Re: [uf-discuss] W3HTML WG, HTML5, semantics, and so on
On May 13, 2007, at 3:13 AM, Henri Sivonen wrote: On May 11, 2007, at 3:15 PM, John Allsopp wrote: (abbr pattern problems, Clearly, there's a need for markup for the generic pattern of marking up a triple of data presented to humans, the microformat class and a normalized easy-to-parse representation of the data. HTML5 time addresses only one instance of this pattern. I'm not sure it's clear that we need a general mechanism. AFAIK, the only real problem is with datetime fields. Everything else seems to work pretty well now. The problem with using abbr for this pattern is that title='' is intended to be human-readable and the pattern contaminates abbreviation data, so with microformats abbr is now less useful for e.g. non-microformat-aware but abbr-aware screen readers. The question that needs to be asked is: Will microformat producers and consumers be willing to migrate to a replacement of the abbr pattern if one is provided or will they continue to use abbr anyway for backwards compat? There's no way that we'll get 100% of microformat producers to switch to the new mechanism, but with advocacy we can get a large number to upgrade. If producers switch so will consumers (and I'll put it in the test suite, too :D). For example, should HTML 5 define a uf-data='' attribute as a common attribute such that the value of this attribute would be considered in preference over textContent by microformat consumers? Or should HTML 5 just mitigate the damage to the title attribute by defining a boolean attribute title-is-uf='' for flagging title='' attributes not meant for human consumption? I don't think so. This fails to solve a specific problem (solves a general problem that I'm not sure we need to solve). It also encourages hiding data, which is Not a Good Thing(tm). Is it too late to get rid of this? abbr title='uf data'human data/abbr Like I said, we probably won't be able to upgrade 100% of the data in the wild, so consumers will still have to support it, but we can probably get a lot. Would this be accepted by the uf community? span uf-data='uf data'human data/span Like I said, we should focus on specific problems and solutions, of which time does a great job of solving the the datetime-in-abbr- title issue. If not, would this be backwards-compatible with uf consumers? span title='uf data' title-is-ufhuman data/span Consumers would all have to be updated. So while it's backwards compatible with existing content, it isn't future compatible (if you started publishing this before consumers were updated, your content would not be handled correctly). -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] W3HTML WG, HTML5, semantics, and so on
Ryan King wrote: I'm not sure it's clear that we need a general mechanism. AFAIK, the only real problem is with datetime fields. Everything else seems to work pretty well now. Geo information is also problematic. For example, should HTML 5 define a uf-data='' attribute as a common attribute such that the value of this attribute would be considered in preference over textContent by microformat consumers? Or should HTML 5 just mitigate the damage to the title attribute by defining a boolean attribute title-is-uf='' for flagging title='' attributes not meant for human consumption? I don't think so. This fails to solve a specific problem (solves a general problem that I'm not sure we need to solve). It also encourages hiding data, which is Not a Good Thing(tm). How would that encourage more hiding data than the current use of title? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] W3HTML WG, HTML5, semantics, and so on
Thanks Maciej, HTML5 does have new elements, some of which are mainly for semantic purposes, but it does not at present have a copyright element. my bad, no idea where I got that idea from! The current proposal does have a predefined copyright class though. That would be it then. The HTML Working Group (and the WHATWG, which is continuing to operate in parallel) would welcome participation from microformats experts and advocates. Which was kind of what I was hinting at ;-) Mind you, I find the 100 or so emails a week on this mailing list sufficient to keep me occupied, so how to deal with 1000? :-) j ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] W3HTML WG, HTML5, semantics, and so on
On May 11, 2007, at 3:15 PM, John Allsopp wrote: (abbr pattern problems, Clearly, there's a need for markup for the generic pattern of marking up a triple of data presented to humans, the microformat class and a normalized easy-to-parse representation of the data. HTML5 time addresses only one instance of this pattern. The problem with using abbr for this pattern is that title='' is intended to be human-readable and the pattern contaminates abbreviation data, so with microformats abbr is now less useful for e.g. non-microformat-aware but abbr-aware screen readers. The question that needs to be asked is: Will microformat producers and consumers be willing to migrate to a replacement of the abbr pattern if one is provided or will they continue to use abbr anyway for backwards compat? For example, should HTML 5 define a uf-data='' attribute as a common attribute such that the value of this attribute would be considered in preference over textContent by microformat consumers? Or should HTML 5 just mitigate the damage to the title attribute by defining a boolean attribute title-is-uf='' for flagging title='' attributes not meant for human consumption? Is it too late to get rid of this? abbr title='uf data'human data/abbr Would this be accepted by the uf community? span uf-data='uf data'human data/span If not, would this be backwards-compatible with uf consumers? span title='uf data' title-is-ufhuman data/span even with ufs no one uses profiles so HTML 5 should get rid of them ...) We already got rid of profile='' before the W3C adopted the draft. There may be some pressure to put it back due to theoretical considerations. This is part of the Descriptivist vs. Prescriptivist debate. It looks pretty obvious that microformat consumers experience more practical benefit when they ignore profile=''. -- Henri Sivonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] W3HTML WG, HTML5, semantics, and so on
