Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Software Projects Description

[Scott Reynen]

On Oct 9, 2006, at 8:19 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote:

- How many common public softwares (downloadable from a Web page)  
do MD5 or SHA?


* Apache (PGP, MD5)
* PHP (MD5)
* Mozilla (PGP, MD5, SHA - from the FTP server only)
* Most Linux distros

I know, that's all softare for geeks, but I'd expect more sites to  
consider providing them if they were easier for a user to use, or  
in fact handled automatically.


Be that as it may, the microformats process requires an abundance of  
currently published content.  Checksums face a common chicken-egg  
problem.  Better software would encourage publishers to use  
checksums; more published checksums would encourages software  
developers to make better software.  But where do we start - with  
publishers or software developers?  Microformats are based on the  
idea that it's better for publishers to lead and software developers  
to follow because there are many more publishers than software  
developers.  If your hope for the future of checksums is based on the  
assumption that software developers should take the lead,  
microformats are probably not the best way to make that happen.


Peace,
Scott

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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Software Projects Description

[Karl Dubost]

Le 06-10-10 à 10:19, Lachlan Hunt a écrit :
Torrents are useful in this respect, because the hash checks are  
done as part of the process without any effort from the user.


You just  gave the answers where some metadata should stay hidden.
I thought microformats effort was about to make
*current authoring* practices
more regular, more normalized. It is not necessary to show all  
metadata on a Web page, specifically when they are more useful ways  
of doing it. Infobesity is not good for the Web end-user (who is a  
reader AND an author).


Projects of checking reliability of software downloading is a very  
good idea, but IMHO out of scope of microformats effort. And this  
just reading what I see lately like an  explosion of targets in  
microformats community, which might hurt this same community later on.



--
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
  QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
 *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Software Projects Description

[Lachlan Hunt]

Karl Dubost wrote:

Le 06-10-07 à 00:42, Lachlan Hunt a écrit :
MD5 sums are provided for downloads like Apache and PHP.  It would be 
useful so that the browser could take care of checking the file when 
it finishes downloading.  Presently, it requires too much manual 
effort for an average user to even bother figuring out how to check it.


- The browser *could* but doesn't for now.


If they did this already, this wouldn't be a problem and there would be 
nothing to solve.


- How many common public softwares (downloadable from a Web page) do MD5 
or SHA?


* Apache (PGP, MD5)
* PHP (MD5)
* Mozilla (PGP, MD5, SHA - from the FTP server only)
* Most Linux distros

I know, that's all softare for geeks, but I'd expect more sites to 
consider providing them if they were easier for a user to use, or in 
fact handled automatically.



- The average user will never do MD5
not, because it is too much effort
but he or she is not a geek.


The user shouldn't have to do it manually, it shouldn't matter if 
they're a geek or not.  It's something the browser should be able to 
take care of transparently, and then only alert the user if there is a 
problem.


- MD5 or SHA are useful only for a small geek community where the 
software is released on a distributed network (Linux, open source 
projects, etc.)


Check sums are useful for anyone to check the integrity of download. 
However, it's only used by geeks because it requires a geek to 
understand it's purpose and how to use it.  That is why I think it 
should be handled transparently for the user.


Torrents are useful in this respect, because the hash checks are done as 
part of the process without any effort from the user.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Software Projects Description

[Colin Barrett]

On Oct 9, 2006, at 2:02 PM, Karl Dubost wrote:

- How many common public softwares (downloadable from a Web page) do  
MD5 or SHA?


I can go dig up some URLs and post them on the wiki, if need be  
(although I think some of the obvious ones like SourceForge are  
already on there and do provide checksums).



- The average user will never do MD5
not, because it is too much effort
but he or she is not a geek.


All the more reason why it should be easier for browser manufacturers  
(or 3rd party developers) to build this sort of thing right in to the  
browser. I'm not seeing how's it could possibly be a Bad Thing for an  
optional checksum to be included.


