Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On 3/31/06, A Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip given that I'm not sweeping the floors or mowing his lawn, I'm managing his disorganized mess of a network. And that job is like a sweatshop, because my employer, a small business owner with franchisees, asks me to set up services that are still far beyond my abilities: e.g a VPN that allows him to log into his workgroup snip most all of us did our time in suboptimal positions at one time or another. go get some paper (any will do, bsdcertification.org, compTIA, a CCNA) and get the ball rolling so-to-speak... On 3/31/06, Lars Hansson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As opposed to popular opinion not EVERYONE lives in the U.S. Chances are 30$/h could be a very respectable salary if you take into account the the cost of living in the area. Btw, I think you got your replies mixed up, Greg didnt say anything about salaries. You are quite right there, I work amidst the telecom valley. No mixup, just sloppy quoting.
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
Funny, I live in the West Coast US. Oregon to be specific. Indeed, I am not qualified, so 50$/hr is quite out of the question. I thought 10$/hr seemed reasonable given that I'm not sweeping the floors or mowing his lawn, I'm managing his disorganized mess of a network. And that job is like a sweatshop, because my employer, a small business owner with franchisees, asks me to set up services that are still far beyond my abilities: e.g a VPN that allows him to log into his workgroup (I told him he needs domain) and access files on the file server (a windows computer). I tired to convince him that an OpenBSD box as the domain controller with Samba would fix the problems he's been having. (he's trying to get roaming profiles on a workgroup. AFAIK you need a domain to get the natively, he's got some kind of hack going right now) anyways, I've gotten off topic. Karsten McMinn wrote: On 3/30/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Huh? I'm not talking about any of the above and I'm not really talking talking about official sysadmins, either. I'm talking about security-ignorant non-computer engineers that have root and no one's going to take root away from them. why don't you do it? But boy, will he be shocked to find out how much a professional will charge him per hour! He only paid me 7.50 USD/hour. Where I live, the statistics for network administrators show that the average pay is 30 USD/hour. 7.50 an hour? 30 an hour? yuck. 50/hr starting (approx) for qualified network/systems professionals on the west coast working at a company with benefits and the like. 7.50/hr? sounds like a sweatshop.
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On 3/31/06, A Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Funny, I live in the West Coast US. Oregon to be specific. Indeed, I am not qualified, so 50$/hr is quite out of the question. I thought 10$/hr seemed reasonable given that I'm not sweeping the floors or mowing his lawn, I'm managing his disorganized mess of a network. And that job is like a sweatshop, because my employer, a small business owner with franchisees, asks me to set up services that are still far beyond my abilities: e.g a VPN that allows him to log into his workgroup (I told him he needs domain) and access files on the file server (a windows computer). I tired to convince him that an OpenBSD box as the domain controller with Samba would fix the problems he's been having. (he's trying to get roaming profiles on a workgroup. AFAIK you need a domain to get the natively, he's got some kind of hack going right now) anyways, I've gotten off topic. Karsten McMinn wrote: On 3/30/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Huh? I'm not talking about any of the above and I'm not really talking talking about official sysadmins, either. I'm talking about security-ignorant non-computer engineers that have root and no one's going to take root away from them. why don't you do it? But boy, will he be shocked to find out how much a professional will charge him per hour! He only paid me 7.50 USD/hour. Where I live, the statistics for network administrators show that the average pay is 30 USD/hour. 7.50 an hour? 30 an hour? yuck. 50/hr starting (approx) for qualified network/systems professionals on the west coast working at a company with benefits and the like. 7.50/hr? sounds like a sweatshop. I'm not qualified just OJT making $95.00/hr USD weekdays $125.00/hr USD weekends Of course I am self-employed. : ) rogern John 3:16
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On 3/30/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Huh? I'm not talking about any of the above and I'm not really talking talking about official sysadmins, either. I'm talking about security-ignorant non-computer engineers that have root and no one's going to take root away from them. why don't you do it? But boy, will he be shocked to find out how much a professional will charge him per hour! He only paid me 7.50 USD/hour. Where I live, the statistics for network administrators show that the average pay is 30 USD/hour. 7.50 an hour? 30 an hour? yuck. 50/hr starting (approx) for qualified network/systems professionals on the west coast working at a company with benefits and the like. 7.50/hr? sounds like a sweatshop.
