Re: [MoLiCo] Bank of America - Opposes 2nd Amendment

[Jeremy D. Young]

I did a little research, and you can find back in April information on 
McMillan's Facebook page about the situation.  Bank of America of course 
claims it was a misunderstanding, but hasn't sought to regain the 
business of McMillan group.


McMillan has discovered that they cannot reject Credit Card payments 
based upon which bank issued the card, so that part didn't pan out.


Bank of America had plenty of other reasons for self respecting people 
to not do business with them.  I recommend smaller local banks and 
credit unions as well.


Jeremy D. Young

On 12/3/2012 10:09 AM, Fred B. Ellison wrote:

Every American that believes in the Constitution and American
sovereignty should immediately close their accounts at Bank of America
and move them to locally owned and managed banks or credit unions.
Fred
McMillan Mfg in Phoenix, Arizona, was contacted by Bank of America and
informed that they will no longer be allowed to use their services (
Bank of America ) because they are in the firearms business and support
the second amendment.

I am fine with you re-posting it. . . . . . . . Thank for your support.
Kelly D. McMillan
Director of Operations
McMillan Group International, LLC
623-582-9635
1638 W Knudsen Dr
Phoenix, Arizona 85027
McMillan Integrity-Global Vision_
_http://www.mcmillanusa.com/
Become a fan of McMillan on Facebook_
_http://www.facebook.com/McMillanGroupInternational
<http://www.facebook.com/McMillanGroupInternational%A0>

McMillan Fiberglass Stocks, McMillan Firearms Manufacturing, McMillan
Group International have been collectively banking with Bank of America
for 12 years.

Today Mr. Ray Fox, Senior Vice President, Market Manager, Business
Banking, Global Commercial Banking (Bank of America) came to my office.

He scheduled the meeting as an "account analysis" meeting in order to
evaluate the two lines of credit we have with them.

He spent 5 minutes talking about how McMillan has changed in the last 5
years and have become more of a firearms manufacturer than a supplier of
accessories.

At this point I interrupted him and asked "Can I possibly save you some
time so that you don't waste your breath? What you are going to tell me
is that because we are in the firearms manufacturing business you no
longer want my business."

"That is correct", he says.

I replied "That is okay, we will move our accounts as soon as possible.
We can find a 2nd Amendment friendly bank that will be glad to have our
business. You won't mind if I tell the NRA, SCI and everyone one I know
that BofA is not firearms-industry friendly?"

"You have to do what you must", he said.

"So you are telling me this is a politically motivated decision, is that
right?"

Mr. Fox confirmed that it was.

At which point I told him that the meeting was over and there was
nothing left for him to say.

I think it is important for all Americans who believe in and support our
2nd amendment "right to keep and bear arms" should know when a business
does not support these rights.

What you do with that knowledge is up to you. When I don't agree with a
business' political position, I cannot, in good conscience support them.

We will soon no longer be accepting Bank of America credit cards as
payment for our products.

Kelly D. McMillan
Director of Operations
McMillan Group International, LLC
623-582-9635
1638 W Knudsen Dr
Phoenix, Arizona 85027
McMillan Integrity-Global Vision_
_http://www.mcmillanusa.com/



"Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice
of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of
increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to
all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.” -
Harry S. Truman


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our
inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the
state of facts and evidence." - John Adams


“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless
one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine
itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”
“Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.”


— Paul Joseph Goebbels, Reich Minister of Propaganda in Nazi Germany
from 1933 to 1945


"It does not require a majority 

Re: [MoLiCo] Fwd: I don't know anything

[Jeremy D. Young]

I would actually argue that if Romney had won the Presidency he wouldn't 
have held off the ruin that is upon us and then the Republicans would 
have been blamed for that ruin.  This could have caused a harder statist 
turn (some consider this to the left) where people have to give the 
Government even more control:


* To prevent complete economic meltdown
* To protect urban people from "Militias"
* To quell uprisings
* To prevent terrorism
* To even the economic playing field
* To secure "America's Interests" (aka Oil that doesn't belong to us)
* etc
* etc

In that scenario, we would have been far worse than if the ruin is 
realized in Obama's second term.


Hear me clearly:  I do not wish ruin upon this country.

However, consider the lessons of the Great Depression:

* Government Intervention enriches the favored few
* Government Intervention consolidates power and control
* Government Intervention deepens the recession
* Freedom, budget cuts, and tax cuts cause Americans to thrive (after WWII)

We're in a major Dollar Depression.  We don't know how long it will 
last, but we know there is pain still yet to come.  No one can prevent 
that pain.  If the Dollar Depression gets driven deeper, we risk 
becoming the Weimar Republic, or Zimbabwe.  All it will take is a panic 
of sufficient size to drive a large enough chunk of Dollar holders to 
bail out and say enough is enough.  Once that point comes, there will be 
no pulling it back.  China will be forced to call its debt, the Federal 
Reserve will pay it off with inflationary new Dollars, and will probably 
be unable to sell Treasury bonds at any rate of interest.  Everyone with 
Dollar denominated savings will have their wealth evaporate practically 
overnight.  A new currency will be hailed as our savior.  Whether it is 
the Amero, or maybe some new world currency that will take over for both 
the Dollar and the Euro, we will have lost our sovereignty.


There is yet hope.  The Free Competition in Currency Act 
(https://secure.downsizedc.org/etp/honest-money/) would allow ordinary 
citizens to conduct business in whatever Currency they saw fit. 
Purchasing and holding gold would no longer be considered a taxable 
"investment".  You could hold Euros, Yuan, Yen, or anything else you 
wanted to try to protect yourself against the collapse of the dollar. 
This is not the only factor in the whole equation, but it's very 
significant.  Tell your representative and senators to legalize Honest 
Money, and allow people to trade directly in Gold and Silver.


The way out of the pit we're already in is to admit that we have a deep 
hole to dig out of instead of pretending that we're not in that pit.  We 
have to force the Federal Government to Balance the Budget, and end 
currency manipulation by the Federal Reserve.  Eliminate the Dual 
Mandate, and make the Federal Reserve only responsible for controlling 
inflation.  Make the Currency as strong as it can be.  There will be 
Bankruptcy, more Foreclosures, calling of debts, and many people will 
realize that we're far less rich than we imagined, but getting rid of 
the lies in the form of bad debts, bad investments, and letting everyone 
get back to rebuilding will get us on the road to recovery faster than 
pretending we're already on the road.


Consider that whatever partisan allegiance you've held is possibly 
completely built on an illusion.


Oh, and this isn't the Muslims fault.  Though some extremists would like 
to see us fall, you can't claim they're the masterminds of this 
disaster. It's been a bad 100 years, and for most of that time, it 
wasn't the Middle East attacking the West.  We started our own demise in 
1913. (Federal Reserve Act, 16th Amendment, 17th Amendment, and more)


Jeremy D. Young

On 11/27/2012 12:59 PM, Tom Martz wrote:

I have to agree with Jerry there isn't a clear choice to which political
party and their representation is going to take which liberty away
next.  Romney had business experience but he also used government to
fund some of his successful business ventures. Obama had community
building experience to which government funds that as well.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Jerry Blevins mailto:jb...@mchsi.com>> wrote:

Very Sad times, but I really do not think people have understood the
real problem, part of it is the very first paragraph, “I thought for
sure that given such a clear choice”, we were not given a clear
choice.  When you have two parties that have become the same, there
is not a choice.

__ __

Jerry

__ __

"Without God there is no virtue because there is no prompting of the
conscience...without God there is a coarsening of the society;
without God democracy will not and cannot long endure...If we ever
forget that we are One Nation Under God, then 

Re: [MoLiCo] amendment 2

[Jeremy D. Young]

The problem as I see it, stems from the idea that everyone in the State 
supposedly equally owns the education system.  I believe strongly that 
every single parent in this State, (nation, world, universe) has full 
rights to teach their children based upon their own world view and 
belief system.  Unfortunately, the inherent freedom of religion given to 
us by our Creator, or existing due to our humanity, is at odds with the 
idea of a Government determined curriculum.


If we give in to the idea that Government schooling is a bond that we 
cannot throw off, then this section does grant students rights that they 
do not have otherwise.  I somewhat doubt this would be the first 
insertion of the public schools into the text of our Missouri 
Constitution, but if it was, I would be wholeheartedly opposed to it on 
those grounds alone.


Incidentally, it also grants women rights that they did not explicitly 
have based upon the text of this section.


This amendment also explicitly grants the members of the various levels 
of Government the explicit right to open their meetings in prayer.


So far, I'm not certain whether there is any harm in this amendment to 
the Missouri Constitution. However, I do not think it will actually 
accomplish anything.  I would have to read what people are intending for 
it to do before I could argue that their intentions are merely wishful 
thinking.


Jeremy D. Young

On 7/24/2012 6:03 PM, CathyM wrote:

Well, Tom, you came from it in an entirely different angle than I do.

I never read a piece of legislation with the interest of how it can
benefit me.  I don’t read it with is it already in the laws and how does
this wording compare in the first reading.  What I do is read it with
the intention of how can this as written create the most harm or do me
the most harm?

Here is the amendment as it is read:

Shall the Missouri Constitution be amended to ensure:

  * That the right of Missouri citizens to express their religious
beliefs shall not be infringed;
  * That school children have the right to pray and acknowledge God
voluntarily in their schools; and
  * That all public schools shall display the Bill of Rights of the
United States Constitution.

This is what I see in this piece of legislation:

No defining definition of religion.  In other words, I feel that the
people who wrote it and presented it feel that they are protecting
Christianity BUT this is not how it reads.  It reads all religion.  So
that if you want to practice devil worship or wicca religion and the
child wants to perform a prayer in school they have a right to do so.
Sorry, I don’t want my child to be exposed to other gods but only the
Christian God that I believe in.  This actually makes it so that you
cannot protect a child in school from the expression of ANY religion
through prayer.

Because of the line that “Missouri citizens to express their religious
beliefs shall not be infringed” this means not only the Christian
religion but ANY religion.  Think about it: if someone believes that
killing cows is part of their religious beliefs – they can do this.  All
they have to do is prove that what they are doing falls within the
context of a religious belief.  Besides it being redundant to what is
already there as you pointed out.

As you said, this is already codified in Article 1 Section 5 of the
Missouri Constitution and By-Laws:

*Religious freedom--liberty of conscience and belief--limitations. *

Section 5. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship
Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences; that no
human authority can control or interfere with the rights of conscience;
that no person shall, on account of his religious persuasion or belief,
be rendered ineligible to any public office or trust or profit in this
state, be disqualified from testifying or serving as a juror, or be
molested in his person or estate; but this section shall not be
construed to excuse acts of licentiousness, nor to justify practices
inconsistent with the good order, peace or safety of the state, or with
the rights of others.

But is does leave out the right to prayer in the school system and this
is the target; Prayer in the school system.  Again, while on the surface
this looks to be what is a good thing, remember the prayer can come from
any direction and be directed towards anything of worship.

No thank you.  I will be voting against this because of that one part of it.

I would love to see the Bill of Rights of the USA in every school, but
just as important: What happened to the Missouri Bill of Rights and it
being displayed?

The part of right of worship is redundant to what we already have.

To get this passed – it needs to be broken down into different parts as
each part is addressing something different with different consequences
coming out of it.  Not one consequence.

No thank you…I will be voting no to it because in the long run it can be
abused and mi

Re: [MoLiCo] the enemy within

[Jeremy D. Young]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Wow, the text of this bill
http://www.legis.state.la.us/billdata/byinst.asp?sessionid=11RS&billid=HB195&doctype=BT
basically makes the assumption that every used good is stolen, and that
everyone engaging in transactions involving used goods is a criminal to
be tracked and reported to the police.

It also assumes that minors that want to sell their old Xbox are always
thieves and can never participate in these transactions legally.  I
wonder if that's going to give E-bay headaches.

The state government is requiring Drivers' license numbers to make a
used good transaction.  Not to mention the banning of cash as a
transaction medium.

The government makes so many laws that they can't all be followed, which
makes criminals out of everyone, and then the government passes more
laws to try to track down the criminals.

Jeremy D. Young


On 10/16/2011 12:12 PM, Tom Martz wrote:
> To those who believe the republican party is our political salvation
> 
> http://www.healthydecisions.biz/Article.php?ID=104171&;
> <http://www.healthydecisions.biz/Article.php?ID=104171&;>
> 
> -- 
> "no cause is lost if there is but one fool to fight for it"
> ~Will Turner~
> ~Pirate's of the Caribbean @ World's End~
> 
> "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they
> are free." ~Goethe
> 
> www.moliberty.org <http://www.moliberty.org>
> 
> http://417-political-pundit.blogspot.com
> 
> The power to tax involves the power to destroy.
> ~Justice John Marshall~
> 
> Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean
> politics won't take an interest in you!
> -Pericles (430 B.C.)
> 
> A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law.
> ~Justice John Marshall~
> 
> 
> -- 
> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
> members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash,
> ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If
> you do not, you will be here forever.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk6bLyoACgkQKi9fJ6/lTsAQVACdHBXH/NL1E53e5XKFqRzmwGT4
Rm0AoMv5krPXlCafWeUJ2EZgfpG4QMxH
=aZZd
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-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Political Leaders' Beliefs (was: Mormons)

[Jeremy D. Young]

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Hash: SHA1

The most important thing about a political leader is how he or she
treats the concepts of power.  If a person exhibits in their life a
consistent seeking of increased personal power for the purpose of
benefiting themselves or their "friends", then they must be criticized
and opposed.

A person who has a belief system that is different than your own
shouldn't inherently be disqualified from your support.

Just because they say they agree with you on issues that are important
to you shouldn't automatically be a reason to support them either.

This is a nation of religious freedom, and should be a place of freedom
in all things.  If the person eschews personal power, displays moral and
ethical character in their personal and public lives, and respects and
even fights for the freedom of individuals, whether they are different
than them or not, I think everyone would agree that type of person
should be holding elected office.

There may be room to discuss or debate the idea of whether the teachings
of a particular religion or sect are indeed truthful, but I don't think
it's necessary before supporting a political candidate.

There are several people that I consider local political allies that I
don't agree with on core matters of theology.

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/14/2011 07:24 PM, Tom Martz wrote:
> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
> members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash,
> ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If
> you do not, you will be here forever.
> 
> Just about any topic that comes up is discussed, however the religious
> beliefs is one that can be quite interesting to sit back and watch.  All
> religions and groups can fall into the cult definition with that said I
> have met and know more religious Mormons who practice what they preach
> then any other religion.
> 
> An NO Romney isn't one who follows his religious doctrine
> 
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 6:03 PM, CathyM  <mailto:catr...@juno.com>> wrote:
> 
> So are you saying that the LDS Church is a cult or that all
> religions are cults?
> I am with Linda on this one...you don't vote for someone based on
> their religion.  And if you knew you were going to open a can of
> worms then it might be better to keep your opinions to yourself.
> 
> I really thought this group was about politics not religions.
> 
> CathyM
> Catren's Shar Pei
> Catren's Leather Accessories
> 
> - Reply message -
> From: "Jerry Blevins" mailto:jb...@mchsi.com>>
> To:  <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: [MoLiCo] Mormons
> Date: Fri, Oct 14, 2011 5:31 pm
> 
> 
> I knew I would open up a can of worms on this one, if people will
> take the time to do the research and find the real truth, the
> answers are there, some however do not want to know the truth.
> 
> __ __
> 
> Jerry
> 
> __ __
> 
> *From:*missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>] *On Behalf Of
> *CathyM
> *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2011 11:35 AM
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Mormons
> 
> __ __
> 
> Excuse me.  The truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
> Day Saints (Mormons) is not a cult any more than any other religion.
>  They were all founded on the precepts of belief of a man who was
> disgruntled with what their present religion was teaching them.
>  Look at any branch of Christianity and you will find this to be true.
> I will defend my right to worship as I choose and be a member of the
> LSD faith.  It is not a cult.
> 
> CathyM
> Catren's Shar Pei
> Catren's Leather Accessories
> 
> - Reply message -
> From: "Jerry Blevins" mailto:jb...@mchsi.com>>
> To:  <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: [MoLiCo] Mormons
> Date: Fri, Oct 14, 2011 9:08 am
> 
> __ __
> 
> Linda, just look for the truth.
> 
> __ __
> 
> Jerry
> 
> __ __
> 
> *From:*missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>
&g

[MoLiCo] Re: Fwd: Rep. Davis will run for Lt. Governor

[Jeremy D. Young]

Representative Davis was the only one present for our State meeting in 
Jefferson City to form the Missouri chapter of the Campaign for Liberty. 
 I currently have no reason to think that she won't be the kind of 
candidate that I could support, though I haven't done enough research to 
do anything like endorse her (not that my opinion holds a ton of weight, 
I don't think).


She's very correct that every level of Government has corruption.  Not 
just the opportunity for corruption, but full fledged citizen damaging 
corruption.  My favorite quote, attributed to Plato is "The price good 
men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."


We have to be eternally vigilant to reduce the power of the Government 
at every level.  Bring control down more and more locally, with as many 
things as conceivable in the hands of individuals.  Don't allow the 
Government to take your money and make the decisions for you.


I definitely agree that the Government (State or Federal) should not be 
using eminent domain, or subsidizing foreign investments in our country, 
but trade with China isn't a completely negative thing.  I'm not in 
support of the details of the super hub, but read the following article 
that purely deals with the trade deficit, and see if it's not a topic 
that deserves more consideration.


http://cafehayek.com/2011/05/beware-of-celebrating-decreases-in-the-current-account-deficit.html


Jeremy D. Young


On 10/03/2011 09:19 PM, Tom Martz wrote:



-- Forwarded message --
From: *Elect Cynthia Davis* mailto:i...@votecynthia.com>>
Date: Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 3:28 PM
Subject: Rep. Davis will run for Lt. Governor
To: t.ma...@gmail.com <mailto:t.ma...@gmail.com>


Having trouble viewing this email? Click here
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<http://s.rs6.net/t?e=pzUop8n3I78&c=1&r=1>
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<http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rep--Davis-will-run-for-Lt--Governor.html?soid=1107826974682&aid=pzUop8n3I78#fblike>




*Monday, October 3, 2011*

/
Announcement Speech
/
Today we launch an effort to take the second highest office in the State
of Missouri.  I am running for Lieutenant Governor because it is time to
put principles ahead of politics.

Government is broken.

It no longer works for the people, but only for the big money special
interests.  And the problem isn't just in Washington D.C., it is in
Jefferson City as well.

For three weeks we have witnessed a circus in Jefferson City that has
cost taxpayers over $175,000.  All because some people think it would be
a good idea for taxpayers to subsidize a so-called China Hub.  Never
mind that China is an unfair trading partner or that dumping more cheap
goods on the market will only hasten the loss of American manufacturing
jobs.  Never mind that it is not the role of government to subsidize one
business at the expense of another.  The moneyed special interests want
it, and the Speaker of the House and others, are doing everything in
their power to appease their political benefactors.

This is exactly why 80% of the people disapprove of the way their
government is being run and it is why the time is here for the voters of
Missouri to send the failed leadership of both political parties a message.

In announcing, I want to specifically address three groups:

To the Republicans:  We have spent many years together.  Some of the
Republicans I have known feel they are in an elite club where their
loyalty to the insiders won't allow them to see the truth of how far
their candidates have strayed from it.  However, the majority of you are
Republican for other reasons.  We were Republican because we believed in
limited government, personal responsibility and sound economics.  We
hold these foundational values in common, but our leadership and the
system let us down.

I am your only choice if you believe in the sanctity of life, limited
government and fiscal responsibility.  If the Speaker of the House
prevails in the Republican Primary, neither he nor the Democratic
candidate will stand for the principles you and I share.  They simply
offer MORE OF THE SAME, bigger government, wasted tax dollars, special
interest favors, and folding when VALUES conflict with the first three.

One thing you have learned from me in eight years in the Missouri House
is that I won't fold and I won't bend when it comes to our fundamental
values.

I thought I was going to be a Republican all my life as well until I saw
the truth of what they are doing to us.  Stay with me and you will

Re: [MoLiCo] WY anyone..?

[Jeremy D. Young]

FYI, there have been updates to that link that clarify the situation.

Jeremy D. Young

On 09/25/2011 07:53 PM, Andrew Lower wrote:

Thank God we have county sheriffs to stand between us and the feds,
if/when necessary.

--- On *Sun, 9/25/11, Tom Martz //* wrote:


From: Tom Martz 
Subject: [MoLiCo] WY anyone..?
To:
Date: Sunday, September 25, 2011, 7:31 PM


http://politicalvelcraft.org/2011/09/22/wyoming-sheriffs-told-federal-batf-irs-agents-to-abide-by-the-constitution-or-face-immediate-arrest/

--
"no cause is lost if there is but one fool to fight for it"
~Will Turner~
~Pirate's of the Caribbean @ World's End~

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." ~Goethe

www.moliberty.org <http://www.moliberty.org>

http://417-political-pundit.blogspot.com

The power to tax involves the power to destroy.
~Justice John Marshall~

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean
politics won't take an interest in you!
-Pericles (430 B.C.)

A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law.
~Justice John Marshall~


--
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to
trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for
yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.

