could also be a location. If the key here is to capture and represent the additional higher fidelity semantics, why are we agreeing to lose fidelity with the proposed changes to hCard? The original vCard definition makes sense for entities that you can contact, i.e., send a message to. In other words, the kind of thing you might store in, say, a contact database. That makes sense given the use case that created vCards. Places, however, are not necessarily contactable. Extending hCard to places undoes quite a bit of quality work limiting the semantics to be something specific and useful. Frankly, I like the addition of hCard as naming places. It fits certain use cases. It seems reasonable. It works. But when does it stop? This gradual transmogrification of one semantic into another is an insidious problem. If we are advocating dilution just barely one year after the creation of microformats (and hCard), how much do you think it might change in 20 years? And how will code written today survive those changes? How long until an hCard represents /any/ proper noun? This is slippery slope. The loose discussion of the /meaning/ behind the microformat seems only to cloud the issue further. -j -- Joe Andrieu [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 (805) 705-8651 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tantek Ç elik Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 10:22 AM To: microformats-discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hCard and vCard On 8/3/06 5:07 AM, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example (and I've done this myself on numerous occasions) come and hear span class=vcardspan class=fnBen Barren/span/span speak about... is really not contact information, but this is a very commonly cited example of how one might use hCard (for example, for conference speakers). Hmm, well the resulting vCard wouldn't actually be especially useful :) If it at least associated the person with a URL it would create a useful chunk of information. But I guess it does change it from bit of text to someone's name so yeah. But it is awfully borderline :) It is only minimally useful, in that it is still identifying that Ben Barren is semantically a *person*. Now what applications may do with that semantic we don't necessarily know. I could easily imagine however that a smart browser could notice any reference to a *person* on a page and provide an optional linkage to that person in my local address book for example. We don't know all the applications that this will enable. They key here is to capture and represent the additional higher fidelity semantics. Once you do so, there are numerous uses that can be made, like the above, or for example for better accessibility. All the same reasons you mark up your headings with h1 etc. tags. I think many would argue for maintaining the 1:1 relationship between the fields of vCard and the properties of hCard. Yes, that is not changing. It's what happens to the semantics of vCard that is at issue. So basically the uf wouldn't change, we'd just change the description to allow usages other than strictly a person's contact details? Seems fine. Correct. We actually discussed this a week ago or so, and I was working on an iteration but lost track of it when my computer had to be hard rebooted. :/ However, hCard maintains a 1:1 relationship with the fields of vCard Does this seem to capture current thinking and practice with hCard? I wouldn't really want to see hCard extended beyond the fields of vCard, even though vCard has some crappy limitations. Agreed. We are not adding new properties to hCard beyond what is in vCard. The 1:1 means hCards can feed data to the surprisingly large number of devices (and software) that can use vCards... which was a major selling point getting into our corporate directory :) Precisely! That compatibility is important. But, I think it's fair enough to say that entities and places can have a vCard - it doesn't just have to be a person. That's right. See the updated opening paragraph and let me know what you think: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Re: WordCamp (was Re: [uf-discuss] Re: hCard and vCard)
I am in a similar situation to Sebastian's, although Germany is a bit farther than Alabama (you know what they say, Georgia is Alabama's Germany). I, too, am working (though lapsed in a few last weeks) on an XFN/hCard/citation module for TinyMCE, which is what Wordpress is using. I haven't formalized the project yet, but it will be an LGPL doohickey. If you guys hear anybody doing or interested in doing something similar (or exactly the same) at the 'camp, would you pass the Word? :DG On 8/3/06, Sebastian Küpers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would love to come, but Germany is to far away - BUT: I am developing a wordpress plugin for microformats atm in cooperation with the RD department of the company I am working for. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: WordCamp (was Re: [uf-discuss] Re: hCard and vCard)
