certs validation in xxxterm

2011-04-17 Thread Tomas Bodzar
Hi all,

as stated in man page for xxxterm:

ssl_ca_file If set to a valid PEM file all server
   certificates will be validated against
   it.  The URL bar will be colored green
   when the certificate is trusted and
   yellow when untrusted.

   If ssl_ca_file is not set then the URL
   bar will color all HTTPS connections
   red.


it looks like it's able to autenticate only against PEM file, but
certs are stored as ASCII text in .xxxterm/certs so what's the correct
setting for that?



Re: certs validation in xxxterm

2011-04-17 Thread Tomas Bodzar
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Tomas Bodzar tomas.bod...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 as stated in man page for xxxterm:

 ssl_ca_file B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  If set to a valid PEM file all server
 B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  certificates will be 
 validated against
 B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  it. B The URL bar 
 will be colored green
 B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  when the certificate 
 is trusted and
 B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  yellow when 
 untrusted.

 B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  If ssl_ca_file is 
 not set then the URL
 B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  bar will color all 
 HTTPS connections
 B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  red.


 it looks like it's able to autenticate only against PEM file, but
 certs are stored as ASCII text in .xxxterm/certs so what's the correct
 setting for that?

yep

ssl_ca_file = /home/username/.xxxterm/certs/

is all you need. Just not proper wording in man page.



Re: certs validation in xxxterm

2011-04-17 Thread Marco Peereboom
Not correct.

On openbsd use ssl_ca_file = /etc/ssl/cert.pem per the example in the
config file.  The ~/.xxxterm/certs/ directory is where certs are saved
to when prompted by the user.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 08:05:42AM +0200, Tomas Bodzar wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Tomas Bodzar tomas.bod...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  as stated in man page for xxxterm:
 
  ssl_ca_file B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  If set to a valid PEM file all server
  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  certificates will 
  be validated against
  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  it. B The URL bar 
  will be colored green
  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  when the 
  certificate is trusted and
  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  yellow when 
  untrusted.
 
  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  If ssl_ca_file is 
  not set then the URL
  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  bar will color all 
  HTTPS connections
  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  B  red.
 
 
  it looks like it's able to autenticate only against PEM file, but
  certs are stored as ASCII text in .xxxterm/certs so what's the correct
  setting for that?
 
 yep
 
 ssl_ca_file = /home/username/.xxxterm/certs/
 
 is all you need. Just not proper wording in man page.



Re: certs validation in xxxterm

2011-04-17 Thread Marco Peereboom
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:18:00AM +0200, Tomas Bodzar wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote:
  Not correct.
 
  On openbsd use ssl_ca_file = /etc/ssl/cert.pem per the example in the
  config file. ??The ~/.xxxterm/certs/ directory is where certs are saved
  to when prompted by the user.
 
 Then question is why if it's set my way it shows in address bar blue

Because you saved it.  Not because you point to that directory.

 color for correct certs and yellow when untrusted because man says
 that it must be green. But will try correct way if color will be
 green.

It will be if the cert is trusted.

 
 
  On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 08:05:42AM +0200, Tomas Bodzar wrote:
  On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Tomas Bodzar tomas.bod...@gmail.com 
  wrote:
   Hi all,
  
   as stated in man page for xxxterm:
  
   ssl_ca_file B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??If set to a valid PEM file 
   all server
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B 
   ??B ??certificates will be validated against
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B 
   ??B ??it. B The URL bar will be colored green
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B 
   ??B ??when the certificate is trusted and
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B 
   ??B ??yellow when untrusted.
  
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B 
   ??B ??If ssl_ca_file is not set then the URL
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B 
   ??B ??bar will color all HTTPS connections
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B 
   ??B ??red.
  
  
   it looks like it's able to autenticate only against PEM file, but
   certs are stored as ASCII text in .xxxterm/certs so what's the correct
   setting for that?
 
  yep
 
  ssl_ca_file = /home/username/.xxxterm/certs/
 
  is all you need. Just not proper wording in man page.



Re: certs validation in xxxterm

2011-04-17 Thread Marco Peereboom
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:41:33AM +0200, Tomas Bodzar wrote:
  color for correct certs and yellow when untrusted because man says
  that it must be green. But will try correct way if color will be
  green.
 
  It will be if the cert is trusted.
 
 corrected and now it points to .pem files. Anyway all are yellow now
 including mail.google.com I thought that gmail has certs in fine state

I surfed over there and it showed up green.  You might want to get the
latest pem from cvs.



