subject:"\[uf\-discuss\] Tentative proposal for What's New listings"

In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen
Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

For the first item, it didn't help that your page was not quite valid
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westmidlandbirdclub.com%2Fnew.htm,
however I think I have fixed it now anyway and got around that :)

blush

Oops!

I'd closed an a twice. Fixed, to now, though.

I wonder why no-on has written an FTP client, with an HTML validator
built in...

The url must have the xn_auth=no in it (ning hosting), but I have
removed the stupid submit=Go, the feed validator seems to be accepting
it fine.

I'm getting errors for both feeds, on the validator. Using:

http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php?xn_auth=nourl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westmidlandbirdclub.com%2Fnew.htm

in:

http://feedvalidator.org/

gives:

http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fxoxotools.ni
ng.com%2Fhatom2rss.php%3Fxn_auth%3Dno%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252F
www.westmidlandbirdclub.com%252Fnew.htm

(aka http://tinyurl.com/mrbf4)

This feed does not validate.

line 121, column 66: guid values must not be duplicated within a
feed: http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/ladywalk/latest.htm (19
occurrences)
guidhttp://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/ladywalk/latest.
htm/guid

In addition, this feed has issues that may cause problems for
some users. We recommend fixing these issues.

line 245, column 44: title should not contain HTML: quot; (6
occurrences)
Friendsamp;quot; section of our links page.

line 389, column 3: item should contain a guid element

and for:

http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php?xn_auth=nourl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westmidlandbirdclub.com%2Fladywalk%2Flatest.htm

I get:

This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We
recommend fixing these problems.

line 17, column 3: item should contain a guid element (38
occurrences)

line 74, column 17: description should not contain relative URL
references: ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm rel=bookmark
title=letter in Bird Life magazine

line 100, column 46: Implausible date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 23:59:59
+ (8 occurrences)

The second page seems to be coming through fine now as well.

I'm still getting just the one date (in FireFox's live bookmarks) and
an XML Parse error (in Sage).

According to my understanding of hAtom, the title of the abbr tag in
your page is the date and the contents is the title, which is how the
processor treats it.

From source code (simplified):

abbr class=updated entry-title title=2006-09-2020th/abbr

You're serving:

title20th: /title

pubDateTue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +/pubDate

(note also trailing space in title)

I would expect

title2006-09-20/title

pubDateTue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +/pubDate

Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal

That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.

let me know if there's any other issues :)

Oh, I will!

Speaking of which...

You seem to be inserting an odd character, for instance in the first
item on the What's New page (shown here as an asterisk):

titleRecent sightings at our*Ladywalk Reserve./title

which shows up as a square in live bookmarks.

Thanks for your interest.

--
Andy Mabbett
Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/

Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-26 Thread Ciaran McNulty


On 9/26/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 pubDateTue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +/pubDate

As I said, the title=blah  on the abbr  is assumed to go with the
date, not the title.


Am I right in thinking that while other microformats specify that
ABBR titles should replace the literal content for parsing, hAtom
only specifies this for dates?

What is the reasoning behind this?

-Ciaran McNulty
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

I'm getting errors for both feeds, on the validator. Using:

http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php?xn_auth=nourl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westmidlandbirdclub.com%2Fnew.htm

in:

http://feedvalidator.org/

gives:

http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fxoxotools.ni
ng.com%2Fhatom2rss.php%3Fxn_auth%3Dno%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252F
www.westmidlandbirdclub.com%252Fnew.htm

(aka http://tinyurl.com/mrbf4)

This feed does not validate.

The converter currently blindly uses the permalink value as GUID, if
you use the same permalink twice in your hAtom you get this error. It
does not affect most feedreaders, but if you can't change your page
and this is a big issue, I can try hacking a GUID creator into the
code for you :)

In addition, this feed has issues that may cause problems for
some users. We recommend fixing these issues.

line 245, column 44: title should not contain HTML: quot; (6
occurrences)
Friendsamp;quot; section of our links page.

The title is drawn directly from entry-title. This is not actually
invalid RSS, it's just something they don't reccomend, but if you want
it changed, change your hAtom.

line 389, column 3: item should contain a guid element

Again, GUID is blindly drawn from permalink. No permalink, no GUID.
This again is not invalid, as the results say, only disreccomended.

and for:

http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php?xn_auth=nourl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westmidlandbirdclub.com%2Fladywalk%2Flatest.htm

I get:

This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We
recommend fixing these problems.

