Re: low-MHz server
Personally, I would look into industrial-grade i386 SBCs. Old server systems will suck juice, have non-standard weird bits and odds (old Macs are a great example for RAM) and although I readily admit to knowing next to nothing about EM shielding, it would seem easier to shield properly a small box than a sprawling monstrosity. You can still get i386 systems at or below 200MHz from a bit of googling: http://www.advantech.gr/products/Model.asp-Category_ID=1-239XESBU=ECGPD=.htm or if you are feeling slightly more adventurous than i386 you might check OpenBSD/landisk or armish supported kit, although that might be a bit tight for python. anyway, hope you can find a good solution. mike
Re: low-MHz server
500MHz VIA Eden ULV?? I know it's not really out yet, but I believe it only dissipates 1 watt and an idle power of 0.1 watt. From the physics I know, P = VI, so both operating voltages and currents will be a lot lower. From Ampere's law, low current would have to mean there's is a lower magnetic flux around the circuitry and in turn lower magnetic field in time means a smaller electric field. So I believe the power coming into computer and being residually dissipated has something to do with it as well. 500 MHz MAX: 1 watt MIN: 0.1 watt I know I'm getting one! Vivek On Jan 31, 2008 6:30 PM, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 30 January 2008, chefren wrote: On 1/31/08 2:25 AM, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: We did the double-blind thing many times. She nails it every time: 100% If true she can get =very= rich with that. Please stop this thread that has nothing to do with OpenBSD. chefren, I disagree. There is a person on this list with a very specific problem preventing a computer from being usable. He wants to use OpenBSD as part of the solution, but needs to figure out what hardware will meet his requirements. It may not be a typical problem, but realistically, we're trying to make a system usable for someone who is disabled. The disability may not be common like being blind, deaf or crippled, but it is most certainly still a disability. Kind Regards, JCR
Re: low-MHz server
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 10:17:47PM -0500, Paul D. Ouderkirk wrote: Probably your best bet to cover these requirements would be some old school Compaq Proliant with 2 or 4-way Pentium Pro CPUs. You can find them clocked around 200MHz. You can get them on eBay cheaply, but you'll probably get screwed on shipping. They're above 200 MHz, and yeah, shipping is a pain. Crossing the boarder is a huge pain because of the custom's brokerage fees. Anybody in Ontario or Quebec with anything? Doug. Why not try the recycle centers? In Alberta now, electronics is diverted for salvage purposes. I bet this is true in Ontario too. Go the the collection point, and put up a sign that says you are looking for a 486 whatever, put your phone number on it.
Re: low-MHz server
Sherwood Botsford wrote: Why not try the recycle centers? In Alberta now, electronics is diverted for salvage purposes. I bet this is true in Ontario too. Not yet. Ontario is just now starting to think about such a program... http://www.huffstrategy.com/MediaManager/release/Dianne-Saxe/21-1-08/Ontario-to-change-how-e-waste-is-processed/952.html
Re: low-MHz server
Hello, Maybe it would make sense to lower frequency of your beast Athlon and see how your poor wife reacts to such changes? OpenBSD and FreeBSD come with apmd(8) and powerd(8) that can change the freq. You may also want to downcloack your system through BIOS.
Re: low-MHz server
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: Hello, I have an unusual situation and problem at which I've been chipping away. The resultant system will need to run OpenBSD so I'm asking here for the accumulated wisdom. The base technology predates my IT experience. My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. For example, a VT is better than a regular CRT connected to even a P-II-233 MHZ while a 486DX4-100 is better than the P-II. Both are far better than my Athlon64 @3.5 GHz. And any CRT is better than any LCD/plasma screen. Even my Palm Zire (I think 233 MHz) with its ~2x~3 screen is unsuitable within about 30 feet of her. She can't wear a digital watch. do the symptoms get worse when you run Linux instead of OpenBSD? [...]
Re: low-MHz server
Douglas, I'm really sorry about you wife's health problems. I was unaware about this condition and, as a matter of fact, will relay some of the information passed along this thread to my own wife (she is a trained doctor). Maybe she provide additional insights that could improve your wife's conditions. Back to the technicalities... You are in need of a system capable of meeting the following requirements: - lower CPU (Pentium-class machine or similar) - low noise - low power requirements - memory and disc: more is always better - network: 100Mbits should be enough, wifi is not recommended - and, of course, able to run OpenBSD :) So, my best guess would fall into an embedded device. I had made some searches for embedded or single/small board computers in the past and a few links were present on my bookmarks lists. As you an see, there is other companies beyond soekris that can make really useful stuff. Some equipment have connectors for both IDE HDD and compact flash cards and their small footprint can help in building EF shields less bulky. Hope this helps. Best regards for you and your wife. Marcus. http://www.axiomtek.com/products/ListProductType.asp?ptype1=0ptype2=1 http://www.orbitmicro.com/global/35ecxembeddedcompactextendedtechnologyembeddedboards-c-79_191_196.html http://versalogic.com/Products/ http://www.pcengines.ch/platform.htm http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2194852,00.asp http://www.zonbu.com/home/index.htm snip
Re: low-MHz server
RE: LOUD I have x86 machine SCSI hard drives. The fast rpm SCSI are LOUD. I suspect they would be the majority culprit in the netra's case too. There are likely pci-bus/slot ata or s-ata workarounds if the lower-freq netra is a suitable starting place. (e.g. I run several everything-but-X-and-comp (EBXC) x86 obsd hard-drive free boxes on compact flash and RAM-based mfs mount combinations. No hacking required unabridged EBXC will fit in 256MB CF (about 180MB used), though 512MB better. Happier with 1GB or more depending on non-volatile storage space requirements.) -Original Message- From: johan beisser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED], misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: low-MHz server Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:10:51 -0800 Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Just to keep people informed: Netra T1 is LOUD. I mean, shockingly so. I can hear mine through the house, easily. It's also, easily, one of the loudest systems in the colo right now.