- MD5 or SHA are useful only for a small geek community where the  
software is released on a distributed network (Linux, open source  
projects, etc.)


I disagree. Having the MD5 or SHA checksum prevents the problem of  
downloading a file and then having it either corrupted, and/or not  
completely downloaded.



PS: geek is not used qs a dismissive term.


I should hope not, considering this is a highly technical mailing  
list ;)


-Colin
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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Software Projects Description

[Karl Dubost]

Le 06-10-07 à 00:42, Lachlan Hunt a écrit :

Karl Dubost wrote:

Le 5 oct. 06 à 10:08, Stephen Paul Weber a écrit :
Software Downloads (license, download link, title, description,  
rating?)

Might actually start some research and suggest this soon.

Already done. It's called DOAP
http://usefulinc.com/doap


One thing that would actually be very useful for users on a  
download page is a way to markup a check sum (commonly MD5 or SHA)  
and semantically associate it with the file to be downloaded.  I  
couldn't find anything like that covered with DOAP.


MD5 sums are provided for downloads like Apache and PHP.  It would  
be useful so that the browser could take care of checking the file  
when it finishes downloading.  Presently, it requires too much  
manual effort for an average user to even bother figuring out how  
to check it.


- The browser *could* but doesn't for now.
- How many common public softwares (downloadable from a Web page) do  
MD5 or SHA?

- The average user will never do MD5
not, because it is too much effort
but he or she is not a geek.
- MD5 or SHA are useful only for a small geek community where the  
software is released on a distributed network (Linux, open source  
projects, etc.)

- Distribution modes are
- OS built-in (Debian, Apple, Windows, etc)
- Softwares built-in (Check Updates)
- Web pages (open source software, creator site)

On the topic of distribution, RPMfind for Linux is working with RDF.
http://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/rpmfind/

PS: geek is not used qs a dismissive term.

--
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
  QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
 *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




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[uf-discuss] licensing

[Mike Linksvayer]

Creative Commons has been using and encouraging use of
http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-license for awhile.  As noted by Evan
on http://microformats.org/wiki/rellicense-issues "It's not clear how to
associate a license with part of a page, such as an image or embedded
object in the page".

I'm interested in addressing this issue and others of concern to CC,
namely attribution.  Tantek was kind enough to help me begin to think
about these things in the context of microformats.  Whiteboard notes
mostly legible at high resolution at
http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/262460832/

My guess is that many CC use cases will eventually fall under the still
in development http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info but given that
copyright is kind of squirrely I'm going to start setting out a
licensing rationale and examples separately at
http://microformats.org/wiki/licensing and
http://microformats.org/wiki/licensing-examples per Tantek's advice.

Just a heads up.  Feel free to collaborate with or rebuke me here on on
IRC ('mlinksva' as jibot painfully announces to anyone who does not yet
have a jibot mental filter).

-- 
  http://wiki.creativecommons.org/User:Mike_Linksvayer

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[uf-discuss] uFs on mailing list

[Andy Mabbett]

uFs are being discussed on the "w3c-wai-ig" mailing list, starting with
my post, at:

 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2006OctDec/0016.html

-- 
Andy Mabbett
Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

Free Our Data:  
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Ryan King]

It's like Unix pipes 2.0. This time with more ajax and rounded  
corners. :D


-ryan

On Oct 7, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Benjamin West wrote:


Wow.  Nice job all around!
Here's my added twist to it.  I took the URI Andy just posted, and
sent it through lm orchard's  xstlproc on the web to fetch my "rss to
hyperscope" xslt and transform it.  Since he's got hyperscope on his
host, the document displays just fine.

Incredible stuff.



Ben

On 10/7/06, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,  
Stephen

Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>Wow... this converter has never been through a full-scale test  
before

>(only tested on my own pages)... so ya... that shouldn't happen.  I
>think I may know the problem, and will try to fix it soon :)  Thanks
>for finding all this stuff!