--
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash,
ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If
you do not, you will be here forever.


--
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Full speed ahead on parks expansion

[Jeremy D. Young]

Does anyone have any statistics on how many are imprisoned in the Greene 
County jail system for victimless crimes 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime)?




On 08/16/2011 08:08 PM, James Hornaday Jr. wrote:

Jerry:

Not having done anything but read the N-L, I would hazard the opinion
that the shortage of circuit court judges is the worst long-term problem
in local law enforcement. Getting the State to supply us with more
judges will take an act of God and a turn-around in the State's
finances. In the meantime, we are stuck with that problem.

The County has wrung the last nickel out of their budget. The only thing
that will alleviate their problem is a hypothetical big increase in
sales taxes. The latest monthly payback from the State went down 5%. Or
maybe the State will magnanimously pay the county the full per diem
amount they are supposed to pay. HAH!

I do agree that the lack of deputies in the jail creates an internal
safety hazard, but adding more jailers is merely bandaging the wound
without healing anything.

Turning out the 'least' violent jail offenders on probation is not a
good solution in any sense of the word.

Our paying for more prosecuters will, in my opinion, do not anything
significant in reducing the jail count - - as long as we are short of
judges.

Hey, maybe you have a better way to fix 'what is wrong with the system"?
The more I learn about the 'system', the worse it looks. I'm sorta stuck
on any good ideas.

Jim Hornaday


*From:* Jerry Blevins 
*To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
*Sent:* Tue, August 16, 2011 7:51:26 PM
*Subject:* RE: [MoLiCo] Full speed ahead on parks expansion

If we are going to ever fix the need of overcrowding at the jail, we
have to fix what is wrong with the system, it is broke!!

Jerry

*From:*missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
[mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *James
Hornaday Jr.
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:48 PM
*To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Full speed ahead on parks expansion

Spfdgolf:

I agree with you. Jody Adams is a unrepentant empire builder, and wants
a new parks tax - - on top of what we are already paying and regardless
of whether the people NEED more parks and new high price parks
administrators.

I find it refreshing that our new Presiding Commisioner Jim Vriebrock
has squelched her - - temporarily. Vriebrock desperately needs new funds
to alleviate the overcrowding in the county jail. I would say we voters
are facing a new county tax proposal for law enforcement. As this issue
develops, I will bombard (i.e, email) Vriebrock with the idea that any
piggyback Parks tax on the law enforcement tax proposal will be a sure
way for the public to turn down both requests.

Jim Hornaday



*From:*spfdgolf 
*To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
*Sent:* Sun, August 14, 2011 8:51:31 PM
*Subject:* [MoLiCo] Full speed ahead on parks expansion



/
from this Friday listing, I see that Ms. Adams is full speed ahead on
expanding her Parks Department.

//I don't believe she mentioned *three new assistant parks directors at
$70,720 - $96,460 * on her 2006 list of tax promises...

This is an "internal promotion" position only...

meaning if you have a son or daughter with an MBA or beyond who is not
already a part of the city... They need not apply. Sort of a "private
club" public position

I would suppose one could simply vote no on any new taxes, as one never
knows what they will really do with the funds.../


  “INTERNAL JOB POSTING ONLY”

*http://www.springfieldmo.gov/jobs/vacancy/3340.html

*

This announcement applies only to persons
who are receiving pay as regular full-time or regular part-time City
employees,
who meet the minimum qualifications outlined on the attached job
description.


  *_ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF PARKS & RECREATION_*


  3 CURRENT VACANCIES


  Duties

*Serves in one of major program areas, with responsibility for the total
supervisory operation and management of the City/County parks and
recreation system. Plans, organizes, directs, controls and evaluates
policies, procedures and guidelines as established by the City Council,
County Commission, Springfield/Greene County Park Board, and the
Director of Parks & Recreation for the overall administration of quality
leisure service activities, facilities, and services. ***


  Requires

*Graduation from an accredited college or university with a Bachelor’s
Degree in Parks, Recreation, Business, Public Administration, Marketing,
Architecture, Engineering, Facilities Management, Zoology, Conservation
Management (depending on assignment) or related field plus at least four
years of responsible work experience at a comparable supervisory level
in the parks and recreation field. A Master’s Degree and/or
continued/sp

[MoLiCo] Re: Fwd: BREAKING NEWS FROM REDSTATE

[Jeremy D. Young]

Beware, Cut, Cap, and Balance doesn't Cut anything (just reduces future 
increases in spending), actually increases the Cap, instead of leaving 
it in place, and doesn't guarantee a balanced budget (because it still 
needs to be ratified by the states, which is a lengthy process).


Encourage your Representative and Senators to Cap The Debt 
(www.capthedebt.com).


To create a financially sound Republic, (it's already been destroyed by 
complicit big government Republicans and Democrats), we would have to 
start by not incurring any more debt.  Then we'd have to actually pay 
off large portions of the existing debt.  This can't be done without 
dramatic cuts to every single portion of the budget.  Overseas spending, 
welfare, entitlements, etc.


Don't encourage the House Republicans who we sent to DC to give up on 
standing firm.  Tell them to do nothing!  Tell them to stand proud and 
tell the world that the United States Government can live within its 
means, pay its bills, and have a balanced budget THIS YEAR.


Jeremy D. Young

On 07/21/2011 02:31 PM, Frederick Berry wrote:



Begin forwarded message:


*From: *"Erick Erickson" mailto:morningbrief...@email.redstate.com>>
*Date: *July 21, 2011 2:14:00 PM CDT
*To: *"Frederick Berry" mailto:rbonbe...@centurytel.net>>
*Subject: **BREAKING NEWS FROM REDSTATE*
*Reply-To: *morningbrief...@email.redstate.com
<mailto:morningbrief...@email.redstate.com>

Dear RedState Reader:

If you’ve seen the recent Harry Potter or watched any of a host of
exorcism movies, you know that right before the demon dies, he lashes
out most brutally and fearfully to try to get you to give up.

We’re seeing the demon of out of control government lashing out in
spectacular fashion now before House Republicans kill it.

In one last spectacular bout, the White House and Congressional
leaders are summoning Standards & Poor to Congress to scare the
beejezus out of House Republican Freshman. They are bringing in the
Grim Reaper to proclaim death if a deal is not reached.

House Republicans should first note that S&P did not see the financial
crisis come and also note that the White House and Congressional
leaders did the exact same thing on TARP.

Then House Republicans need to open their eyes, laugh at death, and
finish the exorcism.

They are being asked by their leadership and the White House to
embrace one of two poisons:

The first poison, McConnell’s Pontius Pilate Act, would let the
President drive up debt by $2 trillion without any cuts.

The second poison, the Gang of 6' Gangrene, would drive up debt by $2
trillion, not make cuts of $3.5 trillion for ten years and even then
depend on subsequent Congresses actually agreeing to those cuts, and
also foist on the American public the largest tax hike in American
history while being dishonest enough to call it a tax cut.

Poison kills. And either of these poisons, despite what the S&P or any
politician may say, will kill the long term prospects of this Republic
being financially solvent.

Why?

Because the House GOP is performing an exorcism on government
spending. It has the only plan that can pass by August 2, 2011, that
cuts spending, caps future spending, and balances the budget. It has
the only long term plan that meets the credit reporting agencies’
demands without relying on future agreements to do things Congress has
never had the will do to.

The Senate and White House do not want to stop spending. They do not
want to be restrained.

So they’ll bring in the S&P, claim disaster, beg for live, and hope
the GOP in the House gives up the fight and stops the exorcism before
the demon is driven out.

House Republicans: /Hold the freaking line./ They are trying to scare
the crap out of you to prevent you from saving the Republic. Do you
really believe the same people and the same bipartisan deals that got
us to $14 trillion in debt will somehow get us out of it?

Hold the line.

Sincerely yours,

Erick Erickson
Editor, RedState.com
<http://content.eaglepub.com/?ddtgZQvpk4182sLoraICD2gcaHhqASgFd&http://www.redstate.com/>

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Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Stop Republican voter suppression in Missouri

[Jeremy D. Young]

I think the efforts should be focused on clean voter registrations, not
on poll restrictions.

I think it is an invalid assumption that everyone that can vote finds it
easy to acquire and maintain a current photo ID.

Much of what you mentioned requiring an ID for is not a basic right of
citizenship.  Every single citizen has the right to vote, and the
barrier to the process of voting should be very low.

Don't some people have religious objections to having their picture
taken? I'm not interested in discussing whether that makes sense.

I think that once you're registered to vote, it should be very easy to
accomplish the process of voting.

Jeremy D. Young

On 02/12/2011 02:45 PM, Tom Martz wrote:
> Actually you don't need to present a voter registration to vote and I
> agree with much of what you said below, however I have watched people
> vote with a City Utility bill, a phone bill and various other forms of
> identification that does nothing but list a name.
> 
> We need an ID to drive, to sign out a book in the library, and should an
> officer of the law request it, but somehow voting should be exempt from
> all of it..?
> 
> makes sense to me after all these people are only going to control your
> life from here on out...  I seem to recall a case where the entire team
> of the 1998 Dallas Cowboys were registered to vote in CO and put on the
> voting roles.
> 
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 2:30 PM, James Hornaday Jr.
> mailto:rail...@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
> 
> People: 
> 
> I think the state Republicans (if actually contemplating requiring
> the presentation of an official photo ID at the time of voting) are
> trying to unnecessarily control a situation that is NOT out of control.
> 
> I remember going to the county clerk to register for voting when I
> moved to Springfield. I showed my new Missouri drivers license to
> the clerk, and was promptly issued a voter registration card. 
> Assuming county clerks in Missouri are honest and doing their jobs
> properly, why shouldn't a simple voter registration card sufficient
> for access to ballot at election time.  The critical information on
> each card has to match what the poll people have in front of them as
> official records. Hey, I've worked as a election official.  The
> opportunity for someone voting fraudulently in Greene County is zero. 
> 
> Where is the fraud being committed by not having an official picture
> ID, when a voter with a valid registration card asks a ballot to vote?
> 
> This proposed legislation smells the same as all the control aspects
> of our federal Patriot Act.
> 
> Jim Hornaday
> 
> 
> *From:* Jerry Blevins mailto:jb...@mchsi.com>>
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>
> *Sent:* Sat, February 12, 2011 1:55:45 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [MoLiCo] Fw: Stop Republican voter suppression in
> Missouri
> 
> Most of them do not have a picture ID, are you telling me that if
> you are required to be at or in a certain place and you had to
> furnish ID to get in, that will take care of the requirement at the
> time you vote, --I Don’t think so--, like I said, people
> need to think these things through before jumping on the band wagon,
> unless of course they have another agenda.
> 
>  
> 
> Jerry
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>] *On Behalf Of
> *Tom Martz
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2011 1:14 PM
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Stop Republican voter suppression in
> Missouri
> 
>  
> 
> No it wouldn't since these people required ID when they were admitted
> 
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Jerry Blevins  <mailto:jb...@mchsi.com>> wrote:
> 
> Well most people do not think these things through, I think it does
> disenfranchise a lot of legal voters, an example, and this is only
> one, I can name others, this would take away most if not all of the
> people who are in nursing homes and places like that, both elder and
> young.
> 
>  
> 
> Jerry
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:missour

Re: [MoLiCo] Question

[Jeremy D. Young]

Currently there are no federal consumer sales taxes.

I think a VAT (Value Added Tax) is on the table for Democrats trying to
close their deficits.

The Fair Tax is a proposal to replace all Federal Corporate and personal
Income Taxes with a sales tax.

Jeremy D. Young

On 01/05/2011 08:03 PM, CathyM wrote:
> We are having a discussion on another list about taxes and I thought
> someone on here would have the answer I am looking for.
> 
> Does the IRS collect sales tax?  My first impression is no…the IRS only
> collects taxes based on income while state, county and city collects
> sales tax.  You can get deductions on your IRS income taxes based on
> sale tax you have paid on certain purchases and in certain states…but if
> I sell something, I don’t collect a federal sales tax.
> 
> Am I right?
> 
>  
> 
> *CathyM*
> 
> *Catren's Shar Pei*
> 
> *Catren's Leather Show Accessories*
> 
> *November 16, 2009 HSUS CEO, Wayne Pacelle, made the suggestion:
> "...every "**responsible breeder**"** is a **"**puppy miller**"**, every
> "**family farmer**"** is a **"**factory farmer**"** and every
> "**responsible hunter**"** **is a **"**poacher**"**."
> This is what HSUS really thinks about anyone involved with animals! 
> Don't donate and don't believe them when HSUS says they protect animals.  *
> 
> Kill "The Killing Fields" Bills of the HSUS
> www.americanssupportinganimalownership.com
> <http://www.americanssupportinganimalownership.com/>
> 
> * *
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
> members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash,
> ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If
> you do not, you will be here forever.

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Fwd: PASS THIS ALONG TO EVERYONE!

[Jeremy D. Young]

One of the things that everyone should remember is that most people and
organizations are neither good 100% of the time, nor evil 100% of the
time.

The Republican party is an excellent example of this.  When they are the
minority, they oppose the oppression of the big government Democrats
mightily, and make us have hope that they are the party we want them to
be.  However, when they have the majority for too long, corruption
inevitably creeps in, and things go badly.

The ACLU is an organization that I would not say is primarily good or
bad, but it fights certain fights, primarily in court, and frequently
over what seems like technicalities in the law.  Most often, however,
they do come down upon the side of an individual who is being persecuted
or discriminated against based upon something other than what that
individual has done.  They often fight for the rights of people that
they disagree with, in a principled manner.  Often the enemies of the
public, such as individuals who identify themselves as homosexual or
muslim, have had their rights trampled upon, and the general public does
not want to come to those individuals' aid.

The bottom line is that most issues of morality are not able to be
argued in court.  Under the law, people have the right to be immoral,
and to make self destructive choices.  The line has to be drawn where
they infringe upon someone else's rights, not where the individual makes
bad choices.

I believe it is foolish and morally wrong to use the force of law to
coerce someone to be what the majority considers to be moral.
Especially since the only requirement is outward compliance, and a true
change of heart is not actually secured in this manner.

I will not be doing with Progressive Insurance, just because I have
another insurance company already.  Obviously, Peter Lewis should have
the right to give money to any political organization he desires, and
people should be able to make decisions on who they do business with as
well.

Jeremy D. Young

On 11/14/2010 01:20 PM, Eric Vought wrote:
> 
> On Nov 14, 2010, at 8:33 AM, CathyM wrote:
> 
>> Tom
>> They may say this on their website but can you name me the last time
>> the ACLU had a BIG case that hit the papers defending Christianity?
>> I look at ACLU like I do the HSUS – they both preach on their websites
>> things that I never see them do in public.  Most of the crap is there
>> to get people to still contribute and believe they are for what they
>> claim while in secret their agendas/actions prove different.
>>
> 
> 
> 
> They have been heavily involved alongside the EFF (Electronic Frontier
> Foundation) in the lawsuits against the federal government over the NSA
> illegal wiretaps, and over misuse of National Security Letters. I
> consider this defense of freedom to benefit everyone, including
> Christians (as these things have been misused against alleged Christian
> "militias"). For the most part, when the ACLU is on a side I agree with,
> generally the EFF is standing with them. Therefore, I tend to be more
> ready to support the EFF directly rather than the ACLU. But the ACLU
> does do good things on occasion. I often use their postings to alert me
> of issues and then go do my own investigation. It would be nice if they
> got their heads out of their rectums on other issues, but you go with
> what you can get.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric Vought
> "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make
> moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much
> responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction."
> 

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Obama and new trip to India

[Jeremy D. Young]

I am not particularly a fan of Glenn Beck.  He's a radio host, so I
can't take him too awfully seriously.  He's also a bit fair weather when
it comes to supporting Liberty and the principles of freedom.  I think
his primary motivation for his actions is to further his career, and of
course profit.

He spoke a great deal of ill against Ron Paul during the presidential
campaign.

I have quite a bit more respect for Judge Andrew Napolitano.  You can
see him on his tv show Freedom Watch.  He has written a great number of
books against the unconstitutional actions of the Federal Government.

Jeremy D. Young

On 11/07/2010 01:33 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Jerry,
>  
> I understand what you mean and am working actively concerning this
> subject. I just mean that in order to be happy with all this occurring
> that we need to be happy in the light of the future that is to come. I
> mean to not let this fore shadow you happiness even it things look
> pretty severe. Thanks for you email. I agree with you on this.
>  
> Linda
> 
> 
> *From:* Jerry Blevins 
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Sun, November 7, 2010 2:00:11 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [MoLiCo] Obama and new trip to India
> 
> Linda, I have a problem with Glenn Beck but I am not sure this is where
> I should attempt to talk about it, I only am saying this because you say
> you have not talked to one person who does not respect him.  Now most of
> what he has to say is right on and I respect him for telling the people
> about them, the big problem with most of our people in this country is
> they do not know the truth and are not willing to take the time to find
> out what it is.
> 
>  
> 
> About the issue that all we have is what is now, well I am here to tell
> you that there is more and perhaps it would be good to look beyond that.
> 
>  
> 
> Jerry
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Linda Herd
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 07, 2010 1:29 AM
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Fw: [MoLiCo] Obama and new trip to India
> 
>  
> 
> Folks,
> 
>  
> 
> How many watched Glenn Beck on Friday evening? Does evry one respect
> what he has to say? I have not talked to one person who does not respect
> him. Denial nor conflict is going to change facts. Even if I see denial,
> it does not matter. The future is enough and I am awaiting happily as
> there is no tommorow and no past. Enjoying the now is all we have and I
> am enjoying the now and "will" intend to continue in that vein.
> 
>  
> 
> I do want to bless you all. We can endure and "will" endure because I
> already know how strong the people are here. Nothing can stop ya'all.
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> - Forwarded Message 
> *From:* Linda Herd 
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Fri, November 5, 2010 1:24:29 AM
> *Subject:* [MoLiCo] Obama and new trip to India
> 
> 
> Eric,
> 
>  
> 
> He is not going to start a war with India. Have you ever heard of
> Bilderberg Meetings? Only a completely select few attend. The Elite of
> the elite. Have you heard of the New World Order? The Trilateral
> Commission? Have you ever gone to Info.com <http://info.com/>, Infowars
> or the New World Oder (NWO) New World Government, One World Order?
> 
>  
> 
> Upon first viewing of the first video one may think "Ah this is crazy".
> Keep watching and watch all the videos that accompany Endgame. Do not
> quit until you have listened for at least a half hour or more of just
> one of the videos. If you are like me you will watch for hours. I took
> notes until I have pages and pages. Notes aren't even necessary. After a
> few minutes one realizes that the information will be seered into ones
> mind and one could never forget it.
> 
>  
> 
> Finally I realize that this small group of the richest and most powerful
> people in the world have been using wars, extremist Muslims, Mexicans
> and more to dissolve all sovereignty of all the countries in this world
> to arrive at the state of as I have always named it, the Lords and the
> Surfs or the Corporations who bribe the representatives into making them
> so powerful that eventually they own will own us. Drugs and the war on
> drugs? No, the control of drugs and their monetary value  Congress
> members will be unnecessary. The Police State will keep the laws of the
> state which will not need the legislative, executive or judicial parts
> of government. There is only the governmen

Re: [MoLiCo] India

[Jeremy D. Young]

Eric, am I interpreting this correctly?  24 warships is about one
Carrier Battle group?  So...  He's taking one Carrier and all the
support ships that always travel with it?

Furthermore, I fail to understand the significance of the earlier email
that he's booking all the rooms of the hotel he's staying at.  Is
everyone complaining because of the expense?

There's plenty that Obama does and says that I disagree with...  I just
could care less about how he travels.

I'm more upset about QE2, 600 BILLION Dollars of money out of thin air
to buy up debt.  I'm assuming the hotel reservations are fairly cheap in
comparison.

Jeremy D. Young

On 11/04/2010 06:20 PM, Eric Vought wrote:
> 
> On Nov 4, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Tom Martz wrote:
> 
>> Food for thought is the last time there was a terrorist attack over
>> there it was from the water, but I believe 11 swamp people from
>> Louisiana  with 2 swamp (air boat) boats could handle any attack and
>> they could do it much cheaper
> 
> If he is taking 24 warships to India with the intent of attacking, he is
> going to get his butt whipped. India has a blue water navy with carriers
> and a decent air force with land/sea strike capability, plus a good
> handful of nukes. India could not take on the entire US navy, but a
> Carrier Battle Group they could probably handle.
> 
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Linda Herd 
>> wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> I am relaying to you what Carl heard on 104.1. Yesterday in the
>> afternoon he heard that Obama was taking 24 war ships to India with
>> him. I do not like the sound of this. I do not think it is gossip
>> either because of the source.
>>
>> He is leaving today if I am not wrong. Someone in this country or
>> several someones need to stop this. It is to the observer as to what
>> this means. If this does not say something to Obama lovers I could not
>> imagine why.
>>
>> Tell me this was wrong because I trust what Carl says he heard and I
>> think you would agree with that.
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> -- 
>> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
>> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
>> members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to
>> trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for
>> yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> "no cause is lost if there is but one fool to fight for it"
>> ~Will Turner~
>> ~Pirate's of the Caribbean @ World's End~
>>
>> "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they
>> are free." ~Goethe
>>
>> www.moliberty.org
>>
>> http://417-political-pundit.blogspot.com
>>
>> The power to tax involves the power to destroy.
>> ~Justice John Marshall~
>>
>> Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean
>> politics won't take an interest in you!
>> -Pericles (430 B.C.)
>>
>> A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law.
>> ~Justice John Marshall~
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
>> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
>> members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to
>> trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for
>> yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric Vought
> "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make
> moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much
> responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction."
> 

-- 
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RE: [MoLiCo] Muslims in the United States

[Jeremy D. Young]

I doubt I am the only one that has trouble understanding you.  Repeating 
yourself doesn't increase understanding.