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On 3/31/06, Karsten McMinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/30/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Huh? I'm not talking about any of the above and I'm not really talking talking about official sysadmins, either. I'm talking about security-ignorant non-computer engineers that have root and no one's going to take root away from them. why don't you do it? I'd love to. But it's been made clear to me in no uncertain terms that I need to just report security issues rather than change them. And in most cases I understand as it could affect our on-air operations if I went around booting people or locking down accounts. Greg
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On Saturday 01 April 2006 02:04, Karsten McMinn wrote: 7.50 an hour? 30 an hour? yuck. 50/hr starting (approx) for qualified network/systems professionals on the west coast working at a company with benefits and the like. 7.50/hr? sounds like a sweatshop. As opposed to popular opinion not EVERYONE lives in the U.S. Chances are 30$/h could be a very respectable salary if you take into account the the cost of living in the area. Btw, I think you got your replies mixed up, Greg didnt say anything about salaries. --- Lars Hansson
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
My job doesn't discriminate :) I'm technically a Network admin but my duties are equally split between that, sys ad, and dba. On Mar 27, 2006, at 8:38 PM, Qwerty wrote: Hi All, Would it be fair to say that a Systems Administrator and a Network Administrator are no longer two seperate entities but have become one and the same. Don't the two dabble more and more into each other's business. Thanks Danny __ Get your FREE Central.co.za Email today www.central.co.za
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
Qwerty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would it be fair to say that a Systems Administrator and a Network Administrator are no longer two seperate entities but have become one and the same. Don't the two dabble more and more into each other's business. I'd say certainly not; in fact the trend seems to be in the opposite direction. I've worked for quite a few big companies in the USA and the most disturbing trend I've seen is the compartmentalization of operations into discrete groups that rarely communicate and are often at odds with one another. The most annoying of these, to me, is the security team. As if security hasn't always been one of the system administrator's core functions. I even wrote a bit of a rant about it, for my company's blog, just last night. I have a feeling it won't be approved for posting. ;) http://deanna.freeshell.org/blog.txt if you're interested. Sorry for the OT. -- deanna
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On 3/30/06, Deanna Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Qwerty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would it be fair to say that a Systems Administrator and a Network Administrator are no longer two seperate entities but have become one and the same. Don't the two dabble more and more into each other's business. I'd say certainly not; in fact the trend seems to be in the opposite direction. I've worked for quite a few big companies in the USA and the most disturbing trend I've seen is the compartmentalization of operations into discrete groups that rarely communicate and are often at odds with one another. The most annoying of these, to me, is the security team. As if security hasn't always been one of the system administrator's core functions. Certainly, but it really depends on how security-aware those sysadmins are. Here, a security team is necessary to lay the LART upon the heads of those ubiquitous non-IT engineers who have been given sysadmin powers and who haven't a clue about security. It means when I discover a gaping hole in someone's project I don't have to waste my time wielding the LART. Greg
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
One of them administer systems (might have a hundred of *NIX - and other servers to look after), the other one administers the network (and might have a few hundred network devices, like routers, firewalls, etc.). They might not even see each other for months! Can you see the difference? Ioan Deanna Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/31 10:18 am Qwerty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would it be fair to say that a Systems Administrator and a Network Administrator are no longer two seperate entities but have become one and the same. Don't the two dabble more and more into each other's business. I'd say certainly not; in fact the trend seems to be in the opposite direction. I've worked for quite a few big companies in the USA and the most disturbing trend I've seen is the compartmentalization of operations into discrete groups that rarely communicate and are often at odds with one another. The most annoying of these, to me, is the security team. As if security hasn't always been one of the system administrator's core functions. I even wrote a bit of a rant about it, for my company's blog, just last night. I have a feeling it won't be approved for posting. ;) http://deanna.freeshell.org/blog.txt if you're interested. Sorry for the OT. -- deanna http://www.netcleanse.com
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
Certainly, but it really depends on how security-aware those sysadmins are. Here, a security team is necessary to lay the LART upon the heads of those ubiquitous non-IT engineers who have been given sysadmin powers and who haven't a clue about security. It means when I discover a gaping hole in someone's project I don't have to waste my time wielding the LART. Greg Oh yeah! And when did you discovered the last security hole in a vendor's application, say Oracle? Would you really blame the sysadmin? Did you advised the corporate management to through out a SAP/PeopleSoft application because you can see hole in their application(s)? Or you talking here about perimeter security, like opening a port on one the firewalls? Ioan
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