On May 11, 2007, at 3:15 PM, John Allsopp wrote: Hi all, I'm not sure how many here (a few at least?) have been following developments with the W3's HTML WG. In essence, the future of HTML will be HTML5: We are resolved, then, that the W3C's next-generation HTML specification be named HTML 5 and to start review of the text of the HTML 5 and WF2 specifications, and we welcome Ian Hickson and Dave Hyatt as editors (while remaining open to the possibility of other editors in the future). [1] Of particular relevance to this mailing list is the way in which HTML5 provides mechanisms for extending the semantics of HTML - and the discussions around the issue of semantics in HTML generally. This thread on the very busy mailing list (which is in effect is now the official communications channel for the development of HTML) should give a sense of the general way in which people involved are thinking. [2] I'd argue that things don't look overly promising on that front at present. Two mechanisms are currently used in HTML5 1. A small number of new HTML elements, like copyright HTML5 does have new elements, some of which are mainly for semantic purposes, but it does not at present have a copyright element. Some of the new elements include header, footer, section, article and aside. HTML5 also applies semantics to some formerly presentation elements based on their most common use, for instance small is defined to be appropriate for details that would normally be in fine print. 2. reserved class values that coincide with currently widely used class values in the wild (though whether any two instances of the same class value will always imply the same thing is open to consideration, at the very least). The current proposal does have a predefined copyright class though. Unfortunately the HTML WG mailing list is ludicrously busy - 1000+ messages a week, so keeping up with it, and participating is, frankly, impossible, but I do think it is an area in which participants in this community have a significant amount of theoretical and practical experience with, and the HTML 5 efforts would definitely benefit from that. In the associated threads I've seen very little mention of ufs, and where they have been mentioned, somewhat critical (abbr pattern problems, even with ufs no one uses profiles so HTML 5 should get rid of them ...) From the outside, the whole enterprise does look like possibly falling into a heap of political/religious/theoretical debates, and does make me feel that at time arguably restrictive policies of what's on topic for these mailing lists in fact serve the community very well in many ways. Anyway, just a little update on something that is without doubt very relevant to the efforts of the uf community, and hopefully many of the lessons hard learned over the last few years developing ufs might benefit the HTML WG efforts The HTML Working Group (and the WHATWG, which is continuing to operate in parallel) would welcome participation from microformats experts and advocates. Regards, Maciej ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] W3HTML WG, HTML5, semantics, and so on
Hi all, I'm not sure how many here (a few at least?) have been following developments with the W3's HTML WG. In essence, the future of HTML will be HTML5: We are resolved, then, that the W3C's next-generation HTML specification be named HTML 5 and to start review of the text of the HTML 5 and WF2 specifications, and we welcome Ian Hickson and Dave Hyatt as editors (while remaining open to the possibility of other editors in the future). [1] Of particular relevance to this mailing list is the way in which HTML5 provides mechanisms for extending the semantics of HTML - and the discussions around the issue of semantics in HTML generally. This thread on the very busy mailing list (which is in effect is now the official communications channel for the development of HTML) should give a sense of the general way in which people involved are thinking. [2] I'd argue that things don't look overly promising on that front at present. Two mechanisms are currently used in HTML5 1. A small number of new HTML elements, like copyright 2. reserved class values that coincide with currently widely used class values in the wild (though whether any two instances of the same class value will always imply the same thing is open to consideration, at the very least). Unfortunately the HTML WG mailing list is ludicrously busy - 1000+ messages a week, so keeping up with it, and participating is, frankly, impossible, but I do think it is an area in which participants in this community have a significant amount of theoretical and practical experience with, and the HTML 5 efforts would definitely benefit from that. In the associated threads I've seen very little mention of ufs, and where they have been mentioned, somewhat critical (abbr pattern problems, even with ufs no one uses profiles so HTML 5 should get rid of them ...) From the outside, the whole enterprise does look like possibly falling into a heap of political/religious/theoretical debates, and does make me feel that at time arguably restrictive policies of what's on topic for these mailing lists in fact serve the community very well in many ways. Anyway, just a little update on something that is without doubt very relevant to the efforts of the uf community, and hopefully many of the lessons hard learned over the last few years developing ufs might benefit the HTML WG efforts [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007May/0909.html [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007May/0881.html john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