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Paul D. Ouderkirk wrote: Probably your best bet to cover these requirements would be some old school Compaq Proliant with 2 or 4-way Pentium Pro CPUs. You can find them clocked around 200MHz. OpenBSD has troubles recognizing the SCSI drives on some of these. (The ones I have, for instance). Also, Compaqs use a persnickety, proprietary bios setup routine that resides on disk -- they were too cheap to pop a 64K ROM into their high end machines. Compaqs of this type require tweaking in boot.conf to recognize all their memory, too. NetBSD, OTOH, and OpenBSD before 3.9, work. Proliant 800. Believe it or not, there are only two obvious P-Pro machines on ebay (us) right now. One is an overdrive (330MHz), the other a diskless Dell Demention (sic ;-) at 180. They want 96$+ship for that one. It must have considerable antique value. Dave -- I told you so. -- Cassandra
Re: low-MHz server
On Jan 31, 2008 2:04 PM, Woodchuck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Believe it or not, there are only two obvious P-Pro machines on ebay (us) right now. One is an overdrive (330MHz), the other a diskless Dell Demention (sic ;-) at 180. They want 96$+ship for that one. It must have considerable antique value. Man. When I recently moved, I threw away 15+ computers, including an old sgi, dec 2000, dec 5000, some kind of a hp/ux box, 2 dual Ppro200 and others. And still, other than this lapdog, the newest computer in the house is at least 4-5 years old. Heh. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: low-MHz server
On Wednesday 30 January 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: I don't need answers to these questions, but if there is a medical solution to your wife's sensitivity that might be easier than trying to banish all electronics. A medical solution would be very nice but not forthcoming. Note that apparently in either Norway or Sweeden (I forget which), a whole non-electronic, non-EMF village has been set up for such sensitive people. Hasn't happened in Canada or the US yet. Actually, I remember reading about an *attempt* at setting up such a place here in the US. I believe it was in Mendicino, California where there were votes on similar laws.
Re: low-MHz server
On Wednesday 30 January 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. For example, a VT is better than a regular CRT connected to even a P-II-233 MHZ while a 486DX4-100 is better than the P-II. Both are far better than my Athlon64 @3.5 GHz. And any CRT is better than any LCD/plasma screen. Even my Palm Zire (I think 233 MHz) with its ~2x~3 screen is unsuitable within about 30 feet of her. She can't wear a digital watch. Doug, Give me a call. My phone number is available in the whois data for my project domain. I have countless systems here in my lab, including many of the well shielded oldies-but-goodies that are hard to find. Kind Regards, JCR
Re: low-MHz server
On Wednesday 30 January 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 02:11:54AM +0100, ropers wrote: On 30/01/2008, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: She's also sensitive to lower-freq and even DC electric fields (e.g. a battery with no external current flow) but in a different manner. I don't understand what you mean by DC electric fields in this context. A battery without any current flow is just a container with chemicals inside. No electricity, no magnetic field, nothing. Sure it does. It has a static electric field since there's a voltage potential between the two poles. Electricity doesn't just appear once you put a meter onto a battery; current yes, potential no. Potential is, well, potential. Also, no batteries are electrically perfect so they all contain some capacitance that can then interact if placed in an occilating EMF (IOW, they can act like an antenna). Voltage is, by definition, potential difference. You can burry two plates of metal a meter apart from each other and get voltage. When you subject those plates to an increased electro-magnetic field, you get more voltage. http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/history/bain.html It all seems strange. Yes, I know the physics of it, but before this happened, it was something that you paid a lot of money to build a detector for, for research. Yes and no. Doing it right in a research environment means you'll pay extrodinate amounts of money for accurate and sensitive measurement equipment (as well as a specialized buildng to use the equipment without interference). *BUT* doing it on the cheap is perfectly possible. One of the most fiendishly clever things I've ever seen done was by a Bring-Up Engineer (i.e. the guys who debug the initial bring-up of newly created circuit board designs) at a poor startup. A very mysterious something was causing a component to behave erratically when the power was on but the component tested out perfectly on all of the prototypes. Since there was no way we could afford proper equipment, the guy took a very thin copper wire, wound it around a pencil a few times, separated the coil a bit so it wasn't touching anywhere, then attached a ohm-meter. He ran it over the running board to figure out if the problem was due to significant interference causing the part to malfunction. Sure enough he found it, as well as the source, made a make-shift faraday cage around the source and everything worked. Debugging your wife (if you pardon the analagy) is really not much different; the goal is simply finding and eliminating the sources of the interference. -JCR
Re: low-MHz server
On Wednesday 30 January 2008, chefren wrote: On 1/31/08 2:25 AM, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: We did the double-blind thing many times. She nails it every time: 100% If true she can get =very= rich with that. Please stop this thread that has nothing to do with OpenBSD. chefren, I disagree. There is a person on this list with a very specific problem preventing a computer from being usable. He wants to use OpenBSD as part of the solution, but needs to figure out what hardware will meet his requirements. It may not be a typical problem, but realistically, we're trying to make a system usable for someone who is disabled. The disability may not be common like being blind, deaf or crippled, but it is most certainly still a disability. Kind Regards, JCR
low-MHz server
Hello, I have an unusual situation and problem at which I've been chipping away. The resultant system will need to run OpenBSD so I'm asking here for the accumulated wisdom. The base technology predates my IT experience. My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. For example, a VT is better than a regular CRT connected to even a P-II-233 MHZ while a 486DX4-100 is better than the P-II. Both are far better than my Athlon64 @3.5 GHz. And any CRT is better than any LCD/plasma screen. Even my Palm Zire (I think 233 MHz) with its ~2x~3 screen is unsuitable within about 30 feet of her. She can't wear a digital watch. For lack of anything suitable, I have been using my Athlon64 for daily use, with the P-II used for other-machine backup and ssh access to the Athlon64 (one is upstairs, the other is downstairs) for e.g. a quick email check. My 486 isn't used right now since it only has 32 MB ram and an 850 MB hard drive. The backup set size right now is around 2 GB. I now have a VT520 which I can put upstairs for those email checks which means I can move the P-II farther away from her. While I want to keep the Athlon64 for serious heavy lifting (graphical web browsing, watching DVDs, burning CDs, etc,) I want to move the main application server function off of it. The P-II only has 64 MB of ram, is a abused box I rescued (full of cat hair and over-heating). I would like to get a box (or boxes) that is (are) reliable, run at e.g 133 MHz (certainly less than 200 MHz), with lots of ram, and lots of hard drive space. Since the apps run on it will be non-graphical, it could be headless, accessed via the VT520 or ssh from the Athlon. I'm thinking that this will be unsuitable for an embedded device like a soekris and more like an older multi-disk server. I guess I'll have to go to eBay for the hardware since its long gone off any reseller's shelf. I don't have any experience with anything other than i386 or amd64 so in that line I figure this will be a multiple-CPU 486 or Pentium box. Because the