Sebastien -- sounds awesome! Would love to beta test your plugin! Additionally, (and you'd need to clear it with Matt) but I don't see any reason why the WordCamp model can't be spread like its parent, BarCamp. Additionally, OPML had a camp (opmlcamp.org) so I don't seen any reason why we couldn't stage a Microformats Camp/Symposium. In fact, a friend of mine is starting to organize MySQL Camp. Might want to get on board and host our own before it jumps the shark or becomes passe. ;) Anyone interested? On 8/3/06, Dimitri Glazkov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am in a similar situation to Sebastian's, although Germany is a bit farther than Alabama (you know what they say, Georgia is Alabama's Germany). I, too, am working (though lapsed in a few last weeks) on an XFN/hCard/citation module for TinyMCE, which is what Wordpress is using. I haven't formalized the project yet, but it will be an LGPL doohickey. If you guys hear anybody doing or interested in doing something similar (or exactly the same) at the 'camp, would you pass the Word? :DG On 8/3/06, Sebastian Küpers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would love to come, but Germany is to far away - BUT: I am developing a wordpress plugin for microformats atm in cooperation with the RD department of the company I am working for. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Chris Messina Agent Provocateur, Citizen Agency Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Microformats in french
If you're a francophone microformateer, you may be interested in this. Christophe Ducamp translated a huge part of the microformats wiki in french[1]. He did an amazing job by providing an amazing amount of information for francophone web developers who are interested in microformats but who don't read english. Just wanted to let you guys know, if you didn't. :) [1]: http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page-fr -- Rémi Prévost Développeur web, défenseur des standards du web [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://remiprevost.com http://exomel.com | http://linkedin.com/in/remiprev ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: WordCamp (was Re: [uf-discuss] Re: hCard and vCard)
Bill, it would be probably easier for you to get hAtom 0.1 support into Wordpress templates which you could then generate an Atom 1.0 feed automatically from. Consider that path to accomplishing your goal. Tantek On 8/3/06 11:21 AM, Bill Humphries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going. My main interest will be in strong-arming Atom 1.0 support into WP, but I'd also be interested in that as well. On Aug 3, 2006, at 9:50 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote: http://upcoming.org/event/90382/ Who else on the list will be going? Perhaps we can brainstorm about what microformats support we can to add to WordPress in a day. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in french
Tantek Çelik wrote: Rémi, this is awesome and I've been following Christophe's progress in IRC. When do you think it is ready enough that we should do a blog post on it? Or was this your subtle way of indicating that it is time? No, it wasn't a subtle way to make you blog about it ;) Do we know how much of the wiki has been translated? Or how much is left? A page count would be a good thing to start with. I think Christophe could answer that question, but as far as I know, there's not much left to translate. All the big sections have been translated: all µF specs and their related pages (hcard-faq, hcard-implementations, etc.). If you look at the to-do-fr page[1], you'll see that there's not a lot of red links, the only ones are mostly in this section[2]. I don't know about a page count, but I guess if you substract the number of pages that haven't been translated yet (around 30) from the total pages count, you'll get it :) But as I said, Christophe would provide a much accurate estimation. [1]: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do-fr [2]: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do-fr#Discussions_exploratoires -- Rémi Prévost Développeur web, défenseur des standards du web [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://remiprevost.com http://exomel.com | http://linkedin.com/in/remiprev ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Stats on Namespaced Extensions in Feeds
Thought this might tickle your pickle or whet your willy: http://googlereader.blogspot.com/2006/08/namespaced-extensions-in-feeds.html ;) -- Chris Messina Agent Provocateur, Citizen Agency Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Theme designer woes
Hi again uf-discuss! I came across rel=designer in a WordPress blog theme and it struck me that this could help alleviate the problem of artificially high numbers of incoming links causing some blogs to be banned from ranking services such as Technorati. This could be improved to encompass more default links, as Tantek suggests below. I'm interested in what this list can add. Andy Skelton -- Forwarded message -- From: Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Aug 3, 2006 5:27 PM Subject: Re: Theme designer woes To: Andy Skelton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andy, I agree that this is definitely a problem, not only for theme designers but also for the lead developers like Matt who are in the blogroll by default. Matt is one of my good friends, and this problem has been perplexing me pretty much since I started at Technorati :( Your suggestion of using a rel value to indicate that the link goes to the designer of the template is an interesting one. I'm wondering if we should have some more generic term that indicates that the link was part of the template, and thus could apply it to other links. Would you mind if we moved this discussion to the microformats-discuss mailing list? I would prefer to develop this microformat out in the open. Thanks, Tantek On 8/3/06 11:43 AM, Andy Skelton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tantek, At WordPress.com we're trying to tackle the problem of theme designers being banned from Technorati. We made the first move by adding rel=designer to the links in the theme footers. Is this something you can use? If you do find this useful, we'll push for broad adoption among designers. Cheers, Andy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