Again, none of these are actual invalidities

line 17, column 3: item should contain a guid element (38
occurrences)

see above

line 74, column 17: description should not contain relative URL
references: ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm rel=bookmark
title=letter in Bird Life magazine

This is in your code... nor is it invalid, just not perfect. Not sure
if making this an absolute URL (since it's escaped HTML) is really the
converter's job

line 100, column 46: Implausible date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 23:59:59
+ (8 occurrences)

This is probably because you use a different date format in your hAtom
(Y-m-d) instead of the full hAtom-reccomended datestamp
(Y-m-D\TH:i:sP). My converter tries to work with alternate date
formats, but it seems that on a few of your dates Y-m-d is being
interpreted differently... I didn't write strtotime, but this code has
been tested with the full datestamp. If in doubt, use that.

The second page seems to be coming through fine now as well.

I'm still getting just the one date (in FireFox's live bookmarks) and
an XML Parse error (in Sage).

Firefox live bookmarks only show items that have a link. Only one
item in that feed has a rel=bookmark, so only one shows up. 2rss and
other rss2txt stuff show all items just fine.

According to my understanding of hAtom, the title of the abbr tag in
your page is the date and the contents is the title, which is how the
processor treats it.

From source code (simplified):

abbr class=updated entry-title title=2006-09-2020th/abbr

You're serving:

title20th: /title

pubDateTue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +/pubDate

(note also trailing space in title)

The trailing space has been fixed. The rest of it is correct
according to my understanding of the hAtom spec.

I would expect

title2006-09-20/title

pubDateTue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +/pubDate

As I said, the title=blah on the abbr is assumed to go with the
date, not the title.

Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal

That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.

Why? It's 100% irrelevant to microformats. ATOM itself requires a
full timestamp. Most formats do. hAtom has it's own datestamp
requirements. The converter's job is to make sure the RSS
requirements are met... which has nothing to do with you. Your job is
to meet hAtom, the converter can change the date format just fine. It
has no bearing on the hAtom spec, and no human being will ever see the
date as it is in the RSS unless for some reason they read the code or
have a feedreader that likes that dateformat.

let me know if there's any other issues :)

Oh, I will!

Speaking of which...

You seem to be inserting an odd character, for instance in the first
item on the What's New page (shown here as an asterisk):

titleRecent sightings at our*Ladywalk

Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings


No... at least in my understanding the title attribute only replaces
the literal content on certain fields (such as dates) or when there is
only one textual field (such as if this were only a title), never on
something that is both date (title attr) and title (content)...

On 9/26/06, Ciaran McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 9/26/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  pubDateTue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +/pubDate

 As I said, the title=blah  on the abbr  is assumed to go with the
 date, not the title.

Am I right in thinking that while other microformats specify that
ABBR titles should replace the literal content for parsing, hAtom
only specifies this for dates?

What is the reasoning behind this?

-Ciaran McNulty
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--
- Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer
http://www.awriterz.org

MSN/GTalk/Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ/AIM: 103332966
NSA: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-26 Thread David Janes


Quite honestly, I'm still mulling this one over. I note:

- I've never seen it in the wild
- something feels off to me about hiding human readable content in an ABBR
- I can think off some places where it would be useful though

I'd be much happier if there was a general rulle across all
microformats that said this was the way to handle ABBRs, either
universally or in these specific cases.

So where does that leave us? Out of hAtom 0.1 and mulling it over for hAtom 0.2.

Regards, etc...
David

On 9/26/06, Ciaran McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 9/26/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  pubDateTue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +/pubDate

 As I said, the title=blah  on the abbr  is assumed to go with the
 date, not the title.

Am I right in thinking that while other microformats specify that
ABBR titles should replace the literal content for parsing, hAtom
only specifies this for dates?

What is the reasoning behind this?

-Ciaran McNulty
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

The converter currently blindly uses the permalink value as GUID, if
you use the same permalink twice in your hAtom you get this error.

Is that wise? Using the same link twice is allowed, isn't it?

  It
does not affect most feedreaders, but if you can't change your page
and this is a big issue, I can try hacking a GUID creator into the
code for you :)

Thank you. You could always append the date-time to the URL.

title should not contain HTML: quot; (6
 occurrences)
   Friendsamp;quot; section of our links page.

The title is drawn directly from entry-title.  This is not actually
invalid RSS, it's just something they don't reccomend, but if you want
it changed, change your hAtom.

By change my hAtom, what do you mean? Surely you're not suggesting I
replace my escaped ampersands, with invalid ampersand characters?

Since there will be other people who use escaped entities, wouldn't it
be better for you, to deal with them by unescaping them?

 line 389, column 3: item should contain a guid element

Again, GUID is blindly drawn from permalink.  No permalink, no GUID.
This again is not invalid, as the results say, only disreccomended.

Again, is that wise? You could always use the URL of the source page
(+date-time) if no linking URL is present.

