RE: [OT]: Open Source ... was Re: Advocacy idea ...
OK, you probably don't want it to be another mailing list
then. But a web
bbs that allows you to post replies to code.
kind of ... I would like to see someplace to post _working_ code (complete
or snippets) with an explanation of what you are trying to accomplish, and
with any issues/special circumstances that you had to take into account. You
would post to one of several categories (Database, XML, OOP, etc.). Maybe
have the functionality for reviewers to alter the code and have the site
produce a diff automagically from the changes. You could maybe see the code
with changes that were made by a select number of people (maybe people who
have highly moderated suggestions/code?).
Possibly have in each section for links to resources that can be moderated
for usefulness in each of these categories (this may already exist -- if it
does, please let me know where! :))
Yet such code reviews are
extremely time
consuming so I could see people donating time once a month to
do it but not
much more realistically (based on the fickle *real* workload
we all have).
This is very true, and I also think there would be the whole "critical mass"
issue (people won't use it until it's big / it won't be big until people use
it). I think there would certainly need to be clear guidelines as well (TBD)
Anyway, however you want to go about it, good luck.
I think that I will try to come up with a proposal over the weekend (or at
least by the end of the week - Saturday is my b-day :)). Perhaps at that
time a consensus of whether this is worthwhile could be achieved?
Usually people go to the archive when they have a problem not
pre-emptively. And I think that although the code someone has
posted for
comments on the main mailing list may no longer be there, the
comments
about that code remain and usually with snippets of the code
in question.
{snip}
I don't think this list lacks for discussion on code that
people might post
(although lately its this advocacy stuff). So although it is
better to have
a separate code repository, I am not sure that people would
flock to it
enough to make it better than posting the code to the list
(as a URL) and
discussing it here.
This could even go beyond coding (I am brainstorming here ... unencumbered
by the thought process). Perhaps create an area for project plans, hardware
setup, etc. (of course relating to mod_perl). I find that my biggest issue
is usually not coding problems per se, but "what is the best way to go about
doing this?" or "did I miss something in the code that I will regret
later?". These are my biggest itches. As I mentioned previously, I have no
one to bounce things off of. I am in Ohio which is the land of MS/ASP/VB. I
have been able to convince my employers that mod_Perl is good technology
(mostly based upon speed). I don't want to prove the decision wrong by some
silly mistake (I've been OK so far).
Most of the resources that I can find on the net have to do with "I can't
get this to work" and not "Is this good?". I realize that most of this
knowledge comes with experience, but this could be a place to bounce ideas
around and perhaps jumpstart that experience. Your earlier comment about
this being what open source is all about may be very accurate here. Am I
describing SourceForge? CPAN? ML's? something else?
Also please let me know if this is trailing too far off topic. Is there a
more appropriate place to discuss this?
Best Regards,
Dave Homsher
Webmaster,
MACtac IT
[OT]: Open Source ... was Re: Advocacy idea ...
You're describing what open source is about. People do this all the time here on this mailing list and others. If you have some mod_perl code you are trying to produce, put it up and write an email asking for comments. You may not get many people reading (most people are quite busy at any given time) but you will probably get a few. Just don't post your code to the list itself. It's rude to bloat the mails on the list. Provide a hyperlink to your annotated code. At 09:54 AM 12/14/00 -0500, Homsher, Dave V. wrote: Hi all, With all of the advocacy talk on the ML right now I've been mulling around the idea of having a "peer review" forum where one could post code that you are currently working on w/an explanation of what you are trying to accomplish and have the community review/give suggestions warnings, etc. or how to improve code (maybe /. style?). I know from my experience that having others review your code is always helpful (well almost always :) ). In my work situation right now I am the only person that knows anything about mod_perl and we really only have one other person who knows any Perl at all (and this was v. 4). So I know that some stupid things are slipping through ... I have been hesitant to suggest anything on the list as I've only been on it for 2 months or so, but if this would be beneficial, I would be willing to help as time permits ... I don't think that there is anything like this around (for Perl or Java), although I could be wrong ... Does the idea have merit? If so, how to proceed? Dave Homsher Webmaster, MACtac IT "The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of tyrants and patriots alike. ... Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." - Thomas Jefferson __ Gunther Birznieks ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) eXtropia - The Web Technology Company http://www.extropia.com/
RE: [OT]: Open Source ... was Re: Advocacy idea ...
