be nice reminder [Was: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection]
While we're on the topic of advocacy, I'd like to briefly mention the RTFM reflex. Most of the people working on these projects are *working*. They have no time to coddle stupid questions from newbies who didn't *bother* to RTFM. I do understand that, and I sympathize. But if we're talking advocacy, I must point out that as a newbie, my biggest problem was finding out where to look to *find* the manual. Also, when I was trying to get this system working ~now~, (the "out-of-the-box" problem we keep seeing), it was frequently important that I get answers quickly, and though I hated to bother the list with mundanities, it was a lot faster to ask (and get a response amid the RTFM's) than to read through a dozen documents to find where the information I needed, especially when it was ditributed among three or four of them and I needed to understand the relationships before it made any sense. I know improving the quality and interrelatedness of our documentation is an ongoing effort, but though I have most often seen a very helpful and friendly attitude towards (yes, even stupid) questions, I remind us all that one "RTFM and quit wasting our time, jerk" response will sour someone on the ENTIRE language, and that the someone might always have been the next Bill Gates looking for a tool to sponsor Personally, I know that I'm less qualified for the in-depth questions, so I tend to *look* for the misplaced and ignorant requests. Explaining how to access an entry in a hash isn't worth a lot of people's time -- but I see those people occasionally spend the time to point that out. While we're at it, let's always take the extra few seconds to be *nice* about it, and at least make a token effort while we mention that there's a better forum for that at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kudos to those of you who have consistently shown that patience, and raspberries to those who haven't. :op (thpbpfhtbphff!!!) And again, finally, many thanks to all of you who have nudged me each time a little closer towards competency. Yopu folks are another reason I like Perl. ;o] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: be nice reminder [Was: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection]
But if we're talking advocacy, I must point out that as a newbie, my biggest problem was finding out where to look to *find* the manual. Also, when I was trying to get this system working ~now~, (the "out-of-the-box" problem we keep seeing), it was frequently important that I get answers quickly, and though I hated to bother the list with mundanities, it was a lot faster to ask (and get a response amid the RTFM's) than to read through a dozen documents to find where the information I needed, especially when it was ditributed among three or four of them and I needed to understand the relationships before it made any sense. We all find ourselves in the "I'm in a hurry" situation and before taking any time to look for an answer we sometimes blow our load and post a message. I've done that in the past and sometimes catch myself doing that on other lists (though I'm getting better :). The problem is that by time you post it, you've already spent considerable time describing your problem. Then there's the delay while it trickles out to the list and I usually spend my time searching the list archives. Roughly 80% of the time I will have found the answer within an hour of my post (and usually well before someone replies). What does this tell me? Regardless of how much of a rush we're in, it will still take some time before our question makes it to the list and by that time, if we use the resources made available to us, we'll have found the answer. Personally, I find the list archives to be *valuable* for most, if not all of the problems/questions I've had with mod_perl. I agree with Dave who said that if you are tackling new technology you should prepare to spend some time. No one I know who is trying out mod_perl is going to have it up and running with full-on-developed scripts in a day :-) Even with my 3 years experience using and configuring mod_perl it still takes me a good day to properly setup and configure out development and production boxes here. Jim -- Jim Serio - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Producer, World of Coasters - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: be nice reminder [Was: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection]
Agreed, one and all. I only meant to stress being polite when you ask people not to post off-topic without notice -- unless they *KEEP* doing it There are some who require rudeness, sadly enough. I just meant that if you're going to bother to respond, let the person know what they did wrong, try to point them in the right direction (with a sentence or two, not a soliloquay, =o) and ask them to put [OT] in if the next time they consider it important enough. If 50 polite "look here for answers to that, please" messages in response to a post don't make the point, then they *deserve* a little rudeness. A little. *after* having been given a clue. Remember, generic questions will politely punish the ask-er simply by the volume of polite response. =o) I didn't mean to sound like I was ranting! lol! --- Dave Rolsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Paul wrote: But if we're talking advocacy, I must point out that as a newbie, my biggest problem was finding out where to look to *find* the manual. Also, when I was trying to get this system working ~now~, (the "out-of-the-box" problem we keep seeing), it was frequently important that I get answers quickly, and though I hated to bother the list with mundanities, it was a lot faster to ask (and get a response amid the RTFM's) than to read through a dozen documents to find where the information I needed, especially when it was ditributed among three or four of them and I needed to understand the relationships before it made any sense. Well, your pressing schedule is your problem. If you're going to tackle a new technology you have to allow learning time. I'm all for people politely providing pointers as to what documentation a newbie should read (like "go to the guide from perl.apache.org and read the section on configuring"). But expecting people to then sit down and walk you through the commands necessary to get the install done is just not going to happen. If you need that sort of support, pay someone to do it for you. I highly doubt that this is any different in the Java world. Certainly, better packaging/smarter installers can help with this too. and friendly attitude towards (yes, even stupid) questions, I remind us all that one "RTFM and quit wasting our time, jerk" response will sour someone on the ENTIRE language, and that the someone might always have been the next Bill Gates looking for a tool to sponsor There's nothing wrong with RTFM and a pointers towards the correct books/sites/files, as long as its polite. Explaining how to access an entry in a hash isn't worth a lot of people's time -- but I see those people occasionally spend the time to point that out. While we're at it, let's always take the extra few seconds to be *nice* about it, and at least make a token effort while we mention that there's a better forum for that at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think answering entirely off-topic questions instead of just politely asking the questioner to go elsewhere sets a bad precendent along the lines of "those mod_perl folks know Perl really well so I'll ask my regex question there." Keep in mind that while we're all for advocacy of mod_perl, eventually a person's support needs may reach a point where they really need to start thinking about paying for it. -dave /*== www.urth.org We await the New Sun ==*/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