 This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We
 recommend fixing these problems.

Again, none of these are actual invalidities

No, but I thought you'd want to know of them anyway (be generous in what
you receive strict in what you send...)

 line 74, column 17: description should not contain relative URL
 references: ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm rel=bookmark
 title=letter in Bird Life magazine

This is in your code... nor is it invalid, just not perfect.

Hey, who are you calling an imperfect coder! ;-)

  Not sure
if making this an absolute URL (since it's escaped HTML) is really the
converter's job

Whose then?

If you see ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm on a page on the web,
it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.

 line 100, column 46: Implausible date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 23:59:59
 + (8 occurrences)

This is probably because you use a different date format in your hAtom
(Y-m-d) instead of the full hAtom-reccomended datestamp
(Y-m-D\TH:i:sP).

Tath's not my reading of teh spec:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Updated

which says:

use the datetime-design-pattern to encode

then in turn:

http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern

says:

add a title attribute to the abbr element with the machine
readable ISO8601 datetime or date as the value

and, according to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Years

the format -mm-dd is allowable.


  My converter tries to work with alternate date
formats, but it seems that on a few of your dates Y-m-d is being
interpreted differently...

As 1969!?!

I didn't write strtotime, but this code has
been tested with the full datestamp.  If in doubt, use that.

I'm not in doubt ;-)

 The second page seems to be coming through fine now as well.

 I'm still getting just the one date (in  FireFox's live bookmarks) and
 an XML Parse error (in Sage).

Firefox live bookmarks only show items that have a link.

Bummer, I'll make a separate post about that.

Nonetheless, Sage is now showing some very odd results (do you see that,
or shall I flickr a screenshot?)


 From source code (simplified):

 abbr class=updated entry-title title=2006-09-2020th/abbr

 You're serving:

 title20th:  /title

 pubDateTue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +/pubDate

correct
according to my understanding of the hAtom spec.

I see that's being discussed separately.

 Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
 format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal

 That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.

Why?  It's 100% irrelevant to microformats.

Not if the hAtom spec says you can do something, which then leads to
unexpected, or even bizarre, results.

  ATOM itself requires a
full timestamp.  Most formats do.  hAtom has it's own datestamp
requirements.  The converter's job is to make sure the RSS
requirements are met... which has nothing to do with you.  Your job is
to meet hAtom, the converter can change the date format just fine.  It
has no bearing on the hAtom spec, and no human being will ever see the
date as it is in the RSS unless for some reason they read the code or
have a feedreader that likes that dateformat.

Well, that's a big unless (sage, for instance shows the time).

In fact, you're inserting data into the feed, which isn't on my page!

 You seem to be inserting an odd character

I've fixed this now, thanks for the heads-up :)

A pleasure (and in my interest!). Thank you again

Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings


The converter currently blindly uses the permalink value as GUID, if
you use the same permalink twice in your hAtom you get this error.

Is that wise? Using the same link twice is allowed, isn't it?


This is a converter, not a standardiser.  It assumes that your hAtom
is equivalent to legal RSS.  my stdRSS tool (on the same site) DOES
generate GUIDs, I just never bothered with it in the converter.  Since
you seem interested, however, I will definately look into copying over
some of that code :)


title should not contain HTML: quot; (6
 occurrences)
   Friendsamp;quot; section of our links page.

The title is drawn directly from entry-title.  This is not actually
invalid RSS, it's just something they don't reccomend, but if you want
it changed, change your hAtom.

By change my hAtom, what do you mean? Surely you're not suggesting I
replace my escaped ampersands, with invalid ampersand characters?

Since there will be other people who use escaped entities, wouldn't it
be better for you, to deal with them by unescaping them?


I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS title AND
in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
entry-title (ie, using the  character there instead of quot; would
be perfectly legal and solve the problem, the escaped ampersand is my
code escaping out your HTML entities, which the validator then finds
bad because there should be no enitities in a title).


 line 389, column 3: item should contain a guid element

Again, GUID is blindly drawn from permalink.  No permalink, no GUID.
This again is not invalid, as the results say, only disreccomended.

Again, is that wise? You could always use the URL of the source page
(+date-time) if no linking URL is present.


See above, I'll look at it.


 This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We
 recommend fixing these problems.

Again, none of these are actual invalidities

No, but I thought you'd want to know of them anyway (be generous in what
you receive strict in what you send...)


:)


 line 74, column 17: description should not contain relative URL
 references: ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm rel=bookmark
 title=letter in Bird Life magazine

This is in your code... nor is it invalid, just not perfect.