Re: certs validation in xxxterm

2011-04-17 Thread Tomas Bodzar
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote:
 Not correct.

 On openbsd use ssl_ca_file = /etc/ssl/cert.pem per the example in the
 config file. B The ~/.xxxterm/certs/ directory is where certs are saved
 to when prompted by the user.

Then question is why if it's set my way it shows in address bar blue
color for correct certs and yellow when untrusted because man says
that it must be green. But will try correct way if color will be
green.


 On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 08:05:42AM +0200, Tomas Bodzar wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Tomas Bodzar tomas.bod...@gmail.com
wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  as stated in man page for xxxterm:
 
  ssl_ca_file B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B If set to a valid PEM file
all server
  B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B
B certificates will be validated against
  B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B
B it. B The URL bar will be colored green
  B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B
B when the certificate is trusted and
  B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B
B yellow when untrusted.
 
  B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B
B If ssl_ca_file is not set then the URL
  B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B
B bar will color all HTTPS connections
  B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B
B red.
 
 
  it looks like it's able to autenticate only against PEM file, but
  certs are stored as ASCII text in .xxxterm/certs so what's the correct
  setting for that?

 yep

 ssl_ca_file = /home/username/.xxxterm/certs/

 is all you need. Just not proper wording in man page.



Re: certs validation in xxxterm

2011-04-17 Thread Tomas Bodzar
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:18:00AM +0200, Tomas Bodzar wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us
wrote:
  Not correct.
 
  On openbsd use ssl_ca_file = /etc/ssl/cert.pem per the example in the
  config file. ??The ~/.xxxterm/certs/ directory is where certs are saved
  to when prompted by the user.

 Then question is why if it's set my way it shows in address bar blue

 Because you saved it. B Not because you point to that directory.

yep, it's in man. sorry


 color for correct certs and yellow when untrusted because man says
 that it must be green. But will try correct way if color will be
 green.

 It will be if the cert is trusted.

corrected and now it points to .pem files. Anyway all are yellow now
including mail.google.com I thought that gmail has certs in fine state



 
  On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 08:05:42AM +0200, Tomas Bodzar wrote:
  On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Tomas Bodzar tomas.bod...@gmail.com
wrote:
   Hi all,
  
   as stated in man page for xxxterm:
  
   ssl_ca_file B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??If set to a valid PEM file
all server
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B
??B ??certificates will be validated against
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B
??B ??it. B The URL bar will be colored green
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B
??B ??when the certificate is trusted and
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B
??B ??yellow when untrusted.
  
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B
??B ??If ssl_ca_file is not set then the URL
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B
??B ??bar will color all HTTPS connections
   B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B ??B
??B ??red.
  
  
   it looks like it's able to autenticate only against PEM file, but
   certs are stored as ASCII text in .xxxterm/certs so what's the
correct
   setting for that?
 
  yep
 
  ssl_ca_file = /home/username/.xxxterm/certs/
 
  is all you need. Just not proper wording in man page.



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Re: pf ftp-proxy forward AND reverse (Help?)

2011-04-17 Thread Imre Oolberg

Hi!

I just wanted to share that alternative to ftp-proxy clients which 
connect from external network to internal ftp server is just letting 
appropriate packets thru i.e. without doing application level proxying. 
For example like this where 10.0.21.254 is ftp server's external address 
and 192.168.111.162 is its internal address


# control channel ja and passive clients get in
pass in quick on $if_ext inet proto tcp from any \
  to 10.0.21.254 port { 21, 2:5 } tag TO_INT \
  rdr-to 192.168.111.162
# server gets out for active clients
pass in on $if_int inet proto tcp from 192.168.111.162 port 20 \
  to any tag FROM_INT_FTP

# companion rules for tagged packets
pass out quick on $if_int inet tagged TO_INT
pass out quick on $if_ext inet tagged FROM_INT_FTP \
  nat-to 10.0.21.254 port 20

This setup assumes that ftp server cooperates, for example with vsftpd 
is needed to use these directives


...
connect_from_port_20=YES
pasv_min_port=2
pasv_max_port=5
pasv_address=10.0.21.254

As always, its up to the user to decide which solution fits better, with 
above described setup the gain is that you get into ftp server logs 
clients' ip addresses; on the other hand opening up 20k-50k ports might 
not be a good idea, and with ftp-proxy OpenBSD has more control over ftp 
sessions.