On the issue of the Cordoba Project aka Park 51, aka "Terror Mosque", what 
should the New York City, New York State, or Federal Government do?

JDY - Nothing.  If the land is purchased according to existing laws, and the 
builders acquire all of the required permits, then they should be allowed to 
build a building there.

You assert that Islam is evil, and speak in support of people that want to 
"stop the invasion of Islam", but I'm trying to define exactly what you are in 
support of doing to "oppose the evil of Islam".

What can we do domestically to ensure that Sharia law is not instituted?

JDY - Reaffirm the Constitution of the United States.  Oppose all laws that 
create exclusions and exceptions for the favored few.  Repeal unconstitutional 
laws.  Change the rules of Congress.  Roll back the expansion of Executive 
powers.  Make invalid all the laws that were not written by Congress (IRS, 
Departments of Education, Energy, etc).

In your prescription against the evils of Islam, what should the United States 
Federal Government do?

JDY - Slow orderly transfer of all territory back to the people that live in 
Afghanistan and Iraq.  This is not weakness, this is a correction of a wrong 
action.

Are you in support of preemptive war against Iran?  

JDY - No.  If necessary, slowly transfer all purchases of Oil from the Middle 
East to other sources.

How do we identify which of the Muslims in the world are evil enough to make 
war against?

JDY - War should never be started by the United States.  If someone is an 
actual threat to our Nation, we should act swiftly and decisively.  This would 
never require occupation of foreign lands.  

Does someone being evil justify starting a war with them?

JDY - No. 

How about using unmanned drones to kill them and anyone near them?

JDY - This really amounts to playing God.  This is a dangerous policy, and 
should almost never be used.

Should we bomb evil people?

JDY - Bombing Iraq for 10 years did not topple Saddam Hussein.

Should we occupy the lands militarily of nations led by evil people?

JDY - Iraq was too costly in American lives, in American fortunes, and in Iraqi 
lives as well.  Afghanistan was as well.

Maybe I'm just quacking around here, but I don't see how you can assume that we 
understand all the consequences of your ideas of "Islam is evil".

Jeremy D. Young


--- On Mon, 11/1/10, Jerry Blevins  wrote:

> From: Jerry Blevins 
> Subject: RE: [MoLiCo] Muslims in the United States
> To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 10:39 AM
> I answered your question, maybe you
> do have a problem of understanding, but
> here it is again:
> " In regard to conditions you take away the rights of a
> citizen (and 
> > most of the people we are talking about are not
> citizens) is TREASON, 
> > that is what our Constitution calls for."
> 
> Jerry
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Jeremy D.
> Young
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:25 AM
> To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Muslims in the United States
> 
> No, the problem is that you've responded with links and
> DUCKS and all
> kinds of other things that are vague.
> 
> So you agree that not all Muslims are evil.  I'm glad
> we could establish
> that.
> 
> I don't see why you have trouble understanding how I came
> to the
> conclusion from your statements:
> 
> Islam is evil -> must believe in Islam to be Muslim
> -> Muslims are evil
> 
> You can't just write a paragraph or two and be fully
> understood.
> 
> OK, two questions:
> 
> 1) Repeating the first.  What is the process for
> taking away someone's
> freedom while they reside in the United States?
> 
> 2) What is the difference between citizens and foreign
> nationals when
> deciding to take away their freedoms or rights?
> 
> 
> On 11/01/2010 07:19 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> > This is to Jeremy, let me correct a few things here,
> Jeremy you have used
> > what I wrote to mean something that it does not
> say.  I said:
> > "I think we get caught up with words meaning different
> things to different
> > people, however one thing is for sure, Islam is evil,
> and I guess if you
> > have to believe in Islam to be a Muslim then you have
> to believe in evil
> and
> > for me I am in opposition to evil, others may see
> nothing wrong with evil
> > and that is their problem."
> > 
> > I did say that Isl

Re: [MoLiCo] Muslims in the United States

[Jeremy D. Young]

No, the problem is that you've responded with links and DUCKS and all
kinds of other things that are vague.

So you agree that not all Muslims are evil.  I'm glad we could establish
that.

I don't see why you have trouble understanding how I came to the
conclusion from your statements:

Islam is evil -> must believe in Islam to be Muslim -> Muslims are evil

You can't just write a paragraph or two and be fully understood.

OK, two questions:

1) Repeating the first.  What is the process for taking away someone's
freedom while they reside in the United States?

2) What is the difference between citizens and foreign nationals when
deciding to take away their freedoms or rights?


On 11/01/2010 07:19 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> This is to Jeremy, let me correct a few things here, Jeremy you have used
> what I wrote to mean something that it does not say.  I said:
> "I think we get caught up with words meaning different things to different
> people, however one thing is for sure, Islam is evil, and I guess if you
> have to believe in Islam to be a Muslim then you have to believe in evil and
> for me I am in opposition to evil, others may see nothing wrong with evil
> and that is their problem."
> 
> I did say that Islam is evil, I did not say that all Muslims are evil, that
> is a big difference and that needs to be corrected here.  That would be like
> saying that some of the things Democrats or Republicans subscribe to are
> evil and some of them are, that all Democrats and Republicans are evil, that
> just is not true.  Otherwise Jeremy you have taken my statements out of
> context.
> 
> In regard to conditions you take away the rights of a citizen (and most of
> the people we are talking about are not citizens) is TREASON, that is what
> our Constitution calls for.
> 
> Jerry 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy D.
> Young
> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:29 PM
> To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Muslims Are Evil According to Jerry
> 
> OK.
> 
> Under what conditions can you take away the rights of a citizen of the
> United States?
> 
> This is very basic, and I'm trying to see what the consequences of your
> ideas of "Muslims are evil" turn out to be.
> 
> On 10/31/2010 08:13 PM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
>> This is to Jeremy, I have no problem in an open conversation with this
> group
>> with my own thought's, I just do not like to reinvent the wheel and this
> is
>> why I use and will continue to use information that has already addressed
>> the issue.
>>
>> Jerry
> 

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
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learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

[MoLiCo] Re: From Wendell - Misleading People about Obamacare

[Jeremy D. Young]

1) Obama didn't write the bill.
2) It doesn't contain the word "dhimmi" or dhimmitude or any such thing.
(I searched myself, I didn't rely upon the word of anyone else)

Furthermore, the snopes article linked at the bottom supports statement
2 above.

There's plenty wrong with the Health Care bills that President Obama
signed into law.  There's no reason to spread lies about them.

Obviously, if the bill recognizes that the Government can't force people
to do something that they have religious convictions against, then
that's a foot in the door in winning the overall fight that the
Government doesn't have the right to force anyone to purchase health care.

There's plenty of actual infringement to fight against here.  Why DUCK
it up with racism and bigotry?

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/31/2010 11:24 PM, wendell kerr wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> PATRIOTS,
>  
> Following is a prime example of why I keep saying
> "Knowledge Is Power!"  Please make sure everyone you
> know, including your Congressman and Senators  know that
> you know about Obama's insidious  "Dhimmitude
> Concessions" to the world's Muslims.
>  
>  
> Remember folks, "if it walks like a Duck and quacks like
> a Duck, it's definitely  a Duck!"
>  
>  
> TOGETHER WE STAND -
>DIVIDED WE FALL
>  
>  
>   WENDELL KERR
>GOD BLESS AMERICA
>  
> 
>  GATEWAY TO MUSLIM SHARIA LAW? 
>  
> 
> Dhimmitude -- What does it mean?  
> Obama used it in the health care bill. 
> Now isn't this interesting? It was used in the
> health care law. 
> Every day there's another revelation of what
> Obama and his fellow Democrats are doing to our
> country. 
> Dhimmitude -- I had never heard the word until
> now. Type it into Google  and start reading.
> Pretty interesting. It's on page 107 of the
> healthcare bill. I looked this up on Google and
> yep, it exists. It is a REAL word.
>  
> 
> 
>   *Dhimmitude* - Wikipedia, the free
>   encyclopedia
>   <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude>
> 
> * Origin
>   
> <http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oG7mKGN85MCrgAQBhXNyoA/SIG=124eokei5/EXP=1288669446/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude%23Origin>|
> * Associations and usage
>   
> <http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oG7mKGN85MCrgAQRhXNyoA/SIG=12kgauu6f/EXP=1288669446/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude%23Associations_and_usage>|
> * See also
>   
> <http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oG7mKGN85MCrgAQhhXNyoA/SIG=1261393hk/EXP=1288669446/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude%23See_also>|
> * References
>   
> <http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oG7mKGN85MCrgAQxhXNyoA/SIG=128864112/EXP=1288669446/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude%23References>
> 
> *Dhimmitude is *a neologism first found in
> French denoting an attitude of concession,
> surrender and appeasement towards Islamic
> demands. It *is *derived by adding the
> productive suffix -tude to the Arabic language
> adjective...
> *en.wikipedia.org*/wiki/*Dhimmitude* - Cached
> 
> <http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oG7mKGN85MCrgAPhhXNyoA/SIG=1ac8049ao/EXP=1288669446/**http%3a//74.6.238.254/search/srpcache%3fei=UTF-8%26p=whatr%2bis%2bdefinition%2bfor%2bdhimmitude%26fr=ush-mail%26u=http%3a//cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx%3fq=whatr%2bis%2bdefinition%2bfor%2bdhimmitude%26d=4604969588294842%26mkt=en-US%26setlang=en-US%26w=b700428b,e9fe6828%26icp=1%26.intl=us%26sig=ZsH6aDwe9VKZIWm7hZLmzw-->
> 
> 
>

Re: [MoLiCo] Defend the Constitution

[Jeremy D. Young]

Even though this is inherently not a theological debate, I happen to
believe Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of
God".

However, under our law, we do not seek to judge all sin.  We seek only
to protect people from each other, not themselves.  In that, we should
judge each human by their actions, not their labels.  We have a very
firmly established Due Process that everyone in this country is
deserving of.  Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Judgment for
sin is not the business of Government, unless you'd like to revert to a
Theocracy.  I think there's plenty of counter examples for that in the
Old Testament.

Freedom brings people together.  We don't have to believe the same thing
about the Bible.  We don't have to agree about what constitutes sin.  We
don't even have to agree whether there is a God or what his name is.  We
can agree that the United States has the best form of Government that
has ever been instituted in all of history on this entire planet, and
that we must fight together to preserve it.

Our fight is not primarily against foreign threats.  Our number one
concern is that our very own Government has grown in power so far from
its Constitutional boundaries that there may be nothing left to restrain
it, and prevent Presidents, Federal Reserve Chairmen, and Congressmen
from abusing us and taking away the very things Government was
instituted to protect.  Life, Liberty, and Property.

In the end, I hope that we can agree that every individual on our soil
deserves these basic protections found in the Bill of Rights.  That
anyone that has infringed upon another human being's rights will be
brought to justice and pay properly for the crimes they committed.

If we, as a people, commit crimes of prejudice, bigotry, or racism, then
we defile the Constitution, and we tarnish the ideals that we should all
hold dear.  I am asking all of you to reconsider what you deem to be the
greatest threat against our nation.  Should we defend our nation at the
cost of our Freedom?  Should we allow fear to guide our decisions?
Should we not stand and boldly proclaim:

*I AM NOT AFRAID!*

I will continue to fight for the freedom of my family and my neighbors
without succumbing to the temptations of those that claim to know how to
protect us from evil.

Surely, we are not so very different.

Jeremy D. Young


On 10/31/2010 01:45 PM, D L Wells wrote:
> I'm glad to see that this well-respected person didn't make a blanket
> statement that all Muslims are evil. 
> 
> If someone is spewing or advocating violence, I would expect the
> authorities to be at their door asking questions, whether they're Muslim
> or not.
> 
> Jerry, I think where you and I differ on the matter is this:  I believe
> we should leave the non-violent ones out of the conversation and not
> inadvertently lump them in with the violent criminals.  Making a blanket
> statement about all of Islam or all Muslims does just that.
> 
> It's just too eerily close to what Hitler said:
> /
> "The personification of the devil as the symbol of all /evil/ assumes
> the living shape of the /Jew/."/ -Adolf Hitler/ (/Mein Kampf).
> 
> I can't go down that road by replacing the word "Jew" in this quote with
> the word "Muslim" or "Christian" or "Mexican" or "black person" or
> "brown person" or "Catholic" or "homosexual" or any other term.
> 
> They are all just people to me.  Some are bad and some are good.
> 
> Deb
> 
> 

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Re: [MoLiCo] Muslims Are Evil According to Jerry

[Jeremy D. Young]

Linda,

Yes, clearly there are people in the Middle East that are violent.
History tells us that Muslims went upon a Jihad across all of Northern
Africa and were stopped in Spain.

Unfortunately, Constantine (the first Christian Emperor of Rome)
conquered all of Southern Europe, Israel, Northern (Coastal) Africa,
etc.  So just because a people have made war, while claiming to be a
certain religion, doesn't make it the only way to observe that religion.

Here in the United States, we have to treat all people under the same
law.  We treat everyone as Innocent until proven Guilty.  No exceptions
for Race, Religion, Nationality, Gender, etc.

Furthermore, when I told you of the contents of the Quran, I wasn't
arguing that it was true or harmless, simply that the statement "the
Quran is full of hate and violence" was untrue.

There are millions of Muslims that want peace.  They want to live in
their nation and conduct their lives as they see fit.  Many of them are
even starting to want the freedom that our nation used to stand for.
However, in the name of the "War on Terror", our nation is eroding those
basic freedoms.  We are becoming LESS American, Less free.

The "War on Terror" does not justify the loss of Freedoms that so many
are foisting upon us.  I will stand up and fight for the freedom of
people that I disagree with.  I will never support the oppression of an
individual based upon a label.

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/31/2010 04:19 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Folks,
>  
> Does this help any of you?  There has been a debate on channel BTV over
> whether or not Islam is a religion of peace or it is a religion of war.
> Both sides were Muslims. One said she was reading out the Que'ran and
> she read that Mohammad wrote that Muslims were to enslave infidels. I
> did not read that. Maybe I missed that. They disagreed with each other
> and it was still never resolved. The one woman said she had been a
> Muslim but converted because it was violent religion. I do not know
> about you but I am having a difficult time, and more than ever, deciding
> in what to believe about Islam. What a conundrum. If they themselves
> cannot agree there is a worse problem than before. The audience voted on
> the two and decided that it leaned toward the not peaceful side. They
> were saying look at the History of Islam which shows that it is not
> peaceful. There are peaceful and non peaceful Christians. I am on the
> peaceful side. Is it possible that war like people are in every religion
> and translate their holy book as such. There are peaceful people that
> live in the same country that translate their holy book as being
> pleaceful. In order words it is all projection. I can believe this
> because of the Christians I have known. "If you are a Christian and you
> believe in the Old Testament, then you are probably believe in violence
> for protection at least. If you are a Christian and believe only that
> Jesus's word are true, then you believe in a peaceful religion. In
> addition it does not seem that their government believes that Muslim is
> a peaceful one. How does that sound?
>  
> Linda Herd

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Re: [MoLiCo] Muslims Are Evil According to Jerry

[Jeremy D. Young]

OK.

Under what conditions can you take away the rights of a citizen of the
United States?

This is very basic, and I'm trying to see what the consequences of your
ideas of "Muslims are evil" turn out to be.

On 10/31/2010 08:13 PM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> This is to Jeremy, I have no problem in an open conversation with this group
> with my own thought's, I just do not like to reinvent the wheel and this is
> why I use and will continue to use information that has already addressed
> the issue.
> 
> Jerry

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
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Re: [MoLiCo] Muslims Are Evil According to Jerry

[Jeremy D. Young]

Fred, thank you for your thoughts on the matter.

Let me preface this by saying that I am not attempting to argue that
Islam is valid, or in its normal practice is good.  Many nations that
profess to be led by Muslims oppress the women of their lands and have
no justice extended to non Muslims.

However, when talking about what we do in the United States, I am
stating very clearly that it is completely unjust to deny God given
rights to people just because we have determined that there is a label
affixed to them that is undesirable by a portion of our population.

I am replying to each concept in-line below:

On 10/31/2010 03:06 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote:
> Jeremy,
>  
> If you remember history, Ronald Reagan called the Soviet Union an evil
> empire because of the Communist political and economic system that was
> imposed on its own citizens and that its leaders sought to impose on the
> rest of the world. 

1) Ronald Reagan was not Jesus.  He is not an ideal that all people
should aspire to.  He may have been the best President since WWII, but
that really isn't saying saying much.

2) The Soviet Union may have been an evil empire, but it was an
oppressive government.  Did Ronald Reagan call the oppressed citizens of
the USSR evil?  Were they evil when they fled the USSR and immigrated to
the United States?

> I want you to understand in no uncertain terms that I
> personally believe that Islam and all those that believe in it's
> teachings are in the very same way evil. 

All Muslims, even those that were born in the United States are evil in
the same way that the USSR was evil?

All Muslims, even those that have integrated into our society, and have
taken on the American way of life are evil?

Do all Muslims follow all of the beliefs of Islam, or are some Muslims
wishy washy?

Are Muslims just evil in the sense that every human being is fallen and
sinful, or do they have an additional badness to them?

Is every Muslim plotting the death and destruction of every unbeliever
that they come in contact with?

> Islam is not really a religion
> but is a disguise put on a totalitarian political and economic system
> whose primary goal is to subjugate all nations to their system.

Do all 1 billion plus Muslims really believe what you say to be true?

Do the Muslims that were born here believe this?

Do even all of the African Muslims believe this?

How about the Malaysian Muslims?

Do all nations that have a majority Muslim population have a Muslim
government?  (Turkey?)

> The first amendment to the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law
> respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
> exercise thereof;". Therefore, the very basics of Islam as a political
> system which seeks to impose the Islamic religion on all, is a violation
> of the foundation of this nation. 

> To pretend that Muslims do not
> subscribe to a political and economic system which advocates the
> overthrow and conquest of all others is willful disregard of the
> evidence, facts and testimony of its own leaders.
>  
> Some Muslims want to have their cake and eat it too as residents of this
> country where freedom allows them to be successful and wealthy far
> beyond what would be possible in most of the Muslim dominated societies
> of the world. 

This is the American dream.  It is available to everyone no matter their
nation of origin, religion, color, etc.  If they break the laws, they
will be punished just like anyone else that has come here, or was born
here.

> However, the teachings of Islam when fully implemented
> will destroy our nation just as surely as Communism would have if it had
> been allowed to take root. The ultimate failure of both systems would
> leave the citizens of our nation much poorer, without equal protection
> under law, and without the economic opportunities that have made this
> nation great.
>
> Fred

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This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
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Re: [MoLiCo] Muslims Are Evil According to Jerry

[Jeremy D. Young]

So, I did not misunderstand your position then?

What exactly does it take to be categorized as "evil" Jerry?

How many counter examples will convince you that you cannot categorize
over 1 Billion people as being the same?

I have persisted in my conversations with Linda because she actually
shared her thoughts and tried to reach an understanding.  I of course
will afford you the same if you choose to start having a conversation
instead of merely forwarding the thoughts of other people.  Those other
people are not present, and I cannot try to convince them of anything.
Please present your own thoughts, and attempt to respond to questions
directly, or there can be no progress for anyone.