box will be so old, it would have to be one that was popular so that spare parts are readily available, but also one that was well designed and built in the first place. I can tolerate some down time while I swap out parts but I want to be able to keep spares on hand. I suppose I could buy 3 complete functioning boxes just for the spares. Looking at the packages lists in the different arches that 4.2 works on, the four possibilities are i386, alpha, sparc, and sparc64. Since this is a finished room in the basement, not a datacenter, I want the box to do its own hard drive storage and not just be a compute node that is supposed to have a separate box full of drives (unless this is straight-forward). I'm envisioning something like a 4- or 5U server box. Rackmounting a single servier is fine since I can make a suitable shelf to simulate a rack. Here's the software that I need to run on the box (beyond what is in 4.2 base): vim mc mutt tex python some kind of printfilter to serve my Epson LQ-2080 impact printer. Here's the hardware-type I'll envisioning: Multiple CPU so that multiple apps can run better on limited individual CPUs, running under 200 MHz Probably PCI bus. Paralell port for the printer (or I would just use a USB adapter) USB for future needs serial port for console multi-port serial for terminal(s) and my external 3Com Courier modem. 10 or 10/100 Ethernet Multiple hard drives: IIRC, the older boxes had 9 GB SCSI drives. I don't know if one can plunk new eg. 250 GB SCSI drives in them. SCSI HBA for a tape drive Any suggestions for good old boxes like this that will run modern OpenBSD and be reasonably reliable? Thanks, Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
I fail to see why you are moving the applications off the Athlon? why not just use your apps on the Athlon and ssh to it? it is multi-user after all On 30/01/2008, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I have an unusual situation and problem at which I've been chipping away. The resultant system will need to run OpenBSD so I'm asking here for the accumulated wisdom. The base technology predates my IT experience. My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. For example, a VT is better than a regular CRT connected to even a P-II-233 MHZ while a 486DX4-100 is better than the P-II. Both are far better than my Athlon64 @3.5 GHz. And any CRT is better than any LCD/plasma screen. Even my Palm Zire (I think 233 MHz) with its ~2x~3 screen is unsuitable within about 30 feet of her. She can't wear a digital watch. For lack of anything suitable, I have been using my Athlon64 for daily use, with the P-II used for other-machine backup and ssh access to the Athlon64 (one is upstairs, the other is downstairs) for e.g. a quick email check. My 486 isn't used right now since it only has 32 MB ram and an 850 MB hard drive. The backup set size right now is around 2 GB. I now have a VT520 which I can put upstairs for those email checks which means I can move the P-II farther away from her. While I want to keep the Athlon64 for serious heavy lifting (graphical web browsing, watching DVDs, burning CDs, etc,) I want to move the main application server function off of it. The P-II only has 64 MB of ram, is a abused box I rescued (full of cat hair and over-heating). I would like to get a box (or boxes) that is (are) reliable, run at e.g 133 MHz (certainly less than 200 MHz), with lots of ram, and lots of hard drive space. Since the apps run on it will be non-graphical, it could be headless, accessed via the VT520 or ssh from the Athlon. I'm thinking that this will be unsuitable for an embedded device like a soekris and more like an older multi-disk server. I guess I'll have to go to eBay for the hardware since its long gone off any reseller's shelf. I don't have any experience with anything other than i386 or amd64 so in that line I figure this will be a multiple-CPU 486 or Pentium box. Because the box will be so old, it would have to be one that was popular so that spare parts are readily available, but also one that was well designed and built in the first place. I can tolerate some down time while I swap out parts but I want to be able to keep spares on hand. I suppose I could buy 3 complete functioning boxes just for the spares. Looking at the packages lists in the different arches that 4.2 works on, the four possibilities are i386, alpha, sparc, and sparc64. Since this is a finished room in the basement, not a datacenter, I want the box to do its own hard drive storage and not just be a compute node that is supposed to have a separate box full of drives (unless this is straight-forward). I'm envisioning something like a 4- or 5U server box. Rackmounting a single servier is fine since I can make a suitable shelf to simulate a rack. Here's the software that I need to run on the box (beyond what is in 4.2 base): vim mc mutt tex python some kind of printfilter to serve my Epson LQ-2080 impact printer. Here's the hardware-type I'll envisioning: Multiple CPU so that multiple apps can run better on limited individual CPUs, running under 200 MHz Probably PCI bus. Paralell port for the printer (or I would just use a USB adapter) USB for future needs serial port for console multi-port serial for terminal(s) and my external 3Com Courier modem. 10 or 10/100 Ethernet Multiple hard drives: IIRC, the older boxes had 9 GB SCSI drives. I don't know if one can plunk new eg. 250 GB SCSI drives in them. SCSI HBA for a tape drive Any suggestions for good old boxes like this that will run modern OpenBSD and be reasonably reliable? Thanks, Doug. -- -Lawrence -Student ID 1028219
Re: low-MHz server
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 12:35, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. Rather than trying to find obsolete equipment that runs at a low frequency, would it be possible to build a Faraday cage around your computer? Has your wife had her sensitivity examined by medical professionals? Is it a physical problem or a psychosomatic condition? How does she react to fluorescent lights? Incandescents? How about driving near a radio transmission tower? Or for that matter, even being in a modern car? If there is an electronic device turned on in the next room but she is not aware of it, does she still experience pain? I don't need answers to these questions, but if there is a medical solution to your wife's sensitivity that might be easier than trying to banish all electronics. Dan RamaleyDial Center 118, Drake University Network Programmer/Analyst 2407 Carpenter Ave +1 515 271-4540Des Moines IA 50311 USA
Re: low-MHz server
So, Look for tempest rated computers? On 1/30/08, Daniel A. Ramaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 30 January 2008 12:35, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. Rather than trying to find obsolete equipment that runs at a low frequency, would it be possible to build a Faraday cage around your computer? Has your wife had her sensitivity examined by medical professionals? Is it a physical problem or a psychosomatic condition? How does she react to fluorescent lights? Incandescents? How about driving near a radio transmission tower? Or for that matter, even being in a modern car? If there is an electronic device turned on in the next room but she is not aware of it, does she still experience pain? I don't need answers to these questions, but if there is a medical solution to your wife's sensitivity that might be easier than trying to banish all electronics. Dan RamaleyDial Center 118, Drake University Network Programmer/Analyst 2407 Carpenter Ave +1 515 271-4540Des Moines IA 50311 USA -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: low-MHz server
