Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
On 6/25/07 12:39 PM, James Craig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apologies for not responding sooner. I've been working on a test case script for all of the possibilities listed on the assistive- technology-abbr-results pages, but side work always falls behind work work. snip http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results James, Thanks for the update, and I can certainly understand/appreciate the challenge of balancing various sources of work. Your work on documenting the different possibilities, your scientific observations/hypotheses about the possibilities, and a test case script for them is very much appreciated (I'm sure by many, whether explicitly acknowledged or not). Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
On 6/27/07, Christian Heilmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why? Unless you are a geography geek there is not that much sense in it. Geo becomes useful by conversion to something human understandable, like a map or a named location. For print you could just override the style in the print stylesheet. Well, to use it in any application that doesn't yet consume GEO (i.e. sadly a lot of them) you'd want to be able to cut and paste it at the minimum... -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christian Heilmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Also, speaking as a human being, what is the point of lat/lon information being displayed to me anyways? I cannot fathom [...] You're making the - common - mistake of assuming that, because you don't understand, like, want or do something, nobody else does. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Quoting Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why? Unless you are a geography geek there is not that much sense in it. Geo becomes useful by conversion to something human understandable, like a map or a named location. For print you could just override the style in the print stylesheet. I can't see any harm in displaying it people might want to copy/paste it into some kind of mapping application, or compare it with output from a GPS device, etc There's a lot of things a technically-minded users may *want* to do with that sort data. I would posit, though, that the average user (who, incidentally, also doesn't really like to read things like -MM-DDThh:mm:ss.sTZD) doesn't, and is far better served with functional buttons/links or Operator-like tools. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Also, speaking as a human being, what is the point of lat/lon information being displayed to me anyways? I cannot fathom [...] You're making the - common - mistake of assuming that, because you don't understand, like, want or do something, nobody else does. Well, we just conducted usability tests on a local search application that displayed lat and lon and most users we tested on were confused as to what they were. You could put your argument under any of the other emails, though, as we do want to have geo in web sites, and assume it is useful for people to copy and paste, print out or whatever. I agree with patrick that an interface element that explains what that is before showing it is the best option. -- Chris Heilmann Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com Writing: http://icant.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christian Heilmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Also, speaking as a human being, what is the point of lat/lon information being displayed to me anyways? I cannot fathom [...] You're making the - common - mistake of assuming that, because you don't understand, like, want or do something, nobody else does. Well, we just conducted usability tests on a local search application that displayed lat and lon and most users we tested on were confused as to what they were. You could put your argument under any of the other emails, though, as we do want to have geo in web sites, and assume it is useful for people to copy and paste, print out or whatever. There is *evidence* that people want to, and do, publish coordinates; and in decimal format at that. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Quoting Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can doubt all you like, but the evidence is still there ;-) Flickr and Wikipedia are two prominent examples. Tellingly, Flickr hides that stuff by default. Wikipedia, being user generated, isn't always a beacon of best practice for usability and good web design, I'd say... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
