[MoLiCo] Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
Eric, All along you have been talking about Muslims on the whole and all along we have been talking about terrorists. Is there really any argument? Linda Herd From: Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:41:47 PM Subject: Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning On Nov 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote: The massacre at Ft. Hood yesterday has stunned and grieved America. Everywhere people are asking questions. How could this happen on a secure military installation? What drove him to do it? Our heavy hearts go out to the families who have suffered this shocking loss. What is not shocking is the spin the “establishment media” is trying to put on this horrific massacre. For instance, Fox News this morning interviewed a “criminal profiler” who asserted definitively that this attack had nothing to do with religion, that the man was “troubled.” (In fairness to Fox News, they are at least raising the questions about jihadism as a motive.) etc. First of all, we have no idea why this man did what he allegedly did. After 16 years and even the opportunity to talk to the shooter, I still do not know precisely why the shooter at my college did what he did. He does not precisely know himself. What I would like people to consider, however (not necessarily accept, but consider) is that this may have to do with religion but not in the way this email suggested. Several years back, we had an incident on base in (I believe) Kuwait, where a Muslim US soldier attacked his own unit with a pair of hand grenades. He had been deeply disturbed by the training he was given to go into Iraq and shoot ragheads, that it was perfectly OK to torture stinking ragheads, and that things would not be OK until the last Muslim was dead. He sought a conscience discharge because of the pervasive religious discrimination in his unit. This was a man who volunteered to serve his s country, the Land of the Free, and was persecuted for his religion. His request for discharge (or transfer) was denied and the persecution continued until he snapped. We do not know that anything like this happened with Major Hassan, but it is certainly as possible as any other motive. Is it right for Protestant American soldiers to persecute Muslim American soldiers? How do we preach to the Gentiles if we are too busy trying to shoot them all? He handed out Korans the day of the attack? And? Is this not legal in this country? If I hand out Christian literature on a street corner, am I a terrorist? Maybe he did this every morning for the past ten years! If you want to know why Muslims (in America or otherwise) hate us, look no further than this email from ACT America. In my mind, it is not Christian behavior to hate members of any religion (or of no religion). How clear does the Bible make it that not one of us is righteous? Attempt to lead by example and convert people through compassion. If someone physically assaults us, then certainly we respond, but there is no need for hate or persecution before or after. The continued frothing at the mouth about all and any Muslims being demonically possessed makes me sick. According to my religion, I believe them to be mistaken, but that does not mean that they are evil or more prone to evil than we are. Certainly we can all think of examples of evil people who have labelled themselves as Christian, such as, for instance, the Nazis (a Gnostic Christian cult), or the Catholics who slaughtered the Albagensians (my ancestors), the horrendously violent Knights Templar, or the warfare/terrorism in England, Ireland, and Scotland between different sects of Christianity, etc... We need to get a grip and realize that evil does not come with consumer-friendly labels. None of us have a monopoly on truth, Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
many times during this long winded conversation the jump has been made that All Muslims are terrorist, we have simply pointed out the statement is NOT true. Now are all terrorist Muslims that part might have some validity but not the other way around. tom On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:54 PM, Linda Herd linda.h...@sbcglobal.netwrote: Eric, All along you have been talking about Muslims on the whole and all along we have been talking about terrorists. Is there really any argument? Linda Herd -- *From:* Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Sat, November 7, 2009 6:41:47 PM *Subject:* Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning On Nov 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote: The massacre at Ft. Hood yesterday has stunned and grieved America. Everywhere people are asking questions. How could this happen on a secure military installation? What drove him to do it? Our heavy hearts go out to the families who have suffered this shocking loss. What is not shocking is the spin the “establishment media” is trying to put on this horrific massacre. For instance, Fox News this morning interviewed a “criminal profiler” who asserted definitively that this attack had nothing to do with religion, that the man was “troubled.” (In fairness to Fox News, they are at least raising the questions about jihadism as a motive.) etc. First of all, we have no idea why this man did what he allegedly did. After 16 years and even the opportunity to talk to the shooter, I still do not know precisely why the shooter at my college did what he did. He does not precisely know himself. What I would like people to consider, however (not necessarily accept, but consider) is that this may have to do with religion but not in the way this email suggested. Several years back, we had an incident on base in (I believe) Kuwait, where