The condition your wife is subject to, IMO, is _very_ unusual and deserves better study... I'm increasing the off-topicness of this thread, but Daniel is right. If your wife is more sensitive to higher frequencies, it should be more easier to isolate her from electromagnetic fields. Lower frequency radiation, like the 50 or 60hz coming from our electrical power networks is more capable of penetrating metallic (or other conductive material) sheets. So, it's probably more likely that she's sensitive to other classes of electrical devices, which should be given more attention... One thing that can be an issue is tje fact of digital circuits running at higher speed (gigahertz range) tends to consume more electrical power, raising the amperage running in your electrical wires, and, subsequently, the 50 or 60hz electrical field in close range. The digital watch clock is puzzling: surely the quartz cristal inside nearly every digital clock isn't in the gigaherts range AND they consume very low power... The proximity to her body can be a factor... On 1/30/08, Daniel A. Ramaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 30 January 2008 12:35, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. Rather than trying to find obsolete equipment that runs at a low frequency, would it be possible to build a Faraday cage around your computer? Has your wife had her sensitivity examined by medical professionals? Is it a physical problem or a psychosomatic condition? How does she react to fluorescent lights? Incandescents? How about driving near a radio transmission tower? Or for that matter, even being in a modern car? If there is an electronic device turned on in the next room but she is not aware of it, does she still experience pain? I don't need answers to these questions, but if there is a medical solution to your wife's sensitivity that might be easier than trying to banish all electronics. Dan RamaleyDial Center 118, Drake University Network Programmer/Analyst 2407 Carpenter Ave +1 515 271-4540Des Moines IA 50311 USA
Re: low-MHz server
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 13:35:59 Douglas A. Tutty wrote: Hello, I have an unusual situation and problem at which I've been chipping away. The resultant system will need to run OpenBSD so I'm asking here for the accumulated wisdom. The base technology predates my IT experience. My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. For example, a VT is better than [snip] Doug, I think you need to look at things another way. I'm only a little skeptical of your wife's problems with emf, as I know someone who is very reasonable who has made the same complaints. Make faraday shields for the systems. The systems themselves can be shielded very well, and you can use copper foil for cables. CRTs can have copper shielding as well. I'll bet you can diminish the RF fields by 50dB for the box(s) and at20dB+ for the CRTs / LCDs.LCDs are likely better in this regard. Googling for TEMPEST might reveal some of the methods it uses. --STeve Andre'
Re: low-MHz server
Because the Athlon runs at 3.5 GHz and gives my wife a headache. Most daily apps (mainly email, doc processing and printing) will run fine on a lesser box. Doug. On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 10:54:31AM -0800, Lord Sporkton wrote: I fail to see why you are moving the applications off the Athlon? why not just use your apps on the Athlon and ssh to it? it is multi-user after all On 30/01/2008, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I have an unusual situation and problem at which I've been chipping away. The resultant system will need to run OpenBSD so I'm asking here for the accumulated wisdom. The base technology predates my IT experience. My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. For example, a VT is better than a regular CRT connected to even a P-II-233 MHZ while a 486DX4-100 is better than the P-II. Both are far better than my Athlon64 @3.5 GHz. And any CRT is better than any LCD/plasma screen. Even my Palm Zire (I think 233 MHz) with its ~2x~3 screen is unsuitable within about 30 feet of her. She can't wear a digital watch. For lack of anything suitable, I have been using my Athlon64 for daily use, with the P-II used for other-machine backup and ssh access to the Athlon64 (one is upstairs, the other is downstairs) for e.g. a quick email check. My 486 isn't used right now since it only has 32 MB ram and an 850 MB hard drive. The backup set size right now is around 2 GB. I now have a VT520 which I can put upstairs for those email checks which means I can move the P-II farther away from her. While I want to keep the Athlon64 for serious heavy lifting (graphical web browsing, watching DVDs, burning CDs, etc,) I want to move the main application server function off of it. The P-II only has 64 MB of ram, is a abused box I rescued (full of cat hair and over-heating). I would like to get a box (or boxes) that is (are) reliable, run at e.g 133 MHz (certainly less than 200 MHz), with lots of ram, and lots of hard drive space. Since the apps run on it will be non-graphical, it could be headless, accessed via the VT520 or ssh from the Athlon. I'm thinking that this will be unsuitable for an embedded device like a soekris and more like an older multi-disk server. I guess I'll have to go to eBay for the hardware since its long gone off any reseller's shelf. I don't have any experience with anything other than i386 or amd64 so in that line I figure this will be a multiple-CPU 486 or Pentium box. Because the box will be so old, it would have to be one that was popular so that spare parts are readily available, but also one that was well designed and built in the first place. I can tolerate some down time while I swap out parts but I want to be able to keep spares on hand. I suppose I could buy 3 complete functioning boxes just for the spares. Looking at the packages lists in the different arches that 4.2 works on, the four possibilities are i386, alpha, sparc, and sparc64. Since this is a finished room in the basement, not a datacenter, I want the box to do its own hard drive storage and not just be a compute node that is supposed to have a separate box full of drives (unless this is straight-forward). I'm envisioning something like a 4- or 5U server box. Rackmounting a single servier is fine since I can make a suitable shelf to simulate a rack. Here's the software that I need to run on the box (beyond what is in 4.2 base): vim mc mutt tex python some kind of printfilter to serve my Epson LQ-2080 impact printer. Here's the hardware-type I'll envisioning: Multiple CPU so that multiple apps can run better on limited individual CPUs, running under 200 MHz Probably PCI bus. Paralell port for the printer (or I would just use a USB adapter) USB for future needs serial port for console multi-port serial for terminal(s) and my external 3Com Courier modem. 10 or 10/100 Ethernet Multiple hard drives: IIRC, the older boxes had 9 GB SCSI drives. I don't know if one can plunk new eg. 250 GB SCSI drives in them. SCSI HBA for a tape drive Any suggestions for good old boxes like this that will run modern OpenBSD and be reasonably reliable? Thanks, Doug. -- -Lawrence -Student ID 1028219
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 01:11:58PM -0600, Daniel A. Ramaley wrote: On Wednesday 30 January 2008 12:35, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. Rather than trying to find obsolete equipment that runs at a low frequency, would it be possible to build a Faraday cage around your computer? Perhaps, perhaps not. Has your wife had her sensitivity examined by medical professionals? Is it a physical problem or a psychosomatic condition? Yes. Physical. How does she react to fluorescent lights? badly Incandescents? poorly but bette than anything else. How about driving near a radio transmission tower? Badly. Or for that matter, even being in a modern car? Badly. Our car is 22 years old and has no computer. If there is an electronic device turned on in the next room but she is not aware of it, does she still experience pain? Yes. I don't need answers to these questions, but if there is a medical solution to your wife's sensitivity that might be easier than trying to banish all electronics. A medical solution would be very nice but not forthcoming. Note that apparently in either Norway or Sweeden (I forget which), a whole non-electronic, non-EMF village has been set up for such sensitive people. Hasn't happened in Canada or the US yet. Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
AIUI, tempest shields from the transients from keyboards. I don't know that it shields from all EMF above (arbitrarily) 100 MHz. Besides, I'll bet that to get the tempest certification would cost a whole lot more than even a skid of old servers. Doug. On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 02:41:56PM -0500, bofh wrote: So, Look for tempest rated computers? On 1/30/08, Daniel A. Ramaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 30 January 2008 12:35, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms.