Hey, who are you calling an imperfect coder! ;-)

  Not sure
if making this an absolute URL (since it's escaped HTML) is really the
converter's job

Whose then?

If you see ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm on a page on the web,
it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.


Hmm... you may have convinced me, although I'm not sure how to go
about this.  So far the converter has been assuming that the hAtom was
structured according to feed design rules (ie, only use absolute
URLs), because that's what I do.  I should probably look at adding
some code to detect a tags with relative URLs though...


 line 100, column 46: Implausible date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 23:59:59
 + (8 occurrences)

This is probably because you use a different date format in your hAtom
(Y-m-d) instead of the full hAtom-reccomended datestamp
(Y-m-D\TH:i:sP).

Tath's not my reading of teh spec:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Updated

which says:

use the datetime-design-pattern to encode

then in turn:

http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern

says:

add a title attribute to the abbr element with the machine
readable ISO8601 datetime or date as the value

and, according to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Years

the format -mm-dd is allowable.


Ah, well, whatever the case may be, I did finally find a minor bug in
the date processor, so this should be fixed now.


Nonetheless, Sage is now showing some very odd results (do you see that,
or shall I flickr a screenshot?)


screenshot, I don't have Sage installed anymore, haven't for awhile


 Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
 format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal

 That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.

Why?  It's 100% irrelevant to microformats.

Not if the hAtom spec says you can do something, which then leads to
unexpected, or even bizarre, results.


I have finally figured out what you were talking about.  The erroneous
data was part of the bug in the date processor.  The full timestamp is
still there, but it now is properly representative of your data :)


--
- Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer
http://www.awriterz.org

MSN/GTalk/Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ/AIM: 103332966
NSA: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-26 Thread brian suda

Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
 If you see ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm on a page on the web,
 it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.

 Hmm... you may have convinced me, although I'm not sure how to go
 about this.  So far the converter has been assuming that the hAtom was
 structured according to feed design rules (ie, only use absolute
 URLs), because that's what I do.  I should probably look at adding
 some code to detect a tags with relative URLs though...

--- i'm not sure what the underlying code you are using is, but in the
hg.microformats.org there is a pretty mature XSLT to build and absolute
href. The other option, is that ATOM uses the XML:BASE attribute, so if
you could look for a base or html xml:base in the HTML and use that
in the conversion?

  Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
  format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal
 
  That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.
 
 Why?  It's 100% irrelevant to microformats.

 Not if the hAtom spec says you can do something, which then leads to
 unexpected, or even bizarre, results.

 I have finally figured out what you were talking about.  The erroneous
 data was part of the bug in the date processor.  The full timestamp is
 still there, but it now is properly representative of your data :)
again, not sure your underlying code, but i have been burned (plenty of
times) by date processing in XSLT (there is no built in date-time
functions) so i have split out the datetime.xsl and that should/can be
pulled into any other XSLT to process dates. It's not prefect but the
more people who use it, the more bugs we will find and fix.

-brian
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen
Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 The converter currently blindly uses the permalink value as GUID, if
 you use the same permalink twice in your hAtom you get this error.

 Is that wise? Using the same link twice is allowed, isn't it?

This is a converter, not a standardiser.  It assumes that your hAtom
is equivalent to legal RSS.  my stdRSS tool (on the same site) DOES
generate GUIDs, I just never bothered with it in the converter.  Since
you seem interested, however, I will definately look into copying over
some of that code :)

Thank you.

 title should not contain HTML: quot; (6
  occurrences)
Friendsamp;quot; section of our links page.
 
 The title is drawn directly from entry-title.  This is not actually
 invalid RSS, it's just something they don't reccomend, but if you want
 it changed, change your hAtom.

 By change my hAtom, what do you mean? Surely you're not suggesting I
 replace my escaped ampersands, with invalid ampersand characters?

 Since there will be other people who use escaped entities, wouldn't it
 be better for you, to deal with them by unescaping them?

I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS title AND
in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
entry-title (ie, using the  character

What character?

there instead of quot; would
be perfectly legal and solve the problem, the escaped ampersand is my
code escaping out your HTML entities, which the validator then finds
bad because there should be no enitities in a title).

it seems reasonable to me that, if the HTML in question contains 
then the corresponding title component of the feed should contain
amp;. Why is that not the case?

 If you see ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm on a page on the web,
 it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.

Hmm... you may have convinced me, although I'm not sure how to go
about this.  So far the converter has been assuming that the hAtom was
structured according to feed design rules (ie, only use absolute
URLs), because that's what I do.

But it's not a requirement of hAtom, is it?

I should probably look at adding
some code to detect a tags with relative URLs though...

Thank you again.