On Jun 27, 2007, at 12:22 AM, Christian Heilmann wrote: Geo becomes useful by conversion to something human understandable, like a map or a named location. This is kind of a pointless debate, for two reasons. First, it's impossible to retract an already-published standard. Second, the goal of microformats is to standardize markup of *already published* content, so if you're not already publishing latitude and longitude coordinates, geo is irrelevant to you. You shouldn't be adding content just for the sake of using a microformat, whether the microformat is geo or anything else. If you only want to map addresses, you don't necessarily need to publish latitude and longitude for that. There are plenty of services that will map plain text addresses to latitude and longitude coordinates, so a published addr is often enough for mapping. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Quoting Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can doubt all you like, but the evidence is still there ;-) Flickr and Wikipedia are two prominent examples. Tellingly, Flickr hides that stuff by default. Nope. Pages such as: http://flickr.com/photos/stevenhorner/612098574/ have coordinates exposed by default - look at the tags. They currently have: 250,911 results for photos matching geo:lon Wikipedia, being user generated, isn't always a beacon of best practice for usability and good web design, I'd say... Perhaps, but then we were discussing what people want to do, and what people do, not whether they do it well. -- Andy Mabbett ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
On 6/27/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope. Pages such as: http://flickr.com/photos/stevenhorner/612098574/ have coordinates exposed by default - look at the tags. They currently have: 250,911 results for photos matching geo:lon Andy, I can't see this, but maybe I'm being stupid. Where on the page do you see this? I can see the geo tags, but only if I expand the 'machine tags' section, which seems like a nice comprimise for machine-targetted / human-targetted data. -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Andy Mabbett wrote: On the page I cited, the coordinates are in plain text, in the tags, as stated. Do you have javascript disabled? In that case, yes the geo:lat and geo:long appear there in plain text by default. Otherwise, normal users never see them unless they bother to hit the Show machine tags link...and rightly so, as people who are not into code geekery, geocaching, or some other niche pursuit that will require them access to the actual raw lat/long data, will more likely want to see something like the map display. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
span class=smaller geo abbr class=latitude title=52.453856/abbr52^27'14N abbr class=longitude title=-1.748028/abbr01^44'53W /span I admire the lateral thinking, but I wonder if this is any better, from the PoV of people using assistive technology? If it is, it would seem to provide a simple work-around to recent concerns. At first glance I can't imagine how that could be any better for AT, since it still leaves the user with the raw coords being vocalised, possibly twice in a row. But realistically it needs a quick test by AT users to know for sure. I also think calling an empty element valid HTML stretches the truth a bit :) cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
span class=smaller geo
abbr class=latitude title=52.453856/abbr52^27'14N
abbr class=longitude title=-1.748028/abbr01^44'53W
/span
I admire the lateral thinking, but I wonder if this is any better, from
the PoV of people using assistive technology? If it is, it would seem to
provide a simple work-around to recent concerns.
At first glance I can't imagine how that could be any better for AT,
since it still leaves the user with the raw coords being vocalised,
possibly twice in a row. But realistically it needs a quick test by AT
users to know for sure.
I also think calling an empty element valid HTML stretches the truth a bit :)
Also, speaking as a human being, what is the point of lat/lon
information being displayed to me anyways? I cannot fathom where that
might be from two numbers, unless you run it through a geolocator or
show me a map.
Isn't the most sensible and accessible then to use spans and do a .geo
span{display:none;} thus hiding the information both from users with
vision and screen reader users?
Geo stretches the microformats idea of building on already used
content a lot. I cannot ever recall writing down my lat/lon on any
form.
--
Chris Heilmann
Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
___
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Re: [uf-discuss] abbr and accessibility - a work around.
Apologies for not responding sooner. I've been working on a test case script for all of the possibilities listed on the assistive- technology-abbr-results pages, but side work always falls behind work work. I'm getting close, I swear. Please add this format to the list if you'd like us to test it, though on first glance, I don't think it will be any better for the sake of AT. It might actually be worse, because the agents that speak the title attribute node out loud would also speak the following text node. http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results Andy Mabbett wrote: I've been working with Great Circle Mapper to add hCard and geo microformats to their website. This has been done; for example on: http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=BHX-HKG%0D%0A%0D% 0ARANGE=PATH-COLOR=redPATH-UNITS=nmSPEED-GROUND=SPEED- UNITS=ktsRANGE- STYLE=bestRANGE-COLOR=navyMAP-STYLE= (aka http://tinyurl.com/yrlj9t) and they've come up with this way of working-around recent concerns about mis-use of abbr: span class=smaller geo abbr class=latitude title=52.453856/abbr52^27'14N abbr class=longitude title=-1.748028/abbr01^44'53W /span (degree symbols replaced with ASCII ^) I admire the lateral thinking, but I wonder if this is any better, from the PoV of people using assistive technology? If it is, it would seem to provide a simple work-around to recent concerns. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