Just don't post your code to the list itself. It's rude to bloat the mails on the list. Provide a hyperlink to your annotated code. True, but what happens after you get your answer? You take the code down and move on. It would be nice to have a place to post the code where it can be organized and filed away with comments for future reference. Also the idea would be more "code review" than "I have a problem". From my perspective, I would like to see how others are solving problems and how successful they were through a given solution. Maybe even have a moderating system so that good code/comments float to the top ??? There are all kinds of bits and pieces of floating around the net and in print: CPAN, O'Reilly books, Mailing list, etc. I can read perldocs to see how a module is used, I can check out O'Reilly books for theory and simple examples, and I can ask a mailing list for help when I get stuck, but sometimes you don't know what module will help, you've read the O'Reilly books and the examples are too simple/don't apply, and you aren't even sure what question to ask the mailing list, what do you do? I bludgeon together some code and hope that is good enough. I don't really have anyone to review it and say "This is stupid". I realize that you will probably have people do the cut and paste thing, but if it's good code, is that really a problem - especially if there are comments, etc. and an explanation of how the code works/is supposed to work from the author??? I see this as both a code resource and a review forum ... Thoughts??? Dave Homsher Webmaster, MACtac IT
Re: [OT]: Open Source ... was Re: Advocacy idea ...
"Homsher, Dave V." wrote: Just don't post your code to the list itself. It's rude to bloat the mails on the list. Provide a hyperlink to your annotated code. True, but what happens after you get your answer? You take the code down and move on. It would be nice to have a place to post the code where it can be organized and filed away with comments for future reference. Also the idea would be more "code review" than "I have a problem". From my perspective, I would like to see how others are solving problems and how successful they were through a given solution. Maybe even have a moderating system so that good code/comments float to the top ??? There are all kinds of bits and pieces of floating around the net and in print: CPAN, O'Reilly books, Mailing list, etc. I can read perldocs to see how a module is used, I can check out O'Reilly books for theory and simple examples, and I can ask a mailing list for help when I get stuck, but sometimes you don't know what module will help, you've read the O'Reilly books and the examples are too simple/don't apply, and you aren't even sure what question to ask the mailing list, what do you do? I bludgeon together some code and hope that is good enough. I don't really have anyone to review it and say "This is stupid". I realize that you will probably have people do the cut and paste thing, but if it's good code, is that really a problem - especially if there are comments, etc. and an explanation of how the code works/is supposed to work from the author??? I see this as both a code resource and a review forum ... Thoughts??? Dave Homsher Webmaster, MACtac IT freshmeat had an announcement of an app that might help, well at least it says it trys! http://freshmeat.net/projects/blackarts/ dunno if this is the right solution but if iread you right your looking towards something like it! a snippet of what it does Blackarts is a tool for creating web based documentation repositories from interesting information that shows up in email. It was designed to solve the problem whereby a company or association gathers important documentation in email conversations that never gets recorded in a way that is easily accessible later. Blackarts creates mail gateways to multiple document repositories that have tables of contents, sections and section crosslinking.
RE: [OT]: Open Source ... was Re: Advocacy idea ...
Just don't post your code to the list itself. It's rude to bloat the mails on the list. Provide a hyperlink to your annotated code. True, but what happens after you get your answer? You take the code down and move on. It would be nice to have a place to post the code where it can be organized and filed away with comments for future reference. As I've replied earlier in a personal emil to Dave, the idea might be nice. So you might want to go ahead and give it a try -- if it works out, cool, if not at least you know that you have tried. Personally I've found that it's much easier to find a few coders that you believe that their style is good and learn from their code. In my early days I've learned a great deal of idiomatic Perl coding from Randal's columns: http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/WebTechniques/ http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/UnixReview/ "Effective Perl Programming" by Joseph N. Hall (http://www.effectiveperl.com) was the second source I've learned the most from. But you are probably talking about mod_perl specific idioms, and that's why I think it might be a good idea, *if* people will actually find it interesting/challenging enough to review each others code techniques. So as I said go for it and you will find out. _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: [OT]: Open Source ... was Re: Advocacy idea ...
