subject:"\[Mono\-list\] I give up"

RE: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support

2004-04-13 Thread Dan

Here, Here Greg.  Well said!  The only thing I would add is that when you
say It's about freedom, simple as that., I would more specifically say
It's about freedom of choice.

Regards,
Dan Maltes

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregory Junker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:59 AM
To: Mono List
Subject: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support

This is a rather short-sighted viewpoint, I have to say. If you were talking
about today, Monday April 12, 2004, then ya, sure, if the election were
today then Windows.NET would win hands down. That's not what this project
is about however. 

I strongly disagree with the statement if Mono PPC doesn't work right now,
today, then you should just give it up. If Mono had the same paid
development staff of the same size that Microsoft has dedicated to .NET just
on Windows, then you might have a legitimate gripe. 

I hear a lot of sour grapes here, a lot of glass is half empty. I predict
that two or three years from now you'll look back to this time and wonder
why you were worried at all. And if you need Mono to run reliably on MacOSX
before then, well, like you said...you need to run Windows (or,
increasingly, with each passing day, Mono/Linux). 

I rarely boot back into Windows unless I have to (gaming), and then, as soon
as I am done, it's back to Linux. All of my desktops have both Fedora and
Win2K on them, and they spend 99% of their uptime in Linux.
Not because I am a religious fanatic; I didn't have a single Linux machine
in my business until about 18 months ago, and I only recently eliminated the
last Windows server from the shop. I started in .NET and C# in the second
beta version of VS.NET, and liked it a lot, but did not care to run it on
Windows servers, so until I found out about this project, and the level of
its maturity, I more or less ignored .NET completely. Now that I can run it
in a commercial-license-free environment, I am far more interested in
employing it in our projects. 

You mention beating MS at their own game; MS themselves realize the reality
of the evolutionary path: the actual OS longer will matter in a matter of a
few short years. Businesses care about what it will take to get the work
done, not how it's done, and since the movement is inexorably moving towards
software as a service, and since .NET is a frontrunning technology towards
that end, the fact that it runs on Linux (and only gets more complete and
stable with each CVS commit) means that no longer will IT departments have
to care about what latest-and- greatest gee-whiz-bang-gizmo Microsoft puts
out and expects us to buy:
it simply won't matter. 

In other words, in a Mono-enabled .NET world, Microsoft themselves
ironically become irrelevant. That's why Mono/Linux is important in and of
itself: weaning from the dependency on a single-source vendor for what
admittedly is a desirable technology. 

And best of all, you can still use VS.NET if you wish to develop apps for
Mono/Linux (and other platforms when ready). And even that dependence is
being addressed. 

So for me, and, I would imagine, for a significant portion of those
interested in developing applications under Mono (and for Novell itself, I
believe), it's not a religious fervor that drives this, not a hatred for
Microsoft. It's just the opportunity NOT to have to rely on the whimsy of
Redmond to take care of business, as it were. It's about freedom, simple
as that. 

For me anyway...

Greg


 On x86 hardware, I prefer windows xp/2003. Sorry, I love *nix,
 butlinux doesn't do much for me on x86, especially when x86/
 windowsoffers 100% compatibility and killer dev tools.
 Frankly, there is noreal reason to host asp.net apps under
 apache, when my XP box doesbetter after locking it down. No
 religion here folks, just reality.
 
 I appreciate the new features and the roadmap, but if all mono
 has tooffer is x86/linux stability, then mono has only
 succeeded in doing isproviding a 'free' implementation of
 the .net runtime that runs on thesame commodity hardware that
 a fully supported and commercial versionruns on.
 
 the same hardware. Believeit or not, most windows shops
 adopting .NET don't care about OSlicensing costs or security. 

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Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support

2004-04-12 Thread Gregory Junker

This is a rather short-sighted viewpoint, I have to say. If you were
talking about today, Monday April 12, 2004, then ya, sure, if the
election were today then Windows.NET would win hands down. That's not
what this project is about however. 