Re: low-MHz server
Thanks all for your thinking. Yes its getting OT. I don't mind the OTness but I would also like the T discussion to continue as well. On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 05:47:42PM -0200, Marcus Andree wrote: The condition your wife is subject to, IMO, is _very_ unusual and deserves better study... About a year ago, there was a news item on CBC national TV news about a fellow who had a seisure whenever a diesel-electric train went by. He had to move to a trailer in a field miles away from the nearest train line and away from power. I imagine he buys his propane in bulk (light, heat, etc). We contacted Dr. Havas at Trent U. who was interviewed on the topic. Yes our problems go much deeper than just tolerating the computer but this is something which I can chip away at. I'm increasing the off-topicness of this thread, but Daniel is right. If your wife is more sensitive to higher frequencies, it should be more easier to isolate her from electromagnetic fields. Lower frequency radiation, like the 50 or 60hz coming from our electrical power networks is more capable of penetrating metallic (or other conductive material) sheets. She's also sensitive to lower-freq and even DC electric fields (e.g. a battery with no external current flow) but in a different manner. OTOH, she got worse when they extended wireless internet and better cell coverage out here (we're in rural south-eastern Ontario). So, it's probably more likely that she's sensitive to other classes of electrical devices, which should be given more attention... One thing that can be an issue is tje fact of digital circuits running at higher speed (gigahertz range) tends to consume more electrical power, raising the amperage running in your electrical wires, and, subsequently, the 50 or 60hz electrical field in close range. Another reason to use the VT520 (17 Watt) nearer to her and the server farther away. The digital watch clock is puzzling: surely the quartz cristal inside nearly every digital clock isn't in the gigaherts range AND they consume very low power... The proximity to her body can be a factor... It could also just be the battery. Thanks, Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 02:02:09PM -0500, STeve Andre' wrote: On Wednesday 30 January 2008 13:35:59 Douglas A. Tutty wrote: Hello, I have an unusual situation and problem at which I've been chipping away. The resultant system will need to run OpenBSD so I'm asking here for the accumulated wisdom. The base technology predates my IT experience. My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. For example, a VT is better than [snip] Doug, I think you need to look at things another way. I'm only a little skeptical of your wife's problems with emf, as I know someone who is very reasonable who has made the same complaints. Make faraday shields for the systems. The systems themselves can be shielded very well, and you can use copper foil for cables. CRTs can have copper shielding as well. I'll bet you can diminish the RF fields by 50dB for the box(s) and at20dB+ for the CRTs / LCDs.LCDs are likely better in this regard. Googling for TEMPEST might reveal some of the methods it uses. The problem is that this may work if the computers were the only source of EMF. However, given the local EMF environment (neighbour's EMF, wireless everything, etc), she has been unable to tolerate Faraday shielding of herself. Don't ask me the physics of that one. There are lots of components of the problem that I can't understand and therefore can't do anything about. The one concrete thing I do know is that she's OK with a VT-520 hooked to a 486 (even if she is close to it) but not when the Athlon is on at the other end of the house in the basement. So this is what I'm working on now. Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
You said you live rurally - in that case, perhaps you should build/buy a small quality (read as: won't get wet) shed, have your systems there and run some outdoor-rated CAT5e from it to your house. That should allow you to use KVM extenders, serial, etc. Remember the inverse-square law for RF. RF usually is attentuated greatly by opaque things, though just plants etc. will also attentuate. If you can place it behind a hill that would be good. Also, apply for the JREF Million Dollar Challenge. If you succeed, you should have a lot more options on reducing RF.
Re: low-MHz server
On Jan 30, 2008 3:50 PM, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIUI, tempest shields from the transients from keyboards. I don't know that it shields from all EMF above (arbitrarily) 100 MHz. Besides, I'll bet that to get the tempest certification would cost a whole lot more than even a skid of old servers. Tempest is not just shielding keyboard and mouse - it's the whole system. Really, one of the bigger issues today is that newer PCs have crappy shielding, and one of the tricks to get UL certification (for peripherals) is to find the oldest all metal box PC you can find, put the card in, take out every other component inside, that you can, and then hand it to UL for testing. In your case, if you have a friend with an all aluminium box, or if funds are good, get one, and see if that helps. Heck, make sure you have good ground on it, solder a copper wire from it to your nearest ground. And, in all seriousness, has she tried a tin-foil hat? -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 09:42:15PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You said you live rurally - in that case, perhaps you should build/buy a small quality (read as: won't get wet) shed, have your systems there and run some outdoor-rated CAT5e from it to your house. That should allow you to use KVM extenders, serial, etc. Remember the inverse-square law for RF. RF usually is attentuated greatly by opaque things, though just plants etc. will also attentuate. If you can place it behind a hill that would be good. Following the electrical code, the shed would count as an outbuilding, should have its own ground, etc. It gets expensive quickly; comparable to other in-house solutions. Thanks, Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: A medical solution would be very nice but not forthcoming. Note that apparently in either Norway or Sweeden (I forget which), a whole non-electronic, non-EMF village has been set up for such sensitive people. Hasn't happened in Canada or the US yet. If moving is an option, perhaps this region would be an improvement: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/quiet.html That doesn't help your computer issue, though.
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 04:48:57PM -0500, bofh wrote: And, in all seriousness, has she tried a tin-foil hat? I tried a tin-foil vapour-barrier in the bedroom in our previous house; even tried grounding it.