"Stas" == Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stas Personally I've found that it's much easier to find a few coders that you Stas believe that their style is good and learn from their code. In my early Stas days I've learned a great deal of idiomatic Perl coding from Randal's Stas columns: (blush) Stas http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/WebTechniques/ Stas http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/UnixReview/ And don't forget the newest member of the family: http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/ Yeah, 2.5 column ideas a month. Please, if you have ideas, let me know! Get your name in print in a 100K+ circulation magazine! -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
RE: [OT]: Open Source ... was Re: Advocacy idea ...
OK, you probably don't want it to be another mailing list then. But a web bbs that allows you to post replies to code. So you still post your issue here and entice people to go to the URL with your code (On the root post of a WebBBS). And then allow people who happen to have the time when you posted your issue to read and have a short discussion. A mailing list doesn't work as well for this activity because its a pain to drop in and out of mailing lists. Yet such code reviews are extremely time consuming so I could see people donating time once a month to do it but not much more realistically (based on the fickle *real* workload we all have). Anyway, however you want to go about it, good luck. I don't see much wrong with the way it is done now. And the argument that the code eventually gets taken down is a good one. Yet if you actually plan to put the code open source, then the link to the code will eventually become real and will have been affected by the discussion which will hopefully be reflected in the code comments (eg # I'm using XML because Matt S. pointed out that my own format was evil.) :) I will concede that it could be better, but it seems like the workflow will be harder than it is now for a benefit (an archive of people talking at each other about their code). I am not sure people will go back and read the archives really. Most people read archives when they have a problem (and then it is on the mod_perl archive -- and do you really need every line of code from the original problem still posted?). I think a new programmer will find greater benefit from reading established Apache modules to find out how to do things and the mod_perl guide. Reading archived discussions is quite time consuming because it hasn't been digested into an article or guide. Usually people go to the archive when they have a problem not pre-emptively. And I think that although the code someone has posted for comments on the main mailing list may no longer be there, the comments about that code remain and usually with snippets of the code in question. Anyway, clearly your mileage will vary from mine though. And others may be interested. However, I lately I am drawn to the idea that when there is a huge problem with the way something is done now, it makes an idea to solve that huge problem get embraced quite quickly, but if there's only an incremental fix to something then it will be harder to get people to actually change their habits. I don't think this list lacks for discussion on code that people might post (although lately its this advocacy stuff). So although it is better to have a separate code repository, I am not sure that people would flock to it enough to make it better than posting the code to the list (as a URL) and discussing it here. At 11:53 AM 12/14/00 -0500, Homsher, Dave V. wrote: Just don't post your code to the list itself. It's rude to bloat the mails on the list. Provide a hyperlink to your annotated code. True, but what happens after you get your answer? You take the code down and move on. It would be nice to have a place to post the code where it can be organized and filed away with comments for future reference. Also the idea would be more "code review" than "I have a problem". From my perspective, I would like to see how others are solving problems and how successful they were through a given solution. Maybe even have a moderating system so that good code/comments float to the top ??? There are all kinds of bits and pieces of floating around the net and in print: CPAN, O'Reilly books, Mailing list, etc. I can read perldocs to see how a module is used, I can check out O'Reilly books for theory and simple examples, and I can ask a mailing list for help when I get stuck, but sometimes you don't know what module will help, you've read the O'Reilly books and the examples are too simple/don't apply, and you aren't even sure what question to ask the mailing list, what do you do? I bludgeon together some code and hope that is good enough. I don't really have anyone to review it and say "This is stupid". I realize that you will probably have people do the cut and paste thing, but if it's good code, is that really a problem - especially if there are comments, etc. and an explanation of how the code works/is supposed to work from the author??? I see this as both a code resource and a review forum ... Thoughts??? Dave Homsher Webmaster, MACtac IT __ Gunther Birznieks ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) eXtropia - The Web Technology Company http://www.extropia.com/