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/31/2010 12:26 PM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> This link might put some light on this discussion, don’t know however, a
> lot of people seem to not want to accept the truth.  We must face the
> fact that Islam is evil and if you must believe in Islam to be a Muslim
> (and you do), then the people who subscribe to that have to believe in
> evil and that is the truth.
> 
>  
> 
> Look at what a well respected person says:
> 
>  
> 
> http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnPlayer.swf?aid=11991
> 
>  
> 
> Jerry
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Linda Herd
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 30, 2010 11:06 PM
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Cc:* jeremydyo...@sbcglobal.net
> *Subject:* Re: Fw: [MoLiCo] Terrorists
> 
>  
> 
> I could not say it better. I knew we were not so far apart. This is
> great. Read the email forwarded on the health care reform.
> 
>  
> 
> Linda
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> *From:* Jeremy D. Young 
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Sat, October 30, 2010 7:10:56 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Fw: [MoLiCo] Terrorists
> 
> That was a reply to Jerry :)
> 
> I'll try to be more explicit when I use "you".
> 
> I want to also make it clear that I do not believe that the United
> States deserves to be the target of terrorism.  I also do not believe as
> some outside this list have claimed that terrorists attack us because
> we're free and rich and prosperous.  They do not hate our way of life or
> our freedoms.
> 
> Through a combination of real events, lies, propaganda, and more, the
> terrorists have been whipped into a fervor by leaders with an agenda.
> If there was absolutely nothing true about the things these leaders say,
> they would never convince anyone to follow them.  The horrors of war
> provide them with plenty of material to expand upon and twist into
> motivational lies for their aims.  The United States military *has*
> killed civilians in their lands.  I believe strongly that our young men
> and women serving in the military would never kill civilians
> intentionally or without qualms.  However the nature of war and conflict
> is that things happen quickly and accidents happen.  Especially in urban
> areas.
> 
> The terrorists capitalize on these real accidents and mistakes and
> attribute evil motivations to the United States.  They claim that the
> United States military kills their women and children to punish them for
> being Muslims, or to destroy their way of life.  These are not true, but
> the only way to remove their ability to spread these lies is to stop
> occupying their lands.
> 
> It is a very foreign concept to the founders of the United States that
> we should be in foreign lands to spread Democracy, or to rebuild their
> nation into one that is favorable to our aims (buying lots of Oil).
> 
> I have much more to say, but I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Jeremy D. Young
> 
> On 10/30/2010 02:40 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
>> Yes, I did think that the Que'ran taught evil. The evil in it is that it
>> talks of punishment on almost every page. Terrorists have left us with
>> that Idea. If you want to discuss what I used to think before I
>> corrected myself, then there will be more emails about what I thought,
>> not what I have learned. Give me a kudo for being intelligent enough to
>> go to the source because of you and Tom and Eric. I could have done it
>> sooner and that would have been a blessing. I didn't read it soon
>> enough and I would like some expression that you admit that I have
>> changed my mind after my research. That does not mean that I think the
>> terrorists are not strong and evil. That is something that without the
>> President aiding and abetting we still would be in danger. They as you
>> know  they do not

Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists

[Jeremy D. Young]

Replies to Linda below:

On 10/30/2010 01:42 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Jerry,
>  
> Yes, I said that all Muslim Terrorists are evil. I even thought their
> Bible was evil. I found out by reading it that Mohammad was not evil.
> Hence, I changed my mind about that. I come to the belief that there are
> vast numbers of terrorists who use the Que'ran to say that is what they
> should do. They are the ones who have led us to believe that they are
> simply doing what Mohammad would want them to do via the Que'ran.
> Suicide bombing is insane and that makes the terrorists insane. I feel
> truely sorry for the majority of Muslims who have to live under the
> Government that has twisted their beliefs.

On the one hand, people get the Government they deserve.  That
definitely doesn't excuse oppression, but I don't think that we can
expect to go in and change an entire culture through the use of our
military.

> I am sorry I hadn't read it before. Having studied many religions I had
> not read their Holy Book. The one part that I see is that Mohammad kept
> repeating over and over how Allah would punish the evil people. These
> terrorists have decided that they should help God punish infidels now.
> Hell, fire and brimstone is all over the place and almost on each page.
> This makes their God a punishing God to the limit. Evil people twist
> words, lie, deceive, kill and so much more. The twisted fact is that the
> terrorists themselves say that their God told them to spread Muslimism
> to the world by any means necessary. The fact that I haved changed my
> mind about all Muslims is not apparently understood. I see now and I can
> admit I made a mistake. Yet, has any one else read the Que'ran? Parts of
> it maybe. It is not nearly as long as the Bible. Anyone of you could
> read in in one day like I did. I didn't even buy the book. I went to
> Barnes and Noble and stood up to read it. I looked into several books on
> the Muslim way.

I don't want to give the impression that I ever thought that the Quran
is true, or equally valid when compared with the Jewish Old Testament,
or the Christian New Testament.  I think there is quite a bit
questionable about Islam in general and Mohammad in particular.  Being
wrong is not grounds for taking away anyone's freedom or property rights.

> Now we all know the Que'ran is different than what we thought. Now when
> I talk about terrorism I would think that any body could understand that
> I am not lumping all Muslims into terroristic Muslims. I do not think
> that is understood by all even though it doesn't take an Einstein to
> understand. Since I am not getting through to some, I guess the best
> thing to do is allow them to believe something that is not true. If that
> is what they want I should give it to them. No?
> I appreciate your words and I truly realize I was wrong. On the other
> side that does not make a great difference in the way some others
> perceive my new understanding. They think that I still am lumping all of
> them into the same basket. I am not. Maybe, just maybe, this will
> improve understanding.

I think we're doing pretty good with what you've said so far.  Should I
throw another curve your way?  Not all Terrorists are Muslims?  :D

> By the way for the ones who believe whatever they believe, do you all
> not fear the terrorists and what they plan to do next?

Absolutely not.  I am not afraid.

http://www.downsizedc.org/etp/campaigns/77

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/12/refuse_to_be_te.html

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/08/what_the_terror.html

> As long as Obama
> is in the ideas of pushing off on our people his agenda by appointing
> some people who espouse to be peaceful but have been in Communistic
> organizations and had relationships with terrorism to high places we
> still face inordinate problems. He is coming out more and more. People
> can see that he is not what he presented himself to be. He will win if
> he can pass amnesty. He, himself is a dangerous man and should not have
> been allowed to run for the presidency.
> I agree that I thought something that was not true. I sinned. I have
> asked God for his forgiveness. May I ask forgiveness from you the
> people? Would you forgive me? I have, actually.

You don't need to be forgiven for being wrong.  Relax.  This list is a
place for learning on all of our parts.  Hopefully you all will teach me
a great number of things before the year is out. :)

> Linda Herd
> 

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Re: Fw: [MoLiCo] Terrorists

[Jeremy D. Young]

That was a reply to Jerry :)

I'll try to be more explicit when I use "you".

I want to also make it clear that I do not believe that the United
States deserves to be the target of terrorism.  I also do not believe as
some outside this list have claimed that terrorists attack us because
we're free and rich and prosperous.  They do not hate our way of life or
our freedoms.

Through a combination of real events, lies, propaganda, and more, the
terrorists have been whipped into a fervor by leaders with an agenda.
If there was absolutely nothing true about the things these leaders say,
they would never convince anyone to follow them.  The horrors of war
provide them with plenty of material to expand upon and twist into
motivational lies for their aims.  The United States military *has*
killed civilians in their lands.  I believe strongly that our young men
and women serving in the military would never kill civilians
intentionally or without qualms.  However the nature of war and conflict
is that things happen quickly and accidents happen.  Especially in urban
areas.

The terrorists capitalize on these real accidents and mistakes and
attribute evil motivations to the United States.  They claim that the
United States military kills their women and children to punish them for
being Muslims, or to destroy their way of life.  These are not true, but
the only way to remove their ability to spread these lies is to stop
occupying their lands.

It is a very foreign concept to the founders of the United States that
we should be in foreign lands to spread Democracy, or to rebuild their
nation into one that is favorable to our aims (buying lots of Oil).

I have much more to say, but I'll leave it at that.

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/30/2010 02:40 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Yes, I did think that the Que'ran taught evil. The evil in it is that it
> talks of punishment on almost every page. Terrorists have left us with
> that Idea. If you want to discuss what I used to think before I
> corrected myself, then there will be more emails about what I thought,
> not what I have learned. Give me a kudo for being intelligent enough to
> go to the source because of you and Tom and Eric. I could have done it
> sooner and that would have been a blessing. I didn't read it soon
> enough and I would like some expression that you admit that I have
> changed my mind after my research. That does not mean that I think the
> terrorists are not strong and evil. That is something that without the
> President aiding and abetting we still would be in danger. They as you
> know  they do not fight fairly. Even less fairly than we have done
> unless I do not know the extent of what the U.S.A. has done. Are there
> any books that point out all the facts about what America has done? The
> one I have about terrorism is quite enlightening. I would suggest any
> one read it. I have read enough that I could loan it to any of you and
> then request that it be passed it on to any of you. I do not think
> anyone could read it all because it is as boring as the Que'ran. It
> would be interesting and enlightening to see it and peruse it. Anyone
> want to come get it? I live at 445 South Main avenue and my phone number
> is 865-5729 to let me know when you would come to get it.
>  
> Linda Herd
> 
> - Forwarded Message 
> *From:* Jeremy D. Young 
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Sat, October 30, 2010 2:58:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists
> 
> So you therefore disagree with Linda, Eric, Deb, and myself.
> 
> I believe that Islam is false, but not that Muslims are any more evil
> than all the other fallen human beings on the planet.
> 
> I also vehemently oppose the idea that the United States government
> should be defining which religion is true, or which sect of which
> religion has it correct.
> 
> In the United States, everyone has the God given right to hold false
> beliefs.  As long as they don't take actions that infringe upon others'
> rights, they can believe whatever they want, no matter how dangerous you
> think their beliefs are.  Their motives and beliefs only come into play
> when attempting to convict those individuals of crimes against the other
> humans around them.
> 
> This is not just a matter of disagreement over words.  This is a matter
> of whether you want to violate the rights of human beings in this
> country based upon bigotry, racism, and religious wars.  You say you are
> "in opposition to evil".  What actions do you propose we take against
> this "evil", and how do we identify it or them?
> 
> Ideas have consequences, and the consequences of categorizing all of a
> Race or Religion as evil and in need of opposition DIRECTLY leads to
> war, oppression, and the de

Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists

[Jeremy D. Young]

In Reply to Linda:

On 10/30/2010 03:00 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Eric, Jeremy and Tom,
>  
> I am here in awe that you three still think we hate all Muslims and put
> all Muslims in one category. 

I think we're OK on this part.  I was talking about Jerry.

> I have never been racist. 

Jerry however has given me frequent impressions that he is in fact
Racist and continues to persist in it.  I will let him respond to that.

> My parents were
> quite adequate in their raising us three that I have always known that
> the color of skin or the religion is not to be treated like a person is
> not good or should not have the same rights that we have. Never. With
> the Muslims I now know that their Bible is not what the terrorists are
> using. They use it however to have an excuse to help them in killing all
> infidels. And that my friends is the biggest lie of all. One of my best
> friends is Black, I have friends who are homosexual, democrats,
> republicans, way too religious, atheists, wikcans whose holy one is the
> earth and whatever else there is. I even have friends who have broken
> the law but have repented. Ones who have committed adultery, cheated on
> income taxes, drove like maniacs, cursed (I even say a word or two now
> and again), hurt other people and repented. All have a soul from God.
> When God enters the body of an unborn it starts moving. I have friends
> that are trees and animals, etc. All life is God and even rocks and
> water and sunlight. All is of God. Even people who have killed can
> repent and make right with God. I would even had married a black man if
> he were compatible and more so than others. Racism is of ignorance. The
> woman next door to me is a wonderful friend of mine. We laugh about
> prejudice and how ridiculous it can get.
>  
> When are the three of you going to understand that you are wrong in that
> some of us clump all people of some race or religion or for me sexuality
> into the same place? Please understand this. I could say I am begging on
> my hands and knees. Read. Learn. 

I believe you, Linda.

> Bye,
> 
>  
> 
> Linda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *From:* Eric Vought 
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Sat, October 30, 2010 2:25:36 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists
> 
> 
> On Oct 30, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> 
>> I think we get caught up with words meaning different things to
> different people, however one thing is for sure, Islam is evil, and I
> guess if you have to believe in Islam to be a Muslim then you have to
> believe in evil and for me I am in opposition to evil, others may see
> nothing wrong with evil and that is their problem.
> 
> 
> Believing you can strip someone's Elohim-given rights from them on the
> basis of a broad categorization as opposed to because of an adjudicated
> crime-in-fact is, to me, "evil". In fact, I cannot come up with a better
> definition for "evil" and it seems to be exactly what you accuse all
> Muslims of attempting to do, Why is it right for *us* to do it?
> 
> Even in the case of actual crime, civil authority and punishment is not
> final. We judge people on earth from a limited and distorted perspective
> ("through a glass, darkly" 1 Cor 13:12) because we need to in order for
> "civilization" to operate. We punish out of necessity to preserve
> "ordered liberty" but even our courts are not the final judge of Right
> and Wrong. There is no call whatsoever to hate even when someone has
> been *convicted* of a crime, let alone when they have not , when their
> only crime, often as not, is being raised to a belief which is simply
> mistaken.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric Vought
> "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make
> moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much
> responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction."
> 
> --This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
> members.  If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to
> trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, learn how to do this for
> yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.
> 
> -- 
> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
> members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash,
> ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If
> you do not, you will be here forever.

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This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
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learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

[MoLiCo] Terrorist Threat to Cargo

[Jeremy D. Young]

I agree with Bruce Schneier and his take on the effects of Terrorism.
It is not the terrorism itself that harms our nation, it is our response
to it.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/10/cargo_security.html

Terrorism should be counteracted, but not by the whole of the population
being afraid.

I am not afraid.

http://www.downsizedc.org/etp/campaigns/77

Jeremy D. Young

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This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
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learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists

[Jeremy D. Young]

So you therefore disagree with Linda, Eric, Deb, and myself.

I believe that Islam is false, but not that Muslims are any more evil
than all the other fallen human beings on the planet.

I also vehemently oppose the idea that the United States government
should be defining which religion is true, or which sect of which
religion has it correct.

In the United States, everyone has the God given right to hold false
beliefs.  As long as they don't take actions that infringe upon others'
rights, they can believe whatever they want, no matter how dangerous you
think their beliefs are.  Their motives and beliefs only come into play
when attempting to convict those individuals of crimes against the other
humans around them.

This is not just a matter of disagreement over words.  This is a matter
of whether you want to violate the rights of human beings in this
country based upon bigotry, racism, and religious wars.  You say you are
"in opposition to evil".  What actions do you propose we take against
this "evil", and how do we identify it or them?

Ideas have consequences, and the consequences of categorizing all of a
Race or Religion as evil and in need of opposition DIRECTLY leads to
war, oppression, and the destruction of entire peoples.

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/30/2010 12:41 PM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> I think we get caught up with words meaning different things to
> different people, however one thing is for sure, Islam is evil, and I
> guess if you have to believe in Islam to be a Muslim then you have to
> believe in evil and for me I am in opposition to evil, others may see
> nothing wrong with evil and that is their problem.
> 
>  
> 
> Jerry
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *D L Wells
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 30, 2010 10:35 AM
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists
> 
>  
> 
> Linda, I understood Tom to say that he is glad to hear that you don't
> think all Muslims are bad.  I can see why he believed you did think that
> way because based on some of your previous comments, I thought the same
> thing - so many of your statements appear to be blanket statements about
> ALL Muslims and that ALL Muslims use violence per their Holy book,
> without discernment.  I have read everything you've written and keep all
> emails for reference.
>  
> Linda, these are your words and why I thought you were referring to ALL
> Muslims -
> 
> Aug 30 - /I suppose we should go over to *the muslim countrie* and build
> as many churches as we can in their most special places where they
> consider it to be holy, if they understand the word. I'm sorry, Tom, I
> do believe they are evil./
> 
> Sept 6 - /This nation at this time has beome ill and *the Muslims* can
> see that. They are going to use this crisis to their advantages. They
> crept us on us using the charming, charismatic, psycopath to do just
> what they have planned./
> 
> Sept 7 - /I also would agree with you if I hadn't read the multitudous
> messages that I have seen that proves to me that indeed *the Muslims*
> intend to take us. Some of the videos I've seen are insidious. They plan
> to make the national religion, Muslim.It is ourt duty and that fact is
> in their "Holy" book. How do I know? It is stated in their Qura'n. If
> any one does not think that they drew us into the war, they may be
> somewhat unknowing concerning their truist beliefs./
> 
> Sept 10 - */The muslims/*/ are amused that we let them pray in our
> streets in traffic. Traffic is made to stop for them. I dare you to go
> out in any street and start pray to you God./
> 
> Sept 10 - /I noticed Obama was saying we should all be able to worship
> God whatever you call him. His God is Allah. *Their written instructions
> in their book are mean and evil.* Their job is to proselytize all of us
> on earth one way or the other.  I do not want their evil in the middle
> of any city or town here. They are dangerous is what I am trying to say.
> It has nothing to do with Religious Freedom. It's a matter of National
> Security. I do not hate gays, nor any harmless groups. *They are harmful
> by the very book they believe* that they are to overtake us by stealing,
> lieing, killing, surreptitiously, stoning, assassination, planning in
> their Mosques, burning buildings, bombing, and it goes on and on. Any
> one who thinks they just need our religious freedom is give them the
> O.K. to plan against us amongst us./
> 
> Sept 14 - /Let's put it this way. *The Muslims* like to make us believe
> that we are not protecting their right to freedom of religion. Let them
> do it in their count

[MoLiCo] Profiling

[Jeremy D. Young]

Separate emails about each item that I think is relevant to the overall
discussion:

I am against categorizing people by Race, Nationality, or Religion for
purposes of law enforcement.

I think that each individual needs the protections that have been
outlined in the Bill of Rights, and that association with some "enemy
group" should not infringe upon their individual rights.

Jeremy D. Young

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learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists

[Jeremy D. Young]

That was me, Jeremy, not Tom.

Well, the problem is that this entire conversation I've been trying to
narrow the discussion to exactly what you're trying to say, and I still
don't understand you.

On the issue of the "Ground Zero" "mosque".  Which of the people
involved in building this are terrorists in your mind?  Is it Feisal
Abdul Rauf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf)?  I'm
curious who we should identify as terrorists.

I will continue below:


On 10/30/2010 01:03 AM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Well Tom,
>  
> I am almost irritated. You took that sentence out of context. Man, where
> did you get what you have said below. We are _not_ saying that *_all
> Muslims_* are inherently at odds with our nation's existence. Cut that
> out my friend. That is a down right prevarication or you have not been
> reading what I write. I have said it so many times that all Muslims are
> not terrorists. I believe that I could write until I have no more to
> give that not all Muslims are terrorists. That is so much of what you
> do. I feel like I am back in teaching. I had to repeat myself over and
> over and over. It usually takes the average person 13 times to hear
> something before they learn what you have to impart. Have I failed to
> write it 13 times. You are smarter than the avereage student. It should
> only take you 3 or 4 times of repeating. I read so much I knew it before
> the lecture.
> *__* 
> *_Not all Muslims are evil, inherently or otherwise!_*  Did you get
> that? You couldn't have read what I have been writing. I save my emails
> and know I have repeated my self ad nauseum. I hope Eric and Jeremy
> understand that, but maybe not. *_Not all Muslims are evil and are not
> terrorists._* Is that clear enough? 


> I am wondering why you spend so much time trying to make me look ignorant. 

I can honestly say that I have never spent any time with the intent of
making you look ignorant.  I have taken issue with what I understood to
be your statements by isolating those statements and asking questions
about those statements.

> I know that all three of you are very intelligent. I read what you say. 
> I know where you stand. I so hope you understand this email!

I wish that I could be confident that you understand my position.  I get
very little feedback that responds directly to the things that I write,
so I have very little to work with.

Recently I wrote explicit points that I support, but I don't think that
email was replied to by anyone.

> Still your friend,
>  
> Linda Herd
>  
>  
> 
> 
> *From:* Jeremy D. Young 
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Thu, October 28, 2010 8:34:52 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists
> 
> Inline responses to Linda below:
> 
> On 10/27/2010 04:25 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
>> Eric,
>> 
>> It is time to ask the question leaving out the freedom of religion?
> 
> No. Absolutely, unquestioningly no.  You can never "leave out" freedom.
> Freedom is what this nation was founded upon, and the reason that it
> EVER became great.
> 
>> I would be the only person who would ask this question.
> 
> No, you're not the only one asking this question.  You, Jerry, and Fred
> have all made statements that imply that Muslims are inherently at odds
> with our nation's existence.
> 
>> Why do you take up for the group that this group perceives as the enemy.
> 
> Just because a group is labeled an enemy doesn't make them inhuman.  I
> would also argue that it is impossible to justly apply a label of enemy
> to all individuals based upon outward appearance, nationality, religion,
> gender, etc.  That is unless they're wearing a uniform that identifies
> them as military personnel of a nation we're at war with.  That's a
> generally accepted identifying trait.
> 
>> What is in this for you?
> 
> My very own freedom and yours is in it for me.  To encourage the state
> to remove the freedoms of ANYONE because of an arbitrary label is
> anathema to our nation.  Period.
> 
>> Linda Herd
>>
> 
> -- 
> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
> members.  If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to
> trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, learn how to do this for
> yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.
> 
> -- 
> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
> members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash,
> igno

Re: [MoLiCo] Mosque existed on 17th floor of WTC

[Jeremy D. Young]

You know, the New York Times frequently gets it wrong.  In fact, the
invective of this Jon Ponder shows how clearly that he doesn't quite
understand the Tea Party.  I've been part of the modern day Tea Party
since December 16th, 2007.  This was the day when supporters of Ron Paul
donated a record $6+ Million online in one 24 hour span.

There are two significant aspects to the Tea Party.  There are those who
are against a foreign policy of preemption and destruction.  There are
those who are not.  The most important thing though is that the Tea
Party is united against the growth of government.  We are united towards
the strengthening of the things that make this nation great.  We are for
individual liberty and freedom.  We are all for lower taxes.  We are all
for Constitutional limits on the Federal Government.