a Muslim US soldier attacked his own unit with a pair of hand grenades. He had been deeply disturbed by the training he was given to go into Iraq and shoot ragheads, that it was perfectly OK to torture stinking ragheads, and that things would not be OK until the last Muslim was dead. He sought a conscience discharge because of the pervasive religious discrimination in his unit. This was a man who volunteered to serve his s country, the Land of the Free, and was persecuted for his religion. His request for discharge (or transfer) was denied and the persecution continued until he snapped. We do not know that anything like this happened with Major Hassan, but it is certainly as possible as any other motive. Is it right for Protestant American soldiers to persecute Muslim American soldiers? How do we preach to the Gentiles if we are too busy trying to shoot them all? He handed out Korans the day of the attack? And? Is this not legal in this country? If I hand out Christian literature on a street corner, am I a terrorist? Maybe he did this every morning for the past ten years! If you want to know why Muslims (in America or otherwise) hate us, look no further than this email from ACT America. In my mind, it is not Christian behavior to hate members of any religion (or of no religion). How clear does the Bible make it that not one of us is righteous? Attempt to lead by example and convert people through compassion. If someone physically assaults us, then certainly we respond, but there is no need for hate or persecution before or after. The continued frothing at the mouth about all and any Muslims being demonically possessed makes me sick. According to my religion, I believe them to be mistaken, but that does not mean that they are evil or more prone to evil than we are. Certainly we can all think of examples of evil people who have labelled themselves as Christian, such as, for instance, the Nazis (a Gnostic Christian cult), or the Catholics who slaughtered the Albagensians (my ancestors), the horrendously violent Knights Templar, or the warfare/terrorism in England, Ireland, and Scotland between different sects of Christianity, etc... We need to get a grip and realize that evil does not come with consumer-friendly labels. None of us have a monopoly on truth, Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner
Re: [MoLiCo] Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote (Quoting Ron Silverman): Many of them make the following assumptions: That politically-active Muslims are acting out of political motivations rather than Islamic religious motivations; that they cherry-pick verses out of the Quran to justify their actions, but Islam is not what motivates them; The problem is that all the statistical evidence we have is that it IS political motivations driving them. It is not an assumption but a theory supported by much evidence. People may believe in Islam before we invade their countries, but they do not necessarily blow themselves up until we stir the kettle. But even if that were not true, you cannot outlaw an *idea*. Even if it were provably true that every single Muslim and his grandmother in all of history were a stinking rotten scum, you accomplish nothing by fighting Islam. You fight the abuses actually committed--- not the idea--- and you end up right either way. *If* you were right and Islam is not a religion but a global anti-American, anti-Christian conspiracy, you still end up in the same place, but you avoid violating the very principles you claim to believe in and which you claim they violate. I don't think you can really argue against the hard evidence. But even if you could win that argument, you would still face the harder question of whether we should be evil to fight evil. That isn't a question about what they do or do not do or what they do or do not believe but rather a question about US and what we want to be, and that is really much more important. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
Islam is not about a forced submission to the will of God, but a voluntary submission to the will of God. As in, THY will be done, not MY will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. Surrendering one's will to God is not a concept unique to Islam. It is, in fact, the primary concept of all religions world wide. It's to point out that God knows what is going on, and has the biggest picture in front of Him- we don't. When we surrender our will to other humans, we forget about God, and begin to follow human directives. The problems begin when the human interpretation of God's directives, regardless of religion, involve hurting others in the name of any religion. There are fanatics everywhere, in every culture and every religion. Are they the norm? No. Are they dangerous? You bet. Any time a small group is allowed to come to the forefront and speak for everyone else, to attempt to force everyone else to capitulate to their demands, there is a huge problem. It is always important to remember that the small group is not necessarily the approved representative of the whole. Jenny Thrasher Pict O'the Highlands Scottish Terriers www.pictothehighlands.com From: Linda Herd linda.h...@sbcglobal.net To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 5:02:56 PM Subject: Fw: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning I think that is very correct, Fred. Linda H - Forwarded Message From: Fred B. Ellison fbelli...