Imre

PS You could follow what ftp-proxy anchors contain with

# pfctl -a ftp-proxy -sA
..
# pfctl -a ftp-proxy/xxx.yyy -sr

PPS You must make sure that port 21/tcp states live long enough or your 
clients may get funny hungups.


On 04/12/11 01:31, Steven R. Gerber wrote:

Hi folks.
I cannot get reverse? ftp to work from my wireless to my LAN.
I seem to have no trouble going from the LAN to the internet.
Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Steven
*
pf.conf:

# filter rules and anchor for ftp-proxy(8)
anchor ftp-proxy/*
pass in on $wireless_if inet proto tcp to ($wireless_if) port 21
pass out on $int_if inet proto tcp to $ftp_server port 21 user proxy

# Translate outgoing ftp control connections to send them to localhost
# for proxying with ftp-proxy(8) running on port 8021.
#rdr on $int_if proto tcp from any to any port 21 -  127.0.0.1 port 8021
anchor ftp-proxy/*
#pass in quick proto tcp to port ftp rdr-to 127.0.0.1 port 8021
pass in quick on $int_if proto tcp to port 21 rdr-to 127.0.0.1 port 8021
*
$ cat /etc/rc.conf.local
ntpd_flags=-s # enabled during install
#
# set these to NO to turn them off.  otherwise, they're used as flags
#named_flags=-d 3 # for normal use: 
named_flags=  # for normal use: 
#dhcpd_flags= # for normal use: 
# ISC dhcpd will be invokd via rc.local!!!
#
# set the following to YES to turn them on
pf=YES  # Packet filter / NAT

ftpproxy_flags=   # for normal use: 
ftpproxy_flags2=-R xxx.xxx.iii.2 -p 21 -b xxx.xxx.www.1   # for
normal use: 
#
# miscellaneous other flags
# only used if the appropriate server is marked YES above
pflogd_flags=   # add more flags, ie. -s 256
*
rc.local:

# Start ftp-proxy #2
if [ X${ftpproxy_flags2} != XNO ]; then
 echo -n ' ftp-proxy';   /usr/sbin/ftp-proxy ${ftpproxy_flags2}
fi
*




Re: pf rules

2011-04-17 Thread Muhammad Muntaza
2011/4/17, gdrm g...@email.it:

table terlarang persist file /etc/terlarang
block in quick on re0 from terlarang


in /etc/terlarang
10.0.0.0/8
192.168.0.0/16
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx


Muhammad Muntaza bin Hatta
-- 
Indonesia
http://muntaza.wordpress.com



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Userland ppp stopped working between Mar24 and Apr8

2011-04-17 Thread Scott McEachern
After some experimenting, I've discovered that userland ppp stopped 
working normally at some point between the March 24th and April 8th 
snapshots.


I've been using the same ppp.{conf,linkup,linkdown} files for 6 months 
now with 4.8-stable without any problems.  This weekend I decided to 
change firewall hardware and use -current, and the same configuration fails.


It's not the hardware: 4.8-stable and snapshots up to Mar. 24th work 
just fine.  The next snap I have in my collection is Apr. 8th, and 
everything since then including Apr. 17th, fails.


Replication is simple:

- clean install, not an upgrade.  No customizing/tweaking anything.
- copy my known-good ppp.* files over
- up the interface my DSL modem is on
- adjust syslog.conf to allow ppp logging to /var/log/ppp.log
# ppp -ddial mlppp (config file below; normally this done from rc.local)

- with anything = Mar 24th, the connection works straight away
- with anything = Apr. 8th, the ppp process loops continuously trying 
to establish the connection


Looking at the log, the old version shows LCP: 2: RecvConfigReq, after 
which my MRU drops from 1500 to 1492, and the connection ultimately 
succeeds.  The new version only shows LCP: 2: SendConfigReq and the 
redial process loops until manually stopped.


Does anyone have any idea if my config needs adjusting, or have I found 
a bug?  The only variable is the version of -current I use, and the 
ppp(8) man page is the same.  Nothing to indicate that my config needs 
adjusting.


I'm not sure if the following log snippets show the proper information, 
so I'll wait for requests for full logs instead of spamming the list 
with a hugely long post.