I think it depends on the size of the environment. Large corporate environments will naturally tend to segment and break up into discrete groups (operating systems groups, networking groups, security groups) In smaller environments, it's more natural that admins would need to know something about everything. $.02 PG -- Original message -- From: Deanna Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qwerty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would it be fair to say that a Systems Administrator and a Network Administrator are no longer two seperate entities but have become one and the same. Don't the two dabble more and more into each other's business. I'd say certainly not; in fact the trend seems to be in the opposite direction. I've worked for quite a few big companies in the USA and the most disturbing trend I've seen is the compartmentalization of operations into discrete groups that rarely communicate and are often at odds with one another. The most annoying of these, to me, is the security team. As if security hasn't always been one of the system administrator's core functions. I even wrote a bit of a rant about it, for my company's blog, just last night. I have a feeling it won't be approved for posting. ;) http://deanna.freeshell.org/blog.txt if you're interested. Sorry for the OT. -- deanna
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On 3/30/06, Ioan Nemes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certainly, but it really depends on how security-aware those sysadmins are. Here, a security team is necessary to lay the LART upon the heads of those ubiquitous non-IT engineers who have been given sysadmin powers and who haven't a clue about security. It means when I discover a gaping hole in someone's project I don't have to waste my time wielding the LART. Greg Oh yeah! And when did you discovered the last security hole in a vendor's application, say Oracle? Would you really blame the sysadmin? Did you advised the corporate management to through out a SAP/PeopleSoft application because you can see hole in their application(s)? Or you talking here about perimeter security, like opening a port on one the firewalls? Huh? I'm not talking about any of the above and I'm not really talking talking about official sysadmins, either. I'm talking about security-ignorant non-computer engineers that have root and no one's going to take root away from them. No need to reply to me, I read the list. Greg
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
. No need to reply to me, I read the list. Greg My apologies. Ioan http://www.netcleanse.com
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On Tuesday 28 March 2006 04:32, Qwerty wrote: Hi All, Would it be fair to say that a Systems Administrator and a Network Administrator are no longer two seperate entities but have become one and the same. Don't the two dabble more and more into each other's business. I'd say it depends highly on the company you work for and what business it's in. Some distinguish these roles, others do not. I personally am effectively both. --- Lars Hansson
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
Ioan Nemes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of them administer systems (might have a hundred of *NIX - and other servers to look after), the other one administers the network (and might have a few hundred network devices, like routers, firewalls, etc.). They might not even see each other for months! Can you see the difference? Of course. Most of the time there is a real need for a separate network team. Network management has very little to do with the day to day maintenance of unix systems. The two can easily be separated. But can you separate unix administration and unix security so easily? The problem I've been seeing is more like this: IT department structures where there are teams for doing nothing managing the web server processes and document roots, teams only for handling identity management and account creation, teams for security, DBA teams that own their special slice of the OS. All teams that never meet or collaborate. I've also worked for a couple of very large organizations that did it the right way - they split teams of sysadmins off according to the projects that they were responsible for, and let them have complete control over them. My suggestion, in the article I linked to previously, was to get rid of this rigid compartmentalization and to pay more attention to systems as a whole. Some single entity, be it a person or a team, needs to have full knowledge and control and ownership of the systems they are responsible for -- and this means security -- or those systems are going to be out of control. To me, the worst part is taking the security responsibility out of the hands of the system administrators and giving it to people who have no responsibility for the systems they are evaluating. This creates an adversarial relationship between the teams, and (this is the part dear to me) it strongly devalues the role of the system administrator. The competent ones will leave, and their replacements will be ever more incompetent, even dangerously so. -- deanna
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
On 3/31/06, Donald J. Ankney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My job doesn't discriminate :) I'm technically a Network admin but my duties are equally split between that, sys ad, and dba. Mine Too :-) And I think this is especially true if you work in the smaller companies. Kind Regards -- Siju Oommen George, Network Consultant. HiFX IT MEDIA SERVICES PVT. LTD. http://www.hifx.net
Re: Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
In the small business I am working for, I am both. I administer the firewall and the BSD box which will replace the current windows file server. Unfortunately, because I am new, he wants a professional. I think it's because I constantly remind him that his security needs improvement: better passwords (they're all 4 numbers with 2 lower-case letters at the end), better organization of data for backing up, etc. But boy, will he be shocked to find out how much a professional will charge him per hour! He only paid me 7.50 USD/hour. Where I live, the statistics for network administrators show that the average pay is 30 USD/hour. Sorry, I got off topic. A Qwerty wrote: Hi All, Would it be fair to say that a Systems Administrator and a Network Administrator are no longer two seperate entities but have become one and the same. Don't the two dabble more and more into each other's business. Thanks Danny __ Get your FREE Central.co.za Email today www.central.co.za
Sys-Admin vs Network Admin
Hi All, Would it be fair to say that a Systems Administrator and a Network Administrator are no longer two seperate entities but have become one and the same. Don't the two dabble more and more into each other's business. Thanks Danny __ Get your FREE Central.co.za Email today www.central.co.za