Let us not forget how much we fight together for even when we disagree.

Clearly, even though it is a New York Times article, terrorists do not
represent all American Muslims.  The terrorists killed American Muslims
on 9/11 as well.

Jeremy D. Young


On 10/28/2010 08:10 PM, Tom Martz wrote:
> http://www.pensitoreview.com/2010/09/10/the-real-ground-zero-mosque-was-on-the-17th-floor-of-world-trade-centers-south-tower/
> 

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Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists

[Jeremy D. Young]

hings better or worse for Israel?  Are our actions truly
making life better for Afghanis and Iraqis?   Can we afford to repair
the destruction we've caused?

> This danger is getting more dangerous by day. We just need to know what
> there is alive now that we could not handle.

The danger of an economic collapse is far greater than that of our
nation being infiltrated by Muslims and Sharia law being installed.  One
of the most significant factors in the weakness of our economy is our
overseas expenditures.  The interest on the debt is another massive
burden on the American taxpayer, and on the Dollar.  The unfunded
liabilities that our government has promised (far greater than $50
Trillion to Medicare and Social Security) represents a nearly
insurmountable problem that we MUST solve.

Economic instability and extremely hard times are almost guaranteed to
be in our near future.  Why must we be fighting wars overseas and
promising welfare that we can't afford domestically?

If they only convince people that the Dollar is still awesome, it's a
self fulfilling prophecy.  What happens when that fantasy falls apart?
What happens when people realize that dollars are just worthless pieces
of paper?

Jeremy D. Young

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Re: [MoLiCo] Terrorists

[Jeremy D. Young]

Inline responses to Linda below:

On 10/27/2010 04:25 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Eric,
>  
> It is time to ask the question leaving out the freedom of religion?

No. Absolutely, unquestioningly no.  You can never "leave out" freedom.
 Freedom is what this nation was founded upon, and the reason that it
EVER became great.

> I would be the only person who would ask this question.

No, you're not the only one asking this question.  You, Jerry, and Fred
have all made statements that imply that Muslims are inherently at odds
with our nation's existence.

> Why do you take up for the group that this group perceives as the enemy. 

Just because a group is labeled an enemy doesn't make them inhuman.  I
would also argue that it is impossible to justly apply a label of enemy
to all individuals based upon outward appearance, nationality, religion,
gender, etc.  That is unless they're wearing a uniform that identifies
them as military personnel of a nation we're at war with.  That's a
generally accepted identifying trait.

> What is in this for you?

My very own freedom and yours is in it for me.  To encourage the state
to remove the freedoms of ANYONE because of an arbitrary label is
anathema to our nation.  Period.

> Linda Herd
> 

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] how about we fund our own demise

[Jeremy D. Young]

Linda, Jerry, Fred:

I'm not going to try to give a number to how much we agree upon, but I'd
be willing to bet that it's a fairly high percentage.

Here is a list of the things that I am arguing against (even though Eric
may have already hit upon some of these):

1) Categorizing people by Race, Nationality, or Religion for purposes of
law enforcement.

2) Taking away the freedom of anyone in the United States based upon
anything but due process (Accuse them of a SPECIFIC crime, arrest them,
and set a court date).

3) The application of the label "Terrorist" to anyone that has not been
*convicted* of Plotting, Funding, or Executing specific acts of violence
against the public, or publicly announced their intent to do such things.

4) Occupation of foreign lands by United States Military Personnel.

I'm not even going to muddy the water by trying to list all of the
things you might have thought I was defending.

Which of these do we disagree about?

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/28/2010 02:36 PM, Eric Vought wrote:
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 1:14 PM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> 
>> This might fit in answer to “how about we fund our own demise”
>>
>> What's More Important: Liberty Or The Entity That Protects It?
>> By Chuck Baldwin
>> October 28, 2010
>>
>> Archived column:
>> http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/?p=2494
>> [snip]
>>
>> Thomas Jefferson--and the rest of America's founders--believed that
>> freedom was the principal possession, because liberty is a divine--not
>> human--gift. Listen to Jefferson:
>>
>> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
>> equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
>> Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of
>> Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted
>> among Men." (Declaration of Independence)
> [snip]
> 
> I agree whole-heartedly. And that is why I believe it is critical to
> oppose any existing or future threats in the right way and for the right
> reasons.
> 
> I oppose a Muslim beating his wife. But I oppose a Christian who beats
> his wife as well.
> 
> I oppose Muslims threatening physical force to intimidate Christians and
> repress practice of other religions. But I oppose Christians doing the
> same thing to others.
> 
> I oppose a Muslim attempting to undermine the state in favor of special
> interests or involving the state in purely personal and spiritual
> matters. But I oppose any attempt of a Christian to do so as well (that
> is separate from an official *expressing* or *displaying* personal
> spiritual beliefs but decorum dictates that it be done so with tact and
> respect for others).
> 
> I oppose Muslims attempting to indoctrinate public school children in
> their beliefs, but I oppose Christians or any other special interest
> from doing so. For that matter, I oppose public schooling (and
> especially Federally-controlled public schooling) as a whole because I
> do not believe it is possible for the State to educate children
> *without* indoctrinating them into the beliefs of some special interest
> or other.
> 
> If we oppose evil wherever we may find it, then we will oppose evil when
> found in extremist Muslims, Hispanics, Liberals, or whatever the
> boogey-man of the week. But we must also oppose it in Apple Pie-Loving
> American White Anglo-Saxon Christian Volunteer Fireman POWs On a
> Pogo-Stick as well, perhaps even more so. And often, we must just let
> people live and make their own mistakes until they cross the line of
> committing a crime against another.
> 
> I am not oblivious to the evil which has been and is done in the name of
> Islam, but I am also wary (and weary) of the evil which has been
> [misguidedly] committed in the name of Christ. That does not mean
> ("Well, we're just as bad so anything goes...") but rather that *both*
> the pot and the kettle are in need of a good scrubbing. Bad Christians
> and the bad we do ourselves does more to harm the name of Yahoshuah
> Natzarim than bad Muslims. Just like electing a bad Republican to office
> does more harm to Republicans than losing to a bad Democrat. Regardless
> of any other considerations: tactically a bad move.
> 
> A bad Democrat or a bad Muslim does my work for me. A bad Christian or a
> bad Republican (or a bad cop, or...) makes going in the right direction
> that much harder.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric Vought
> "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make
> moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much
> responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction."
> 

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: Fw: [MoLiCo] Going Green Means Going Broke

[Jeremy D. Young]

Eric is really living so many of the things he stands for.  If you read
closely, you'll notice he did not use theoretical examples, but his
actual property on his very own home.

I think you make excellent points here, and I think that we all agree
that we should not allow the government to subsidize or encourage any
particular energy source.  Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that
the Federal Government *IS ALREADY* spending billions and billions of
dollars subsidizing Oil.  We should fight for the removal of the
Department of Energy and for all tax incentives that affect any energy
source.  The market will be a very effective force for guiding the
innovation we need to meet the demands of the long and short term future.

Let the Oil and Coal companies and innovative new technology companies
fight it out on equal footing.  To accomplish this there are a great
number of tax codes that must be repealed as well as entire Executive
Branch departments.

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/12/2010 09:17 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> I have to agree with Eric on this. Some time we will need to use
> alternate energy sources. Did calculators cost more in the beginning? I
> paid $90 of my own hard earned money as a teenager because of the
> technology on calculators. Now they can be bought for as little as
> $5.00. The same with any new technology of our day including what I am
> using to convey my thoughts.
>  
> Any new technology costs more until a profit can be made. These prices
> come down year after year. I do not get this from liars, I have this as
> my idea from what I consider to be reasonable. Coal, oil and other such
> researces are not here forever and would cost more and more. The sun and
> wind are not something that we have to go somewhere else to get. I have
> suspected that Bush acted the way the terrorists wanted us to react.
> Over there they have been able to pick us off due to the terrain. They
> have been able to use it against us. Neither of us won with the
> exception that our money and boys have been used to make us a weaker
> foe. Then Obama continues to break us financially. That is why it is
> called a conspiracy. It wasn't worth it in 2001 to me and I see that it
> did not accomplish what it was supposed to accomplish. They used the
> twin towers against us just as they use our noe using our laws against
> us. Now they are here on our soil waging a war within while the people
> are so ignorant doing exactly what they wanted us to do.
>  
> As I said at some time when we may not even be here we must look into
> alternate energy. I also love trees and know how important they are to
> us. Trees are in a symbiotic relationship with us. They are not
> parasites like the Muslims. We need them. I do not hug them nor do I
> have a site expounding on the problem. I just hope that the people who
> agree with me about our current tradegy brought to us by Muslim
> Terrorists, can some day realize that our energy sources of today will
> not always be here and that we are doing at least some polution by using
> them. Maybe there is no global warming. Maybe there is and it is
> natural. That is not the problem. We can exhaust what we have and it
> will continue getting higher and higher. Look at China and Mexico along
> with Japan's large cities. We can see that some have problems that can
> be attributed to coal and petroleum. I am not going to preach nor try to
> sway anyone's beliefs, but I do agree with Eric on this one. He has
> written several emails with which I agree. He is not an enemy. He just
> disagrees with me on our greatest problem of this day or time.
>  
> Linda Herd 
> 
> - Forwarded Message 
> *From:* Eric Vought 
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Tue, October 12, 2010 9:15:06 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Going Green Means Going Broke
> 
> 
> On Oct 12, 2010, at 5:45 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote:
> 
>> t seems to me that coal, gas, nuclear and hydro (dams - water power)
> are in the lower $100 to $120 range of cost per megawatt hour.  Wind is
> more at $149.3 to $200 and solar $256 to $396.  So then, when people on
> TV who say let us go green, they want you to pay 50% more to 300% more
> or so for what they call clean renewable energy.  Well, let me see
> here.  We talk about a global economy.  How would we then be able to
> compete with the world?  Well China picks coal and France picks nuclear
> for two.  So as long as we have Obama and his friends, we cannot
> compete, costs will just continue to go up, and the US will lose more
> jobs and get into more debt as we can no longer complete.
>>
> 
> It depends. The problem with summary tables like that is it really
> depends on where you are and what the local conditions are. Coal is

Re: [MoLiCo] The Executive Branch's Shocking War Against Internet Privacy

[Jeremy D. Young]

The important things to note from this article are these:

1) The Federal Government will abuse any power it can get its hands on
2) They will use any excuse to make these power grabs they think they
can get away with
3) These power grabs will be abused by future administrations in ways
that the current ones did not "foresee"
4) The Bush Administration grabbed many of the powers the Obama
Administration is now abusing and we are all lambasting him for
5) Therefore you should oppose all grabs for new powers by every single
administration no matter the reasons given for the power grab

Always stand strong for the Constitution and for Individual Rights, even
when the enemy looms large.  Tomorrow, the enemy may be you.

The details of this email are accurate.  The Obama Administration is
basically asking to use the same abuses the PATRIOT ACT gave them for
phone spying on email.  Privacy is important, even for people that
supposedly are getting phone calls from terrorists.  Judicial oversight
should ALWAYS be in place between the FBI or other law enforcement
agencies and the rights of individuals.

I want to read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Government-Told-You-Deception/dp/1595552669

I watched this very interesting one hour program on CSPAN featuring
Ralph Nader interviewing Andrew Napolitano about his new book (linked
above).

http://www.booktv.org/Program/11711/After+Words+Andrew+Napolitano+Lies+the+Government+Told+You+interviewed+by+Ralph+Nader.aspx

I admire The Judge (Andrew Napolitano) a great deal.  He stands on
principles, not inflamed fears or irrationality.

Jeremy D. Young


On 10/11/2010 06:07 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> I do not know anything about this email but just what it says. Have you
> received this?
>  
> Linda Herd
> 
> - Forwarded Message 
> *From:* Lee Bellinger 
> *To:* "linda.h...@sbcglobal.net" 
> *Sent:* Mon, October 11, 2010 4:20:06 PM
> *Subject:* Obama's Shocking War Against Internet Privacy
> 
> Lee Bellinger's   
> View as Webpage
> <http://cl.publicaster.com/ViewInBrowser.aspx?pubids=7889%7c6520%7c27109&digest=m0shkfptaiK4P0k6FI6pPg&sysid=1>
>   
>   
> Pass this Message to a Friend
> <http://cl.publicaster.com/Forward.aspx?pubids=7889%7c6520%7c27109&digest=m0shkfptaiK4P0k6FI6pPg&sysid=1>
> Executive Bulletin
> 
> To:   Linda Herd
> Fr:   Lee Bellinger
> Publisher
> Re:   Obama's Telling Assault Against Personal Privacy
> 
> The Obama Administration's assault on privacy is occurring on so many
> fronts that it is difficult to keep up with all the skirmishes. Let me
> share with you one example of over-reaching that has (thankfully) been
> pushed back for the moment.
> Seeing into your Privacy
> Under pressure from privacy groups and in the wake of embarrassing
> publicity, the Obama Department of Justice has backed off its position
> that it can retrieve and read the email of any U.S. citizen without a
> court order.
> A major privacy coalition had formed to oppose this latest power-grab
> which had been directed at Yahoo by the Obama Justice Department. The
> coalition includes the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Center for
> Democracy and Technology, the Progress and Freedom Foundation, the
> Computer and Communications Industry Association, and even Google.
> (Google executives are not known for their concern about privacy, but
> this Obama Administration move has even gotten their hackles up.)
> Privacy Advocates Note the Federal Assault
> Against Personal Sovereignty
> The privacy coalition warned in a friend-of-the-court brief: "/Society
> expects and relies on the privacy of email messages just as it relies on
> the privacy of the telephone system... the largest email services are
> popular precisely because they offer huge amounts of computer disc space
> in the 'Internet cloud' within which users can warehouse their emails
> for perpetual storage/."
> Unfortunately, this "step back" by the federal government was the
> consequence of bad publicity, not a true change of heart. Which means
> almost certainly they will try again, potentially in the following
> scenarios:
> 
>1. In the wake of another terrorism crisis;
>2. By inserting and burying the necessary legal language into a
>   must-pass piece of future legislation;
>3. By quietly forcing Google and Yahoo to cede to government demands
>   to root through emails through regulatory, financial, or other
>   form of pressure -- such as giving one competitor an advantage
>   over another based on compliance;
>4. Embracing international covenants, agreements, or treaties which
>   "require" the U.S. government to snoop through private emails;
>5. A combi

Re: [MoLiCo] WW III Started In 1979

[Jeremy D. Young]

Don't you have anything at all to contribute to an intelligent
conversation?  These are serious questions that no one seems to be able
to answer in the "World War 3 already started, let's nuke the Middle
East" crowd.

I've been fighting these arguments since I went on Vince's show in 2008
about foreign policy.  Even Vince was convinced that World War 3 had
already started.

I'm proud to be an American, and a Christian, but that doesn't mean that
I think our Government or the American Church is infallible.  These are
human institutions, not divine ones.  The United States of America is
not a Theocracy, nor should it be one.  We are not imbued with a divine
authority to take whatever we desire throughout the world.

These questions get asked over and over again:

Who are the enemies?

Who should have their rights stripped away from them?

Under what procedure should these rights be stripped?

We've asked and asked for clarification through example after example.

You're not contributing Jerry.  Throwing forwards our way is not an
argument.  In fact, now that I re-read Deb's response to you, it's clear
that you didn't read it at all.  Deb is saying that members of the
Department of Homeland Security have labeled US the enemy.  We're
domestic terrorists.  What authority should the government have to take
action against accused terrorists?  What rights should the accused have?
 What should the government be allowed to do to these "Known Terrorists?"

This is *NOT* just a philosophical argument!  This isn't about us
standing up for those "dirty evil muslims".  It's about you and me
having the tables turned right in front of our eyes.

Linda keeps talking about waking up, but you know what?!  You're the
ones being deceived by the "Islamofascist Threat".  Whatever power you
grant them to take against any terrorist will show up in your back yard
next.

You cannot expect the Government to only wield these kinds of horrific
powers against just the "bad guys".  They're going to turn and use it on
someone else's definition of bad guys too. Just ask Elliot Spitzer, the
former Governor of New York.  He was taken down using PATRIOT ACT laws.

A group of people that are interested in working together to shake up
the power structures in Missouri and Washington DC are definitely going
to be the bad guys to some influential people.

Freedom, Liberty, and Justice are not concepts that should apply only to
the White Christian.  They really should be color blind and religion
blind too.

Please think about this and share your thoughts, but keep your quacking,
walking ducks to yourself.

Jeremy D. Young


On 10/11/2010 05:29 PM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is probably a
> duck!
> 
>  
> 
> Jerry
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *D L Wells
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2010 8:35 AM
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Fwd: Fw: WW III Started In 1979
> 
>  
> 
> Who is the enemy? 
> 
> You would have thought that in 31 YEARS, so-called U.S. Intelligence
> would know.  You would have thought they would have known before 9/11 at
> least, and would have thwarted the deaths of 3,000 innocent civilians.
> 
> But, NO.  The "Intelligence" isn't there.  There are an estimated 1,300
> "Intelligence" organizations in the U.S.and they can't figure it out. 
> 
> So, what do people tend do when they don't have a clue?  They point the
> finger at "groups" like Muslims or Mexicans or Christians, or gun rights
> groups, or someone, anyone. 
> 
> Just like the Southern Poverty Law Center does.  They lump Christians,
> gun rights groups, anti-abortion, anti-illegal immigration, and
> supporters of third party candidates into one group and say they are
> domestic terrorists - http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=93067.
> 
> We KILLED that report, but SPLC is back and has even a bigger role to
> play
> 
> As of Spring 2010 - the President and CEO of _Southern Poverty Law
> Center is a member of the Department of Homeland Security _"Countering
> Violent Extremism Working Group".  (See page 27 of this DHS report: 
> http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/hsac_cve_working_group_recommendations.pdf).
> 
> How intelligent is that?
> 
> *Who is the enemy?*
> 
> It can't be ALL Muslims.  There are 10 million of them across the U.S. 
> If they were all bad, our cities would have all been destroyed by now.
> 
> It can't be ALL Mexicans, either.  There are 30 million of them in the
> U.S.  Same thing applies.
> 
> It can

Re: [MoLiCo] WW III Started In 1979

[Jeremy D. Young]

Maybe we should look at the historical information related to Suicide
Terrorism:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/1010/Researcher_Suicide_terrorism_linked_to_military_occupation.html?showall

It would be more honest to also list the historical actions of the west
in the months and years prior to these suicide attacks.

Ideas and Actions have consequences.  Maybe we should reexamine the idea
that we can go to various parts of the world and destroy people and
things without consequences.

Who can tell me what happened in Iran in 1908 and what affect it may
have had on World War I?

Jeremy D. Young


On 10/10/2010 08:47 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Folks,
>  
> I found this and thought if would be helpful to all of you to see
> another time.
>  
> Linda Herd
> 
> - Forwarded Message 
> *From:* Tom Martz 
> *Sent:* Wed, July 28, 2010 9:30:01 PM
> *Subject:* [MoLiCo] Fwd: Fw: WW III Started In 1979
>
> */WW/*/ //*III Started - 1979*//* */*
> 
> **This is not very long, but very informative.** *
>  *You have to read the catalogue of events in this
> brief piece. Then, ask yourself how anyone can take
> the position that all we have to do is bring our
> troops home from Iraq, & Afghanistan then sit back,
> reset the snooze alarm, go back to sleep, and no one
> will ever bother us again. *
>  
> *In case you missed it, World War III began in
> November 1979... That alarm has been ringing for 31
> years!!** **
> **/
> US Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at
> Naval Air Station, Pensacola , Florida ./*
> *This is a copy of the speech he gave last month.*
> *It is an accurate account of why we are in so much
> trouble today and why this action is so necessary.
> **/
> AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!/**
> That's what we think we heard on the 11th of
> September 2001 (When more than 3,000 Americans were
> killed) and maybe it was, but I think it should have
> been 'Get Out of Bed!' In fact, I think the alarm
> clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have
> continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for
> a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.
> 
> It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country
> going through a religious and political upheaval
> when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized
> the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an
> outright attack on American soil; it was an attack
> that held the world's most powerful country hostage
> and paralyzed a Presidency.  *
>  
> *The attack on this sovereign U. S. Embassy set the
> stage for events to follow for the next 31 years.
> 
> America was still reeling from the aftermath of the
> Vietnam experience and had a serious threat from the
> Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do
> something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in
> the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but
> stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal
> with terrorism.
> 
> America 's military had been decimated and down
> sized/right sized since the end of the Vietnam War.
> A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly
> organized military was called on to execute a
> complex mission that was doomed from the start.
> 
> Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began
> to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle
> East. America could do little to protect her
> citizens living and working abroad. The attacks
> against US soil continued.
> 
> In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high
> explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound
> in Beirut.  When it explodes, it kills 63 people.
> The alarm

Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: IN THIS VIDEO "OLD CLEAR EYES BARACK" ADMITS HE IS "NOT NATIVE BORN"

[Jeremy D. Young]

The first part of the video is just rearranged clips of Obama speaking.
 It is "A MASTERFULLY PHOTO SHOPPED VIDEO" in Wendell's words.