Thanks,

- Scott


Log snippet from successful connection:
Apr 17 21:09:22 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: Chat: 2: Reconnect try 2 of 3
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: Chat: 2: Redial timer expired.
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: Warning: Carrier settings ignored
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: Phase: 2: Connected!
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: Phase: 2: opening - dial
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: Phase: 2: dial - carrier
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: Phase: 2: carrier - login
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: Phase: 2: login - lcp
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: FSM: Using 2 as a transport
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: State change Initial -- 
Closed
Apr 17 21:09:25 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: State change Closed -- 
Stopped

Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: LayerStart
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: SendConfigReq(6) state = 
Stopped

Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  MRU[4] 1500
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  MAGICNUM[6] 0x48a3693d
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  MRRU[4] 1485
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  SHORTSEQ[2]
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: State change Stopped -- 
Req-Sent
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: RecvConfigReq(138) state = 
Req-Sent

Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  MRU[4] 1492
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  AUTHPROTO[4] 0xc023 (PAP)
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  MAGICNUM[6] 0x4a64ebd8
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: SendConfigAck(138) state = 
Req-Sent

Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  MRU[4] 1492
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  AUTHPROTO[4] 0xc023 (PAP)
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  MAGICNUM[6] 0x4a64ebd8
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: State change Req-Sent -- 
Ack-Sent
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: RecvConfigRej(6) state = 
Ack-Sent

Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  MRRU[4] 1485
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP:  SHORTSEQ[2]
Apr 17 21:09:26 fw0 ppp[30518]: tun0: LCP: 2: SendConfigReq(7) state = 
Ack-Sent


Log snippet from unsuccessful connection:
Apr 17 21:07:29 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Chat: 2: Reconnect try 2 of 3
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Chat: 1: Redial timer expired.
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Chat: 2: Redial timer expired.
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Warning: Carrier settings ignored
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Phase: 1: Connected!
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Phase: 1: opening - dial
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Phase: 1: dial - carrier
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Phase: 1: carrier - login
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Phase: 1: login - lcp
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: LCP: FSM: Using 1 as a 
transport
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: LCP: 1: State change Initial 
-- Closed
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: LCP: 1: State change Closed 
-- Stopped

Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Warning: Carrier settings ignored
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Phase: 2: Connected!
Apr 17 21:07:32 hellgate ppp[30239]: tun0: Phase: 2: opening - dial
Apr 17 21:07:32 

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benchmarks

2011-04-17 Thread Rodrigo Mosconi
Hi all,

I'm interested on some benchmarks, specially with network/PF.

For example:

What's the maximum bandwidth that a soekris (or alix) can handle safely as a
firewall? (with and without ipsec, how long the rule set are)

Peter Hallin exposed a configuration that can handle near a 1Gbps on bridge
mode.  Peter, how much traffic your new firewall handle?

On the branded servers (Dell, HP, IBM, etc), how best traffic one firewall
can handle?

These are some questions.

Some of these information can help me to advocate OpenBSD based solution at
work, starting with firewall.  Just as comment, some linuxes (argh) fw can't
handle as much as 100Mbps on Dells (R200 or R400).

Thanks for any comments,

Mosconi



Re: benchmarks

2011-04-17 Thread Richard Toohey
On 18/04/2011, at 1:07 PM, Rodrigo Mosconi wrote:

 Hi all,

 I'm interested on some benchmarks, specially with network/PF.


On the general performance:

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/perf.html

 For example:

 What's the maximum bandwidth that a soekris (or alix) can handle safely as
a
 firewall? (with and without ipsec, how long the rule set are)

Why limit yourself to (low-end) machines?  Budget constraints?  Space
constraints?  Or it might to cool to play with these devices?  (I thought so
too, but in the end easier to whack in an old Dell Optiplex - as is often
recommended on this list.)


 Peter Hallin exposed a configuration that can handle near a 1Gbps on bridge
 mode.  Peter, how much traffic your new firewall handle?

 On the branded servers (Dell, HP, IBM, etc), how best traffic one firewall
 can handle?

Which goes fastest?  Ford or Holden?

What NICs are in those machines?


 These are some questions.

What does traffic mean?  Is your traffic the same as mine?

 Some of these information can help me to advocate OpenBSD based solution at
 work, starting with firewall.  Just as comment, some linuxes (argh) fw
can't
 handle as much as 100Mbps on Dells (R200 or R400).


pf is fast enough for me at my work.

It might not be fast enough for you at your work.

What are your requirements?

 Thanks for any comments,


Probably not what you were after, but that's the repeated advice I see around
here - only YOU can answer this question.

And don't forget to read this (and buy the book)

http://home.nuug.no/~peter/pf/en/

 Mosconi