Re: low-MHz server
On 30/01/2008, bofh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, Look for tempest rated computers? These may be difficult to procure, because according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEMPEST even the emission limits remain classified, nevermind actual kit that one could buy. --ropers
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 06:09:36PM -0500, Steve Shockley wrote: Douglas A. Tutty wrote: A medical solution would be very nice but not forthcoming. Note that apparently in either Norway or Sweeden (I forget which), a whole non-electronic, non-EMF village has been set up for such sensitive people. Hasn't happened in Canada or the US yet. If moving is an option, perhaps this region would be an improvement: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/quiet.html That doesn't help your computer issue, though. Yeah, we've considered moving it, but the location is an issue. We're in Canada. If you don't mind a long flight to the nearest grocery store, there is lots of quite area around. Once you get near a grocery store, you have all the noise of the wireless (and unshielded wired) world. Last summer we were camping North-East of Kirkland Lake at Esker Lakes Provincial Park. If you don't know Ontario, that's 9-10 hrs north of Toronto. North of the most northerly rail line and highway. A single power line comes into the park along the only road. No phone. The park gets its phone with two cell phones connected to two high towers with directional antennas back to the nearest cell tower in Kirkland Lake, 25 Km away. Heaven for us. But, if we lived there, I'd still need a quieter computer than my Athlon64. Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
On Jan 30, 2008 7:17 PM, ropers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30/01/2008, bofh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, Look for tempest rated computers? These may be difficult to procure, because according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEMPEST even the emission limits remain classified, nevermind actual kit that one could buy. Some of the information is widely available through the rainbow series of books. They were even sending out CDs of those things. You don't have to actually build tempest _rated_ computers, but close enough -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: low-MHz server
On 30/01/2008, Daniel A. Ramaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 30 January 2008 12:35, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. Rather than trying to find obsolete equipment that runs at a low frequency, would it be possible to build a Faraday cage around your computer? Has your wife had her sensitivity examined by medical professionals? Is it a physical problem or a psychosomatic condition? How does she react to fluorescent lights? Incandescents? How about driving near a radio transmission tower? Or for that matter, even being in a modern car? If there is an electronic device turned on in the next room but she is not aware of it, does she still experience pain? I don't need answers to these questions, but if there is a medical solution to your wife's sensitivity that might be easier than trying to banish all electronics. Without trying to be disrespectful to your wife's suffering, upon reading your email I immediately thought of a double blind trial ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_blind#Double-blind_trials ) I would run if it were me: - Take your palm pilot and weigh it. - Find some small object(s) of equal weight. - Get two identical shoe boxes, some cushioning material, and wrapping paper. - With your wife in another room, turn on the palm pilot and put it in one box (and cushion it) and seal the box. Put the other object(s) in the other box (with cushioning) and seal it. - To make sure you too can't tell the boxes apart, leave the room and have your wife enter it after you have left. Have your wife wrap the sealed boxes in wrapping paper. Now neither she nor you know where that Palm pilot is. - Your wife should then pick one of the boxes and put in on her bedside table or similar. - After at most 24hrs (if she lasts that long) she should try the other box. She should then tell you which she thinks has the Palm Pilot in it. Since there's a 50/50 chance, you could either repeat the experiment a bunch of times and/or use a whole bunch of boxes. Okay, totally off-topic (sorry), but that's what popped into my head. --ropers
Re: low-MHz server
On 30/01/2008, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: She's also sensitive to lower-freq and even DC electric fields (e.g. a battery with no external current flow) but in a different manner. I don't understand what you mean by DC electric fields in this context. A battery without any current flow is just a container with chemicals inside. No electricity, no magnetic field, nothing.
Re: low-MHz server
Hi Ropers, We did the double-blind thing many times. She nails it every time: 100% Thanks anyway, Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 01:11:58PM -0600, Daniel A. Ramaley wrote: Has your wife had her sensitivity examined by medical professionals? Is it a physical problem or a psychosomatic condition? On 30/01/2008, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. Physical. Let's remember here that it doesn't matter whether it's allegedly physical or allegedly psychosomatic, it only matters that she's in pain. At the end of the day, both physical and psychosomatic pain sensations are **exactly** the same: The same synapses fire, the same neurotransmitters get released, the same chemicals are involved. For pain, it really and truly does not matter what started it, because in terms of the central nervous system, the pain is the same and just as real, regardless whether it was triggered directly (physical) or indirectly (psychosomatic). In the end of the day, either pain sensation is both physical and psychosomatic, and the brain can't distinguish and doesn't care how it started. More enlightened MDs will tell you as much. How it started is only interesting in trying to find and address root causes, but it doesn't say anything about how real the pain is. --ropers
Re: low-MHz server
On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 02:11:54AM +0100, ropers wrote: On 30/01/2008, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: She's also sensitive to lower-freq and even DC electric fields (e.g. a battery with no external current flow) but in a different manner. I don't understand what you mean by DC electric fields in this context. A battery without any current flow is just a container with chemicals inside. No electricity, no magnetic field, nothing. Sure it does. It has a static electric field since there's a voltage potential between the two poles. Electricity doesn't just appear once you put a meter onto a battery; current yes, potential no. Potential is, well, potential. Also, no batteries are electrically perfect so they all contain some capacitance that can then interact if placed in an occilating EMF (IOW, they can act like an antenna). It all seems strange. Yes, I know the physics of it, but before this happened, it was something that you paid a lot of money to build a detector for, for research. However, I have been assured by the best of medical science (not just a local quack) that this is real. So, back to the issue at hand. Anybody have fond memories of great 486 or Pentium-based servers (or other arch equivs)? Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
Two approaches (variation of some already mentioned). 1. GROUND and SHIELD the sources. Home Depot, et cetera, have lead-lined drywall by the sheet for a small premium over regular (quality) drywall. Cut to size. You You don't actually need to encase, but rather place it as barrier between her and the source. Ground strap the lead-line drywall. There is dielectric plexi-glass sheets for barrier between her and the screen. 2. There are low-emission thin clients available from which you can NX to your back end application server. /S -Original Message- From: Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: misc@OpenBSD.org Subject: low-MHz server Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:35:59 -0500 Mailer: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11)
Re: low-MHz server
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. Looks like you need to trade her in... she's broken. ;) -Nix Fan.