Rather silly if you think that the rest of the video is valid to cast
uncertainty on the whole work by presenting fraudulent information at
the start.

Jeremy D. Young


On 10/09/2010 07:15 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> This seems to be real to me. It is quite interesting. I have a folder
> with any thing concerning Obama. He is an important person in our country.
>  
> Linda Herd
> 
> - Forwarded Message 
> *From:* wendell kerr 
> *To:* Jack GOODMAN ; GOP HQ
> ; Nicholas Ibarra 
> *Sent:* Sat, October 9, 2010 12:06:09 AM
> *Subject:* Fw: IN THIS VIDEO "OLD CLEAR EYES BARACK" ADMITS HE IS "NOT
> NATIVE BORN"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PATRIOTS,
>  
> EITHER "OLD CLEAR EYES" FORGOT TO
> READ HIS EVER PRESENT TELE-PROMPTER.  OR HE IS GETTING TIRED  OF
> THE JOB HE IS CONSTITUTIONALLY UNQUALIFIED TO HOLD.  OR THIS IS
> A MASTERFULLY PHOTO SHOPPED VIDEO.
>  
> I AM AN UNABASHED "BIRTHER"  THAT BELIEVES THAT ANYONE THAT IS
> TRULY CONSTITUTIONALLY QUALIFIED TO SERVE AS PRESIDENT OF THE
> UNITED STATES OF AMERICA  WOULD BE HONORED TO PRODUCE  HIS
> ORIGINAL, LONG FORM,  DULY SIGNED AND WITNESSED BIRTH
> CERTIFICATE  AS PROOF OF HIS QUALIFICATION.
>  
>  
> FOR THIS MATTER TO HAVE BEEN COVERED UP AND VIRTUALLY IGNORED 
> FOR MORE THAN FOUR YEARS NOW  TELLS ME THAT THERE ARE A  WHOLE
> BUNCH OF CROOKED POLITICIANS, JUDGES AND AND "SO CALLED" NEWS
> REPORTERS OUT THERE THAT SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES.
>  
>  
> IS BARACK H. OBAMA A NATIVE BORN AMERICAN?  IN THE VIDEO, IF IT
> IS GENUINE,  HE SAYS HE WAS BORN IN KENYA. 
>  
>  I'M FROM MISSOURI-
> YOU GOTTA SHOW ME
>  
>  
>  WENDELL KERR
>  TEA PARTY PATRIOT
>  
> P.S.  DID OBAMA "DEEM" HIMSELF TO BE ELIGIBLE TO SERVE AS
> AMERICA'S PRESIDENT? 
> FAR FETCHED?  HARRY AND NANCY AND THE LEFT WING DEMOCRATS TRIED
> IT ON THE "OBAMACARE" BILL BEFORE THEY BOUGHT  THE HOUSE AND THE
> SENATE.
>  WK   
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
>  OBAMA ADMITS NOT BEING BORN IN
> THE UNITED STATES
> 
>  
> 
> 
> *Who would believe Obama is actually on this video 
> admitting he was not born in Hawaii but was born in Kenya
> and is not even a citizen.  Obviously he made these
> statements because he did not know at that time that a
> president must be a "natural born" citizen.  OOPS*!
> **We may not be as crazy as the press would want us to be.)
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
>  *If you just watch the first 30 seconds your mouth will
> drop open.*
>  *Obama admits he is not a citizen*
> *Hmmm...maybe the "birthers' are on to something...*
> *THE AMAZING PART OF THIS TRAVESTY IS AMERICANS CONTINUE
> ALLOWING THEMSELVES TO BE RULED BY AN ILLEGAL ALIEN. *
> *Watch it before it’s pulled!*
> 
>  
> 
> *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded
> 
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded>*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no
> responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its
> members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash,
> ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If
> you do not, you will be here forever.

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Textbook in Springfield R12

[Jeremy D. Young]

Of course, Eric out does me before I even read the first one.  Well said.

I just want to re-iterate as Eric stated, that there is absolutely
nothing to be surprised about in the horror of text books.  They do not
teach children to think for themselves, nor to gather information from
primary sources.  They encourage the acceptance of knowledge from
"authorities" and conformity to "mainstream" thought.  Give your
children the tools of learning instead of indoctrinating them in the
answers that are blessed by the education bent of the government.

If education is within your passions, or if you have children at home,
please take the time to read this essay by Dorothy Sayers, delivered in
1947:

http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/07/2010 02:22 PM, Eric Vought wrote:
> 
> On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:46 PM,  wrote (Quoting ACT America
> email):
> 
>> • “Dwell” on atrocities committed by Christian Crusaders during
>> the Middle Ages while ignoring similar acts by Muslims.
>> • Provide sanitized definitions of “jihad” and ignore Muslim
>> practices involving sexism, slavery and persecution of non-Muslim groups.
>> • Devote significantly more coverage of Islamic beliefs, practices
>> and holy writings than they do on Christianity.
> 
> 
> These are all true: many textbooks are biased in exactly this fashion, I
> went to a private Christian school growing up and, where we used the
> state-approved textbook, teachers were able to present other sources and
> a more accurate view. What's more, though, the same type of biases exist
> in textbook treatments of Native American societies, of the Civil War,
> the Civil Rights movement, the Revolutionary War, etc., etc.
> 
> As has been mentioned before on this list, the main solution is greater
> emphasis on private and home schooling so that parents and communities
> have much greater choice in what is taught. The other solution is
> classical education based on sources, not textbooks. Students should be
> taught to read and critique multiple conflicting views of the same
> subjects, dissect the arguments and identify their biases.
> 
> One of the better techniques is a three-generation biography study. For
> most historical figures, early biographies tend to either saint them or
> vilify them. The next generation of biographers argues back and reverses
> the characterization, sainting the vilified and vilifying the sainted.
> Finally a third generation reexamines early sources and combines the
> first two generations into a portrait of the figure as a human being. It
> is necessary to explore all three layers to have a decent understanding
> of what is going on, not just of the figure but of the prejudices of
> society at and after their time.  This is what we should be teaching
> kids to do, with "real" books, paintings, music, plays, etc., rather
> than with sanitized textbooks.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric Vought
> "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make
> moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much
> responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction."
> 

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Re: [MoLiCo] Textbook in Springfield R12

[Jeremy D. Young]

You cannot win the fight to reform schools, or force them to teach other
children in the way you want them educated.  Encourage everyone to
remove their children from Government Schools and either Home school or
Private School them.

http://www.schoolandstate.org/home.htm
http://www.exodusmandate.org/
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm

Even if you succeed at removing blatantly offensive materials from the
Government School texts, they will still have at their core a
deteriorating over priced education.

Jeremy D. Young


On 10/07/2010 01:46 PM, jb...@mchsi.com wrote:
> As you can see, this text book is being used here in our Springfield R12
> schools to brain wash our students, please help us do something about this.
> 
>  
> 
> You must have JavaScript enabled to use this web site.
> 
> Start Over <http://coolcat.org/search~S14>Add to My Lists
> <http://coolcat.org/search~S14?/tWorld+History%3A+Patterns+of+Interaction+/tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction/1,1,1,B/?save_func=save_to_mylist&save=b2512463&returnurl=/search~S14?/tWorld+History%3A+Patterns+of+Interaction+/tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction/1%2C1%2C1%2CB/frameset&FF=tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction&1%2C1%2C>Export
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> Search <http://coolcat.org/search~S14/t>Search other Missouri libraries
> <http://coolcat.org/search~S14?/tWorld+History%3A+Patterns+of+Interaction+/tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction/1,1,1,B/innre...@http://mobius.umsystem.edu/search/z?6spri+b2512463&title=World+history+%3A&backlink=/search~S14?/tWorld+History%3A+Patterns+of+Interaction+/tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction/1%2C1%2C1%2CB/frameset&FF=tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction&1%2C1%2C>
> 
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> 
>  
> 
> Record:   Prev
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> 
> 
> Other Resources <http://coolcat.org/search/>
> 
> *Title*
> 
>   
> 
> *World history : patterns of interaction / Roger B. Beck ... [et al.]*
> 
> *Publisher*
> 
>   
> 
> Evanston, Ill. : McDougal Littell, c2009.
> 
>   
> 
> Permanent link for this record <http://coolcat.org/record=b2512463~S14>
> 
> book jacket
> <http://coolcat.org/search~S14?/tWorld+History%3A+Patterns+of+Interaction+/tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction/1%2C1%2C1%2CB/bibimage&FF=tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction&1%2C1%2C>
> 
> Rating <http://coolcat.org/screens~S14/ratings.html>
> mhtml:file://C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Owner\My%20Documents\ACT\History%20Book.mht!http://coolcat.org/screens/rate_no.gif
> <http://coolcat.org/patroninfo~S14/0/redirect=/search~S14?/tWorld+History%3A+Patterns+of+Interaction+/tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction/1%2C1%2C1%2CB/frameset&FF=tworld+history+patterns+of+interaction&1%2C1%2C>
> 
> *LOCATION *
> 
>   
> 
> *CALL # *
> 
>   
> 
> *STATUS *
> 
>  Library Center Young Adult Textbook
> <http://thelibrary.org/help/coolcat/locations/lib_tlc.html>
> 
>   
> 
>  WORLD HISTORY HONORS
> <http://coolcat.org/search~S14?/cWORLD+HISTORY+HONORS/cworld+history+honors/-3,-1,,B/browse>
>  
> 
>   
> 
>  IN LIBRARY USE
> 
>  
> 
> *Descript*
> 
>   
> 
> v. : col. ill., col. maps ; 28 cm.
> 
> *Subject*
> 
>   
> 
> World history -- Study and teaching (Secondary)
> <http://coolcat.org/search~S14?/dWorld+history+--+Study+and+teaching+%28Secondary%29/dworld+history+study+and+teaching+secondary/-3,-1,0,B/browse>
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Springfield Public Schools -- Textbooks.
> <http://coolcat.org/search~S14?/dSpringfield+Public+Schools+--+Textbooks./dspringfield+public+schools+textbooks/-3,-1,0,B/browse>
> 
> 
> *Audience*
> 
>   
> 
> Senior High.
> 
> *ISBN*
> 
>   
> 
> 054703475X
> 
>   
> 
> 9780547034751
> 
>  
> 
> home <http://www.actforamerica.org/>learn
> <http://www.actforamerica.org/index.

Re: [MoLiCo] Forwarded Email

[Jeremy D. Young]

Until I was engaged in a specific conversation which happened to be
replies to forwarded information, I filter all messages with "FW:" or
"FWD" into a special forward folder and don't read them.

So, if you want me to read something in a timely manner in the future,
make sure it's not a forward.  I prefer to read the thoughts and ideas
of local people about local issues.  (If I wanted to be on those mailing
lists, I would subscribe)

Jeremy D. Young

On 10/01/2010 04:51 PM, Eric Vought wrote:
> 
> On Oct 1, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> 
>> I have been told that I do not use reletive information while
>> discussion the Ground Zero Mosque or illegal immigration. This has to
>> do with illegal information. I hope that this is relevant as it
>> certainly seem so to me.
>>
> 
> 
> Actually, what you have been mostly told is that you do not check your
> facts to determine if something is actually true before forwarding.
> There are many scams out there which people write specifically to get
> folks worked up but are complete lies. Often these scams have links
> which take people to dangerous sites containing viruses or trojans or
> collect email or other personal information.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric Vought
> "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make
> moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much
> responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction."
> 

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Re: [MoLiCo] Muslim Terrorism Is the Biggest Threat We Face

[Jeremy D. Young]

My problem is that people are willing to forward a bunch of material
with questionable source information, but aren't willing to sit down and
have a discussion about what the actual consequences for this thing to
be feared are.

Then, they're not willing to discuss action steps and whether those
actions are justified.

My positions on this topic are the following:

1) Terrorists are small in number and therefore far less significant
than is being hyped
2) Terrorists are desperate
3) Suicide Terrorists are motivated primarily by Foreign Military
occupation of their land, or their holy land
4) The vast majority of Muslims are not Terrorists
5) The vast majority of Muslims living in the United States are peaceful
6) Not all Muslims want to live under a Muslim Government
7) Terrorism is still bad, and we should try to prevent it
8) Essential Liberty is NOT worth giving up to fight Terrorism
   a) PATRIOT Act needs to be repealed
   b) Americans should never torture anyone
   c) No war courts when there's no declaration of war
9) It doesn't matter which party is in the White House, their power
should be reduced
10) Terrorism can be defeated in part by not being afraid of it

My title is an assumption of my opponent's position.

Jeremy D. Young

On 09/30/2010 01:45 AM, Tom Martz wrote:
> I'm more concerned with education union terrorism an the intentional
> misteaching be perpetrated in our schools then I am of Muslims
> controlling the country.  The intentional misinformation given out as
> fact over the past decade has done more to harm this nation then any
> 9/11 event or any of those that might happen in the future.
> 
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Jeremy D. Young
> mailto:jeremydyo...@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
> 
> What do we do about it?
> 

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[MoLiCo] Muslim Terrorism Is the Biggest Threat We Face

[Jeremy D. Young]

What do we do about it?

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Re: [MoLiCo] Quran Layout

[Jeremy D. Young]

On 09/27/2010 02:31 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> I have been given the information that the first part of the Que'ran
> talks of peace. 

Well, the Quran is arranged in a very peculiar way.  Other than Sura 1,
it is ordered from longest sura (in number of verses) to shortest Sura.
 In my mind this seems like something done to confuse the issue.

> As Mohammad aged, the book changed its focus. 

Yes, basically there are two eras of "revelation".  The earlier period
was before he was run out of Mecca, and the latter is when he had
migrated to Medina and controlled it.

> That is why I do not believe that it is inspired. 

I have never for a moment argued that Islam is true.  Just because I
argue that all humans have the same rights, does not mean that all
humans are equally right, or will all get to heaven, or anything of the
sort.  I'm in no way a Relativist.  I have an extremely strong belief
that when the Government "decides which religion is true", everyone
loses.  Tyranny always follows when you mix religion and government.
Even in Israel, which is what the Old Testament was teaching us.  Even a
chosen people, led by God, will go astray, ask for a King, and oppress
their own people.

> The Bible does the same thing.
> Mohammad changed in that he told Muslims to pay attention to the last
> part of his writings which were that violence etc. should be used to
> convert the world. I listen to the New Testament, not the Old. If they
> do as he told them to do, then they use violence, etc. to convert
> Christians especially at this time.

Yes, the Quran has conflicting teachings.  At certain points it says
that Christians and Jews are fellow Peoples of the Book, and that they
are friendly to Islam.  Later, he produces revelation that allows them
to war upon them.

> Linda Herd

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Re: [MoLiCo] I did not advocate using war as a defense.

[Jeremy D. Young]

For others involved, when I say cursory examination of the Quran, my
steps were as follows:

Google for "Text of the Quran"

Click second link "Texts of Islam" -
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/index.htm

Next, Hypertext Qur'an

Next Sura 1 and 15 in Yusuf Ali English

I did not seek some site full of apologists for Islam, I did not seek
out the ACLU defense of Islam, I just used basic research and logic.

Further, I reference the forwarded email about the coins as evidence
that the sources of the information about Islam that Linda has been
forwarding are questionable at best.  Clearly if something as easily
completely refuted as the coins has been forwarded as valuable
information, then the rest of the body of information forwarded for us
to read has just as questionable a veracity.

But of course, please don't take my word for it.  Spend some time
researching and pondering these discussions and conclusions on your own.
 Don't believe anything that shows up in your Inbox.  Challenge it,
research it, disprove it if possible, and then, after it survives the
fire of logic, then you can take it as fact.

As a matter of personal preference, I would rather read 100 emails
containing the direct words and thoughts of members of this list than 1
email forwarded off from some other source.

Jeremy

On 09/26/2010 01:32 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Jeremy,
>  
> What ever you think.
>  
> Linda Herd
> 
> ------------
> *From:* Jeremy D. Young 
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Sun, September 26, 2010 1:17:55 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] I did not advocate using war as a defense.
> 
> Linda, here are some things that you simply have wrong:
> 
> On 09/26/2010 12:08 AM, Linda Herd wrote:
>> All Muslim beliefs are kill, lie, deceive to bring the rest of the world
>> to their beliefs.
> 
> No, the Quran is filled with many statements that mirror Judaism and
> Christianity:
> 
> Sura 1:
> 
> 1. In the name of God, Most Gracious,
> Most Merciful.
> 
> 2. Praise be to God,
> The Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds;
> 
> 3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
> 
> 4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
> 
> 5. Thee do we worship,
> And Thine aid we seek.
> 
> p. 15
> 
> 6. Show us the straight way,
> 
> 7. The way of those on whom
> Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
> Those whose (portion)
> Is not wrath,
> And who go not astray.
> 
> Sura 15 tells the story of Lot's followers, those that escaped Soddom
> and Gomorrah.
> 
> These are just the first two randomly chosen Suras.  So clearly, since I
> found no evidence of your statement in the first two Suras that I
> randomly chose, then your statement that "All Muslim beliefs are kill
> lie ..." is simply false.  Since you used the word "All", it is quite
> easy to disprove.
> 
> Next, you have claimed that "The muslim way of life is to follow the
> Que'ran in order to throw away all other faiths."  Once again, this is
> quite easy to disprove since a cursory reading of the Quran reveals that
> in Sura 15:
> 2. Again and again will those
> Who disbelieve, wish that they
> Had bowed (to God's Will)
> In Islam.
> 
> 3. Leave them alone, to enjoy
> (The good things of this life)
> And to please themselves:
> Let (false) Hope amuse them: soon
> Will knowledge (undeceive them).
> 
> So, their Quran tells them to leave them (infidels) in peace, that
> judgment in the end will make them wish they had known the truth.  They
> are simply confident that their text contains truth, and that all people
> will understand the truth eventually, even if it is not until after death.
> 
> So your assumption that All Muslims follow a belief of destruction of
> non Muslim countries, faiths, etc is easily disproved by the millions of
> Muslims that live peacefully in the United States, and by the fact that
> their texts do advise them (at least in some places) to leave
> non-Muslims in peace.
> 
> Now, understand clearly that I am not denying that there are SOME
> Muslims which hold a belief of constant Jihad.  I understand that there
> are some Muslims that do believe they should do exactly what you have
> described.  The failure in your logic is to believe that their Quran
> only tells them to do that, and that all Muslims follow that
> interpretation of the Quran.
> 
> There are over a billion Muslims in the world.  It is quite clear that
> only a very very small percentage of them actually believe in the
> forcible conversion of the non Muslim world.  Clearly there are a
> multitude of sects including Sunni and Shiite that disagree quite
> vigorously enough that they 

Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Fwd: Fw: It has begun - Refuse new coins!!!

[Jeremy D. Young]

It's on the edge of the coin for the 2007-2009 coins, and back on the
face for 2010.

Quit forwarding outright lies.

The only thing true about this email is that there are new $1 coins.

Can't you see that you can't trust 95% of the things some person on the
Internet forwarded you?  "Chain letters" are almost always false.

It took me 30 seconds to disprove this.

http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/$1coin/index.cfm?action=Washington

Jeremy D. Young

On 09/26/2010 01:11 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Another sign of the time.
> 

> Be ready to take a stand on this!!
> 
>   *It has begun...Refuse new coins!* 
>   
>  True Americans will refuse these 
>   
> 
> 
>  
> cid:1.3180652848@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com
> *R**EFUSE NEW COINS*
> *This simple action will make a strong statement. ** *
> *
> 
> **Please help do this.. _Refuse _to accept these when they
> are handed to you.** *
> * * *  **I received one from the Post Office as change and I
> asked for a dollar bill instead.** ** **
>  * * The lady just smiled and said 'way to go' , so she had
> read this e -mail. ** **
>  * * Please help out..our world is in enough trouble without
> this too!**
>  *
> * *
> *U.S.Government to Release New Dollar Coins** 
> 
> **
> You guessed it
> 'IN GOD WE TRUST'** ** **IS GONE!!!
> **If ever there was a reason to boycott something, THIS IS
> IT
> **
> DO NOT ACCEPT THE NEW DOLLAR COINS AS CHANGE
> **
> Together we can force them out of circulation..**
>  *
> *Please send to all on your mailing list!!!** 
> ** * 
> * *
> 
> *In GOD we trust!**
>   *
> 

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This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
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Re: [MoLiCo] I did not advocate using war as a defense.

[Jeremy D. Young]

Linda, here are some things that you simply have wrong:

On 09/26/2010 12:08 AM, Linda Herd wrote:
> All Muslim beliefs are kill, lie, deceive to bring the rest of the world
> to their beliefs.

No, the Quran is filled with many statements that mirror Judaism and
Christianity:

Sura 1:

1. In the name of God, Most Gracious,
Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to God,
The Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship,
And Thine aid we seek.

p. 15

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom
Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
Those whose (portion)
Is not wrath,
And who go not astray.

Sura 15 tells the story of Lot's followers, those that escaped Soddom
and Gomorrah.