@yahoo.com To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 12:27:58 PM Subject: Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning Eric, You need to educate yourself on the true beliefs of Islam. As a Christian, I do not believe that I can force anyone to obey God. This decision is a voluntary change of heart that leads to a change in outward actions. This is not the teaching of Islam which is based on the forced submission to the will of Allah (God). This attitude is completely contrary to the concept of liberty and self-responsibility. The non-Muslim is considered to be no better than a slave to be exploited for the benefit of Muslims. Do your research and you will understand how very dangerous all Muslims actually are. Fred Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. - John F. Kennedy Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. - Barry Goldwater As an American, I am not so shocked that Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize without any accomplishments to his name, but rather that America gave him the White House based on the same credentials. - Newt Gingrich CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. The information contained herein is for the sole use of the intended recipient and any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance on this message or any attachment by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this email and deleting it from your computer. --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com wrote: From: Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 5:41 PM On Nov 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote: The massacre at Ft. Hood yesterday has stunned and grieved America. Everywhere people are asking questions. How could this happen on a secure military installation? What drove him to do it? Our heavy hearts go out to the families who have suffered this shocking loss. What is not shocking is the spin the “establishment media” is trying to put on this horrific massacre. For instance, Fox News this morning interviewed a “criminal profiler” who asserted definitively that this attack had nothing to do with religion, that the man was “troubled.” (In fairness to Fox News, they are at least raising the questions about jihadism as a motive.) etc. First of all, we have no idea why this man did what he allegedly did. After 16 years and even the opportunity to talk to the shooter, I still do not know precisely why the shooter at my college did what he did. He does not precisely know himself. What I would like people to consider
Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Tom Martz wrote: Not being one who is afraid to call a spade a spade, I'll wade into this conversation. At this current juncture in our history the only individuals who have been attacked militarily has been via Muslim extremist. I'm not aware of any Jew, or you name the religious sect taking up arms Um... the attack on the USS Liberty by the Israelis? The Oklahoma City Bombing? The dozen or so major civilian shooting sprees of the last twenty years? Are those Muslim terrorists? And certainly we have been at war with non-Muslims in the past, even suicide terrorists of other cultures (e.g. Kamikaze). Active suicide terrorist groups in the last three decades include the Hindu-Marxist Tamil Tigers (the most active such group of the 20th century), the Catholic IRA, the Secular-Leninist Turk separatists, Liberal-Catholic Basque separatists, and yes, the Muslim Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda (which we trained and equipped). The Zealots were such a feared group of Jewish suicide terrorists in the past that they have become a household word today. The Christian Knights Templar were not suicide terrorists per se, but they systematically attacked Muslim civilians in order to trigger a war between Sal'hadin and the Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Catholic Spanish Inquisition was legendary for its torture and murder of civilians. Evil is fairly well distributed. Up through the mid-90's (when Pape's data ends), no modern suicide terrorists came from countries not occupied by foreign troops. Not one. His data shows no correlation whatsoever between suicide terrorism and Islam or even Muslim extremists. None. But it does prove that foreign occupation of a culture by people from a different religion/culture has a VERY HIGH correlation with suicide terrorism. In the case of Hezbollah, it was Jewish occupiers in a Muslim region. With Al-Qaeda, Christian occupiers in the Muslim Middle-East, With the Tamil Tigers, Muslims occupying Hindu territory. With the Zealots, pantheistic Romans occupying Jewish Judea and Palestine. Pretty easy to understand, really. We have troops ALL OVER the Middle East, now in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Qatar, and Israel (have I missed any?). We are largely white Christians of European stock while they are largely Muslims of Arabic or Turkik stock. The Vietnamese immediately distrusted us because we looked just like the French who had been ruining their lives for decades. The Middle Easterners have been at odds with European Christians for centuries and now we are doing our part to improve relations still further by setting up little America in the middle of their most sacred regions. Hmm... that might tick 'em off a bit, no? Not to mention that we are the ones who ruined Afghanistan in the first place: training, arming, and funding Al Qaeda and the Taliban, encouraging the opium trade and goading the Soviets to invade. They have plenty of REASON to hate us. We are too powerful to oppose directly, and they believe that they have no other way to stop us from destroying their homes, their religion, and their culture (not to mention killing lots of them). Why is that hard to understand? I'll still shoot one if they try to mess with my family, but I certainly can understand why they believe they have to fight us--- and am in favor of removing those reasons. and killing thousands of our people unless you include Congress. Are most Muslims