openbsd not blob free?
There is a discussion on the osol-discuss mailing list this morning where it's pointed out that OpenBSD source tree has a blob in it: http://osdir.com/ml/opensolaris-discuss/2010-05/msg00095.html The location of the blob in the tree is here: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/dev/microcode/afb/microcode.h?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain A posting from Alan Coopersmith from last December: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/x-packagers/2009-December/91.html The only official OpenBSD position statement I could find is on the 3.9 lyrics page: http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#39 Where it says OpenBSD remains blob-free - not true?
Re: openbsd not blob free?
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 11:32:47AM -0400, Kent Watsen wrote: There is a discussion on the osol-discuss mailing list this morning where it's pointed out that OpenBSD source tree has a blob in it: http://osdir.com/ml/opensolaris-discuss/2010-05/msg00095.html The location of the blob in the tree is here: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/dev/microcode/afb/microcode.h?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain A posting from Alan Coopersmith from last December: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/x-packagers/2009-December/91.html The only official OpenBSD position statement I could find is on the 3.9 lyrics page: http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#39 Where it says OpenBSD remains blob-free - not true? Blobs that run on hardware like PCI cards != blobs that run on the same processor as the kernel. -Otto
Re: openbsd not blob free?
On Wed, 5 May 2010 17:44:48 +0200, Otto Moerbeek o...@drijf.net wrote: Blobs that run on hardware like PCI cards != blobs that run on the same processor as the kernel. What is the difference between inaccessible firmware on expansion cards and firmware blobs uploaded to expansion cards by the operating system? Uploaded firmware blobs generate more traffic on m...@. -- Matthew Weigel hacker unique idempot . ent
Re: openbsd not blob free?
It's not a blob, it is firmware image and there are a few of them in the tree. Blobs are binary drivers. On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 11:32:47AM -0400, Kent Watsen wrote: There is a discussion on the osol-discuss mailing list this morning where it's pointed out that OpenBSD source tree has a blob in it: http://osdir.com/ml/opensolaris-discuss/2010-05/msg00095.html The location of the blob in the tree is here: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/dev/microcode/afb/microcode.h?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain A posting from Alan Coopersmith from last December: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/x-packagers/2009-December/91.html The only official OpenBSD position statement I could find is on the 3.9 lyrics page: http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#39 Where it says OpenBSD remains blob-free - not true?
Re: openbsd not blob free?
2010/5/5 Kent Watsen k...@watsen.net There is a discussion on the osol-discuss mailing list this morning where it's pointed out that OpenBSD source tree has a blob in it: http://osdir.com/ml/opensolaris-discuss/2010-05/msg00095.html The location of the blob in the tree is here: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/dev/microcode/afb/microcode.h?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain A posting from Alan Coopersmith from last December: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/x-packagers/2009-December/91.html The only official OpenBSD position statement I could find is on the 3.9 lyrics page: http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#39 Where it says OpenBSD remains blob-free - not true? He thinks code on the ethernet card is different if you load it from file or if it came pre-burned on a ROM. OpenBSD thinks code-that-runs-in-my-kernel (like the popular gfx-card blobs) are different from code-that-runs-in-my-eth-card (like firmware files) -- To our sweethearts and wives. May they never meet. -- 19th century toast
Re: openbsd not blob free?
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 11:32:47AM -0400, Kent Watsen wrote: There is a discussion on the osol-discuss mailing list this morning where it's pointed out that OpenBSD source tree has a blob in it: http://osdir.com/ml/opensolaris-discuss/2010-05/msg00095.html The location of the blob in the tree is here: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/dev/microcode/afb/microcode.h?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain From the linked message: They're not happy about it, but a firmware blob isn't really any different if it's loaded from disk where the OS can see it vs. baked into a PROM on the card where the OS is unaware of it. There it is in a nutshell. Do you only allow hardware with fixed microcode, or do you allow the kernel to load it from a blob? What are the practical and ideological differences? Practical: microcode can be updated. Otherwise it's the same as burned in microcode. Ideological: non-free microcode is not free, whether it's burned in or uploaded by the OS kernel. Take your gNewSense no-blob Linux distro and put it on any computer you can find and you'll be running with non-free microcode, starting with the CPU. I don't pretend to know all the issues involved here, but I think what I've said above is accurate as far as it goes. You can't turn on a mainstream computer that is free of closed microcode: such computers just don't exist. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD User Group | MetaBUG dwchand...@stilyagin.com | http://phxbug.org/ | http://metabug.org/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | Daemons in the Desert | Global BUG Federation
Re: openbsd not blob free?