These are just the first two randomly chosen Suras.  So clearly, since I
found no evidence of your statement in the first two Suras that I
randomly chose, then your statement that "All Muslim beliefs are kill
lie ..." is simply false.  Since you used the word "All", it is quite
easy to disprove.

Next, you have claimed that "The muslim way of life is to follow the
Que'ran in order to throw away all other faiths."  Once again, this is
quite easy to disprove since a cursory reading of the Quran reveals that
in Sura 15:
2. Again and again will those
Who disbelieve, wish that they
Had bowed (to God's Will)
In Islam.

3. Leave them alone, to enjoy
(The good things of this life)
And to please themselves:
Let (false) Hope amuse them: soon
Will knowledge (undeceive them).

So, their Quran tells them to leave them (infidels) in peace, that
judgment in the end will make them wish they had known the truth.  They
are simply confident that their text contains truth, and that all people
will understand the truth eventually, even if it is not until after death.

So your assumption that All Muslims follow a belief of destruction of
non Muslim countries, faiths, etc is easily disproved by the millions of
Muslims that live peacefully in the United States, and by the fact that
their texts do advise them (at least in some places) to leave
non-Muslims in peace.

Now, understand clearly that I am not denying that there are SOME
Muslims which hold a belief of constant Jihad.  I understand that there
are some Muslims that do believe they should do exactly what you have
described.  The failure in your logic is to believe that their Quran
only tells them to do that, and that all Muslims follow that
interpretation of the Quran.

There are over a billion Muslims in the world.  It is quite clear that
only a very very small percentage of them actually believe in the
forcible conversion of the non Muslim world.  Clearly there are a
multitude of sects including Sunni and Shiite that disagree quite
vigorously enough that they fight with each other over their beliefs.
It is simply incorrect to believe that All Muslims are of one mind on
any subject.

Since the basic assumptions that you have founded your statements upon
are clearly fallacious, I don't think it is necessary to continue to
analyze in great detail your proposed actions in response.

Please take a step back from the fear driven lists that you have
subscribed to, and consider that fear is an extremely dangerous emotion.
 Fear drives us to irrationally take drastic steps to prevent
kidnappings, even though most kidnappings in most areas of the nation
are performed by family members of the child.  Fear drives us to
completely overreact to the safety of Airplanes even though the
automobile is the most likely cause of accidental death in the United
States.  Fear drives racism, religious bigotry, and many other dangerous
behaviors.  Put away fear and eliminate it from your reasoning.  Then
maybe we can have a productive discussion.

Jeremy D. Young

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Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: The 'McCarthyism' epithet

[Jeremy D. Young]

> - Forwarded Message 
> *From:* Act for America 
> *To:* Linda Herd 
> *Sent:* Thu, September 23, 2010 1:17:35 PM
> *Subject:* The 'McCarthyism' epithet
> *Dear Linda,
> 
> Go to any playground in America and you’ll find children engaging in
> typical childish “conflict management.” They try to shout each other
> down. They call names, “you’re a poopy!” They put their hands over their
> ears and scream “I can’t hear you!”
> 
> And it’s exactly the kind of behavior we see regularly on display from
> the politically correct enablers of radical Islam.

So you're trying to say that I'm a "Politically correct enabler of
radical Islam"?

> Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson has unveiled the latest, and
> predictable, name-calling tactic intended to put us in our place—we’re
> all supposedly engaging in “McCarthyism.”

Let's see...

McCarthyism is a term used to describe the making of accusations of
disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence.
-- Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Because of what blow hard liars (Ahmajinadad in Iran) say about their
aims, we're supposed to believe that all Muslims that come to the United
States are here to disrupt our nation, install Shariah Law, and form a
one world Caliphate  (these are words from the emails you've sent us).

Yup, McCarthyism.  This however is not "name-calling", it's clearly
applying a term which fits.

> In a September 21^st column
> ,
> Robinson belittled Newt Gingrich for painting “Islam as the new Red
> Menace.” He dismissed any concern about a “stealthy insinuation of
> sharia into America’s legal system because no such thing is happening.”

The problem with the fight against Communism, wasn't that Communism
should be welcomed, or that it's a valid theory, it's that they were
destroying the rights, liberties, and freedoms of Americans without due
process.  All one had to be was quietly accused of being a communist
sympathizer and your career could be ruined.  Why would we want to go
down the same path with Islam?

> And the kicker: “The ‘stealth jihadis,’ I suppose, must be like the
> ‘known communists’ on the list in Sen. Joseph McCarthy's hand.”



> Robinson claims there is only one example of sharia here in America, the
> case of the New Jersey judge who ruled that a Muslim man committed no
> crime while beating and raping his wife, because he was acting
> consistent with his Islamic “practices.”
> 
> Robinson’s arrogance is exceeded only by his ignorance.*
> 
> *

> * Sharia has penetrated our financial system, in the form of
>   sharia-compliant financial instruments offered by the likes of
>   Citi Group and AIG. In an example of government accommodating
>   sharia, Minnesota offers sharia-compliant mortgages for Muslims.

If a customer will not do business in a certain fashion, and you as a
company see that profit can be made from extending a product to that
customer that meets their needs and desires, how is this "implementing
Sharia"?  Is the City, State, or Federal Government requiring businesses
to participate in this product offering?

> * Muslim prison employees, law enforcement officials, and even a
>   Disneyland employee, have sued for the right to wear the hijab as
>   part of their uniforms.

Did the Husbands of the employees sue, or the women that were wearing
the Hijab?  Are there issues with the hijab that prevent them from
completing their work duties?  Hijab can be as simple as head scarves
covering their hair.  Not all Muslim coverings are oppressive in nature
like the burka.

> * Muslim parents in New Jersey are demanding private prayer rooms
>   for their children in the PUBLIC elementary schools.

I suggest that the real solution is the elimination of the Federal and
State involvement in Education.  This is exactly the problem with
"PUBLIC" Education.  It has to accommodate all religions and behaviors
if it is to be fair.  Otherwise the government is forcing a certain set
of lifestyle choices on families.  Don't think I'm just talking about
the obscene or the absurd here, most of the Supreme Court 1st Amendment
School cases were heard about Christians.  In some areas of the country,
you are a minority if you want to teach your child about the Bible and
Christianity in their education.

> * According to a National Public Radio report in 2007
>   ,
>   as many as 100,000 Muslims are living in polygamous marriages here
>   in America.

Maybe it's not as right and just as you think it is to use guns to tell
people how they should live in their homes.  If you really think that
polygamy will lead to the downfall of our nation, take it up in the
pulpits and on the street corners, not in the courts and congress.
Convince the people of the error of their ways through pe

Re: [MoLiCo] Canada Free Press: The Sword & Shield to Stop the Islamization of America

[Jeremy D. Young]

agents to write their own search warrants
under the patriot act.  We allow blanket monitoring of phone calls and
financial transactions just on the vaguest of suspicions that it
involves a "terrorist".

We've already seen evidence that some are trying to use those powers
against us, the tea party.  Do you really want to grant anyone the
ability to deny rights to a group that they deem dangerous?  We're
already on the "danger to society" list because we support gun rights
and resisting the federal government.






I'm weary.  Stop sending us this.  I don't want to hear any more about
how you're going to steal away the rights of anyone because they're bad
people.

REPEAT

STOP SENDING ME THINGS ABOUT YOUR DESIRES TO STEAL PEOPLES RIGHTS.

Go back to resisting the Federal Government and restoring our
Constitution.  There are far more clear and present dangers in
Washington DC, and they're all Citizens.

In fact, stop forwarding stuff altogether.  If I wanted to be on those
lists I would sign up.  I'm on the MoLiCo list to discuss the issues
that face us and to consider each others thoughts on the matter, not be
spammed by dozens of other lists worth of junk.

I thought this list was primarily focused on matters specific to
Springfield and the Ozarks.  I'm pretty sure Springfield isn't a target
of the "muslim invasion".  If it is, they're already here over on
Division..  They're plotting to take over the downtown airport and drop
bombs on all of us like 5 o'clock charlie.

This is absurd.  I can't believe responsible adults think that we can
deny rights to 1.2 billion human beings based upon their religion or
nationality, or philosophical bent on government.  You're destroying my
hope that freedom and liberty could actually prevail.  That we could
rise up and throw off the oppression and tyranny of Washington DC.  In
reality, some of you just want to trade Liberal Oppressors for
Conservative Oppressors.

Bah.  Give me a reason not to leave all of these silly little lists.

Jeremy D. Young
Citizen

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] The political and religious violence of the Que'ran-how it relates to their belief system

[Jeremy D. Young]

I'm not angry at you, but I feel like we're having separate
conversations.  We bring up reasons that no one has the right to prevent
the Mosque from being built, no matter how valid your arguments may be,
and you either reiterate arguments, or bring up new arguments.  It
doesn't seem that you've addressed the basic underlying principle:

Who has the right to make a decision about what a private land owner
does with their property?

Jeremy

On 09/14/2010 09:34 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Eric,
>  
> I have read what you have written. I repeat myself because I am a
> teacher and have found one has to repeat until the others understand. If
> I thought I was wrong here, I would not return you emails arguing with
> you and Jeremy. I think you are innocent and just want to believe the
> best of what you perceive. Remember that this world is not the mirror of
> God's world. Quite the opposite.
>  
>  
> I did read that. They have been planning since way before 9/11. Why do
> they have mosques here? They hate us, but live here and build their
> political, religious mosques. They are undoubtedly our enemies. Yes I do
> know that the Old Testament has violence and I do not believe God
> approved or told them to do that. Jesus was the peace bringer. Mohammad
> became more violent at the later parts. It is 1 or two blocks from the
> twin towers. I have read the Bible more than a couple of times. I have
> listened to it on tape. Leave out the Old Testament and you will find
> that God really wanted us to show love. I didn't approve of rushing into
> the war because that was exactly what the Muslims wanted. With Obama
> finishing our money problem that started in previous administrations I
> cannot believe that he has fulfilled his promises. We are so in debt. We
> cannot just throw money at problems. We have to let go of the desire to
> control others. He has spent enough that even Hillary has even said this
> is not good for our National Security. How has that worked for us? 
>  
> Yes I know all about the Crusades. The Christians sinned a great deal
> when they took over others lands and killed them. Did you read where I
> said that Cortez line up the Mexicans, Indians, and asked them if they
> believed in Jesus Christ in a different language? Did you study the
> Spanish history and culture? Have you studied psychology? That is
> important when we study people. I study everyone because I can't help
> it. My religion says not to judge. Use discernment. If one sees
> something that is evil, one should distance oneself from that evil. The
> mosques are the muslim tradition including the Government beliefs. I
> want them to keep them in their country. Their religion is the state,
> and I have said that before. I will keep saying it until people can
> better perceive what they do. The Muslims lined up our people in their
> country and shot them in a line. I especially have read about the
> Crusaders. I studied Latin and French and Spanish. I think that was
> wrong but some think that making people Christians in that way was
> necessary. We in the U.S. are aware that we do not use violence to teach
> our children. Why would God? Yes, I have read about Tom's and their
> experiences with Muslims. We rented a house to one who said his parents
> were sending him money. He decorated his apartment nicely and she kept
> saying she was going to get a job. She, is his wife. They had to leave
> suddenly and left their furniture, etc. He crashed his computer and
> threw it in our trash. This was his job using the computer. But he made
> no money from it. I wanted to send it to the FBI. My other half was too
> afraid. I have known another one who was a crude business man and looked
> down on women. This by itself shows us their mind set is not what Jesus
> taught. The ones here have been instructed to pretend the way we want
> them to be. The Que'ran tells them to do that.
>  
> Have you seen where they have at least 35 terrorists training camps in
> America?  There will be more. This has been planned since the Cordoba
> was built in Spain and before that. Our war showed me a plenty. I have
> read  that the Muslims  are coming up through the Mexican border and
> Hezbollah is there according to people in Mexico. Yes, Obama was born in
> Kenya according to the president of Kenya. I also know that Muslims
> train their little boys to be Muslim, their children have nothing with
> which to compare beliefs. His father, a muslim had to teach him that
> with no other influences. They also see that they, the males are the
> rulers of their house hold where violence is used to keep it that way.
> Does that seem like what we should do? We are half of the race, the
> nurturing one. 
>  
>  
> Yes, my husband and I are doing something to help this country. I am on
> the computer learning all about this very subject. We are active
> politically. My husband is running for an important office to us
> educators. We love children. I have studied unconditio

[MoLiCo] Re: U.S. has no strategy for homegrown terror

[Jeremy D. Young]

I have a strategy for dealing with coordinated acts of violence:

Every citizen exercise their 2nd Amendment rights to own and carry a
weapon for self defense.  We should all take classes and keep up our aim
and coordination.

Quit trying to spread fear.  I'm done with this conversation unless you
actually attempt to address any of the principles that any of us have
presented you with.  More fear won't work.  More forwards won't work.
Why do you assume that because we disagree with you we just aren't well
read?

Islam has been around for approximately 1400 years.  The things you're
referring to haven't changed much in the last 1200 of those.

Our Federal Government's response to 9/11 has killed more people (even
if you only count United States troops), caused more damage to our
Liberties (Patriot Act, suspension of Habeas Corpus, FISA amendments,
etc), and harmed our economy (Department of Homeland Security, the TSA,
Iraq War, Afghanistan War, etc) more than all of the direct effects of
all the terrorist attacks on United States soil combined from 1968 -
present.

I want the Federal Government to react LESS, FAR LESS than it already
has.  I want the Federal Government to stop taking away my rights in
order to make me safe.  I want the Federal Government to give me BACK
the rights that I had supposedly secured under the Constitution.

Terrorism be damned.  I can't control that.  Supposedly I have control
over the Federal Government, and I'm far more afraid of it.

Good day to you.

Jeremy Young

On 09/14/2010 12:20 PM, Linda Herd wrote:
> Jeremy,
>  
> This is what I know and I would like to conver to you. You may be too
> good to understand their beliefs. They use violence in their culture and
> against all other cultures. Sometime is seems as if they are peaceful.
> Like building the mosque. Not a peaceful building for them for they
> follow Jihad. This is their political/religious belief. If they came
> directly into your home to kill you, would you defend yourself? This
> exactly what they are doing and planning.
>  
> Blessings,
>  
> Linda Herd
> 
> - Forwarded Message 
> *From:* Act for America 
> *To:* Linda Herd 
> *Sent:* Tue, September 14, 2010 11:48:51 AM
> *Subject:* U.S. has no strategy for homegrown terror
> 
> home learn
> act
> donate
> local
> chapters Contact
> Congress
> 
> ACT! for America 
> 
> 
> *Visit our /News/ page
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> */U.S. has “no strategy”
> for homegrown terror/*
> 
> 
> *Dear Linda,
> 
> The National Security Preparedness Group has released a new study (see
> story below, highlights added) showing the U.S. is unprepared to combat
> the threat of homegrown terrorism.
> 
> As one member of the group put it: “The United States has failed to
> fundamentally understand and prepare for these threats.”
> 
> Certainly there are a number of reasons for this, but from our
> perspective one stands out: the failure to link the ideology of Islamism
> (“radical Islam”) to acts of jihad.
> 
> Jihadists do what they do because they believe in the call to jihad.
> This is ideologically driven. The belief that they will “assimilate” or
> become part of our “melting pot” is wishful thinking. Thus, a national
> security strategy of “see no jihad, hear no jihad, speak no jihad” is
> doomed to fail.*
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Has 'No Strategy' to Confront Homegrown Terror, Security Group Warns
> Published September 10, 2010
> | FoxNews.com 
> 
> *The report:
> http://bipartisanpolicy.org/sites/default/files/Final%20NSPG%20Threat%20Assessment%20Report%20Sept%202010%20report%20w%20cover.pdf*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The government has failed to anticipate the danger from homegrown
> terrorists, _some of whom immigrated to the United States_, and now
> faces the most complex set of threats since the Sept. 11 attacks,

Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic "Victory" Mosque at Ground Zero

[Jeremy D. Young]

Always Learning,

Jeremy D. Young

--- On Mon, 9/13/10, Linda Herd  wrote:

From: Linda Herd 
Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic "Victory" Mosque at Ground Zero
To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 11:13 PM

Jeremy,
 
You are liberal and loving.

Funny.  I'm a Freedom loving Republican / libertarian.  Member of the Campaign 
for Liberty, the Republican Liberty Caucus, and was an officer of the 
Springfield Metro Republicans until it dissolved.  I work inside the Republican 
Party, when there are candidates that I mostly agree with.  

War mongering and changing the world "for the better" is not a Republican 
ideal.  Going to other nations and making them do things our way is a 
Progressive Wilsonian idea.  We call it Neoconservative now.  Endless war and 
military action all over the globe are incompatible with small government.  The 
state must be a behemoth to continue the type of military entanglement we have 
all over the world.
 Loving people also are killed when a religion's holy book dictates that all 
faithful to it go and and change the world by changing the world to their 
beliefs and are to do this by any means necessary, killing, deceiving, lying 
(spelling doesn't look correct) infiltrating, etc. anyone to the Muslim 
beliefs. 
I'm not in favor of being weak towards real threats by individuals.  I'm in 
favor of eliminating all gun laws and allowing all individuals to exercise 
their rights to defend their Life, Liberty, and Property against attackers of 
any type.
You are naive in this instance but you are a good man. 
You don't know much about me.  I could be a dirty scumbag.
I do not hate anyone, but I do hate the beliefs of this book, the Que'ran. 
Your hatred of the Quran is irrelevant.
They are following it as they did when they defeated the Spaniards and built 
their lavish mosque, Cordoba in Spain. 
Our nation will be strong or weak based upon its foundation.  If we hold to the 
Constitution, make it strong once again, and protect the rights of all 
individuals, then we will stand against any threat.
Their belief is one that is not separate from their beliefs. 
Huh?
They and the government is one.
Our Government is not "one with Islam".
It is not separate. What the government does is dictated by the Que'ran.
Our Federal Government is bounded by the Constitution.
If you do not suspect that the Muslims are using the illegal immigration throuh 
Obama to help them with their mission, you could be wrong.
The fight we must fight is one to end the welfare state.  Reduce the power of 
the Federal Government so that its decisions and foolishness cannot affect us.  

I do not hate you, I hate the evilness upon us at this time. 
This is my main point.  The Mexicans and the Muslims are not our biggest 
problem.  They are a distraction from the reality of the problem.  The real 
problem is a Federal Government that has no boundaries.  We must stand up 
against the Federal Government and its use of unconstitutional power whether we 
agree with the ends or not.  Encouraging the Federal Government to do anything 
"against Muslims" is just as heinous a violation of the Constitution as it 
would be if they outlawed Christians.  
Do you not see that Obama has hidden the secret of his birth certificate? 
Really? Honestly?  This is just another fearful distraction from the reality of 
our problems.  When it comes to money, government secrets, war, and torture, 
George W. Bush and Barack Obama have the same exact policies.
How about the place where he went to church which taught the same thing that 
the Que'ran, hate to non-muslims which I am and will not cange my name to a 
Muslim one like Obama did not change his name to a Christian name. 
Yes, but the church he went to was "Christian".  Are you ready to remove the 
rights of "Christians" who go to Black churches and have racist pastors?
I of course see what you are saying. Not all people are kind like you are. 
The law cannot determine a persons kindness or motives based upon anything but 
their actions.  Even their actions must be analyzed by a jury of their peers to 
determine guilt or innocence.
Keep fighting the fight, but I personally think you are on the wrong side. I 
will not stop arguing with good people who may have the wrong perception of a 
situation. This seems to me to be the way it is here.
I'm on your side if you love your country, and love the foundation that our 
forefathers created for us.  This is the greatest nation on earth, but it will 
disappear if we continue to allow the Federal Government to overstep the 
Constitution and our rights as individuals.  The welfare and warfare state is 
speeding us to economic collapse.  Like Rome, the barbarians at our gate won't 
defeat us unless we defeat ourselves from within.  Our victory is a victory of 
the individual

Re: [MoLiCo] FW: The Political Violence of the Bible and the Koran

[Jeremy D. Young]

No one has ever on this list attempted to equate Islam with any other religion 
in its validity or morality.  No one on this list has ever attempted to excuse 
the behavior of violent people whether they claimed to be acting on behalf of 
Christ, Moses, Yahweh, Mohammed, or Allah.  

The most important point that has been attempted on this list is that if there 
are rules for a GROUP of people, then great atrocities can be done by lumping 
people into the "evil" group.  That is all.  That is the danger, that is the 
error.

Ideas do have consequences, and I agree that some ideas are bad.  However, 
ideas have the MOST consequences when they are tied to the force of law.  When 
the State takes ahold of an idea and sponsors an idea to its fruition, then we 
have the biggest risk of error.  We must avoid the coupling of vast 
sociological and moral ideas to the State.  Protect individuals' rights to live 
how they choose, to pick from among the great (and not so great) ideas out 
there, and freedom and liberty with thrive.  The ideas will have to be proven 
out in the real world instead of being forced upon the whole of the nation. 

So yes, you should fight with equal fervor the attempt to squash societal evils 
through the power of the state (such as Smoking bans, Drug bans, Sex bans, etc 
etc etc) as you do the prevention of Sharia being integrated into the State.  

Liberty and Freedom for ALL.  