 Nonetheless, Sage is now showing some very odd results (do you see that,
 or shall I flickr a screenshot?)

screenshot, I don't have Sage installed anymore, haven't for awhile

Thanks, but one of your other fixes seems to have resolved that ;-)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards:  http://www.no2id.net/

Free Our Data:  http://www.freeourdata.org.uk
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings


I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS title AND
in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
entry-title (ie, using the  character
What character?


the quotation-mark charater, which is legal everywhere in XHTML except
inside an attribute.



there instead of quot; would
be perfectly legal and solve the problem, the escaped ampersand is my
code escaping out your HTML entities, which the validator then finds
bad because there should be no enitities in a title).

it seems reasonable to me that, if the HTML in question contains 
then the corresponding title component of the feed should contain
amp;. Why is that not the case?


It is the case, and that's exactly what the script does.  The feed
validator just warns you about it, that's all, it's perfectly valid.


 If you see ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm on a page on the web,
 it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.

Hmm... you may have convinced me, although I'm not sure how to go
about this.  So far the converter has been assuming that the hAtom was
structured according to feed design rules (ie, only use absolute
URLs), because that's what I do.

But it's not a requirement of hAtom, is it?


Certainly not, it was more of a shortsightedness on my part.


I should probably look at adding
some code to detect a tags with relative URLs though...

Thank you again.


:)



 Nonetheless, Sage is now showing some very odd results (do you see that,
 or shall I flickr a screenshot?)

screenshot, I don't have Sage installed anymore, haven't for awhile

Thanks, but one of your other fixes seems to have resolved that ;-)


good


One other clarification to those asking, this code is in no way built
on XSLT (a technology with which I am only vaguly farmiliar) and works
in pure PHP.  Thus it does not currently really even see what tags are
inside entry-content (it just escapes them to text), but I will code
around this and get the resolution working :)

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen
Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS title AND
 in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
 entry-title (ie, using the  character
 What character?

the quotation-mark charater, which is legal everywhere in XHTML except
inside an attribute.

Doh! I thought we were talking about amp;.

Note though, that  and quot; are not the same.

AIUI, under uF principles, I should not have to change my existing
content, to wrap it in uF.
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings


In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen
Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS title AND
 in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
 entry-title (ie, using the  character
 What character?

the quotation-mark charater, which is legal everywhere in XHTML except
inside an attribute.

Doh! I thought we were talking about amp;.

Note though, that  and quot; are not the same.

AIUI, under uF principles, I should not have to change my existing
content, to wrap it in uF.


You don't... as I keep pointing out, this 'issue' the validator brings
up is not a validity issue, but an issue of personal preference.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-25 Thread Stephen Paul Weber


should be fixed :)

On 9/22/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

The first http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php is my site, I will
look into making your requested tweak to the script :)

No charge ;-)

(Seriously - thank you. Please let me/ us know when it's done.)

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-25 Thread Andy Mabbett

In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen
Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes


On 9/22/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
 Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 The first http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php is my site, I will
 look into making your requested tweak to the script :)

should be fixed :)

Thank you. Viewing the feed for:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

using Sage (FireFox extension), I see seven entries - six are ours, but
the last, with no title, appears to be an entry for the whole page. Any
ideas why, and why only six events are discovered?
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-25 Thread Andy Mabbett

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 The first http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php is my site, I will
 look into making your requested tweak to the script :)

should be fixed :)

Thank you. Viewing the feed for:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

using Sage (FireFox extension), I see seven entries

It's less happy, though, with the feed for:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/ladywalk/latest.htm

where the only entry it detects only the one for 8 September, with a URL
- for the rest, it ignores them, and even for the 8th it ignores
entry-content.

It's also taking the entry-title from the contents of the 'abbr' tag,
rather than its title-attribute.

For the What's New page, it's taking the published-date of, say,
2006-09-16 and converting it to the overly-precise:

Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:00:00 +

I'm also not clear why your results are in the form (line breaks
inserted for clarity):

http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php?xn_auth=no
url=http%3A//www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm
submit=Go

and not, say:

http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php?xn_auth=no
url=http%3A//www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm
.rss

They certainly upset the RSS validator:

http://www.feedvalidator.org/

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-25 Thread Stephen Paul Weber


For the first item, it didn't help that your page was not quite valid
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westmidlandbirdclub.com%2Fnew.htm,
however I think I have fixed it now anyway and got around that :)

The url must have the xn_auth=no in it (ning hosting), but I have
removed the stupid submit=Go, the feed validator seems to be accepting
it fine.

The second page seems to be coming through fine now as well.
According to my understanding of hAtom, the title of the abbr tag in
your page is the date and the contents is the title, which is how the
processor treats it.

Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal (although many
readers may accept it, just as my script will read most datestamps for
updated although hAtom specifies one specific one)

let me know if there's any other issues :)

On 9/25/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 The first http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php is my site, I will
 look into making your requested tweak to the script :)

should be fixed :)

Thank you. Viewing the feed for:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

using Sage (FireFox extension), I see seven entries

It's less happy, though, with the feed for:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/ladywalk/latest.htm

where the only entry it detects only the one for 8 September, with a URL
- for the rest, it ignores them, and even for the 8th it ignores
entry-content.

It's also taking the entry-title from the contents of the 'abbr' tag,
rather than its title-attribute.

For the What's New page, it's taking the published-date of, say,
2006-09-16 and converting it to the overly-precise:

Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:00:00 +

I'm also not clear why your results are in the form (line breaks
inserted for clarity):

http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php?xn_auth=no
url=http%3A//www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm
submit=Go

and not, say:

http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php?xn_auth=no
url=http%3A//www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm
.rss

They certainly upset the RSS validator:

http://www.feedvalidator.org/

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-22 Thread Andy Mabbett

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew
Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

[on why the use of rel=bookmark links in :

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

might be incorrect)

I'd be grateful for a consensus, or at least others' thoughts, on this,
please, before I mark-up the rest of the page.

Your ultimate purpose is to syndicate updates to the site, yes?

Yes.

hAtom is perfect for this.  It might require you to tweak the format
slightly. One possibility:

  tr class=hentry
 th scope=rowabbr class=updated title=2006-09-2121
September/abbr/th
 tdspan class=entry-titleUpdated Bibliography/entry-
title: span class=entry-contentDetails and images of the two
revised editions of a href=biblio/worcs.htm#BirdsOfMalvernBirds  of
the Malvern District/a added to our bibliography/span./td
  /tr

  tr class=hentry
th scope=rowabbr class=updated title=2006-09-2121
September/abbr/th
tdspan class=entry-titleSeptember 2006 Bulletin/span:
span class=entry-contentOur a href=../bulletin/
index.htm#b434September 2006 Bulletin/a is out now./span/td
  /tr

Thank you, but that simply isn't going top happen. I'm not going to
start repeating content on the page, just o shoehorn it into an
otherwise-incompatible microformat. I thought the whole point of
microformats is that there should be no need to do so?
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-22 Thread David Janes


Honestly, exactly right. hAtom works for what you're doing; don't get
over caught up in the meaning of bookmark or whatever. If could
potentially create an RSS/Atom feed for the page, you'll be able to
put hAtom markup on it.

Regards, etc...
David

On 9/22/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thank you, but that simply isn't going top happen. I'm not going to
start repeating content on the page, just o shoehorn it into an
otherwise-incompatible microformat. I thought the whole point of
microformats is that there should be no need to do so?

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Re: Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-22 Thread Chris Messina


For hatom converters, see Chris Casciano's work:

http://placenamehere.com/mf/

Chris

On 9/22/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

All the '@' stuff is derived elements that are for ... other purposes ...

I believe there's someone doing hAtom - feed converters; I've avoided
that (even though it's a very useful service) because I don't want to
push the meme that the purpose of hAtom is to compete with existing
syndication formats.

Regards, etc...
David

On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In message
 [EMAIL PROTECTED], David
 Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

  http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

  The AUMP http://tools.blogmatrix.com/extract/ gives Python errors,
  which, I presume are to do with it, rather than my mark-up. If not, then
  they're not very user friendly!

 Fixed

 Thank you. That was quick!

 How does it look now ?
 http://tinyurl.com/ntorg

 Better.

 How does my markup look to you?

 Why are the parent classes (center t70 - legacy!) captured?



 Is there an on-line tool which will enable me to enter the above URL and
 thereby subscribe to an RSS feed?

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-22 Thread Andy Mabbett

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

How does this look:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

I've only marked up the first two entries for 21 September.

I've now done the lot, and moved the results to:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

and the continuation page:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/site/new-2006.htm

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-22 Thread Stephen Paul Weber


rel=bookmark translates to the link in RSS... so whatever you want
in link, use rel=bookmark on

On 9/22/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew
Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

[on why the use of rel=bookmark links in :

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

might be incorrect)

I'd be grateful for a consensus, or at least others' thoughts, on this,
please, before I mark-up the rest of the page.

Your ultimate purpose is to syndicate updates to the site, yes?