Re: low-MHz server
Hi, I haven't had any difficulty finding PII / PPro based HP Netservers that are too heavy to carry up the stairs. Any i386 server from that time should be pretty reliable if it still works... Running OpenBSD is a whole another thing. I've found most of the early PII servers very quirky, the netservers being a bit less so than some of the worst. I'd recommend just carrying a bunch of them home and throwing out the useless ones. -- Jussi Peltola
Re: low-MHz server
On Jan 30, 2008 1:35 PM, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's the hardware-type I'll envisioning: Multiple CPU so that multiple apps can run better on limited individual CPUs, running under 200 MHz Probably PCI bus. Paralell port for the printer (or I would just use a USB adapter) USB for future needs serial port for console multi-port serial for terminal(s) and my external 3Com Courier modem. 10 or 10/100 Ethernet Multiple hard drives: IIRC, the older boxes had 9 GB SCSI drives. I don't know if one can plunk new eg. 250 GB SCSI drives in them. SCSI HBA for a tape drive Probably your best bet to cover these requirements would be some old school Compaq Proliant with 2 or 4-way Pentium Pro CPUs. You can find them clocked around 200MHz. You can get them on eBay cheaply, but you'll probably get screwed on shipping. Paul. -- -- Paul D. Ouderkirk Senior UNIX System Administrator Exothermic Technologies [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- We'll ride the spiral to the end; and may just go where no one's been. -- Tool, Lateralus
Re: low-MHz server
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: ... Here's the software that I need to run on the box (beyond what is in 4.2 base): vim easy mc easy mutt easy tex considering it dates back to the low two-digit CPU speed days, I suspect easy, though it might be true that you would appreciate more. python depends on your app. My VERY limited experience with python is it is a pig. BUT patience is a virtue, you may have sufficient virtue. some kind of printfilter to serve my Epson LQ-2080 impact printer. probably not a problem. Here's the hardware-type I'll envisioning: Multiple CPU so that multiple apps can run better on limited individual CPUs, running under 200 MHz THIS may be a problem. On i386, 200MHz means PPro or Pentium, and I've had near zero luck on SMP PentiumPro machines (not totally zero luck...I have a 4x200MHz 2G RAM which Just Worked...and pumped out something like 700W of heat...) Probably PCI bus. (please!) Paralell port for the printer (or I would just use a USB adapter) USB for future needs serial port for console multi-port serial for terminal(s) and my external 3Com Courier modem. 10 or 10/100 Ethernet Multiple hard drives: IIRC, the older boxes had 9 GB SCSI drives. I don't know if one can plunk new eg. 250 GB SCSI drives in them. ... 9G. those were BIG. :) But yes, respecting the interface, you can put REALLY big drives in really old machines. But go IDE. An old machine with a SCSI drive does nothing for you. You don't want to buy new 140G or 300G SCSI disks. SCSI HBA for a tape drive Any suggestions for good old boxes like this that will run modern OpenBSD and be reasonably reliable? you take what you can get... but yes, get a spare. :) A few thoughts... 1) 1M RAM/1G Disk if you don't want swap on fsck. And, trust me, you don't want swap on fsck if you are in a hurry to get back up and running. This will be a problem. 200MHz machines usually use 72 pin SIMMs, finding bigger than 32M is difficult, and more than four slots is rare. However, if you aren't running X and X apps, you will probably find 64M to 128M A lot. Unless you put a 500G drive on the thing with a 400G /home and trip over the power cord... On the other hand, just because you have a 500G drive doesn't mean you have to partition it to all be available. Or even 10% of it to be available. 2) you may find a PII you can underclock. 3) old machines with heavy metal cases might shield better than new machines with plastic cases. 4) MAKE SURE all shielding is in place. I suspect a lot of people are like me and don't re-install all the silly metal bits that various regulatory agencies desire. Make sure all screws are tightened down properly. 5) Remove CDROMs, floppies, and put in metal plates in their place. Attach them firmly. 6) Is she going to be better with two 200MHz chips than one, say, 300MHz chip? Interesting experiment. (hint: don't refer to her as lab rat :) It sounds like she has reactions to both frequency and intensity... Also, I'm not entirely sure about this, but a pair of 200MHz processors may have an RF signal closer to that of a 400MHz processor than you wish. 7) Not sure if it is true anymore, but home machines used to be more strict about RF emissions than business machines or servers. 8) You (not necessarily your wife) will be better off with an old, heavy-duty workstation than an old server. You don't want an old server. Trust me (lots of wacko parts). 9) Most non-i386 machines were sold for data centers, probably have higher RF emissions than i386, home-oriented machines. 10) The CPU isn't your only issue: keyboards, disks, printers, almost everything now has its own little processor on it, and is thus a potential source of irritation. 11) Old compaqs sometimes had P-I processors but SDRAM. Some other P-I machines had chipsets with serious problems with more than 64M RAM (which was sad, as many 486 systems could handle many times that much long before...) 12) Most CPU heat sinks are not grounded. Might be interesting to ground it to the case. 13) Old system with PCI slot and add-in modern PCI IDE disk adapter can provide very decent disk performance. How much RF does the adapter emit? 14) Don't obsess on processors and ignore the rest of the machine which is (probably) radiating large amounts of irritation, too. I'd suspect even all NICs aren't equal in this regard. I've got some old P90 machines which would be fascinating tests. All metal case, only large hole, assuming no CDROM drive, is the floppy bay. I did a lot of my early OpenBSD faq work on those machines. If your goals are realistic, a 100MHz machine can do a lot of work for you, but don't trip over the power cord if you put a 500G disk on it. Even that's not a fatal problem -- I got a backup machine at work, does rsync backups to a 500G disk, only 128M of RAM. But, if someone trips over the power cord, no big deal if it takes an hour or more to come back up. For
Re: low-MHz server
If MHz are the issue ... you can get SUN NETRA T1 machine off ebay from 50-300$ depending on its age and ingredients. These used Netra's range from 400M-1.2G Hz. These are 1U units. They offer far greater performance bang then x86's at at like MHz. For example, a Netra T1 500MHz, 2GB PC-133 RAM and 36GB SCSI, is CAD$38. Another similar but not-as-old one is CAD$137. They run openBSD well, but there were some chicken and egg installation difficulty stories around (boot/install from CD not working) but all seems prior to 4.x. Not sure ... perhaps others can advise. I've only ever seen them running. Perhaps the Netra's will serve your cause. /S -Original Message- From: Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: misc@OpenBSD.org Subject: low-MHz server Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:35:59 -0500 Mailer: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11)
Re: low-MHz server