I strongly disagree with the statement if Mono PPC doesn't work right
now, today, then you should just give it up. If Mono had the same paid
development staff of the same size that Microsoft has dedicated to .NET
just on Windows, then you might have a legitimate gripe. 

I hear a lot of sour grapes here, a lot of glass is half empty. I
predict that two or three years from now you'll look back to this time
and wonder why you were worried at all. And if you need Mono to run
reliably on MacOSX before then, well, like you said...you need to run
Windows (or, increasingly, with each passing day, Mono/Linux). 

I rarely boot back into Windows unless I have to (gaming), and then, as
soon as I am done, it's back to Linux. All of my desktops have both
Fedora and Win2K on them, and they spend 99% of their uptime in Linux.
Not because I am a religious fanatic; I didn't have a single Linux
machine in my business until about 18 months ago, and I only recently
eliminated the last Windows server from the shop. I started in .NET and
C# in the second beta version of VS.NET, and liked it a lot, but did not
care to run it on Windows servers, so until I found out about this
project, and the level of its maturity, I more or less ignored .NET
completely. Now that I can run it in a commercial-license-free
environment, I am far more interested in employing it in our projects. 

You mention beating MS at their own game; MS themselves realize the
reality of the evolutionary path: the actual OS longer will matter in a
matter of a few short years. Businesses care about what it will take to
get the work done, not how it's done, and since the movement is
inexorably moving towards software as a service, and since .NET is a
frontrunning technology towards that end, the fact that it runs on Linux
(and only gets more complete and stable with each CVS commit) means that
no longer will IT departments have to care about what latest-and-
greatest gee-whiz-bang-gizmo Microsoft puts out and expects us to buy:
it simply won't matter. 

In other words, in a Mono-enabled .NET world, Microsoft themselves
ironically become irrelevant. That's why Mono/Linux is important in and
of itself: weaning from the dependency on a single-source vendor for
what admittedly is a desirable technology. 

And best of all, you can still use VS.NET if you wish to develop apps
for Mono/Linux (and other platforms when ready). And even that
dependence is being addressed. 

So for me, and, I would imagine, for a significant portion of those
interested in developing applications under Mono (and for Novell itself,
I believe), it's not a religious fervor that drives this, not a hatred
for Microsoft. It's just the opportunity NOT to have to rely on the
whimsy of Redmond to take care of business, as it were. It's about
freedom, simple as that. 

For me anyway...

Greg


 On x86 hardware, I prefer windows xp/2003. Sorry, I love *nix,
 butlinux doesn't do much for me on x86, especially when x86/
 windowsoffers 100% compatibility and killer dev tools.
 Frankly, there is noreal reason to host asp.net apps under
 apache, when my XP box doesbetter after locking it down. No
 religion here folks, just reality.
 
 I appreciate the new features and the roadmap, but if all mono
 has tooffer is x86/linux stability, then mono has only
 succeeded in doing isproviding a 'free' implementation of
 the .net runtime that runs on thesame commodity hardware that
 a fully supported and commercial versionruns on.
 
 the same hardware. Believeit or not, most windows shops
 adopting .NET don't care about OSlicensing costs or security. 

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Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support

2004-04-11 Thread Erik Dasque

Hi all,

Developing and delivering software like Mono is not an easy task and a complex engineering project. We're committed to delivering Mono 1.0 in June and supporting the Linux x86, MacOS X platforms, have no doubt about that. As you know we also intend to provide support for Solaris and Linux PPC. We're also committed to delivering GTK# 1.0 in this release and SWF by the end of the year.

We are privileged to observe the evolution of Mono on a daily basis. In my previous job, building from the source was something you didn't want to do unless you had to, builds were often broken and unreliable. A good build, one QA could work on, was a rare commodity. Most of us build Mono from CVS everyday with its share of frustration and disillusions but all in all, it often works. My main machine is a Powerbook running MacOS X but I also run Linux PPC, Linux x86 and Windows XP ; I have to because like Miguel, our Ximian engineers and all the good people contributing to Mono, I want to make sure we deliver on our promises. And because I mainly use MacOS X, I harass Miguel everyday about bugs I find. Mono on PPC has been frustrating in the last few weeks but I run 0.31 with some success. Recently, Miguel asked Martin to help out on PPC ; with his involvement in addition to Paolo's and Miguel's, I am confident we'll be successful.

x-tad-smallerErik Dasque
Product Manager for Mono, Ximian.
Office: (+1) 617 613 2009
Cell:(+1) 617 953 9104
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/x-tad-smaller

On Apr 9, 2004, at 1:07 AM, Steve Mentzer wrote:

Sadly, I must agree. The mono team have made excellent progress on bringing PPC into the JIT era but.

On a whim, I decided to install fedora core 1 and build mono. It built and installed without incident. Truly remarkable. I must say that I was impressed. XSP kept crashing, but that is a different story...

On x86 hardware, I prefer windows xp/2003. Sorry, I love *nix, but linux doesn't do much for me on x86, especially when x86/windows offers 100% compatibility and killer dev tools. Frankly, there is no real reason to host asp.net apps under apache, when my XP box does better after locking it down. No religion here folks, just reality.

OS/X and PPC is a different story. This is a situation that is DYING for an x86 crossover platform. Don't talk to me about Java if I wanted java, I wouldn't be using mono or c#.

C++/wxWindows/Qt/GTK/etc... yawn. Once again, I want c#.

Mono on the PPC is painful. There is no *documented*, stable or official GUI toolkit support. Hell, even the core runtime is about as stable as IIS 4. :)

Beyond that, the mono releases are hit and miss. You have about a 75% chance of the build failing or getting the dreaded 'bus error'.

I appreciate the new features and the roadmap, but if all mono has to offer is x86/linux stability, then mono has only succeeded in doing is providing a 'free' implementation of the .net runtime that runs on the same commodity hardware that a fully supported and commercial version runs on.

Mono cannot win if it sticks to the 'linux vs. windows' card. Linux hacks hate MS and C# and .NET. Corporate windows users will be reluctant to adopt linux/mono when they can get a fully supported, commercial version from MS that will run on the same hardware. Believe it or not, most windows shops adopting .NET don't care about OS licensing costs or security. They are interested in RAD. So mono is a little like selling ice cubes to the eskimos.

Now, if mono ran reliably on HPUX, sparc, linux, os/x, windows, *bsd and some other *nix variants, then you would have succeeded in beating MS at their own game. The only argument against .net now is that it isn't cross platform. If mono fills that niche, then the sky is the limit.

No offense to the mono team, but you should either drop support for PPC entirely or actually concentrate on getting it as stable as x86/linux.

Sorry for the long rant guys... its been a long day... :)

Original Message ---
my problem with gtk# personally is that mac os x is not supported.
although you can find people who hacked it together, if you co it
from cvs, and install it, the samples don't work. i don't have a linux
box, only a mac, and i would love to play with mono on it, but it's
been two months now, and i don't feel any closer.

there are also problems with xsp, and sometimes mono doesn't compile
either (i mean cvs version).
regards,

Grudgingly, I have to agree with above statement(s). Mono support for
Mac OS X/ PPC is fragile at best. I even tried to put together a page
on the basic steps (
http://homepage.mac.com/griffincaprio/mono/RunningMonoOnMacOSX.html ),
but I have all but given up trying to maintain that page. This is
because mono not reliable from day to day, release to release, on the
PPC / Mac OS X platform.

I am not saying that running off the CVS tree is the most stable way to
work, but this goes for the releases also. 0.29 worked on the PPC,
0.30 didn't without some major

RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support

2004-04-10 Thread Gregory Junker

I would add that Free software is not free as in free beer. It is
free as in freedom to do what you want with it, and with freedom
comes responsibility.

At first glance, since I have only seen this snippet of his original
post, if urgent Mac OSX support is that important to Mr. Mentzer, then
he could actually lend his support in the form of either evaluating the
source of the problems, fixing the problems himself and submitting
patches, or both.

My $0.02 (which is more than any of us pay to use this software).
Greg

On Fri, 2004-04-09 at 13:32 -0400, Lee Malatesta wrote:
 Steve Mentzer wrote:
   No offense to the mono team, but you should either drop support
   for PPC entirely or actually concentrate on getting it as stable
   as x86/linux.
 
 I think that this is exactly what the good folks on the mono team are 
 doing and I, for one, applaud their efforts. The mono project on the 
 PPC platform has come a long way and it should only continue to get 
 better. Perhaps the work isn't coming along as fast as I would like, 
 but this is mostly true of all software projects I've been interested 
 in whether open or proprietary. Good coding takes time.
 
 Regards,
 
 Lee
 
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RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support

2004-04-10 Thread Eto

One thing to note:

Not everyone has time to contribute to an open source project to fix their
problems.  We have enough things to do as it is to start working on the
stuff that should 'just work' so we can get to the real job at hand.  (:

Also, not everyone has the skill to look through a huge project like mono to
find  fix a problem that they have no idea how it is happening..  or
where.. or why..   and do you really want someone that doesn't know what
they're doing fixing it?  I guess this lays on the foundation of OSS though.

My $0.02.. hehe (:

Cheers,
Curtis.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregory Junker
Sent: April 9, 2004 10:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support

I would add that Free software is not free as in free beer. It is
free as in freedom to do what you want with it, and with freedom
comes responsibility.

At first glance, since I have only seen this snippet of his original
post, if urgent Mac OSX support is that important to Mr. Mentzer, then
he could actually lend his support in the form of either evaluating the
source of the problems, fixing the problems himself and submitting
patches, or both.

My $0.02 (which is more than any of us pay to use this software).
Greg

On Fri, 2004-04-09 at 13:32 -0400, Lee Malatesta wrote:
 Steve Mentzer wrote:
   No offense to the mono team, but you should either drop support
   for PPC entirely or actually concentrate on getting it as stable
   as x86/linux.
 
 I think that this is exactly what the good folks on the mono team are 
 doing and I, for one, applaud their efforts. The mono project on the 
 PPC platform has come a long way and it should only continue to get 
 better. Perhaps the work isn't coming along as fast as I would like, 
 but this is mostly true of all software projects I've been interested 
 in whether open or proprietary. Good coding takes time.
 
 Regards,
 
 Lee
 
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Re: [DotGNU]Re: [Mono-list] I give up

2004-04-09 Thread Norbert Bollow

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Joop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi lists, (hope this does not get mis-understood... I'm not subscribed 
 to any of the non-mono-lists :-( although I maybe should be)
 this problem I have seen with Mono and the other .NET implementations is 
 just the problem the original poster poses. There is not real 
 commitment to/clear road-a-head for/direction in supporting the GUI 
 side of things.

A quick correction here.  The DotGNU project definately has a clear
real commitment to/clear road-a-head for/direction in supporting
the GUI side of things.  Our focus in this area is on the DotGNU
Portable.NET System.Windows.Forms (WinForms) implementation.

I'm in contact with an industry sponsor who is going to fund the
necessary development work for allowing them to run their GUI stuff on
DotGNU.

(I do think that having Qt / KDE bindings from C# is very important too
for strategic reasons.  Hence, even though we don't currently have the
manpower to work on this, I want to strongly encourage all efforts in
this direction, be it by helping marcusU on Qt# or by independant
efforts.)

Greetings, Norbert.

- -- 
Founder  Steering Committee member of DotGNU, see http://dotgnu.org/
Free Software Business Strategy Guide   ---  http://FreeStrategy.info
Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland)
Tel +41 1 972 20 59Fax +41 1 972 20 69   http://norbert.ch
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