Yes.

hAtom is perfect for this.  It might require you to tweak the format
slightly. One possibility:

  tr class=hentry
 th scope=rowabbr class=updated title=2006-09-2121
September/abbr/th
 tdspan class=entry-titleUpdated Bibliography/entry-
title: span class=entry-contentDetails and images of the two
revised editions of a href=biblio/worcs.htm#BirdsOfMalvernBirds  of
the Malvern District/a added to our bibliography/span./td
  /tr

  tr class=hentry
th scope=rowabbr class=updated title=2006-09-2121
September/abbr/th
tdspan class=entry-titleSeptember 2006 Bulletin/span:
span class=entry-contentOur a href=../bulletin/
index.htm#b434September 2006 Bulletin/a is out now./span/td
  /tr

Thank you, but that simply isn't going top happen. I'm not going to
start repeating content on the page, just o shoehorn it into an
otherwise-incompatible microformat. I thought the whole point of
microformats is that there should be no need to do so?
--
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-22 Thread Stephen Paul Weber


The first http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php is my site, I will
look into making your requested tweak to the script :)

On 9/22/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen
Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

Try:

 http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php

Thank you.

(has a slight problem with
 your page because you have tags in your title, which isn't allowed in
 RSS... try putting BOTH entry-title AND entry-content on the data :)
 )

That would bloat it somewhat. Perhaps it would be better if the tool
simply ignored anchor tags (but not their content)?


 or

 http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/hatom/ (no idea how it'll
 work, supports both RSS and ATOM [ick] output)

That seems to barf, on:


http://tools.microformatic.com/transcode/RSS/hatom/http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

(aka http://tinyurl.com/keb82)

I suspect that it's expecting something more like:


http://tools.microformatic.com/transcode/RSS/hatom/http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new/

(i.e. without .htm)


Are either of those your sites, or should I contact them separately?

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-22 Thread Andy Mabbett

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

The first http://xoxotools.ning.com/hatom2rss.php is my site, I will
look into making your requested tweak to the script :)

No charge ;-)

(Seriously - thank you. Please let me/ us know when it's done.)

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[uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings


Many websites have a What's New page. Here's one I maintain:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

I don't have the resources to provide that data as an RSS feed (I fudge
it, and offer an RSS feed of a less-frequently-updated mailing list);
yet I'm irritated to find similar page on sites I use, and not be able
to get them in RSS.

Would there be any mileage in a microformat for marking-up each entry,
so that they could be extracted by user-agents, and so that  third-
party utilities could compile RSS feeds (or indeed do other things with
them)?

Other such pages are:

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/whatsnew (no RSS)

http://www.hse.gov.uk/new/index.htm (has RSS)

and most of those found at:

 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22what%27s+new%22+%22on+this+website+%
22

Obvious components include an hCalendar, some text, and a URL.

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-21 Thread David Janes


Jeez, yes, I think this would be an ideal application for hAtom [1].
Marking up entries like an RSS feed, mutter mutter mutter...

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom

On 9/21/06, Matthew Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sep 21, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

 Would there be any mileage in a microformat for marking-up each entry,
 so that they could be extracted by user-agents, and so that  third-
 party utilities could compile RSS feeds (or indeed do other things
 with
 them)?

Andy,

Take a look at the hAtom draft. This should fit your needs.

- Matthew

--
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew
Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

On Sep 21, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

 Would there be any mileage in a microformat for marking-up each entry,
 so that they could be extracted by user-agents, and so that  third-
 party utilities could compile RSS feeds (or indeed do other things
with
 them)?

Take a look at the hAtom draft. This should fit your needs.

Thank you, but if you look at:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

(or the other examples I provided) you can see that (unless I've
misunderstood the spec) hAtom seems to be overkill.

There's no author on each entry, which is a requirement for hAtom -
nor can I see why there should be, since every entry on the page has the
same author.

There is no headline/ entry pair; just a single piece of text describing
the change.

All I need to include, to convey my content, is:

body class=whatsnew [1]

h1 class=author vcard
span class=fn org[Orgasnition name]/span
/h1

[...]

tr class=new-item [2]
th scope=row class=hcalendar
abbr class=dtstart title=YYDDMM[date]/th

td class=description [3]
a class=url href=[URL]Blah blah/a
/td
/tr

with multiple table rows.


[1] or class=feed, or whatever; if not body, could be a div

[2] or entry ?

[3] or entry-content ?
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-21 Thread David Janes


Just specifiy an author for the page in an address block and you're set.

Regards, etc...

On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew
Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

On Sep 21, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

 Would there be any mileage in a microformat for marking-up each entry,
 so that they could be extracted by user-agents, and so that  third-
 party utilities could compile RSS feeds (or indeed do other things
with
 them)?

Take a look at the hAtom draft. This should fit your needs.

Thank you, but if you look at:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

(or the other examples I provided) you can see that (unless I've
misunderstood the spec) hAtom seems to be overkill.