extreme ? probably not however when a religious nut murders an abortion doctor the religious come out in droves to condemn the senseless act of violence being perpetrated on another individual. This does NOT occur in the Muslim community which gives me the sense that they endorse what has transpired. Silence by its own omission is the act of complacency to an action. If one does not speak up for government waste then they endorse that action through their own inaction. It is much the same within the Muslim community. Through there silence they have told me what occurred in Ft Hood was something they condone, and YES this is one American who is ready to say we've had enough get your ASSES back where you belong until such time as you can play within the confines of our American sandbox. I saw a political cartoon once with a Congressman saying I just want all these foreigners to go back where they came from, and a native American in the foreground saying, Great! I'll help you pack. Pot, meet kettle. Perhaps what we need to do is smear this guy with pig oil and incinerate him and let every Muslim know this will occur to any other senseless attack on any American. What do we do with McVeigh and other white Christian extremists? Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes
Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_1HAvaWnqg On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Davis Family darlingdavisfam...@gmail.comwrote: I have scene several muslim groups speak out about it, but it doesn't make the news, because THAT is not the result desired. Tom, you know all about propaganda and it being used to conform the masses to accept behavior or have more of a willingness to allow trampling of rights. I assure you, if you went to Palestine, you would hear of stories of crazy Jews attacking them. If you went to Israel you hear about crazy Palestinians... If you go to a black neighborhood you hear about those white cops... And many nations have wondered why WE silently stand by and let our CHRISTIAN nation kill so many people all over the world, and occupy their nations and appoint their options for who they vote for. We are not as silent as we appear... but the propaganda machines would let them continue to believe that. So, they will hate us. And if they wanted us gone already, then we would be, Christianity is the smallest religion out of the major 3. Islam practically fills the earth, they or the Chinese for that matter could just walk on in with swords and beat us with the sheer numbers. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Tom Martz t.ma...@gmail.com wrote: Not being one who is afraid to call a spade a spade, I'll wade into this conversation. At this current juncture in our history the only individuals who have been attacked militarily has been via Muslim extremist. I'm not aware of any Jew, or you name the religious sect taking up arms and killing thousands of our people unless you include Congress. Are most Muslims extreme ? probably not however when a religious nut murders an abortion doctor the religious come out in droves to condemn the senseless act of violence being perpetrated on another individual. This does NOT occur in the Muslim community which gives me the sense that they endorse what has transpired. Silence by its own omission is the act of complacency to an action. If one does not speak up for government waste then they endorse that action through their own inaction. It is much the same within the Muslim community. Through there silence they have told me what occurred in Ft Hood was something they condone, and YES this is one American who is ready to say we've had enough get your ASSES back where you belong until such time as you can play within the confines of our American sandbox. Perhaps what we need to do is smear this guy with pig oil and incinerate him and let every Muslim know this will occur to any other senseless attack on any American. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Jeremy D. Young jeremydyo...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Would you be more comfortable with: Yeah! Nuke the Middle East! Blow up every last one of those blasted muslims! How dare they attack us!? There's only a billion of them... If they were both militant and competent, don't you think we'd all be under the sword already? They would have formed into armies and invaded all of the nations around them. There are Muslim Militants. I don't think they're competent enough to be feared. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/john_mueller_on_1.html http://www.downsizedc.org/etp/campaigns/77 There are Muslims who are not militants. Hundreds of Millions of them. More non-militant Muslims in the world than there are Americans. The enemies are those that would use fear to take away our freedom. Fear of Economic Collapse, Fear of Terrorism, etc. Terrorism doesn't work if we refuse to be afraid. This country was founded on the principles of Freedom. Particularly freedom of Religion. Who are you to say that a particular religion is unacceptable? Individuals, especially citizens of the United States of America, still have First, Fifth, and Sixth amendment rights. If they commit a crime, they should be judged for their actions, not their membership of some group or label. Any individual that opens fire and kills numerous people should be tried by jury and, if found guilty, punished in the same manner whether Christian, Muslim, White, Black, Arab, etc. If you don't have rights as an individual, you risk losing all of your rights when associated with an unfavorable group. We all stand before God as the ultimate judge of our actions. Let us not attempt to assume his position of judgment over a billion people. Jeremy D. Young Jerry W Blevins wrote: I have followed this thread of thought in this mailing, now we know why we have the problems we have, the enemy is us. Jerry *From:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *D L Wells *Sent:* Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:22 PM *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning I agree with Eric and Charity
Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
Eric, You need to educate yourself on the true beliefs of Islam. As a Christian, I do not believe that I can force anyone to obey God. This decision is a voluntary change of heart that leads to a change in outward actions. This is not the teaching of Islam which is based on the forced submission to the will of Allah (God). This attitude is completely contrary to the concept of liberty and self-responsibility. The non-Muslim is considered to be no better than a slave to be exploited for the benefit of Muslims. Do your research and you will understand how very dangerous all Muslims actually are. Fred Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. - John F. Kennedy Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. - Barry Goldwater As an American, I am not so shocked that Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize without any accomplishments to his name, but rather that America gave him the White House based on the same credentials. - Newt Gingrich CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. The information contained herein is for the sole use of the intended recipient and any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance on this message or any attachment by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this email and deleting it from your computer. --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com wrote: From: Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 5:41 PM On Nov 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote: The massacre at Ft. Hood yesterday has stunned and grieved America. Everywhere people are asking questions. How could this happen on a secure military installation? What drove him to do it? Our heavy hearts go out to the families who have suffered this shocking loss. What is not shocking is the spin the “establishment media” is trying to put on this horrific massacre. For instance, Fox News this morning interviewed a “criminal profiler” who asserted definitively that this attack had nothing to do with religion, that the man was “troubled.” (In fairness to Fox News, they are at least raising the questions about jihadism as a motive.) etc. First of all, we have no idea why this man did what he allegedly did. After 16 years and even the opportunity to talk to the shooter, I still do not know precisely why the shooter at my college did what he did. He does not precisely know himself. What I would like people to consider, however (not necessarily accept, but consider) is that this may have to do with religion but not in the way this email suggested. Several years back, we had an incident on base in (I believe) Kuwait, where a Muslim US soldier attacked his own unit with a pair of hand grenades. He had been deeply disturbed by the training he was given to go into Iraq and shoot ragheads, that it was perfectly OK to torture stinking ragheads, and that things would not be OK until the last Muslim was dead. He sought a conscience discharge because of the pervasive religious discrimination in his unit. This was a man who volunteered to serve his s country, the Land of the Free, and was persecuted for his religion. His request for discharge (or transfer) was denied and the persecution continued until he snapped. We do not know that anything like this happened with Major Hassan, but it is certainly as possible as any other motive. Is it right for Protestant American soldiers to persecute Muslim American soldiers? How do we preach to the Gentiles if we are too busy trying to shoot them all? He handed out Korans the day of the attack? And? Is this not legal in this country? If I hand out Christian literature on a street corner, am I a terrorist? Maybe he did this every morning for the past ten years! If you want to know why Muslims (in America or otherwise) hate us, look no further than this email from ACT America. In my mind, it is not Christian behavior to hate members of any religion (or of no religion). How clear does the Bible make it that not one of us is righteous? Attempt to lead by example and convert people
Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
There are extremists in every group there is. I try not to judge all of them based on the actions of a few. Nearest in love to the Muslims wilt you find those who say, 'We are Christians': because these are men devoted to learning men who have renounced the world, they are not arrogant. (Quran, 5:82)May those who are non-Christians find that we hold to their expectations of us. That we seek to understand their teachings on a personal level, and not base them on what the TV or other media claims that they believe. I am sure that the Jews wished to be seen as individuals and not just worthy of death because of their faith. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I am quite familiar with how blind hate with the backing of governments and media outlets can bring to pass the justification of trampling upon the rights of an entire group. Remember, and I have said it many times, what you are willing to justify in doing to others, including preaching against faith, that you weaken your own liberty, and open the door for others to do the same to you based upon your faith, or some other ridiculous label. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Fred B. Ellison fbelli...