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 11:32:47AM -0400, Kent Watsen wrote: There is a discussion on the osol-discuss mailing list this morning where it's pointed out that OpenBSD source tree has a blob in it: http://osdir.com/ml/opensolaris-discuss/2010-05/msg00095.html In OpenBSD's case, binary blob refers to binary-only drivers, not firmware. Firmware is usually okay if it is documented and under an acceptable license.
Re: openbsd not blob free?
Dan Harnett dan...@harnett.name writes: In OpenBSD's case, binary blob refers to binary-only drivers, not firmware. Firmware is usually okay if it is documented and under an acceptable license. Specifically, the license needs to grant the OpenBSD project the right to redistribute the firmware files. Unfortunately there have been a few cases (wpi, iwn, others I don't remember right away) where redistribution rights have not been granted and the end user will need to download one or more files and copy to /etc/firmware before a device would work. In the two cases I mentioned the workaround was provided by the driver developer who made the firmware available as an installable package for download from his personal web space. It was of course documented in the driver man pages, but the extra step is just enough inconvenience that I'd consider actively seeking laptops with other wireless cards in the future unless that particular manufacturer does the sensible thing. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/ Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
Re: openbsd not blob free?
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 11:32:47AM -0400, Kent Watsen wrote: it's pointed out that OpenBSD source tree has a blob in it: You've just walked into an old flame war. See http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=119983946724267
Re: openbsd not blob free?
Kent Watsen wrote: There is a discussion on the osol-discuss mailing list this morning where it's pointed out that OpenBSD source tree has a blob in it: http://osdir.com/ml/opensolaris-discuss/2010-05/msg00095.html The location of the blob in the tree is here: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/dev/microcode/afb/microcode.h?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain A posting from Alan Coopersmith from last December: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/x-packagers/2009-December/91.html The only official OpenBSD position statement I could find is on the 3.9 lyrics page: http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#39 Where it says OpenBSD remains blob-free - not true? I believe these are device specific (firmware, etc). Here's another: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/dev/microcode/atmel/atmel_intersil_fw.h?rev=1.2;content-type=text%2Fplain
Re: openbsd not blob free?
blobs? multithreading? What is this, troll week?
Re: openbsd not blob free?
On Wed, 05 May 2010 19:41:10 -0400, Eric Furman wrote: blobs? multithreading? What is this, troll week? And bloody UML as well. I wouldn't reply to any of the discussion because I'm in agreement with you. I think the trolls are getting a new paradigm though, selecting topics that look like something interesting even though they are totally irrelevant. Perhaps shunting these threads off to advocacy@ very early in the piece would be useful. I suspect that would result in less annoyance to developers and the genuine skilled people here who are truly helpful and for whom I'm very grateful. *** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I am subscribed to the list. Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou. Rod/ --- This life is not the real thing. It is not even in Beta. If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.
Re: openbsd not blob free?
No one can resist UML threads! On Thu, May 06, 2010 at 09:54:00AM +1000, Rod Whitworth wrote: On Wed, 05 May 2010 19:41:10 -0400, Eric Furman wrote: blobs? multithreading? What is this, troll week? And bloody UML as well. I wouldn't reply to any of the discussion because I'm in agreement with you. I think the trolls are getting a new paradigm though, selecting topics that look like something interesting even though they are totally irrelevant. Perhaps shunting these threads off to advocacy@ very early in the piece would be useful. I suspect that would result in less annoyance to developers and the genuine skilled people here who are truly helpful and for whom I'm very grateful. *** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I am subscribed to the list. Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou. Rod/ --- This life is not the real thing. It is not even in Beta. If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.
Re: openbsd not blob free?
discovery channel has shark week, misc@openbsd.org has troll week. did you know that a troll's vision is actually very poor? their most acute sense is that of smell, which they routinely use to find garbage online. Marco Peereboom wrote: No one can resist UML threads! On Thu, May 06, 2010 at 09:54:00AM +1000, Rod Whitworth wrote: On Wed, 05 May 2010 19:41:10 -0400, Eric Furman wrote: blobs? multithreading? What is this, troll week? And bloody UML as well. I wouldn't reply to any of the discussion because I'm in agreement with you. I think the trolls are getting a new paradigm though, selecting topics that look like something interesting even though they are totally irrelevant. Perhaps shunting these threads off to advocacy@ very early in the piece would be useful. I suspect that would result in less annoyance to developers and the genuine skilled people here who are truly helpful and for whom I'm very grateful. *** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I am subscribed to the list. Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou. Rod/ --- This life is not the real thing. It is not even in Beta. If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.