There's no author on each entry, which is a requirement for hAtom -
nor can I see why there should be, since every entry on the page has the
same author.

There is no headline/ entry pair; just a single piece of text describing
the change.

All I need to include, to convey my content, is:

body class=whatsnew [1]

h1 class=author vcard
span class=fn org[Orgasnition name]/span
/h1

[...]

tr class=new-item [2]
th scope=row class=hcalendar
abbr class=dtstart title=YYDDMM[date]/th

td class=description [3]
a class=url href=[URL]Blah blah/a
/td
/tr

with multiple table rows.


[1] or class=feed, or whatever; if not body, could be a div

[2] or entry ?

[3] or entry-content ?
--
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-21 Thread Matthew Levine


On Sep 21, 2006, at 3:12 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


Take a look at the hAtom draft. This should fit your needs.


Thank you, but if you look at:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

... hAtom seems to be overkill.

There's no author on each entry, which is a requirement for hAtom -
nor can I see why there should be, since every entry on the page  
has the

same author.


Andy,

According to the hAtom draft [1], if you omit the author property,  
it'll look for the nearest-in-parent [2] address element.  You  
only need to include this once.


There is no headline/ entry pair; just a single piece of text  
describing the change.


Just include that as the title of the entry.  The entry-content  
property isn't required.


Here's a quick stab at your page.  I'm using the published property  
in lieu of updated (if updated is missing, it's assumed to be the  
published date):


  ol class=hfeed
li class=hentry
  h3 class=entry-titleDetails and images of the two revised  
editions of a href=...Birds of the Malvern District/a added to  
our bibliography./h3
  abbr class=published title=2006-09-21T15:00:00-01:0021  
September/abbr

/li
li class=hentry
  h3 class=entry-titleOur a href=...September 2006  
Bulletin/a is out now./h3
  abbr class=published title=2006-09-21T12:00:00-01:0021  
September/abbr

/li
...
  /ol

  ...

  address class=vcard
a class=fn org url href=http:// 
www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/Westmidland Bird Club/a

  /address

You could mark this up as a table as well, but that seems to be  
overkill.


Hope this helps!

- Matthew

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/algorithm-nearest-in-parent

--
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http://www.infocraft.com/


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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

Just specifiy an author for the page in an address block and you're set.

Thank you (to all who've helped).


How does this look:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

I've only marked up the first two entries for 21 September. The address
is in the page footer.

Am I right to use rel=bookmark for the pages which are linked to by
the entries?

The AUMP http://tools.blogmatrix.com/extract/ gives Python errors,
which, I presume are to do with it, rather than my mark-up. If not, then
they're not very user friendly!

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew
Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/new.htm

You could mark this up as a table as well, but that seems to be
overkill.

It already is - and that suits me well.

(Other points noted, thanks.)
-- 
Andy Mabbett
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-21 Thread David Janes


Fixed -- I've been iterating the code quite a bit. How does it look now ?
http://tinyurl.com/ntorg


On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

Just specifiy an author for the page in an address block and you're set.

Thank you (to all who've helped).


How does this look:

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

I've only marked up the first two entries for 21 September. The address
is in the page footer.

Am I right to use rel=bookmark for the pages which are linked to by
the entries?

The AUMP http://tools.blogmatrix.com/extract/ gives Python errors,
which, I presume are to do with it, rather than my mark-up. If not, then
they're not very user friendly!

--
Andy Mabbett
Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards:  http://www.no2id.net/

Free Our Data:  http://www.freeourdata.org.uk
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

2006-09-21 Thread Matthew Levine


On Sep 21, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


How does this look:

  http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

...

Am I right to use rel=bookmark for the pages which are linked to by
the entries?


My understanding is that the permalink (rel=bookmark) should be a  
stable URI for the entry itself (not pages linked from an entry).  An  
appropriate permalink in this case would point to the tr fragment,  
which probably wouldn't make much sense for your page.


- Matthew

--
Infocraft: handcrafted markup for savvy designers.
http://www.infocraft.com/



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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings

In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], David
Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/newATOM.htm

 The AUMP http://tools.blogmatrix.com/extract/ gives Python errors,
 which, I presume are to do with it, rather than my mark-up. If not, then
 they're not very user friendly!

Fixed

Thank you. That was quick!

How does it look now ?
http://tinyurl.com/ntorg

Better.

How does my markup look to you?

Why are the parent classes (center t70 - legacy!) captured?



Is there an on-line tool which will enable me to enter the above URL and
thereby subscribe to an RSS feed?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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Free Our Data:  http://www.freeourdata.org.uk
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for What's New listings