@yahoo.comwrote: Eric, You need to educate yourself on the true beliefs of Islam. As a Christian, I do not believe that I can force anyone to obey God. This decision is a voluntary change of heart that leads to a change in outward actions. This is not the teaching of Islam which is based on the forced submission to the will of Allah (God). This attitude is completely contrary to the concept of liberty and self-responsibility. The non-Muslim is considered to be no better than a slave to be exploited for the benefit of Muslims. Do your research and you will understand how very dangerous all Muslims actually are. Fred Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. - John F. Kennedy Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. - Barry Goldwater As an American, I am not so shocked that Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize without any accomplishments to his name, but rather that America gave him the White House based on the same credentials. - Newt Gingrich CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. The information contained herein is for the sole use of the intended recipient and any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance on this message or any attachment by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this email and deleting it from your computer. --- On *Sat, 11/7/09, Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com* wrote: From: Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 5:41 PM On Nov 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote: The massacre at Ft. Hood yesterday has stunned and grieved America. Everywhere people are asking questions. How could this happen on a secure military installation? What drove him to do it? Our heavy hearts go out to the families who have suffered this shocking loss. What is not shocking is the spin the “establishment media” is trying to put on this horrific massacre. For instance, Fox News this morning interviewed a “criminal profiler” who asserted definitively that this attack had nothing to do with religion, that the man was “troubled.” (In fairness to Fox News, they are at least raising the questions about jihadism as a motive.) etc. First of all, we have no idea why this man did what he allegedly did. After 16 years and even the opportunity to talk to the shooter, I still do not know precisely why the shooter at my college did what he did. He does not precisely know himself. What I would like people to consider, however (not necessarily accept, but consider) is that this may have to do with religion but not in the way this email suggested. Several years back, we had an incident on base in (I believe) Kuwait, where a Muslim US soldier attacked his own unit with a pair of hand grenades. He had been deeply disturbed by the training he was given to go into Iraq and shoot ragheads, that it was perfectly OK to torture stinking
Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
I agree with Eric and Charity. The mass-hysteria and hatred is overwhelming. A crazy guy lost it and shot people, just like lots of crazy people do. It doesn't discount the fact that it was a horrible, horrible thing, but hysteria breeds unrealistic conspiracy theories against a big mass of people. Ask the Christians, ask the Jews, ask black people, ask brown people, ask the JCLS, ask the John Birch Society, ask gay people, ask Ron Paul supporters, ask women, ask anyone who has been put into a big boiling pot of oil for being the 'wrong' color, religion, sex, belief, etc. I'm glad this guy will be brought to justice. I pray for the souls of the dead, those they leave behind, and I continue to pray for my country. Deb On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Davis Family darlingdavisfam...@gmail.comwrote: There are extremists in every group there is. I try not to judge all of them based on the actions of a few. Nearest in love to the Muslims wilt you find those who say, 'We are Christians': because these are men devoted to learning men who have renounced the world, they are not arrogant. (Quran, 5:82)May those who are non-Christians find that we hold to their expectations of us. That we seek to understand their teachings on a personal level, and not base them on what the TV or other media claims that they believe. I am sure that the Jews wished to be seen as individuals and not just worthy of death because of their faith. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I am quite familiar with how blind hate with the backing of governments and media outlets can bring to pass the justification of trampling upon the rights of an entire group. Remember, and I have said it many times, what you are willing to justify in doing to others, including preaching against faith, that you weaken your own liberty, and open the door for others to do the same to you based upon your faith, or some other ridiculous label. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Fred B. Ellison fbelli...