Always Learning,

Jeremy D. Young

--- On Mon, 9/13/10, Jerry Blevins  wrote:

From: Jerry Blevins 
Subject: [MoLiCo] FW: The Political Violence of the Bible and the Koran
To: "Missouri liberty coalition" 
Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 7:57 AM




 
 

Political Violence of the Bible and the Koran






I find with all the discussion here on this topic that this is a
good article and maybe of some help. 

   

Jerry 

   





From: Bill Warner
[mailto:b...@politicalislam.com] 

Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:04 PM

To: actspg...@mchsi.com

Subject: The Political Violence of the Bible and the Koran 





   

  

The Political Violence of the Bible and the Koran  

September 10, 2010 

One of the most frequently used arguments heard in the defense of Islam is
that the Bible is just as violent as the Koran. The logic goes like this. If the
Koran is no more violent than the Bible, then why should we worry about Islam?
This argument is that Islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism. This is
false, but this analogy is very popular, since it allows someone who knows
nothing about the actual doctrine of Islam to talk about it. “See, Islam is
like Christianity, Christians are just as violent as Muslims.” If this is true,
then you don’t have to learn anything about the actual Islamic doctrine.  

However, this is not a theological argument. It is a political one. This
argument is not about what goes on in a house of worship, but what goes on the
in the marketplace of ideas.  

Now, is the doctrine of Islam more violent than the Bible? There is only one
way to prove or disprove the comparison and that is to measure the differences
in violence in the Koran and the Bible.  

The first item is to define violence. The only violence that matters to
someone outside of either Islam or Christianity or Judaism is what they do to
the “other”, political violence. Cain killing Able is not political violence.
Political violence is not killing a lamb for a meal or making an animal
sacrifice. Note, however, a vegan or a PETA member considers both of these
actions to be violent, but it is not violence against them. 

The next item is to compare the doctrines both quantitatively and
qualitatively. The political violence of the Koran is called “fighting in
Allah’s cause”, or jihad.  

We must do more than measure the jihad in the Koran. Islam has three sacred
texts: Koran, Sira and Hadith, the Islamic Trilogy. The Sira is Mohammed’s
biography. The Hadith are his traditions—what he did and said. Sira and Hadith
form the Sunna, the perfect pattern of all Islamic behavior.  

The Koran is the smallest of the three books, the Trilogy. It is only 16% of
the Trilogy text . This means that the Sunna is 84% of the word content of
Islam’s sacred texts. This statistic alone has large implications. Most of the
Islamic doctrine is about Mohammed, not Allah. The Koran says 91 different times
that Mohammed is the perfect pattern of life. It is much more important to know
Mohammed than the Koran. This is very good news. It is easy to understand a
biography about a man. To know Islam, know Mohammed.  

It turns out that jihad occurs in large proportion in all three texts. Here
is a chart about the results: 

  



It is very significant that the Sira devotes 67% of its text
to jihad. Mohammed averaged an event of violence every 6 weeks for the last 9
years of his life. Jihad was what made Mohammed successful. Here is a chart of
the growth of Islam.  





  





  



Basically, when Mohammed was a preacher of re

Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic "Victory" Mosque at Ground Zero

[Jeremy D. Young]

Eric, keep fighting the good fight.  

Our nation is in great peril.  The ground swell of freedom loving Americans has 
been divided and distracted.  Millions of Americans were focused on the true 
enemy of our freedom and Liberty, The State.  Now they are distracted, focusing 
instead on hatred of a people group.  Focused on destroying people and nations 
across the globe.  Instead of focusing on our local governments, state 
governments, and finally federal governments, we're bickering and arguing over 
the ways in which we will destroy the individual freedoms of a group we choose 
to hate.  

It doesn't matter how you justify your hatred, if you ever apply your 
assumptions about a people group to an individual, you have damaged that 
person's liberty.  Every individual is a king.  A king of their own little 
world.  They have the right to do with their bodies, their property, and their 
minds what they wish.  Every other individual has the right to the same, as 
well as freedom from attack from other individuals.  

If you cannot stand for the Life, Liberty, and Property of the people that you 
hate, then you do not deserve your own.  In fact, I propose, along with Eric's 
statements that your efforts to deprive some individual of their Life, Liberty, 
or Property WITHOUT due process of law will inherently directly affect your 
ability to withstand the same attacks upon you.  

Wake up people!  Using the force of government against Muslims in any way shape 
or form opens the door directly for the athiest secular powers to squash 
Christianity and every other form of Religion.  

Replace the word Muslim in any statement you make with the word Jew, and take a 
deep look at what that statement really means.  Not the "evidence", but the 
actions you propose we take.  What actions do you propose?  What would be the 
consequences of those actions if levied against Jews or Christians?

Please, THINK.  Put away fear, put away terror, put away emotion.  Use the very 
powerful minds that God gave you.  

Now replace Muslim with "Tea Party".  

Always Learning,
Jeremy D. Young


--- On Wed, 9/8/10, Eric Vought  wrote:

> From: Eric Vought 
> Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic "Victory" Mosque at Ground 
> Zero
> To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 8:02 AM
> 
> On Sep 8, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> 
> > Thank you to Ideology of Islam for this post.
> > 
> > Philosopher Karl Popper had these wise words:
> > 
> > "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of
> tolerance.  If we
> > extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are
> intolerant, if we are not
> > prepared to defend a tolerant society against the
> onslaught of the
> > intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and
> tolerance with them. ...
> > We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance,
> the right not to
> > tolerate the intolerant."
> 
> 
> BS. We are not talking about stopping them from eating
> babies. We are talking about them building a mosque. If you
> can show me a Muslim who is raping women or eating babies,
> then "Off with his head!" But right now we have plenty of
> "Christians" doing that and we just elect them to Congress.
> 
> Instead of actually opposing evil, we are discussing
> opposition to a symbol people *say* represents evil. There
> are plenty of people who believe that the Cross and, say,
> the Catholic Church, is just such a symbol (and you are
> proving them right). Will you tolerate the atheist's right
> to "not tolerate the intolerant?"
> 
> Oppose the sin, not the sinner: It is easier, more
> effective, and actually legal.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric Vought
> "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our
> world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain
> given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction:
> Duty not Distinction."
> 
> --This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list
> assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional
> maturity of its members.  If you do not like what is
> being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or
> leave.  If you leave, learn how to do this for
> yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.
> 

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Oklahoma Calls Ban on Islamic Law a 'Preemptive Strike'

[Jeremy D. Young]

Maybe so.  It was intended as an extremely absurd example...

Jeremy D. Young

On 06/18/2010 07:48 PM, CathyM wrote:
> Jeremy said
> If two individuals choose to resolve their disputes by chopping off the heads 
> of
> chickens (assuming they own the chickens :P) and letting them run around on a
> big round board to see where they land (See South Park episode), who should 
> stop
> them from that?
> 
> My Repy
> Well, PeTA and HSUS would certainly say that you were being cruel to animals 
> and
> pass some sort of law to protest it and even stop it.
> Now, if it was a human being - no one would step in. :o)
> 
> CathyM
> Catren's Shar Pei
> Catren's Leather Show Accessories
> Kill "The Killing Fields" Bills of the HSUS
> www.americanssupportinganimalownership.com
> 
> 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2946 - Release Date: 06/18/10
> 13:35:00
> 

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
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RE: [MoLiCo] Oklahoma Calls Ban on Islamic Law a 'Preemptive Strike'

[Jeremy D. Young]

Eric is spot on here, and you haven't provided us with anything to discuss.

What do you exactly expect someone to study that you assume Eric has not 
studied?  

Freedom is freedom of individuals.  All individuals should be afforded the same 
freedom from state coercion.  

If two individuals choose to resolve their disputes by chopping off the heads 
of chickens (assuming they own the chickens :P) and letting them run around on 
a big round board to see where they land (See South Park episode), who should 
stop them from that?

People should be free to enter consensually into any agreement, and have 
disputes over said agreements resolved in the way that they desire.

The courts that the people established in our Federal, State, and Local 
Governments should only be necessary as a last resort after other methods of 
dispute resolution.


Always Learning,
Jeremy D. Young


--- On Fri, 6/18/10, Jerry Blevins  wrote:

> From: Jerry Blevins 
> Subject: RE: [MoLiCo] Oklahoma Calls Ban on Islamic Law a 'Preemptive Strike'
> To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, June 18, 2010, 5:58 AM
> Well Eric I think you need to go back
> and research your source of putting
> the Torah and Sharia Law into the same pot, isn't there,
> you need to do some
> more study.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Eric Vought
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 1:02 PM
> To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Oklahoma Calls Ban on Islamic Law a
> 'Preemptive
> Strike'
> 
> 
> On Jun 17, 2010, at 6:15 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote:
> 
> > Are you nuts!!
> 
> Perhaps, but I am also quite serious. Do you believe that
> the  
> Constitution only applies when you want it to? Do you
> believe that it  
> is meant to stop liberals from implementing bad ideas they
> think are  
> 'justified' by their ideology but that
> 'conservatives'  are not bound  
> by it and don't have terrible ideas they also think are
> 'justified'?
> 
> How can you possibly consider outlawing the use of Sharia,
> which is  
> itself based on Torah, and not think it will affect
> Christians and  
> Jews? Law is always a two-edged sword. Many atheists want
> strict  
> separation of church and state because they see religious
> doctrine as  
> 'creeping insidiously' into public life. By barring it
> completely,  
> religious nuts won't be able to force their irrational
> Christian  
> beliefs on free-thinking atheists. This the EXACT SAME
> twisted logic  
> 'Christians' are using here against Muslims and it leads to
> the same  
> place.
> 
> "But that's different!" is the battle cry of a liberal.
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> > [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Eric  
> > Vought
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:23 PM
> > To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Oklahoma Calls Ban on Islamic
> Law a 'Preemptive
> > Strike'
> >
> >
> > On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:12 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote
> (quoting ABC  
> > news):
> > [snip]
> >> Oklahoma Law May Not Be Constitutional
> >> Legal experts contacted by ABC News said they did
> not know of one
> >> instance of a judge in the U.S. invoking sharia in
> rendering a
> >> decision.
> >>
> >> "Cases of first impression are rare," said Jim
> Cohen, a professor at
> >> the Fordham University School of Law in New York
> City, adding, "I
> >> have never heard of a case" involving sharia.
> >> Cohen added that he questions whether the proposed
> amendment would
> >> pass constitutional muster.
> > [snip]
> >
> > Why would we oppose an Unconstitutional takeover of GM
> or our
> > Healthcare and SUPPORT an Unconstitutional
> strong-arming of the  
> > courts?
> >
> > The problem with this idea is that if it is right to
> pass this, then
> > it is right to pass a lot of other things. The
> Constitution is meant
> > to help save us from our own good intentions--- good
> intentions that
> > often have bad consequences.
> >
> > First of all, cases of first impression ARE rare and
> are also
> > therefore unusual. This means that, in order for a
> judge to reach that
> > far for insight, they need to have some reason to do
> so (and relying

Re: [MoLiCo] Missouri - Alert! Immediate Action Needed!!

[Jeremy D. Young]

I think that a government which runs out of time to legislate is a people saved 
from oppression. 

Don't let the politicians get in a hurry, or we'll end up with more work in 
fixing the problems they've created.

I think the Missouri Constitution is already too often amended, and we should 
always be slow to enter into that process again.  It would be a horrible waste 
to throw something on the ballot that is inferior or worse damaging to the 
freedom of the populace and require us to fight to defeat it.  It would be a 
true disservice to us all for a badly written amendment to actually pass and 
take effect. 

I'd say let the politicians donate their time to us, and serve in an extended 
session should they desire to continue to legislate us into our caves.

Always Learning,
Jeremy D. Young


--- On Thu, 5/6/10, Eric Vought  wrote:

> From: Eric Vought 
> Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Missouri - Alert! Immediate Action Needed!!
> To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 1:41 PM
> 
> On May 6, 2010, at 1:07 AM, Jeremy D. Young wrote:
> 
> >  suggest, based upon what you have written below,
> that everyone on this
> > list pressure the Missouri Senate to NOT allow a vote
> on this
> > legislation until its final form has been published
> online for 7 days.
> > Then, when we have all had a chance to read the actual
> text, we can
> > discuss and decide whether it is worthy of being
> supported.
> 
> 
> Thank you, Jeremy.
> 
> Unfortunately, with the end of the legislative session days
> away, waiting would effectively kill the bill, but, as you
> say, I would rather see no bill than bad bill.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Eric Vought
> "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our
> world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain
> given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction:
> Duty not Distinction."
> 
> --This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list
> assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional
> maturity of its members.  If you do not like what is
> being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or
> leave.  If you leave, learn how to do this for
> yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.
> 

-- 
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.

Re: [MoLiCo] Missouri - Alert! Immediate Action Needed!!

[Jeremy D. Young]

Cathy, I understand your passion, and I know that you are attempting to
fight for what is best for you, your business, and more.

I have not met you in person yet, and hopefully some day that will
change, but I have met with and spoken with Eric on many occasions.  One
thing that I have never seen Eric do is to speak firmly about a matter
that he is uninformed on.  If he had not been involved in the
legislative process for this very bill, he would not have weighed in on
the matter.

I suggest, based upon what you have written below, that everyone on this
list pressure the Missouri Senate to NOT allow a vote on this
legislation until its final form has been published online for 7 days.
Then, when we have all had a chance to read the actual text, we can
discuss and decide whether it is worthy of being supported.

We cannot allow our state legislature to pretend to be Congress and act
without transparency when crafting our laws.

In general, I echo the sentiment of Eric, Deb, and others that the lack
of a law is better than a bad law.  Do not allow our legislature to rush
into passing laws because they need to "Do Something".

We have seen hundreds, maybe thousands of times where the people
surrounding Washington DC have said "Trust Us", and we have been burned.
 Let us not enter into the same pattern with the people surrounding
Jefferson City.

Jeremy D. Young

On 05/05/2010 11:09 PM, CathyM wrote:
> At this point what is on the web is not even what is being voted on in
> the senate.  We just received word from MoFed that the bill has
> undergone a lot of rewrites and we were told that even by the time she
> would tell us what was being said in it, it might have changed.
> 
> At this point I have to trust Karen with MoFed.  She has taken care of
> animal interests in this state for over 20 years.  She says to support
> it, and I will.
> 
> Now, many of you will say this is putting my blind trust in another…but
> there are times that you have to do this because they are at the capital
> fighting the fight while we are here and not aware of what is truly
> happening.  The humane and GASP are completely gone from the writing
> that was put through in the House.  The fight is on to have dogs
> excluded from it so it only covers agriculture, which of course put me
> more than mad;  Because when you start excluding a species of animal to
> make HSUS feel better…NO and I am speechless.
> 
> So, the debate about what HJR86 reads like is mute at this time because
> we don’t have access to the current rewrite.
> 
>  
> 
> *CathyM*
> 
> *Catren's Shar Pei*
> 
> *Catren's Leather Show Accessories*
> 
> Kill "The Killing Fields" Bills of the HSUS
> 
> www.americanssupportinganimalownership.com
> <http://www.americanssupportinganimalownership.com>
> 
> * *
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom Martz
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:10 PM
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Missouri - Alert! Immediate Action Needed!!
> 
>  
> 
> at this point I must ask if you guys are talking about the same freaking
> bill I just read, Eric you make some valid points and jenny and cathy on
> a dog breeders perspective there are parts I agree with you on, but it
> appears that small farming interest are not in any means protected from
> government over regulation.  It appears that this biss is very
> haphazardly put together to serve the needs of many and it bites off
> more then should be allowed in one constitutional amendment.
> 
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:40 AM, D L Wells  <mailto:kcrecyc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> "as long as you continue to raise your animals in a safe and humane
> way." 
> 
> Who will regulate 'safe and humane'?  It will be the Nanny Government
> who tells you that your cows and chickens and all the rest require
> _drugs_ to keep them "safe" from disease.  Why?
> 
> Government representative:  "Well, it's a generally accepted scientific
> principle, that's why."
> 
> You will have no leg to stand on.
> 
> The less the Nanny Government has to say about our families, our homes
> and our animals, the freer we will be.
> 
> D
> 
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Jenny Thrasher
> mailto:jenny_thras...@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
> 
> Nevermind. I thought you guys were interested in protecting the
> rights of the little guy from the Nanny State, and all it would
> impose.  Do you want more Government, or less? Here they are,
> offering you a permanent addition to the Missouri State Constitution
> that says they w

Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning

[Jeremy D. Young]

Would you be more comfortable with:

"Yeah!  Nuke the Middle East! Blow up every last one of those blasted
muslims!  How dare they attack us!?"

There's only a billion of them...  If they were both militant and
competent, don't you think we'd all be under the sword already?  They
would have formed into armies and invaded all of the nations around them.

There are Muslim Militants.  I don't think they're competent enough to
be feared.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/john_mueller_on_1.html
http://www.downsizedc.org/etp/campaigns/77

There are Muslims who are not militants. Hundreds of Millions of them.
More non-militant Muslims in the world than there are Americans.

The enemies are those that would use fear to take away our freedom.
Fear of Economic Collapse, Fear of Terrorism, etc.  Terrorism doesn't
work if we refuse to be afraid.

This country was founded on the principles of Freedom.  Particularly
freedom of Religion.  Who are you to say that a particular religion is
unacceptable?

Individuals, especially citizens of the United States of America, still
have First, Fifth, and Sixth amendment rights.  If they commit a crime,
they should be judged for their actions, not their membership of some
group or label.

Any individual that opens fire and kills numerous people should be tried
by jury and, if found guilty, punished in the same manner whether
Christian, Muslim, White, Black, Arab, etc.

If you don't have rights as an individual, you risk losing all of your
rights when associated with an unfavorable group.

We all stand before God as the ultimate judge of our actions.  Let us
not attempt to assume his position of judgment over a billion people.

Jeremy D. Young

Jerry W Blevins wrote:
> I have followed this thread of thought in this mailing, now we know why
> we have the problems we have, the enemy is us.
> 
>  
> 
> Jerry
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *D L Wells
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:22 PM
> *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
> 
>  
> 
> I agree with Eric and Charity.  The mass-hysteria and hatred is
> overwhelming.
> 
> A crazy guy "lost it" and shot people, just like lots of crazy people
> do.  It doesn't discount the fact that it was a horrible, horrible
> thing, but hysteria breeds unrealistic conspiracy theories against a big
> mass of people.
> 
> Ask the Christians, ask the Jews, ask black people, ask brown people,
> ask the JCLS, ask the John Birch Society, ask gay people, ask Ron Paul
> supporters, ask women, ask anyone who has been put into a big boiling
> pot of oil for being the 'wrong' color, religion, sex, belief, etc.
> 
> I'm glad this guy will be brought to justice.  I pray for the souls of
> the dead, those they leave behind, and I continue to pray for my country.
> 
> Deb
> 
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Davis Family
> mailto:darlingdavisfam...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> There are extremists in every group there is.  I try not to judge all of
> them based on the actions of a few.
> 
> 
>   "Nearest in love to the Muslims wilt you find those who say, 'We
>   are Christians':
>   because these are men devoted to learning & men who have renounced
>   the world, they are not arrogant. (Quran, 5:82)"
> 
> May those who are non-Christians find that we hold to their expectations
> of us.  That we seek to understand their teachings on a personal level,
> and not base them on what the TV or other media claims that they
> believe.  I am sure that the Jews wished to be seen as individuals and
> not just worthy of death because of their faith.  As a member of The
> Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I am quite familiar with
> how blind hate with the backing of governments and media outlets can
> bring to pass the justification of trampling upon the rights of an
> entire group.  Remember, and I have said it many times, what you are
> willing to justify in doing to others, including preaching against
> faith, that you weaken your own liberty, and open the door for others to
> do the same to you based upon your faith, or some other ridiculous label.
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Fred B. Ellison  <mailto:fbelli...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> 
> Eric,
> 
>  
> 
> You need to educate yourself on the true beliefs of Islam. As a
> Christian, I do not believe that I can force anyone to obey God. This
> decision is a voluntary change of heart that leads to a change in
> outward actions. This is not the teaching of Islam which is based on the
>

Calling all Candidates

[Jeremy D. Young]

Springfield Metropolitan Republicans will be meeting Thursday June 4,
2009 at 7PM at the Library Center on South Campbell.

The topic will be The Battle for Springfield – The 137th, 138th, and
140th districts.

If you have ever even thought about running in a State Representative
race, and you live in one of these districts, please send me an email:
jeremydyoung at sbcglobal dot net.

Ron Day, Michael Goodart, and Jeremy Cady have already been invited to
speak.

Christopher Donegan, President of the Metro Republicans is organizing
this meeting, and we want to get as many people as possible to discuss
the possibilities of running for a state office.  Conservatives need to
step up and provide the means to fill these seats.

Thank you for your time, and I apologize to those of us who are members
of multiple mailing lists.

Jeremy D. Young
Treasurer, Springfield Metro Republicans
Greene County Coordinator, Campaign For Liberty

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility 
for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members.  If you do not like 
what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave.  If you leave, 
learn how to do this for yourself.  If you do not, you will be here forever.
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