I'd like to thank Stephen publicly, as I have done in private e-mail,
for the sterling work he's done, resolving these and other issues, as
can be seen in:




--
Andy Mabbett
Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  www.no2id.net/>


Free Our Data:  
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Ryan King
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Re: [uf-discuss] Idea: beginners/getting started list

[Chris Messina]

I set up this separate wiki a little while back to try to cultivate
this kind of entry-level information:

http://microformats.pbwiki.com/

I haven't had much time to maintain it (go figure) but it could be a
place to have, maybe 5-6 pages that try to give publishers some very
simply ways to make use of microformats in their projects *today*.

Though I'm not necessarily all about watering things down, I do think
that we need to some red pills for folks just getting started with
microformats... or who are not yet convinced.

Anyway, I second the idea of a lesser list and wouldn't mind hanging
out on it. It certainly only needs a few of us, I imagine, to pitch in
from time to time, so it shouldn't be a drag on the main list -- nor
should it end up in no-use list limbo land.

Chris


On 10/9/06, Chris Ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Andy Mabbett said:
[-deletia-]
> I've done some work on:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/introduction
>
> which seemed as good a place as any, to start.
[-deletia-]

Looks great! That's exactly what I imagined.

--
Chris Ball
mail - chris [at] rubal [dot] co [dot] uk
irc - blueNine: #web, #lugradio,#multipack and #microformats on
irc.freenode.net

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Citizen Provocateur &
 Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable[X] ask first   [ ] private
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Re: [uf-discuss] Idea: beginners/getting started list

[Chris Ball]

Andy Mabbett said:
[-deletia-]
> I've done some work on:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/introduction
>
> which seemed as good a place as any, to start.
[-deletia-]

Looks great! That's exactly what I imagined.

-- 
Chris Ball
mail - chris [at] rubal [dot] co [dot] uk
irc - blueNine: #web, #lugradio,#multipack and #microformats on
irc.freenode.net

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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Form Fields

[Scott Reynen]

On Oct 5, 2006, at 9:20 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote:


I'd prefer to say that an hCard with missing elements *is* an hCard,
it's just invalid.  It's like saying that a web page that's missing
its  is invalid, rather than saying it's not HTML.


Yeah, after thinking about it more, I don't really think this really  
matters as much as I did before.  Worst case scenario we get a bunch  
of unintentionally partial hCards where half the data gets ignored  
because it's in form inputs.  And partial data is still better than  
no data.  I do, however, still have a concern about this:



"or if those value attributes are blank and you have contact
data, this would be a good place to paste it."


An existing parser wouldn't at all need to know about this, it would
need to say, quite rightly, that the hCard wasn't valid and not try
and do stuff with it.

However, if I was writing a 'smart pasting' application, there's
already a whole rich semantic structure in hCard that would let me
immediately work out that, for instance, a certain [EMAIL PROTECTED]"text"]
is expecing my given-name.


How would an application know whether the following should be parsed  
as a blank additional name, or filled in with a previously supplied  
given name?




Or is there no difference between stating that a property is blank,  
and not stating it at all?


Peace,
Scott

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Phone number links (Was: [uf-discuss] Potential accessibility spin-off from hCard)

[Scott Reynen]

On Oct 8, 2006, at 3:37 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:

Phone numbers have a URI identifier of "tel" [1], useful for  
protocol handlers that understand

VOIP or faxes.

eg:

Bob Jonkman, class="tel" href="tel:+1-416-555-

1212">+1-416-555-1212


FYI, Skype is promoting callto: links [1], which seem to do the same  
thing, as well as skype: links [2], which are obviously specific to  
their product.  I wrote a Greasemonkey script that wraps callto:  
links around tel values.  It's GPL and could be easily changed to use  
tel: (or skype: or whatever) instead.


[1] http://support.skype.com/index.php? 
_a=knowledgebase&_j=questiondetails&_i=108

[2] http://www.skype.com/share/buttons/advanced.html
[3] http://greasemonkey.makedatamakesense.com/callto_tel/

Peace,
Scott

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