@yahoo.comwrote: Eric, You need to educate yourself on the true beliefs of Islam. As a Christian, I do not believe that I can force anyone to obey God. This decision is a voluntary change of heart that leads to a change in outward actions. This is not the teaching of Islam which is based on the forced submission to the will of Allah (God). This attitude is completely contrary to the concept of liberty and self-responsibility. The non-Muslim is considered to be no better than a slave to be exploited for the benefit of Muslims. Do your research and you will understand how very dangerous all Muslims actually are. Fred Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. - John F. Kennedy Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. - Barry Goldwater As an American, I am not so shocked that Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize without any accomplishments to his name, but rather that America gave him the White House based on the same credentials. - Newt Gingrich CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. The information contained herein is for the sole use of the intended recipient and any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance on this message or any attachment by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this email and deleting it from your computer. --- On *Sat, 11/7/09, Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com* wrote: From: Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 5:41 PM On Nov 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote: The massacre at Ft. Hood yesterday has stunned and grieved America. Everywhere people are asking questions. How could this happen on a secure military installation? What drove him to do it? Our heavy hearts go out to the families who have suffered this shocking loss. What is not shocking is the spin the “establishment media” is trying to put on this horrific massacre. For instance, Fox News this morning interviewed a “criminal profiler” who asserted definitively that this attack had nothing to do with religion, that the man
Re: Shooter handed out Korans yesterday morning
Thanks for those thoughts Eric. I actually did read about the guy being harassed by others in the military because of his ancestry. I could not find that information when I went back to get the story. It was on CNN and then vanished. The voice of hate has seemed to grown louder. I don't watch TV, but get some news, but wow.. people are really growing the hatred of a religion, and not looking at people on an individual basis, and that is just wrong, AND dangerous. This kind of hate and fear is used to trample over people's rights, and the hate is used as justification. And I agree, this is not the behavior of true Christians. We are to abhor sin, but love the sinner, and that is everyone. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Eric Vought evou...@gmail.com wrote: On Nov 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote: The massacre at Ft. Hood yesterday has stunned and grieved America. Everywhere people are asking questions. How could this happen on a secure military installation? What drove him to do it? Our heavy hearts go out to the families who have suffered this shocking loss. What is not shocking is the spin the “establishment media” is trying to put on this horrific massacre. For instance, Fox News this morning interviewed a “criminal profiler” who asserted definitively that this attack had nothing to do with religion, that the man was “troubled.” (In fairness to Fox News, they are at least raising the questions about jihadism as a motive.) etc. First of all, we have no idea why this man did what he allegedly did. After 16 years and even the opportunity to talk to the shooter, I still do not know precisely why the shooter at my college did what he did. He does not precisely know himself. What I would like people to consider, however (not necessarily accept, but consider) is that this may have to do with religion but not in the way this email suggested. Several years back, we had an incident on base in (I believe) Kuwait, where a Muslim US soldier attacked his own unit with a pair of hand grenades. He had been deeply disturbed by the training he was given to go into Iraq and shoot ragheads, that it was perfectly OK to torture stinking ragheads, and that things would not be OK until the last Muslim was dead. He sought a conscience discharge because of the pervasive religious discrimination in his unit. This was a man who volunteered to serve his s country, the Land of the Free, and was persecuted for his religion. His request for discharge (or transfer) was denied and the persecution continued until he snapped. We do not know that anything like this happened with Major Hassan, but it is certainly as possible as any other motive. Is it right for Protestant American soldiers to persecute Muslim American soldiers? How do we preach to the Gentiles if we are too busy trying to shoot them all? He handed out Korans the day of the attack? And? Is this not legal in this country? If I hand out Christian literature on a street corner, am I a terrorist? Maybe he did this every morning for the past ten years! If you want to know why Muslims (in America or otherwise) hate us, look no further than this email from ACT America. In my mind, it is not Christian behavior to hate members of any religion (or of no religion). How clear does the Bible make it that not one of us is righteous? Attempt to lead by example and convert people through compassion. If someone physically assaults us, then certainly we respond, but there is no need for hate or persecution before or after. The continued frothing at the mouth about all and any Muslims being demonically possessed makes me sick. According to my religion, I believe them to be mistaken, but that does not mean that they are evil or more prone to evil than we are. Certainly we can all think of examples of evil people who have labelled themselves as Christian, such as, for instance, the Nazis (a Gnostic Christian cult), or the Catholics who slaughtered the Albagensians (my ancestors), the horrendously violent Knights Templar, or the warfare/terrorism in England, Ireland, and Scotland between different sects of Christianity, etc... We need to get a grip and realize that evil does not come with consumer-friendly labels. None of us have a monopoly on truth, Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- Visit http://www.fragrantsmoke.com Learn the 28 Principles of Liberty http://www.theprinciplesofliberty.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn