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: So, back to the issue at hand. Anybody have fond memories of great 486 or Pentium-based servers (or other arch equivs)? Doug. Back in 1999, I picked up several used HP Vectra Pentium 100 desktops for use as backup backup dial in administration machines at our remote sites, none have had any failures, not even hard drive failures. We've never updated the OS since they've never crashed, and the only external link is a modem. They run mgetty+ssh on the internal lan interface. The one at the site with the most reliable power has been running for quite a while... uptime 10:38PM up 1294 days, 4:07, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Most of the others are in the 200-300 day range, all from extended power outages at the sites. FreeBSD 3.3-19990914-RC #0: Tue Sep 14 12:56:08 GMT 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/compile/STDOD Timecounter i8254 frequency 1193182 Hz Timecounter TSC frequency 99546682 Hz CPU: Pentium/P54C (99.55-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = GenuineIntel Id = 0x525 Stepping = 5 Features=0x1bfFPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8 real memory = 33554432 (32768K bytes) avail memory = 29786112 (29088K bytes) Preloaded elf kernel kernel at 0xc02c9000. Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: Host to PCI bridge (vendor=1004 device=0007) rev 0x01 on pci0.0.0 chip1: PCI to ISA bridge (vendor=1004 device=0008) rev 0x01 on pci0.1.0 vga0: Cirrus Logic GD5434 SVGA controller rev 0xfc on pci0.5.0 wdc0: CMD 640B IDE rev 0x02 int a irq 14 on pci0.7.0 Probing for PnP devices: CSN 1 Vendor ID: TCM5095 [0x95506d50] Serial 0xafd0e43c Comp ID: @@@ [0x] Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 on isa sc0: VGA color 16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0 atkbdc0 at 0x60-0x6f on motherboard atkbd0 irq 1 on isa psm0 not found sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 flags 0xa0ffa0ff on isa wdc0: CMD640B workaround enabled wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): WDC AC2850H, multi-block-16 wd0: 814MB (1667232 sectors), 1654 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc1 not found at 0x170 ppc0 at 0x378 irq 7 flags 0x40 on isa ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode lpt0: generic printer on ppbus 0 lpt0: Interrupt-driven port ppi0: generic parallel i/o on ppbus 0 plip0: PLIP network interface on ppbus 0 1 3C5x9 board(s) on ISA found at 0x300 ep0 at 0x300-0x30f irq 10 on isa ep0: utp[*UTP*] address 00:20:af:d0:e4:3c vga0 at 0x3b0-0x3df maddr 0xa msize 131072 on isa npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface Intel Pentium detected, installing workaround for F00F bug changing root device to wd0s1a
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 10:17:47PM -0500, Paul D. Ouderkirk wrote: Probably your best bet to cover these requirements would be some old school Compaq Proliant with 2 or 4-way Pentium Pro CPUs. You can find them clocked around 200MHz. You can get them on eBay cheaply, but you'll probably get screwed on shipping. They're above 200 MHz, and yeah, shipping is a pain. Crossing the boarder is a huge pain because of the custom's brokerage fees. Anybody in Ontario or Quebec with anything? Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 06:58:02PM -0800, Unix Fan wrote: Douglas A. Tutty wrote: My wife is sensitive to what she describes as electromagnetic fields. She gets headaches and other pains when exposed to equipment: the higher the frequency, the worse her symptoms. Looks like you need to trade her in... she's broken. ;) For better or for worse, in sickness and in health, as long as we both shall live. She's easy. I haven't worked since I almost died of pneumonia in 2000. I'm a kept man. Besides, I love her more than I love computers and OpenBSD. Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 05:14:32AM +0200, Jussi Peltola wrote: I haven't had any difficulty finding PII / PPro based HP Netservers that are too heavy to carry up the stairs. Any i386 server from that time should be pretty reliable if it still works... Running OpenBSD is a whole another thing. I've found most of the early PII servers very quirky, the netservers being a bit less so than some of the worst. I'd recommend just carrying a bunch of them home and throwing out the useless ones. P-II runs too fast. I'm looking at P or P-Pro (or 486). I haven't found any. Know of a source of such servers? Thanks, Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 10:47:45PM -0500, Nick Gustas wrote: Douglas A. Tutty wrote: So, back to the issue at hand. Anybody have fond memories of great 486 or Pentium-based servers (or other arch equivs)? Back in 1999, I picked up several used HP Vectra Pentium 100 desktops for use as backup backup dial in administration machines at our remote sites, none have had any failures, not even hard drive failures. We've never updated the OS since they've never crashed, and the only external link is a modem. They run mgetty+ssh on the internal lan interface. Yeah, something like that would be great. Doug.
Re: low-MHz server
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 11:08:32PM -0500, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: P-II runs too fast. I'm looking at P or P-Pro (or 486). I haven't found any. Know of a source of such servers? I do have dual P and PPro netservers gathering dust in the garage. Unfortunately their combined weight is probably more than what I weigh so I can't get rid of them easily... The best source of ancient hardware I have found is friends who work at company IT departments. Actual IT companies tend to have pretty new hardware (and loads of employees who carry the old hardware away), the departments seem to have more space for ancient servers (which are so heavy nobody dares to try lifting them...) You could try posting an ad in a newspaper or something - usually it's someone else in the company complaining about the accumulated junk that causes them to start looking for someone who will carry them away, so there are many potential people who might be able to help. Of course, you shouldn't forget the people who have made the same mistake as I: never bring servers, especially ones you hardly can carry, home. They will probably be happy to let you take them away. -- Jussi Peltola
Re: low-MHz server
On 1/31/08 2:25 AM, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: We did the double-blind thing many times. She nails it every time: 100% If true she can get =very= rich with that. Please stop this thread that has nothing to do with OpenBSD. +++chefren
Re: low-MHz server
On Jan 30, 2008, at 7:45 PM, scott wrote: If MHz are the issue ... you can get SUN NETRA T1 machine off ebay from 50-300$ depending on its age and ingredients. These used Netra's range from 400M-1.2G Hz. These are 1U units. They offer far greater performance bang then x86's at at like MHz. Just to keep people informed: Netra T1 is LOUD. I mean, shockingly so. I can hear mine through the house, easily. It's also, easily, one of the loudest systems in the colo right now. They run openBSD well, but there were some chicken and egg installation difficulty stories around (boot/install from CD not working) but all seems prior to 4.x. Not sure ... perhaps others can advise. I've only ever seen them running. Lacking both cd and floppy in mine, I found that netbooting bsd.rd worked. It's documented in diskless(8), and vaguely covered by INSTALL.sparc64. Note that you don't need to follow every single step, since you're mainly just looking to bootstrap the loader and the kernel from the tftp server. Perhaps the Netra's will serve your cause. Never know. I like them.
Re: low-MHz server
Have you considered a PowerPC-based machine? They run at lower frequencies, using less power. Might be something to consider. Something like an old beige PowerMac 6200 or something from that era. In Vancouver, we have a Mac consignment shop that always has old machines like this. Maybe you have something like that out your way. We actually used such a machine as recent as 2000 to run a pretty functional web and terminal server. If your wife is comfortable using Pine or Elm for email, you could easily use a machine like this. (I believe OpenBSD's PowerPC/RISC support is quite good.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_6200 On Jan 30, 2008 8:08 PM, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 05:14:32AM +0200, Jussi Peltola wrote: I haven't had any difficulty finding PII / PPro based HP Netservers that are too heavy to carry up the stairs. Any i386 server from that time should be pretty reliable if it still works... Running OpenBSD is a whole another thing. I've found most of the early PII servers very quirky, the netservers being a bit less so than some of the worst. I'd recommend just carrying a bunch of them home and throwing out the useless ones. P-II runs too fast. I'm looking at P or P-Pro (or 486). I haven't found any. Know of a source of such servers? Thanks, Doug.
